Phil Jackson - OVERRATED

[sammietheboss]

Originally Posted by RiceBaLLer2

johnny bach doesn't think so...


So my dad and I had dinner last night with former Bulls assistant coach Johnny Bach.  86 years old.  Sharp as a nail. Definitely one of the coolest experiences.  This guy’s knowledge about basketball and everything else is insane. Completely old school.  So instead of trying to remember stories to tell all of you, I figured I’d put it in an email – that way not to forget and get into very good detail. 

Johnny Bach personal file – Has been married 3 times.  He has 5 sons with his first wife.  Once the kids were all out of the house they didn’t get along.  He was married to a flight attendant for a short time but then realized all he was doing was taking care of her kids while she was flying around the world.  That ended quickly.  Now, he is married to a woman 31 years younger.  She is the top medical malpractice lawyer for Clifford, a top Law firm in Chicago.  Both divorces took him for pretty much all he was worth.  Needless to say, big Lar picked up the tab. 

He was in the navy and served with many Marines in WW2.  He had a twin brother that was killed at age 19 in the war…lost at sea.  Loved that big Lar was a marine.  Lots of crazy stories about that.  He coached with or against just about every legend in coaching history.  He got out of the college game because he hated the blatant cheating that went on.  Frank Maquire even told him one time he would never accept a job unless he knew he had $200,000 in cash for him to available at all times. 

He grew up in Brooklyn, playing against the Brooklyn Rens while growing up.  An all black team from Harlem.  He was one of the only white guys that would play against them.  Kareem Abdul Jabbar is writing a book on the Rens.  Johnny had a picture of the team that Kareem did not have.  Kareem really appreciated this and has become great friends with Johnny, even though he wouldn’t give Johnny the time of day when Johnny tried to recruit him to Fordham vs. UCLA.  He also now paints in his spare time and is evidently very good.  He paints pictures for fallen marines’ families at the request of a medal of honor winner that he is friends with. 

Here’s some Johnny Bach stories: He coached with the Bulls for the first three titles before he had a disagreement.   After the third championship the Bulls had one more season in the Stadium before moving to the UC.  Krause told Johnny, Tex, and Jim Clemons that the three of them would all get extensions before the team went to the new stadium for the 94-95 season.  After the Bulls lost to the Knicks in 94, the Hue Hollins game as Johnny referred to it.  There was a meeting 10 days after the season.  All the coaches and management were in the room.  Krause wanted to trade Scottie Pippen.  He said he quit on the team and they didn’t want him around anymore.  Johnny was the supreme voice against trading Scottie.  He said he made a mistake, we all make mistakes.  Krause wanted to put it to a vote – trading Pippen.  Johnny called out everyone in the room saying, “if this needs to be put to a vote you’re all idiots.

 

[johnnyredstorm]

Story #1 – The day before game 4 of the Bulls Suns finals with the Bulls leading the series 2-1.  Michael and Charles Barkley went golfing.  They played 48 holes of golf.  And Michael bought Charles a $20,000 diamond earring.  Johnny asked MJ, “what did you do all that for?

 

[DownByLaw]

Originally Posted by sammietheboss

I stopped reading after pippen was a thug

 . My man pippen was maa soft

  

You know Pippen personally or are you just talking out of your %@%?

  

 

[ag 47]

Originally Posted by dland24

Anytime someone makes a thread that says ______ is overrated, it doesnt end well.

Because it's usually exaggerated. Like this thread for example...the coach with 11 rings is overrated? I didn't even read the OP, but I'm sure his argument has
something to do with Phil having Mike and Kobe/Shaq and etc...like Jerry Sloan never had Stockton/Malone or Popovich never had Duncan/Robinson.

 

[grittyman20]

Rolaholic wrote:
When it comes down to it,he's in the upper echelon of Basketball coaches with Red Auerbach
Phil and Red both coached the most talented teams in the leagues during their tenures.

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

I can imagine if Mike ever really got at Madonna going at it like it was game 7 of the finals.
And I know he never played in a game 7.
Bottom line is those 2 dudes were so competitive with each other it is still funny 20 years later.  
So Krause wanted Pippen gone since 1994?
Dont get me wrong that Tmac deal might have been decent long term, but that power struggle took years off the dynasty imo

 

[kvsm23vs24]

Originally Posted by AG 47

Originally Posted by dland24

Anytime someone makes a thread that says ______ is overrated, it doesnt end well.

Because it's usually exaggerated. Like this thread for example...the coach with 11 rings is overrated? I didn't even read the OP, but I'm sure his argument has
something to do with Phil having Mike and Kobe/Shaq and etc...like Jerry Sloan never had Stockton/Malone or Popovich never had Duncan/Robinson.

pippen/Mj and Kobe/Shaq >>>> any duos. It aint even close

 

[fearless]

yawn

 

[antbanks81]

OP, I think you should close this one down. Phil is the real deal. If it were all about coaching talen, the Heat wouldn't have had the struggles it did. Phil has 11 chips in 20 years coaching. He did indeed make moves that led his teams to June year in and year out. Everyone is not capable of managing talent the way he did. The end of his career is ugly to say the least, but you can't deny his accomplishments.

 

[westcoastsfinest]

did jordan, shaq, kobe and pippen win championships before phil got there? 

antbanks81 has it on point.   

11 championships, 11 a coach. 1 for every finger and 1 toe!

 NO ONE CAN DENY THAT!

if anything jordan, kobe, pippen and shaq were overrated because they had phil

 
phil is the ultimate winner

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler [+]

Spoiler

 

[kvsm23vs24]

Lets see if the lakers can win a ring without Phil.
If Kobe can win one without him it'd be

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by kvsm23vs24

Lets see if the lakers can win a ring without Phil.
If Kobe can win one without him it'd be

NO..... If Kobe can win one as the lead guy with out Phil it would completely validate the idea and concept that Kobe is the second greatest player ever.
Thats how much doing it w/o Phil could mean for Kobe.
It literally has to be his goal. I think he should shut his mouth the whole season, have his wife and kids in Italy, pillage every piece of poon he can get. Then I want him to not practice the first 60 games of the season. Practice the last 20 or so. Then he needs to be Kobe Bean Bryant again.
After that retire, invest and buy a team and micro manage it.


  

 

[licensed to ball]

Originally Posted by Deuce King

Laker fans still looking for a scapegoat to blame their season on.............

.  I love it!!

Where are these Laker fans you speak of? None of us are looking for any scapegoats or have made any complaints about anything related to basketball in this thread. 

It's okay though, i'll give you what you are looking for:

"

."

 

[luxurious24]

i need cliffs

 

[noblekane]

Originally Posted by Rolaholic

I feel that he's overrated in the sense that some people are calling him the greatest coach in sports history just cause he's retiring 

.

When it comes down to it,he's in the upper echelon of Basketball coaches with Red Auerbach

no he is the greatest. red auerbach was a bitter old man. i was glad when phil surpassed dude. hes been the greatest since he passed red arrogantbach...

smh at anyone calling jackson overrated. hes a coach. he coaches players to win titles. 11 to be exact.

dudes talking about the talent he had

what great coach didnt have great talent??? let your hate for the lakers go... its clouding your thinking...

 

[CP1708]

Didn't Phil also win a title as coach in the CBA? 

 

I mean, where he goes, rings follow.  Regardless of players. 

 

[addictedtofreshkicks]

IMO, coaching in general is overrated. What matters most is the players on the team. If your team sucks, its because the players suck. If your team is great, its because the players are great. Coaches in all sports get too much credit when their team wins and they also get too much of the blame when their team sucks.

 

[tonyreali]

Phil Jackson is the greatest coach in the history of Sports... Not just basketball.

 

[nako xl]

 

[dmncn lew]

I don't care how many rings he has - all I know is he had Shaq, Kobe, Karl Malone, and the Glove and got ambushed by the Pistons. Not to mention the team this year should have won 63-67 games!

 

[2o6]

nobody talks about



pat riley

magic
kareem
wade
shaq
worthy


greg pop -

duncan
robinson
ginobli
parker

05 pistons had 4 players named to the all star game................THAT YEAR


bad boy pistons had 3 hall of famers...............

08 had 3 hall of famers......maybe 4 when its said and done




how come nobody talks about them.....



oh



CAUSE THEY DONT HAVE 11 RINGS

 

[rashi]

Originally Posted by AddictedToFreshKicks

IMO, coaching in general is overrated. What matters most is the players on the team. If your team sucks, its because the players suck. If your team is great, its because the players are great. Coaches in all sports get too much credit when their team wins and they also get too much of the blame when their team sucks.

If it wasn't for Phil, Kobe and Shaq would've killed each other.

 

[illwill24]

I think hes smart for having the right people around him, like his coaching staff and his players, and no one can dispute his record and rings, but I just think he's overrated with all the talent he had around him. I also don't think he did a good job with handling the players on his rosters. Shaq didn't have the public outlashes with Penny even though it was known they weren't the best of friends. Dennis Rodman wasn't acting up like he did in Chicago when he was in Detroit or San Antonio. Artest had the thing in Detroit, but I never seen him lay a guy out like he did Barrera in Indiana or Chicago. I just felt like when the pressure was on he didn't come through. When he slapped Gasol on the chest in game 3 it didn't help matters. I mean, Riley wouldn't go for that stuff when he was in LA. Daly wouldn't go for that when he was in Detroit. Pop wouldn't go for that in San Antonio. Rivers wouldn't go for that in Boston, etc. I just think for all the talent he had around him if he's supposed to be the best coach of all time he would have handled things better.

 

[CP1708]

Riley, Daly, Pop, Rivers have had some of the great players of all time on their teams.  12 rings 40 something years or so. 

Phil 11 rings, 20 years. 

Not sure if I care what Riley, Daly, Pop, and Rivers "wouldn't go for" 

 

[dathbgboy]

Originally Posted by gangsta207therevolution

Originally Posted by illwill24

Yeah I said it.


After watching this Laker team crumble before my very eyes this month, I can't help but to think, what did the coach do to allow this?  Whatever the reason for the sweep, I saw the Lakers break down mentally, emotionally, and even defensively.  I know this was his last season, but listening to him on the postgame interview, he sounded like he couldn't wait for the season to be over. 

So everyone is looking back at his career and all the championships.  No one can deny that, but look at the talent he's had in his career.  He had Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe in their PRIMES when he won those rings, and three of those four players are in the top ten best players ever.  He had Tex Winters, the guy who invented the triangle offense, next to him on the bench every year.  Matter of fact, he passed last year and Jackson went this year without Winters, and we see how the season went without him, God rest his soul.

Despite the HOF players on his roster, he has made some dumb decisions with the players he's had on his teams.  Remember when Scottie Pippen sat out the final play of the game vs. the Knicks because he ran  a play for Toni Kukoc?  Or how about his eye for hidden talent, guys like Smush Parker, Sasha Vujacic and Kwame Brown?  These are guys Phil himself vouched for.  Hell, he even called a guy from the NBDL for his playoff roster this year, Terrico Brown.  He's never really developed any players that weren't eventual Hall of Famers in his career.  Remember how Toni Kukoc was supposed to be the next great Euro player?  Or who can forget the Luke Walton project?  Hey, Phil drafted him so there must be some potential there!

This guy has openly thrown his players under the bus numerous times.  I don't see how a coach and a leader can talk down on HIS OWN PLAYERS to the media, and people can be cool about it.  I remember when Shaq and Kobe were going through it, Phil actually wrote a BOOK about how Kobe was a cancer to the team, and then tried to make amends after he rejoined the team in 2006.  His team totally broke down this year in the playoffs, and while no one is defending Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum for their actions, it's up to the coach to discipline his players, if the players act up, that's a bad look on the coach.

I wrote this post because while Phil Jackson is leaving, I see the Celtics re-signed Doc Rivers.  I think Doc Rivers is a helluva coach, and he has gotten the most out of his players, talent and effort-wise.  You see one of his proteges, Tom Thibodeau, on his way to the finals.  You even see Scott Brooks on the Thunder, Lionel Hollins almost make it to the West finals without their best player, and even Doug Collins, fresh off the broadcast booth, take a young team to the playoffs.  None of these teams coasted to the playoffs, no "switch" needed to be turned on, just hard nosed basketball, night in and night out.

So I say all that to say this:  Phil Jackson is overrated, and if he didn't take up teams with multiple Hall of Famers, I doubt he would have won a fraction of the rings he won.  What do you think?

Any Clapping.gif


I def feel u about Phil lovin big PGs, I used to beat myself in the head wonderin why he started Ron over Steve.