\\ Post Your Car vol. Been a minute //

[MrClean510]

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[bigslim773]

The new 4Runner/Tacoma is gonna be a beast I bet. I was looking the other day and just couldn’t justify paying 45k+ knowing what’s around the corner.

TOYOTA DOES NOTHING BEASTLY HONESTLY(TUNDRA OWNER). .

THE NEW SEQUOIA IS IDENTICAL TO THE NEW TUNDRA(MINUS THE BED OBVIOUSLY), NO ORIGINALITY. BORING.

SO I HIGHLY DOUBT THEY DO ANYTHING GROUNDBREAKING FOR THE 4RUNNER & TACOMA.

 

[mplsdunk]

Beast might have been a stretch.

I’m excited to see the new engines for the taco/4Runner.

 

[picasso swerve]

I hate the new Teggy. Only cause it pays no homage design wise to the old one, cept what the INTEGRA stamp on the back bumper. Its really just a rebadged ILX if were being a buck.

 

[05fordgt]

^Wow ..guy typing novels.
I have too short of an attention span to get through any of his posts.

You should read them. Guy has more knowledge and inside info in the automotive business than all of us combined on here (and I sold cars for 23+ years). You may actually learn something.

 

[andretti]

Oh yeah, heres the Gypsy Rose (ll) in the vault of the Peterson auto museum

 

[ALNotSure]

Always had a crush on the current S6. Even with most options it’s under 200k. But this header image kills me with the wheels turned like that lol.

 

[plansb]

Didn’t know Santa was hemi gang

 

[zmaqbool]

Didn’t know Santa was hemi gang

He's been #HemiGang. Couple of years ago they had a Hellcat giveaway promotion where you'd have to figure out some scientific & mathematical formulas...don't know if anyone ever won that. Commercials had Bill Goldberg in em.

 

[ALNotSure]

New set from NOVITEC… that their widebody N-Largo

 

[picasso swerve]

Kit looks trash af tbh.

 

[design]

Look again I totally understand the business case or lack of a business case for coupes or even sedans and wagons. Heck even why certain colors are not offered due to low sales. So not completely disagreeing on the why’s of a manufacturer skipping coupes.

The coupes you listed are profitable. How can you say they are not profitable? The 86/BRZ sold over 200k worldwide in its first generation, considered a great success and why a second generation came.

The LC has met demand worldwide and a refresh is coming.

The 911 and Boxster have high profit margins. The 911 in particular the largest in the industry.

etc etc…

Obviously in todays space it’s not even sedans people want. Any type of crossover sells and we have seen an explosion of “coupe” (i:e ugly lifted crossovers) versions and performance ones. Sedan sales continue to drop. We have witnesses the CR-V become Hondas best seller and the Rav-4 become Toyotas best seller. The Accord and Camry held that for two decades. But if you look at sales figures and percentages the Camry has held much stronger than the Accord which some will argue is the better car. The Camry and Accord used to sell near equally and now the Camry outsells it almost 2-1. Something is amiss at Honda.

With all that manufacturers that actually care about enthusiasts know that tiny group is key for a brand’s connection to youthfulness and coolness. The cayenne might have saved Porsche but the 911 drives the company and its image. A larger suv is coming to fill needs but the Taycan is what people aspire too and want. For Lexus the RX is by far their best seller but cars like the LC, RC F and IS 500 help with image and youthful admiration. The Civic Type-R drives Honda’s coolness, not a CR-V. etc etc

The bottom line to me is Honda and Acura sales are down 34-37% whereas the industry is down much less or even growing. An Integra coupe done correctly IMO would have helped image and sales. That is what people were craving. No one asked for a 4 door. They should have then just kept it named as an ILX. It is perplexing their product planners are that disconnected from the market.

I’ve addressed profitably but let me state this again:

The Toyota/Subaru, even the Toyota/BMW are shared parts products. That lowers cost per unit. There are far fewer partnerships in other spaces/vehicle classes, for obvious reasons (more profit per unit = less need to enter a potentially complex partnership with another OEM).

And for every Toyota/Subaru success, there are 2 or 4 400Zs which is absolutely not profitable at their current sales numbers. ‘Ballsy’ isn’t going to pay back loans. Or keep people from getting laid off. Or starve off companies from bankruptcy.

Development costs are higher. Since the industry decided to emulate BMW 20 years ago for a sporty product you need:

Track development.
Higher stress test parts.
Variable suspensions/exhaust systems.
Aero development (downforce).
Thermal/drivetrain management.

And now, add the development of crash testing, certification etc of a separate product that requires the above and will sell in far lower numbers? The very ‘bean counters’ are the folks you need to work with to have a product approved for production. But image and historical reference is important by your own admission:

I specifically asked you about Cadillac for a reason. If ‘image’ amongst ‘enthusiasts’ is the reason why Honda/Acura has its issues, then Cadillac is right along side with it.

So Cadillac hit those exact marks (2 door, enthusiast products with controls that exceed or meet the benchmarks for ‘enthusiasts’ with a 15% discount) throughout its gestation-the response is ‘nobody is checking for Cadillac’ - i.e. check back in 15 years or 3 product cycles until the public approves my choice etc.

So $1.5 billion or so until this highly irrational group of buyers who’s influence is highly questionable might come around and consider your product. This isn’t a substantial model from the business standpoint.

Most of these products (outside of the upper end models, which I’ve already addressed) are older for a reason. It’s because they have to run two or more product cycles with refreshes to start generating profit. Unlike their SUV/CUV counterparts.

I’ve already addressed the upper end of the coupe spectrum a number of times, including in my original response-the 911 and a Civic coupe aren’t remotely the same in profit generating (Porsche made more money alone in customization than Honda made in 2 door Civic sales).
Funny you mentioned Kia/Hyundai vs Honda. So while the N line stuff is fun, the larger SUVs and even EVs are outselling their Honda counterparts by a large margin. None of those products currently have a ‘N’ offering. If your speculating that buyers walk into a Kia dealer and are looking for a Kona N and leave with a telluride, then OK.

Or it can be the Korean marquees are nailing quality, design, warranty, and pricing vs their Japanese counterparts, and in Hondas case, offering a more compelling SUV lineup. At the end, these are just products and most of the buying public only begins to care about ‘image’ vs a certain price point.

 

[design]

Kit looks trash af tbh.

Super car body kits are always a challenge to execute.

 

[MakeNTGreatAgain]

I’ve addressed profitably but let me state this again:

The Toyota/Subaru, even the Toyota/BMW are shared parts products. That lowers cost per unit. There are far fewer partnerships in other spaces/vehicle classes, for obvious reasons (more profit per unit = less need to enter a potentially complex partnership with another OEM).

And for every Toyota/Subaru success, there are 2 or 4 400Zs which is absolutely not profitable at their current sales numbers. ‘Ballsy’ isn’t going to pay back loans. Or keep people from getting laid off. Or starve off companies from bankruptcy.

Development costs are higher. Since the industry decided to emulate BMW 20 years ago for a sporty product you need:

Track development.
Higher stress test parts.
Variable suspensions/exhaust systems.
Aero development (downforce).
Thermal/drivetrain management.

And now, add the development of crash testing, certification etc of a separate product that requires the above and will sell in far lower numbers? The very ‘bean counters’ are the folks you need to work with to have a product approved for production. But image and historical reference is important by your own admission:

I specifically asked you about Cadillac for a reason. If ‘image’ amongst ‘enthusiasts’ is the reason why Honda/Acura has its issues, then Cadillac is right along side with it.

So Cadillac hit those exact marks (2 door, enthusiast products with controls that exceed or meet the benchmarks for ‘enthusiasts’ with a 15% discount) throughout its gestation-the response is ‘nobody is checking for Cadillac’ - i.e. check back in 15 years or 3 product cycles until the public approves my choice etc.

So $1.5 billion or so until this highly irrational group of buyers who’s influence is highly questionable might come around and consider your product. This isn’t a substantial model from the business standpoint.

Most of these products (outside of the upper end models, which I’ve already addressed) are older for a reason. It’s because they have to run two or more product cycles with refreshes to start generating profit. Unlike their SUV/CUV counterparts.

I’ve already addressed the upper end of the coupe spectrum a number of times, including in my original response-the 911 and a Civic coupe aren’t remotely the same in profit generating (Porsche made more money alone in customization than Honda made in 2 door Civic sales).
Funny you mentioned Kia/Hyundai vs Honda. So while the N line stuff is fun, the larger SUVs and even EVs are outselling their Honda counterparts by a large margin. None of those products currently have a ‘N’ offering. If your speculating that buyers walk into a Kia dealer and are looking for a Kona N and leave with a telluride, then OK.

Or it can be the Korean marquees are nailing quality, design, warranty, and pricing vs their Japanese counterparts, and in Hondas case, offering a more compelling SUV lineup. At the end, these are just products and most of the buying public only begins to care about ‘image’ vs a certain price point.

You nailed it on the head

 

[design]

Very well said. And for all of acuras marketing, most sold will look like this turd with a cvt transmission. No one asked for this.

point taken.

For reference-I think Acura dropped the ball a long time ago and was a victim of the field when it was introduced:

Cadillac was making FWD rebadged Chevrolets.

The Germans outside of Audi would never consider a FWD entry level product.

Hyundai was a rung above public transport.

Dodge was remixing K cars/making cab forward large sedans with questionable
quality.

Fast forward to today, and the field looks a lot different. Honda really got lazy-the reusing of windshield hard points to cheapen manufacturing was all I needed to know back in the mid 2000s-and the field caught up to the ‘power drivers seat, driving dynamics, leather, sound system’ and 2X that formula.

Looking at some of those brands, and the cash reserves and resources at their disposal, this outcome would probably been inevitable. But Honda hasn’t helped its case in that regard.

 

[ALNotSure]

point taken.

For reference-I think Acura dropped the ball a long time ago and was a victim of the field when it was introduced:

Cadillac was making FWD rebadged Chevrolets.

The Germans outside of Audi would never consider a FWD entry level product.

Hyundai was a rung above public transport.

Dodge was remixing K cars/making cab forward large sedans with questionable
quality.

Fast forward to today, and the field looks a lot different. Honda really got lazy-the reusing of windshield hard points to cheapen manufacturing was all I needed to know back in the mid 2000s-and the field caught up to the ‘power drivers seat, driving dynamics, leather, sound system’ and 2X that formula.

Looking at some of those brands, and the cash reserves and resources at their disposal, this outcome would probably been inevitable. But Honda hasn’t helped its case in that regard.

One way or the other I always enjoy your posts. Respect

 

[design]

One way or the other I always enjoy your posts. Respect

Likewise!

 

[picasso swerve]

People had faith in the Integra like Acura didnt butcher the NSX.

 

[05fordgt]

People had faith in the Integra like Acura didnt butcher the NSX.

The thing with the NSX, and most get this totally wrong, is it was NEVER supposed to be a modern version of the OG. Not in the slightest. It was always supposed to be a car that would demonstrate Acura's highest technology (hybrid). A Halo car. People I have talked to, who own them, LOVE THEM! Comfortable, VERY quick, and in the right colors (the blue especially) very sharp. Though the Type S is FAR better looking than the regular model (much more aggressive looking with then upgraded bumper and all the extra carbon). I like them. Would I buy one? Nope, but I do like them.

 

[picasso swerve]

The thing with the NSX, and most get this totally wrong, is it was NEVER supposed to be a modern version of the OG. Not in the slightest. It was always supposed to be a car that would demonstrate Acura's highest technology (hybrid). A Halo car. People I have talked to, who own them, LOVE THEM! Comfortable, VERY quick, and in the right colors (the blue especially) very sharp. Though the Type S is FAR better looking than the regular model (much more aggressive looking with then upgraded bumper and all the extra carbon). I like them. Would I buy one? Nope, but I do like them.

Then slap a different name on it.

 

[design]

The thing with the NSX, and most get this totally wrong, is it was NEVER supposed to be a modern version of the OG. Not in the slightest. It was always supposed to be a car that would demonstrate Acura's highest technology (hybrid). A Halo car. People I have talked to, who own them, LOVE THEM! Comfortable, VERY quick, and in the right colors (the blue especially) very sharp. Though the Type S is FAR better looking than the regular model (much more aggressive looking with then upgraded bumper and all the extra carbon). I like them. Would I buy one? Nope, but I do like them.

Astute observation. Two things:

The issue with relaunching icons are that almost nothing is going to satisfy the public others then a complete homage design (See 5th gen Camaro) .

To your exact point, the NSX was meant to be a halo car, in a sector (supercars) that has moved on considerably from the time when the original NSX was launched. The cab forward, lightweight, slim A pillared design ethos would actually be more of a Cayman/Lotus competitor at this point in PP theory.

That approach wasn't going to work in the volumes (small) that this bespoke platform would demand, so I get the conclusion. (Tech bed + higher ATPs = profit in smaller volumes-a conclusion Nissan came to when developing the R35)

But to @ picasso swerve POV-having such a radical departure from the former approach can be a bit confusing-one could argue that having a clear statement in execution/different nameplate could have helped here; I see both sides.

Ironically enough, the C8 Z06, while very American, has a just a bit of the original NSX 'spirit' in it IMHO.

 

[05fordgt]

Then slap a different name on it.

I don't disagree with you. But you and I and a hell of a lot of other people agree that the name has value, hence they did what they did.

Hell, look at GM. I said they would eventually have a Corvette SUV and I was right. SUV & a sedan, electric. It's all about marketing and having value in a name.

 

[05fordgt]

Astute observation. Two things:

The issue with relaunching icons are that almost nothing is going to satisfy the public others then a complete homage design (See 5th gen Camaro) .

To your exact point, the NSX was meant to be a halo car, in a sector (supercars) that has moved on considerably from the time when the original NSX was launched. The cab forward, lightweight, slim A pillared design ethos would actually be more of a Cayman/Lotus competitor at this point in PP theory.

That approach wasn't going to work in the volumes (small) that this bespoke platform would demand, so I get the conclusion. (Tech bed + higher ATPs = profit in smaller volumes-a conclusion Nissan came to when developing the R35)

But to @ picasso swerve POV-having such a radical departure from the former approach can be a bit confusing-one could argue that having a clear statement in execution/different nameplate could have helped here; I see both sides.

Ironically enough, the C8 Z06, while very American, has a just a bit of the original NSX 'spirit' in it IMHO.

Very true. Some need to think about what would the reception been like had Honda not names it NSX. It could have would have gotten lost in a sea of supercars with a (insert name) here. Anything generic probably wouldn't have drawn the attention it did with the original name.

What do you mean the Z06 has the "spirit" of the original NSX? I think it's rather pricey with a good amount of options on it. If I had to find a modern car that was the essence of the OG NSX, it was the Evora GT. I've read it in reviews that many have said it (and I believe it now that one is in our garage. It's brilliant).

 

[picasso swerve]

Astute observation. Two things:

The issue with relaunching icons are that almost nothing is going to satisfy the public others then a complete homage design (See 5th gen Camaro) .

To your exact point, the NSX was meant to be a halo car, in a sector (supercars) that has moved on considerably from the time when the original NSX was launched. The cab forward, lightweight, slim A pillared design ethos would actually be more of a Cayman/Lotus competitor at this point in PP theory.

That approach wasn't going to work in the volumes (small) that this bespoke platform would demand, so I get the conclusion. (Tech bed + higher ATPs = profit in smaller volumes-a conclusion Nissan came to when developing the R35)

But to @ picasso swerve POV-having such a radical departure from the former approach can be a bit confusing-one could argue that having a clear statement in execution/different nameplate could have helped here; I see both sides.

Ironically enough, the C8 Z06, while very American, has a just a bit of the original NSX 'spirit' in it IMHO.

I get the halo car thing but you coudve had some nods in the design, like what Toyota did with the MK5 Supra. Headlights are similar to the MK4. Thats all. Theres literally not one design cue that I can see. Maybe you can see something I dont.

 

[plansb]

Who cares what they call it? I swear some “enthusiasts” are never happy. The new nsx is a great car, who gives a **** what they call it?