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ALNotSure · Dec 9, 2022

Every Type S has been an overhyped underwhelming disappointment. Slowest in class, heaviest and worst MPG. Now comes a 50k civic. Weird flex….

People want a coupe as well.

waitwut · Dec 9, 2022

design said:
Acura Integra Type S incoming. This has potential to be a more visually more 'mature' counterpart virtual mechanical twin, the Civic Type R is going to experience. The dealer pricing will be interesting.

looks good but need the camo to come off hopefully they release an integra type r coupe

picasso swerve · Dec 9, 2022

Triple exhaust looks so stupid. Doesnt the Type R have a triple exhaust too? Whoever came up with that and whoever approved it needs jail time. A double exhaust, one on either side is perfect, or quad 2 on each side for a sportier look. I’ll even take a double exhaust in the middle which im not really a huge fan of but its better than 3 in the middle.

ALNotSure · Dec 9, 2022

Some of the cars from PRI yesterday… The carbon Ford GT was nuts!

design · Dec 9, 2022

MikeF said:
Every Type S has been an overhyped underwhelming disappointment. Slowest in class, heaviest and worst MPG. Now comes a 50k civic. Weird flex….

People want a coupe as well.

Again-this is a twin of the upcoming Type R-for budget reasons there will be little mechanical differential between the two. From what I’ve been told, the Type R is an amazing drive.

What the S could potentially avoid is the huge markups of the Type R due to some, um, reputation issues with the brand. So a Type R with different styling without the markup might be an interesting proposition for some potential buyers.

Frankly with the cratering of coupe sales across brands, from a business perspective it’s a minor miracle that you can still buy a smattering of performance oriented 2 doors in the market today. Honda rightfully needed to concentrate on electrification and its UX partnership with Sony vs spending $500 million to retool production, certification etc of a 2 door model (Honda LOST money on the previous gen Civic coupe).

ALNotSure · Dec 9, 2022

design said:
Again-this is a twin of the upcoming Type R-for budget reasons there will be little mechanical differential between the two. From what I’ve been told, the Type R is an amazing drive.

What the S could potentially avoid is the huge markups of the Type R due to some, um, reputation issues with the brand. So a Type R with different styling without the markup might be an interesting proposition for some potential buyers.

Frankly with the cratering of coupe sales across brands, from a business perspective it’s a minor miracle that you can still buy a smattering of performance oriented 2 doors in the market today. Honda rightfully needed to concentrate on electrification and its UX partnership with Sony vs spending $500 million to retool production, certification etc of a 2 door model (Honda LOST money on the previous gen Civic coupe).

Toyota has coupes, Nissan has coupes and so do the domestics and Germans. Hell even Lexus has two coupes. No one asked for 4 door crosstour integra. People wanted a sexy coupe.

Honda is rebadging GM electric vehicles not exactly a strategy.

Look it’s good the CTR is being duplicated here but Acura can’t sell sedans. It’s not like they are flying off shelves. And another fwd sedan for 50k from the brand won’t ignite things. I would just get the CTR which as you stated seems to be an outstanding product (though like the GR Corolla good luck getting one at MSRP)

Kind of sad the most exciting and fastest product from both brands is a Civic.

design · Dec 9, 2022

MikeF said:
Toyota has coupes, Nissan has coupes and so do the domestics and Germans. Hell even Lexus has two coupes. No one asked for 4 door crosstour integra. People wanted a sexy coupe.

Honda is rebadging GM electric vehicles not exactly a strategy.

Look it’s good the CTR is being duplicated here but Acura can’t sell sedans. It’s not like they are flying off shelves. And another fwd sedan for 50k from the brand won’t ignite things. I would just get the CTR which as you stated seems to be an outstanding product (though like the GR Corolla good luck getting one at MSRP)

Kind of sad the most exciting and fastest product from both brands is a Civic.

I’m not referring to the offerings-I’m referencing the business model-and currently the reality is affordable (under $100K coupes that don’t have a Porsche/Mercedes/BMW/Audi emblem) have been slower sellers vs their SUV counterparts-outside of a few outliners.

This isn’t wishful speculation on my part. This is sales and ATP data. The Z was refreshed and is still on a 12 plus year platform. The Toyota/Subaru are platform mates and share high cost parts (glass, doors, etc.).

Lexus-has a high end coupe (see above-more profit) and a older refreshed platform. Same with Dodge. The new Mustang S650 is s heavy refresh of the S550. GM is going electric and 4 doors/2 doors sub brand with the Camaro.

Cadillac dropped its Alpha platform coupe. Uncoupling your obvious personal bias-there is a theme (lower investment in space=conclusion that there is dwindling opportunities for ROI in that space).

Regarding Honda-they are forming a battery and UX partnership with Sony-that is outside of ‘rebranding GM vehicles’-which in actuality is far different than what Subaru/Toyota did with its coupe program ironically-or even what Toyota did with the Supra (BMW partnership-which helped BMW as well with the 4 series coupe development costs-again a theme here) as Honda isn’t sharing any major parts with GM vehicles. They are using the GM EV platforms as a starting point but are heading in its own direction after this first generation. Now if you’d have a bone to pick with Mazdas far murkier EV strategy, for example I’d agree.

Lastly, and for reference, Honda dropped the coupe for its own Civic due to slow sales, which can be an indicator of where the space is headed at that price point.

MakeNTGreatAgain · Dec 9, 2022

picasso swerve said:
Triple exhaust looks so stupid. Doesnt the Type R have a triple exhaust too? Whoever came up with that and whoever approved it needs jail time. A double exhaust, one on either side is perfect, or quad 2 on each side for a sportier look. I’ll even take a double exhaust in the middle which im not really a huge fan of but its better than 3 in the middle.

personally like the different approach

kinda cool

reminds me of the corvettes

05fordgt · Dec 9, 2022

There have been whispers the last few days that something BIG was going to get revealed from Multimatic. And today, they dropped the hammer!! This thing is INSANE!!

Ford GT Mk IV Send-Off Is the Final and Rowdiest Version of All

Only 67 hand-built cars will be made, in honor of the Le Mans–winning 1967 GT Mk IV race car piloted by Americans Dan Gurney and A.J. Foyt.

www.caranddriver.com

$1.7M to start, track only 800hp monster! Crazy aero, stretched wheelbase, aero covers on the wheels. List goes on and on! Only 67 made to give homage to the 1967 Mk IV GT40. A few of these will wind up in collections, but if the way of ordering application is any indication, it's going to hard core people who WILL track these regularly. I'm can think of a few who will (or should get one). Ben Sloss, VP of technology of Google, is a track rat who has a Mk II. Wonder if he's getting one.

Thank you Ford for making the GT. This is a proper way to end the program (the last batch of road cars are getting built now).

What a car that did what it was built to do.

design · Dec 9, 2022

MakeNTGreatAgain said:
personally like the different approach

kinda cool

reminds me of the corvettes

The engineers on both the Corolla GR and Civic Type R have explained that the 3 exhaust approach helps with both a more musical sound and helps dampen drone on the highway.

ALNotSure · Dec 9, 2022

design said:
I’m not referring to the offerings-I’m referencing the business model-and currently the reality is affordable (under $100K coupes that don’t have a Porsche/Mercedes/BMW/Audi emblem) have been slower sellers vs their SUV counterparts-outside of a few outliners.

This isn’t wishful speculation on my part. This is sales and ATP data. The Z was refreshed and is still on a 12 plus year platform. The Toyota/Subaru are platform mates and share high cost parts (glass, doors, etc.).

Lexus-has a high end coupe (see above-more profit) and a older refreshed platform. Same with Dodge. The new Mustang S650 is s heavy refresh of the S550. GM is going electric and 4 doors/2 doors sub brand with the Camaro.

Cadillac dropped its Alpha platform coupe. Uncoupling your obvious personal bias-there is a theme (lower investment in space=conclusion that there is dwindling opportunities for ROI in that space).

Regarding Honda-they are forming a battery and UX partnership with Sony-that is outside of ‘rebranding GM vehicles’-which in actuality is far different than what Subaru/Toyota did with its coupe program ironically-or even what Toyota did with the Supra (BMW partnership-which helped BMW as well with the 4 series coupe development costs-again a theme here) as Honda isn’t sharing any major parts with GM vehicles. They are using the GM EV platforms as a starting point but are heading in its own direction after this first generation. Now if you’d have a bone to pick with Mazdas far murkier EV strategy, for example I’d agree.

Lastly, and for reference, Honda dropped the coupe for its own Civic due to slow sales, which can be an indicator of where the space is headed at that price point.

Being in the industry, I perfectly understand things. The fact is Honda sales and enthusiast image continue to plummet and it’s not all supply issues. This is a company that thrived in the coupe and enthusiast segment. They are completely unhip. The new Accord will have 204hp tops. The CUVs are marketed as fake off road vehicles. Not one coupe. Their top performing vehicle is a civic.

Maybe they should have collaborated with GM on a coupe as well as EV’s. Cause outside the CTR they are not really on enthusiast radars.

I knew the Integra was going to be a 5 door way before it’s release. When the pro Honda media teased rendering images, every single one was a coupe. Not one rendering was a sedan. I watched the disaster going to happen. A good looking coupe or even 3 door would have done wonders for the brand. For 6 months their social media was bombarded with #fixtheintegra posts. Looking at early data the Integra isn’t being bought by young people but old people. Swing and another miss.

I’m sure you have been around like me and we both know the 1990s/2000s GS-R and ITR people wanted was the 3 door. Today their values are off the charts.

And as an enthusiast we need more coupes, period. Also as an enthusiast I am glad an Integra Type S is coming. But I positive people would have been more inclined to buy a coupe or for 50k than another sedan. Especially as the TLX struggles at 50k.

design · Dec 9, 2022

MikeF said:
Being in the industry, I perfectly understand things. The fact is Honda sales and enthusiast image continue to plummet and it’s not all supply issues. This is a company that thrived in the coupe and enthusiast segment. They are completely unhip. The new Accord will have 204hp tops. The CUVs are marketed as fake off road vehicles. Not one coupe. Their top performing vehicle is a civic.

Maybe they should have collaborated with GM on a coupe as well as EV’s. Cause outside the CTR they are not really on enthusiast radars.

I knew the Integra was going to be a 5 door way before it’s release. When the pro Honda media teased rendering images, every single one was a coupe. Not one rendering was a sedan. I watched the disaster going to happen. A good looking coupe or even 3 door would have done wonders for the brand. For 6 months their social media was bombarded with #fixtheintegra posts. Looking at early data the Integra isn’t being bought by young people but old people. Swing and another miss.

I’m sure you have been around like me and we both know the 1990s/2000s GS-R and ITR people wanted was the 3 door. Today their values are off the charts.

And as an enthusiast we need more coupes, period. Also as an enthusiast I am glad an Integra Type S is coming. But I positive people would have been more inclined to buy a coupe or for 50k than another sedan. Especially as the TLX struggles at 50k.

Then I'm not sure what the exception here is-other than the fact that the general public, who pays the bills in an over leveraged industry by nature have moved on from coupes, which I agree with-but that doesn't change what the current reality in the market place is. The fact is 'enthusiasts' really haven't kept the lights on at manufactures- on most spaces-and that high profit vehicles (SUVs, CUVs and the like) are the priority all most OEMs.

I clearly stated that this is the car business - which by definition, dictates that a company generates profits. And while that reskinned Accord or CR-V might not be on any 12 year olds wall-the fact is a RWD convertible successor isn't going to generate the kind of capital that is needed in the current business climate.

If you expand that data-I'd love to know what the spread is among age groups vs their peers regarding the Integr- interestingly enough Cadillac had the same issues despite providing essentially an overlay E36 with a 6 speed manual coupe regarding age demographics with its ATS coupe.

Such is business-its hard to recapture the market once you've let it go. So I'm not sure any thing will 'fix' the brand short term, but exercises like these are a least a nod to 'enthusiasts' who frankly will choose to ignore a product (again see most RWD Cadillacs-hell even the latest gen Camaro) if it doesn't hit certain impossible to meet parameters in retrospect. Such is bias which I've already addressed earlier.

Or, you can make high roofed CUVs on FWD platforms, generate profit almost immediately. I'm not sure why this isn't an obvious choice, as I said in the 'Business' part of product sales.

For reference YTD sales data as of October for coupes/sportscars:

Lexus LC 993 units (down over 58%)
Mazda Miata 4571 units (down almost 50%)
Mercedes SL 823 units (up almost 80%)
Nissan Z (new model) 86 units (up 30%)
Nissan GT-R 56 units (down almost 62%)
Porsche 911 7411 units (up 11%)
Porsche Boxster/Cayman 2426 units (down 23.3%)
Toyota Supra 3855 units (down 33.8%)
Toyota GR83 (new model) 9691 units (up 820%)
Subaru BR-Z(new model) 2420 units (up almost 250%)

So while the 'car guys' in product planning can hand wave away the reasons why they need $400 million to develop a new 2 door (allegedly the cost of the new Z-which isn't going over well) sales are what they are. We can hope for a rebirth moving forward, but electrification and UX development has had to take precedent if these brands are to survive, (or as I stated earlier, move upmarket as GM did with the new Corvette) as the broader public as voted with their wallets, fortunately/unfortunately depending on your POV.

ALNotSure · Dec 9, 2022

design said:
Then I'm not sure what the exception here is-other than the fact that the general public, who pays the bills in an over leveraged industry by nature have moved on from coupes, which I agree with-but that doesn't change what the current reality in the market place is. The fact is 'enthusiasts' really haven't kept the lights on at manufactures- on most spaces-and that high profit vehicles (SUVs, CUVs and the like) are the priority all most OEMs.

I clearly stated that this is the car business - which by definition, dictates that a company generates profits. And while that reskinned Accord or CR-V might not be on any 12 year olds wall-the fact is a RWD convertible successor isn't going to generate the kind of capital that is needed in the current business climate.

If you expand that data-I'd love to know what the spread is among age groups vs their peers regarding the Integr- interestingly enough Cadillac had the same issues despite providing essentially an overlay E36 with a 6 speed manual coupe regarding age demographics with its ATS coupe.

Such is business-its hard to recapture the market once you've let it go. So I'm not sure any thing will 'fix' the brand short term, but exercises like these are a least a nod to 'enthusiasts' who frankly will choose to ignore a product (again see most RWD Cadillacs-hell even the latest gen Camaro) if it doesn't hit certain impossible to meet parameters in retrospect. Such is bias which I've already addressed earlier.

Or, you can make high roofed CUVs on FWD platforms, generate profit almost immediately. I'm not sure why this isn't an obvious choice, as I said in the 'Business' part of product sales.

For reference YTD sales data as of October for coupes/sportscars:

Lexus LC 993 units (down over 58%)
Mazda Miata 4571 units (down almost 50%)
Mercedes SL 823 units (up almost 80%)
Nissan Z (new model) 86 units (up 30%)
Nissan GT-R 56 units (down almost 62%)
Porsche 911 7411 units (up 11%)
Porsche Boxster/Cayman 2426 units (down 23.3%)
Toyota Supra 3855 units (down 33.8%)
Toyota GR83 (new model) 9691 units (up 820%)
Subaru BR-Z(new model) 2420 units (up almost 250%)

So while the 'car guys' in product planning can hand wave away the reasons why they need $400 million to develop a new 2 door (allegedly the cost of the new Z-which isn't going over well) sales are what they are. We can hope for a rebirth moving forward, but electrification and UX development has had to take precedent if these brands are to survive, (or as I stated earlier, move upmarket as GM did with the C8 as the broader public as voted with their wallets, fortunately/unfortunately depending on your POV.

You just listed a bunch of coupes. So kudos to those brands interested in enthusiasts. If we do just what beancounters want we will all be stuck driving a white HR-V. I’m well aware of the business case. Toyota figured it out since their lineup in the 2000s looked like Hondas now. Boring. It’s obvious through vehicles like the ones you mentioned there is a market for coupes. I understand a coupe has a fighting battle to make it to market but surprised you are agreeing to just listen to accountants. Honda didn’t help it’s case making the last generation Civic ugly, slow and uncompetitive. Toyota and Suburu obviously figured it out.

Cadillac with all the manuals and superb driving vehicles is unfortunately still a Cadillac. And the general public ignored them. Lexus fights this same image battle with their performance lineup. They both have stubbornly stuck it out and I applaud both with that uphill battle,

Honda is a profitable machine with a pretty rabid fanbase and it’s shocking they can’t figure out how to sell coupes. Meanwhile their sedan sales are dying too. They continue to miss the mark and Hyundai and Kia are eating their lunch. Sadly they don’t offer any coupes either.

Nissan we know is in dire financial straits and the Z is a heavy refresh off existing mechanicals. They still had the balls to bring it to the market. Kudos to them.

As an enthusiast, we need more coupes. :smile:

picasso swerve · Dec 9, 2022

Last gen Civic was great whatcha talking about. The 2 gens before that were terrible.

design · Dec 9, 2022

MikeF said:
You just listed a bunch of coupes. So kudos to those brands interested in enthusiasts. If we do just what beancounters want we will all be stuck driving a white HR-V. I’m well aware of the business case. Toyota figured it out since their lineup in the 2000s looked like Hondas now. Boring. It’s obvious through vehicles like the ones you mentioned there is a market for coupes. I understand a coupe has a fighting battle to make it to market but surprised you are agreeing to just listen to accountants. Honda didn’t help it’s case making the last generation Civic ugly, slow and uncompetitive. Toyota and Suburu obviously figured it out.

Cadillac with all the manuals and superb driving vehicles is unfortunately still a Cadillac. And the general public ignored them. Lexus fights this same image battle with their performance lineup. They both have stubbornly stuck it out and I applaud both with that uphill battle,

Honda is a profitable machine with a pretty rabid fanbase and it’s shocking they can’t figure out how to sell coupes. Meanwhile their sedan sales are dying too. They continue to miss the mark and Hyundai and Kia are eating their lunch. Sadly they don’t offer any coupes either.

Nissan we know is in dire financial straits and the Z is a heavy refresh off existing mechanicals. They still had the balls to bring it to the market. Kudos to them.

As an enthusiast, we need more coupes.

Again, preaching to the choir. My only point is for the very survival of the industry-any 'enthusiast' efforts shouldn't be overlooked in this current climate.

The Webster meaning

plural noun: enthusiasts

a person who is very interested in a particular activity or subject.

I listed a bunch of coupes that aren't profitable at their current sales numbers. Less than 10,000K in sales for almost all projects at those price points are losing money.

To your point So despite that the Cadillac is a fine drivers car-with steering and controls better than most modern BMWs-we are talking about image correct? Or is it driving enjoyment in which none of that crap actually matters? (What I would think an 'enthusiasts' POV would be-but purely isn't as again, a brand has so thread a needle to sell 10K.-i.e. great steering, handling, controls, -what we ask for along with reliability but ehhh that badge!) Not great.

Once again, I'm not agreeing with accountants-but is this the auto business or a business that should cater to your particular set of needs? I've acknowledged that you obviously have a personal bias, but taking the accountants POV ironically gives someone like you the opportunity to enjoy the very products you are championing. I'm sure how/why that's debatable (?)

Toyotas very approach you are talking about helped grow/build up the cash reserves to pay for the very enthusiasts products you are referencing.

My exact is that driving excitement isn't linked to the # of doors a product has or what kind of image it portrays. For those who want to show off, public acceptance, etc. sure. But those are 'enthusiasts' about public acceptance or reaction, not driving enjoyment-which is absolutely fine, but a separate discussion-which I guess you referencing vs true driving enjoyment.

If you think spending $400 million is 'ballsy' vs improving a product lineup to hopefully launch a product later on with few compromises/keeping folks employed with improved finances then we agree to disagree.

I'm not 'championing' anything. But I have to know the realistic market conditions to know how to be effective at my job. If there are a 'bunch of coupes' out then why the issue with this product? I really don't get your point here. I literally started this conversation by saying there are coupes out there, the market is drying up, and this Acura is a potential point of entry without the markup for a Civic Type R.

The irony is RWD purists will look at your championing of a FWD coupe i.e ' enthusiasts' as laughable.

The consumer space is a black hole of nonsense.

SonofSal · Dec 10, 2022

^Wow ..guy typing novels.
I have too short of an attention span to get through any of his posts.

ALNotSure · Dec 10, 2022

design said:
Again, preaching to the choir. My only point is for the very survival of the industry-any 'enthusiast' efforts shouldn't be overlooked in this current climate.

The Webster meaning

plural noun: enthusiasts

a person who is very interested in a particular activity or subject.

I listed a bunch of coupes that aren't profitable at their current sales numbers. Less than 10,000K in sales for almost all projects at those price points are losing money.

To your point So despite that the Cadillac is a fine drivers car-with steering and controls better than most modern BMWs-we are talking about image correct? Or is it driving enjoyment in which none of that crap actually matters? (What I would think an 'enthusiasts' POV would be-but purely isn't as again, a brand has so thread a needle to sell 10K.-i.e. great steering, handling, controls, -what we ask for along with reliability but ehhh that badge!) Not great.

Once again, I'm not agreeing with accountants-but is this the auto business or a business that should cater to your particular set of needs? I've acknowledged that you obviously have a personal bias, but taking the accountants POV ironically gives someone like you the opportunity to enjoy the very products you are championing. I'm sure how/why that's debatable (?)

Toyotas very approach you are talking about helped grow/build up the cash reserves to pay for the very enthusiasts products you are referencing.

My exact is that driving excitement isn't linked to the # of doors a product has or what kind of image it portrays. For those who want to show off, public acceptance, etc. sure. But those are 'enthusiasts' about public acceptance or reaction, not driving enjoyment-which is absolutely fine, but a separate discussion-which I guess you referencing vs true driving enjoyment.

If you think spending $400 million is 'ballsy' vs improving a product lineup to hopefully launch a product later on with few compromises/keeping folks employed with improved finances then we agree to disagree.

I'm not 'championing' anything. But I have to know the realistic market conditions to know how to be effective at my job. If there are a 'bunch of coupes' out then why the issue with this product? I really don't get your point here. I literally started this conversation by saying there are coupes out there, the market is drying up, and this Acura is a potential point of entry without the markup for a Civic Type R.

The irony is RWD purists will look at your championing of a FWD coupe i.e ' enthusiasts' as laughable.

The consumer space is a black hole of nonsense.

Look again I totally understand the business case or lack of a business case for coupes or even sedans and wagons. Heck even why certain colors are not offered due to low sales. So not completely disagreeing on the why’s of a manufacturer skipping coupes.

The coupes you listed are profitable. How can you say they are not profitable? The 86/BRZ sold over 200k worldwide in its first generation, considered a great success and why a second generation came.

The LC has met demand worldwide and a refresh is coming.

The 911 and Boxster have high profit margins. The 911 in particular the largest in the industry.

etc etc…

Obviously in todays space it’s not even sedans people want. Any type of crossover sells and we have seen an explosion of “coupe” (i:e ugly lifted crossovers) versions and performance ones. Sedan sales continue to drop. We have witnesses the CR-V become Hondas best seller and the Rav-4 become Toyotas best seller. The Accord and Camry held that for two decades. But if you look at sales figures and percentages the Camry has held much stronger than the Accord which some will argue is the better car. The Camry and Accord used to sell near equally and now the Camry outsells it almost 2-1. Something is amiss at Honda.

With all that manufacturers that actually care about enthusiasts know that tiny group is key for a brand’s connection to youthfulness and coolness. The cayenne might have saved Porsche but the 911 drives the company and its image. A larger suv is coming to fill needs but the Taycan is what people aspire too and want. For Lexus the RX is by far their best seller but cars like the LC, RC F and IS 500 help with image and youthful admiration. The Civic Type-R drives Honda’s coolness, not a CR-V. etc etc

The bottom line to me is Honda and Acura sales are down 34-37% whereas the industry is down much less or even growing. An Integra coupe done correctly IMO would have helped image and sales. That is what people were craving. No one asked for a 4 door. They should have then just kept it named as an ILX. It is perplexing their product planners are that disconnected from the market.