PROOF That Flywire Is Really Just Thread...Even On The Running Shoes

[peterflight]

...Well the first time I really doubted Flywire implementation of Vectran was the first time i've seen Hyperdunks lateral side profile (day1...).

Why do you need such a big phylon triangle to stabilize the foot when Flywire should be there to do that same job???

Ciaoooo
Peter

 

[grizzla1024]

I believe in what Flywire Can do... I've seen those Fisherman Shows. I know its strong.. lol But is Nike using the product actually OR if in fact they are using it, which doesnt appear to be the case, are they actually using it in the correct manner.

To stabalize the shoe... and how can highly dense spools of fiber/thread/wire be dyed so efficiently in high quantities??


Talking about the dying of the thread, fishing lines come in all different colours (i know not all are fibre based in the way flywire is, but the braidedvarieties and so on are) so i dont think there is a problem with the colouring of Flywire.

As for the retail version being an inferior thread, i can certainly believe that. A lot of people will but the retail version and not actually use the shoe forits intended purpose. There are plenty of people out there who will have bought hyperdunks and not actually set foot on a basketball court or played a propergame that isnt a mess-about down the local court. for these people and many local team players i expect too, they wont even know or be bothered that thematerial for the flywire is not actually Vectran.
Look at the market for nike, i bet only us few on NT actually are aware that the material is different/not what it is cut out to be. Nike, looking at thebigger picture, are not going to care about a few people on here, when they sell millions of shoes to the general public

 

[eebs7eez]

the cable theory never made sense to me either rock, i couldn't put together how it could create tensility from the way it is placed in the hyperdunk andmost other models. the only way i would see it possibly helping is if it did somehow loop across , anchoring from one side ofthe midsole to the other.

that would require a slip-on structure similar to the presto's, but fitting would be nearly impossible. i imagine if the shoe was structured this way, itwould be able to help with lateral stability, like the larger outriggers on tennis shoes.

to me, the placing on the hyperdunk can't realistically do its job...

 

[elderwatsondiggs]

This isn't the first time Nike experimented with braided fibers in an upper. Remember the XIX'swith "Tech Flex"? Seemed more decorative than actually useful.

 

[elderwatsondiggs]

Originally Posted by eeBS7eez

the cable theory never made sense to me either rock, i couldn't put together how it could create tensility from the way it is placed in the hyperdunk and most other models. the only way i would see it possibly helping is if it did somehow loop across , anchoring from one side ofthe midsole to the other.

that would require a slip-on structure similar to the presto's, but fitting would be nearly impossible. i imagine if the shoe was structured this way, it would be able to help with lateral stability, like the larger outriggers on tennis shoes.

to me, the placing on the hyperdunk can't realistically do its job...

Good point, though on the Air Max 09's it seems as if the plastic that encases the"flywire" actually keeps the stretchy material of the upper from stretching at the midfoot.

 

[sole investigator]

Good discussion here.

I don't know if this is a problem, but just an observation that I have.... while looking at my Lunaracers, I have noticed that for each Flywire cable, itlooks like there is actually 2 threads. One set of thread on the outside in the volt color, while there is another thread on the inside of the shoe that iswhite.

I tried looking at all the videos showing the process of stitching the Flywire cables to the shoe upper, but could not determine if there actually were 2threads present.

Could anyone with further knowledge expand on this?

 

[ai39theanswer]

So not only does lunar foam bottom out but flywire is cheap and bad quality too.

 

[elderwatsondiggs]

Originally Posted by Sole Investigator

Good discussion here.

I don't know if this is a problem, but just an observation that I have.... while looking at my Lunaracers, I have noticed that for each Flywire cable, it looks like there is actually 2 threads. One set of thread on the outside in the volt color, while there is another thread on the inside of the shoe that is white.

I tried looking at all the videos showing the process of stitching the Flywire cables to the shoe upper, but could not determine if there actually were 2 threads present.

Could anyone with further knowledge expand on this?

I could be gravely wrong Sole, but it is probably for aesthetic reasons. They are probably justmulti-colored strands of the same material.

 

[onlyfootball]

i'm still convinced that the thing "plastic" layer that covers the textile and encases the threads is actually what's doing all thesupportive work. someone prove me wrong

 

[nkwu11]

Originally Posted by ALPHAPROJECT

^^ I thought I did... lol
Flywire Functional = Poo Poo

Flywire Aesthetics = Greeeeaaaat!!!!
I totally misread your original post before that

When I saw that first video describing how Flywire was made and invented it didn't QUITE make sense to me. I saw the vid and what it did, I saws how ithelped. But now, as I think about it, I think the term flywire and all the marketing is a grossly misleadinng. (On that note can someone tell me what the"official" (Re: According to Nike) purpose of flywire is).. Right now my understanding is flywire was supposed to be supportive (as in not stretch)and light weight material. And my as far as I've read flywire does that - right? IMO Flywire is a misnomer...Nike had a super lightweight material and addsthe fibre where it needs support (as opposed to adding layers of material, and what not). In that sense, to me, it seemslike it doesn't really matter whattype of fibre is used (And from there I don't think it should be called Flywire - I remember the approach they had started as an approach to use tensilefibres to support the shoe, but it seems like it's more the fibres are just being used to support the fabric).

And...thinking about it that way, it makes sense how the "flywire" works to suport the shoe, even without creating any real tensility, and then itanswers this:

Why do you need such a big phylon triangle to stabilize the foot when Flywire should be there to do that same job???
Because flywire isn't supposed to support the foot like that. It's jsut acting as a light weight supportive material.



.....Then again I could be totally wrong (let's see if i'm thinkin straight....) and I haven't worn anyflywire shoes (for anything serious) or taken a very close look at any. I think there's a lot of issues with semantics and the name flywire though...

 

[sneakerfreafer23]

im really having doubts about nike's tech stuff. the jargons are killin me

 

[sole investigator]

Originally Posted by ElderWatsonDiggs

Originally Posted by Sole Investigator

Good discussion here.

I don't know if this is a problem, but just an observation that I have.... while looking at my Lunaracers, I have noticed that for each Flywire cable, it looks like there is actually 2 threads. One set of thread on the outside in the volt color, while there is another thread on the inside of the shoe that is white.

I tried looking at all the videos showing the process of stitching the Flywire cables to the shoe upper, but could not determine if there actually were 2 threads present.

Could anyone with further knowledge expand on this?

I could be gravely wrong Sole, but it is probably for aesthetic reasons. They are probably just multi-colored strands of the same material.

I realize that they are probably made of the same material, but just different colors. But I was more curious about the fact that there are 2 sets of strands,one for the outside and one for the inside. When I looked closely, I could see that the 2 sets did not line up perfectly and could see the other set behind.

When you had your Air Max 2009's, did you see this as well?

 

[kobe4threebang]

Originally Posted by Crazy EBW

What ISN'T a gimmick these days?

couldnt have said it better myself

 

[swerv1n]

flywire, air sole unit, shox, breathable mesh = GIMMICKS ..... i fall for it every time ......... n i love it

 

[peterflight]

Why do you need such a big phylon triangle to stabilize the foot when Flywire should be there to do that same job???
Because flywire isn't supposed to support the foot like that. It's jsut acting as a light weight supportive material.


Well, if you look at flywire development footage shown before olympic games, they were using different basketball sample shoes to test flywire inthe upper; one of them had air jordan 11 outsole+midsole and another one had zoom bb outsole and midsole (like if it was taken out of double lasted upper).
These slo-mo videos were used to show how flywire ALONE was supporting the foot in lateral side to side motions.
So it's possible that flywire has been downgraded from "support" status to "lightweight supportive material" status, maybe followingsome cost reduction process.

To me the idea behind flywire is good and it could really lead in uppers made just with textile panels where the way fibers are put and fibers differentmaterials combination can create flexibility and support just where you need them.
But IMHO the way flywire is used right now in basketball shoes has minimal/zero effect on shoe performance, it's just a material panel put within anindipendent supportive web structure made with usual materials...putting normal mesh piece there would be same thing.
I think that track spike shoes are a little more advanced in flywire implementation, but basketball usually takes more time to translate great ideas intoeffective tools just because running is a little part of the game...you have jumps, start & stops, side to side movements, backwardrunning...anything...plus players are much bigger then average runners.

Interesting discussion though.

Ciaooo
Peter

 

[ny giants 11]

Originally Posted by Swerv1n

flywire, air sole unit, shox, breathable mesh = GIMMICKS ..... i fall for it every time ......... n i love it

Air and mesh do what theyre supposed to.

Zoom air is STILL the standard in my eyes.

Mesh uppers definately reduce weight.

 

[nkwu11]

Originally Posted by peterflight

Why do you need such a big phylon triangle to stabilize the foot when Flywire should be there to do that same job???

Because flywire isn't supposed to support the foot like that. It's jsut acting as a light weight supportive material.


Well, if you look at flywire development footage shown before olympic games, they were using different basketball sample shoes to test flywire in the upper; one of them had air jordan 11 outsole+midsole and another one had zoom bb outsole and midsole (like if it was taken out of double lasted upper).
These slo-mo videos were used to show how flywire ALONE was supporting the foot in lateral side to side motions.
So it's possible that flywire has been downgraded from "support" status to "lightweight supportive material" status, maybe following some cost reduction process.


I was trying to recall that pre-olympics video, and I remember that particular clip you were talking about....I just watched it again bored atwork and based on the example and the narration, it seemed like the point of that example was to show how much "hold" flywire" and how it hasvery little "give" and "stretch" compared to other synthetic materials or leather. BTW do you have a lnk to the one with the Zoom BB one?The vid I watched and remembe ronly had a comparison of the Huarache 2K5 and the Vectran/Flywire Jordan XI...

I think that track spike shoes are a little more advanced in flywire implementation, but basketball usually takes more time to translate great ideas into effective tools just because running is a little part of the game..
I agree totally. The goal was to give as much support (less stretch is my interpretation right now) to create an upper thta basically moves onlywhen your foot omves (minimizing stretch almost guarantes that) As long as it's fitted perfectly, you still have to fit the upper as close to the foot aspossible. That's where track spike implementation is the best. In the pre olympic video they said it had no liner/insole and the upper seemed ot be wellintegrated into the sole. If the liner or insole existed, there would be two implications: a) weight and b) it would increase the space that your foot isallowed to actually move around inside the upper (even if fit as best as possible). I don't think any consumer targetted runners (or any runners at alaside from spikes for that matter) or basketball shoes implement flywire well - but that's what innovation (and marketing!) is.

Without a doubt I don'tthink flywire is being used to it's full potential in most of its applications (but how many innovaitons are? just like how manyshoes are used for their real purpose) - but for the purpose of offering a light weight material with little give I think it's workin.

I don' tthink we'll ever see flywire used to it's full potential in basketball shoes - it always seemd like the upper should have been created likea sock minus a tongue... flywire wrapping around the underside of the foot)...that way the laces are the only place where tensility is adjusted/lost...but withany implementation in basketball with the high impact that is involved, I don't think you'll ever be able to significantly reduce/replace the role thata sculpted midsole or any thing joined to the midsole offers as support...

 

[rockdeep]

Originally Posted by CWK


/\/\/\/\

No, I wasn't taking a side for or against - just trying to contribute. The concept seems architectually sound, but I don't know for sure if it's been applied effectively. And since I'm 6'7" and 270, I haven't even bothered playing in any of the shoes featuring Flywire so far because I would absolutely crush the midsoles. I'm looking forward to the Hypermax, though. It seems to me that if the shoe is lighter than normal while still maintaining structural integrity, then it would be a successful design.

It seems like the logical extrapolation would be to create an entire upper made of Flywire (like the old joke of making the entire airplane out of the material used for the black box.)

No Joke CWK.. but I had that SAME exact thought before.. lolololol.. Why not wrap it ALL in Flywire right??

I m with you. And I was messin with ya on the for or against.. I knew that wasstrictly info..

6'7 270? Damn Bron!!! lol

 

[rockdeep]

Originally Posted by GriZZla1024

I believe in what Flywire Can do... I've seen those Fisherman Shows. I know its strong.. lol But is Nike using the product actually OR if in fact they are using it, which doesnt appear to be the case, are they actually using it in the correct manner.

To stabalize the shoe... and how can highly dense spools of fiber/thread/wire be dyed so efficiently in high quantities??

Talking about the dying of the thread, fishing lines come in all different colours (i know not all are fibre based in the way flywire is, but the braided varieties and so on are) so i dont think there is a problem with the colouring of Flywire.

As for the retail version being an inferior thread, i can certainly believe that. A lot of people will but the retail version and not actually use the shoe for its intended purpose. There are plenty of people out there who will have bought hyperdunks and not actually set foot on a basketball court or played a proper game that isnt a mess-about down the local court. for these people and many local team players i expect too, they wont even know or be bothered that the material for the flywire is not actually Vectran.
Look at the market for nike, i bet only us few on NT actually are aware that the material is different/not what it is cut out to be. Nike, looking at the bigger picture, are not going to care about a few people on here, when they sell millions of shoes to the general public
This I know and agree with wholeheartedly.. but that is my initial point. Nike sells a Concept.. Not a reality when it comes to stuff like this.

 

[peterflight]

Nkwu11: I think I have those videos saved into my pc. Now that you tell me, I'm not too sure that the sample with zoom bb's sole was in a video...maybeit was shown into pictures...I will check out.

I think one of the reason spike shoes have no lining/padding/tongue is because they are worn for a period of time comprised between 10 secs (100 m dash) toaround 30 mins (10km run), these are just racing shoes, like dragsters or Formula 1 cars. They have limited life and you need maximum performance and perfectfoot fit for short time, so comfort is not a primary target (...I believe they end to be uncomfortable, most of the times...look at how fast athletes unlaceshoes after finish line or a single high/long jump...) so you really don't need padding inside.
Probaly flywire allows to reduce surrounding mesh fabric weight while keeping upper structure resistent and "foot friendly" matching its shape.

Basketball shoes life varies a lot from pro players to amateurs, but it is important to get good comfort and foot protection while they have to offer peakperformance for pros for short time (lunar foam vs zoom air) still keeping good reliability for at least 2-3 month of regular use for other competitiveplayers.
So pure performance is balanced with durability and comfort.
Maybe flywire needs to be developed using a thicker fabric that embodies vectran fibers stitched in engineered directions (as usual) to offer support whileproviding needed flexibility, then other materials fibers (to be studied) should provide the padding necessary to have proper comfort. So you could finallyeliminate inner bootie.

 

[retro7sz10]

nike at it again

 

[depast]

Originally Posted by Crazy EBW

What ISN'T a gimmick these days?

 

[elderwatsondiggs]

Update: After returning the Black and Red colorway because of quality issues, I picked up the Volts beforegoing to work out today. Here are my true and unbiased observations. I must say that what I felt about flywire before has changed a little.

Background: I'm 6'6 250+ ( but since I'm mostly muscle I appear more in the 225-230 range), my workout isquick and intense and I go 5 times a week, rest on the weekend (intensive ab workout, 1 mile which included 1/2 a mile at 8 mph, then 2x 1/4 of a mile at10-10.5 mph), without a cooldown I do 10-14 dips, then immediately 2 sets of 5-7 close grip pull ups with palms facing away from me.

Observations of the Air Max 2009's: The mesh material utilized on the upper is made of a flexible, airy andstretchable material. There are minimal overlays with the exception of the toe cap and a strip reinforcing material that runs perpendicular to the toe cap.This is made from the same material of the toe cap. The mesh is so thin that it is nearly transparent, unlike my 08 version of the Air Pegasus which has asubstantially thicker and doesn't stretch as much. If I put my hand into the the Max 09's and poke my finger in the mesh, it quite easily conforms tomy finger. The mesh is too thin and flexible by itself to provide any support...especially for a big heavy foot strike like my own.

Now I poke my finger into the mesh supported by the plastic film embedded with the flywire tensile fibers. Believe it ornot you can feel the tensile effect of the flywire threads and how it prevents the mesh it overlays from stretching. You can even feel how it is anchored intothe midsole. That plastic film has a little give to it, so it by itself would not provide enough support structure, it is too thin. So the plastice film'spurpose is to simply encase the flywire fibers.

So from my close observation what does flywire actually do? It allows for a very good support structure while usingminimal material...which makes the shoe light, well ventilated, and responsive...without sacrificing a strong supportive upper. Regardless of whether thefibers are Vectran or nylon they seem to do their job...at least in the Air Max 2009's.

When I ran my hard fast mile I felt ABSOLUTLEY no slippage, or any stability problems, this is with me weighing over 250and running at a pace of a 5:27 minute mile. My foot felt a lot more locked down than my Pegasus which has a more substantial mesh upper, and a pair of MizunoWave Creation 10's that I tested yesterday doing the same workout. (The Wave Creation 10's were intended for bigger runners who have a neutral runninggait and demand plush cushioning). The Air Max 2009's implementation of Flywire has changed my mind about Flywire. Nike needs to continue to evolve thistechnology and to use it better in the basketball line of shes and other lines.

Sorry for the long read, hope this helps to clarify a few things.

 

[air justinxi]

flywire is basically nylon fibers encased in tpu layers the fibers are used as suspension from the upper to the midsole. Its not the wires that make sitstrong, its the TPU, the nylon just adds support from the upper to the midsole.

 

[vocaldigital23]

The Hyperdunk makes me question the functionality of flywire. If it was truly doing the supporting as they claim in the slow-mo video, why does the quarterpanel need an additional millimeter of TPU laminate? Shouldn't it be like the sheen mesh we see on the running shoes? Perhaps they could have done it thatway, but they decided to work up to it so we have a reason to buy the 2010's at 1oz lighter or whatever it is.