Forgive me in advance for rambling......
The discussion we had in the NFL thread got me thinkin, then the games tonight added to it.
A "majority" of people list a Top 3 ever in the NFL QB argument, many will list Joe Montana and/or Peyton Manning.
Joe, the playoff legend.
Peyton the regular season legend.
Joe praised for 4-0
Peyton knocked for 1-2. Hell, his brother has more Super Bowls.
The year Peyton did win, one of the worst playoff years of his career.
Michael Jordan considered the greatest of all time in the NBA. 6-0.
The best year MJ ever had was 1987-88. 35 points, 5.5 rebounds, 6 assists, 3.2 steals. MVP, All NBA, All Defense, highest PER of his storied career, highest wins shares, O rating, etc etc. 24 years old. Peak of his powers. No title.
The next year, he went 32.5/8/8 and 3 steals. Absurd. Age 25. No title.
Kobe's best year, 2002-03. No title.
2005-06. No title.
2012-13. No title.
Lebron with the Cavs before going to the Heat. Insane years. Never won. Til he went to Miami.
Legends are all about winning. Only, winning takes about 500,000 variables for one to get there. Owner, money, GM, coach, offense, defense, special teams, kickers, run the ball, throw it, stop the run, stop the pass, playcalling, luck, weather, refs, injuries, assistants, and on and on and on.
Sit in here long enough, we see people chop up Joe, Favre, Brady, Rodgers, Peyton, Brees, Romo, Elway, Marino, Aikman, Luck, Wilson (
) Ben, MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Bron, Durant, Kershaw, etc etc. It's what we do. "Eval" eras, stats, teams, players, coaches and so on.
Elway goes 0-3, gets older, slower, not as good, but gets Terrell Davis, back to back at 37-38.
Brady 3-0 with elite D and camerawork, becomes a MACHINE at QB, goes 0-2 vs Eli and his miracle throws that cannot be dropped.
Kurt Warner, maybe 2 feet from being 3-0, or 0-3.
Troy for his career, 160+ TD's, 140+ INT's.
Playoffs? 23-17 ratio. Won 3 SB's in 4 years.
Irvin, Emmitt, Harper, Novacek, Dieon, Haley, Maryland, Woodson, Norton......
Jim Kelly goes to 4 straight SB's, but loses all 4. Thurman, Reed, Lofton, Bruce Smith, Daryl Talley, Cornelius Bennett. Lot of talent. Just couldn't beat the NFC East. 0-4.
Barry Sanders runs for more yards than anyone, to a point, then just quits. Emmitt surpasses, takes record, postseason glory, possible GOAT. Barry finishes out a full career, he may shatter the records. 20K possible.
Never had a shred of postseason success. Might be greatest runner we ever see, but his team was never in the hunt to elevate his status.
Same as the origin of all that debate yesterday, Dan Marino. Greatest QB I've ever seen. But doesn't get the recognition because Joe Montana 4-0. Or Peyton regular season PLUS 1 SB.
Jim Kelly beat Dan 3 times in the playoffs. Or, Bruce Smith, Talley, Bennett, Thurman, Reed, etc did. Miami defense gave up 341 yards rushing one game.
Kelly went 0-4 in SB's, but had enough talent to get there, just not win.
What if Buffalo drafted Dan, and Miami took Kelly?
Could Dan then be a winner with Thurman, Bruce, Reed, etc? Would Buffalo go 0-4?
Situations mean so much. No one factors those in. I've said in here before, if Joe played for Shula, with a UPS driver for a RB, and a Tom Olividodi defense, does he go 4-0?
If I gave Dan Bill Walsh, Dwight Clark, Rice, Craig, Taylor, Jones, Rathman, Lott, Haley, is he still just 0-1?
This year Ryan Tannehill became the first 3rd year QB in history with 4,000 yards, 25+ TD's, 12 or fewer INT's with a rating over 90. He broke Dan's completions in a season record. Watered down stats in a watered down era.
Multiple games Ryan lost because of his defense. GB, Det, Denver, Baltimore, Jets. Ryan had the lead on all of them, finished 8-8. Coulda been 13-3. Wake, Grimes, Jones are nice players.
Tonight I watched Cam battle Bennett, Sherm, Kam, Earl, Irvin, Wagner, Wright. All on one damn unit.
And it made me wonder. Would Ryan have his 13-3 with those 7 protecting leads vs GB, Det, Balt, Denver and the Jets?
Would Russ be as great under Joe Philbin, without the same level of defense?
Andrew, trading Trent for Lynch and 7 franchise level defenders?
I get caught up in it too. I examine and reflect on titles across sports, and try to quantify things. Is Madison Bumgarner a better pitcher than Greg Maddux?
Barry Bonds never won a World Series, Pablo Sandoval got a handful of jewelry.
Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco. Kelly and Marino.
Elway elevates at 37-38 with 2 SB's. If Old man Marino won a title at 38, 14 years after his 1984 season, that would validate his career?
If Russ repeats vs Brady or Peyton next month, do they drop a notch while Russ rises up?
Brady could have 50,000+ yards, 400+ TD's, reach 6 Super Bowls in 14 years with 1 team, most playoff wins, yards, TD's in history, but if he goes 3-3, Joe is better cuz 4-0?
Even tho Joe has HALF those numbers and triple/quadruple the hall of famers on his roster?
****, this post has a lot of words.
I expect to get lit up like a Christmas tree for this one. Sorry for the ramble. But hope I made some folks think a little.