Should the NBA retire the number 23 for Micheal Jordan like the NHL did for Wayne Gretzky?

[darthska]

No.

There is no arguing that Gretzky is the greatest ever. I mean, anyone could argue it, but anyone could argue the sun is made of Flamin' Hot Cheetos, too.At best, it would be a weak argument. With Jordan, people can make some very strong arguments for other people being the GOAT. People are going to disagree onthe points brought up, but all arguments would be solid. There is no solid argument against Gretzky being the GOAT or for someone else being the GOAT.

And with Jackie, c'mon, his entrance into MLB was huge, and what he went through is well deserving of a number retirement. No, he wasn't the onlyperson to go through what he went through, nor was he the last, but he was the first black person to enter MLB. That has to be honored. He was given the offer,he accepted, he was put through hell for it, retire his number in appreciation.

Jordan is not so far ahead of everyone else ever that he needs his number retired, and he didn't leave any sort of social footprint on the league.

He was super, crazy good, and 9 kinds of entertaining. That doesn't warrant a number retirement.

 

[doublejs07]

The thing about Gretz is that he DESTROYED just about every scoring record you can imagine. There is zero debate as to who the best player to EVER lace theskates in the NHL is. Was Gretzky the most talented dude to come thru the NHL? That can be debated...however, he was the most dominant player the game has everseen bar none. The gap between Wayne Gretzky and the 2nd leading scorer in NHL history is HUGE. Some records will never be broken, and Gretzky's overallpoints (amongst other things) will most likely never be touched.

 

[RyGuy45]

[h2]NHL Career Points Leaders[/h2]
[table][tr][th=""]Rank[/th] [th=""]Player[/th] [th=""]PTS[/th] [/tr][tr][td]1.[/td] [td]Wayne Gretzky[/td] [td]2857[/td] [/tr][tr][td]2.[/td] [td]Mark Messier[/td] [td]1887[/td] [/tr][tr][td]3.[/td] [td]Gordie Howe[/td] [td]1850[/td] [/tr][tr][td]4.[/td] [td]Ron Francis[/td] [td]1798[/td] [/tr][tr][td]5.[/td] [td]Marcel Dionne[/td] [td]1771[/td] [/tr][tr][td]6.[/td] [td]Steve Yzerman[/td] [td]1755[/td] [/tr][tr][td]7.[/td] [td]Mario Lemieux[/td] [td]1723[/td] [/tr][tr][td]8.[/td] [td]Joe Sakic[/td] [td]1641[/td] [/tr][tr][td]9.[/td] [td]Jaromir Jagr[/td] [td]1599[/td] [/tr][tr][td]10.[/td] [td]Phil Esposito[/td] [td]1590[/td] [/tr][/table]

 

[proshares]

Click on Wayne's name for the individual season stats compared to even Mario's and it makes it seem crazier.

Think of it this way, Crosby is 22 and is 2,460 points away. He averages 99 points per season. He would have to average 136 points a year until he hits 40 totie Wayne. Ovechkin is 24 and 2,437 away and he averages 105 points a year. He would have to average 152 points a year to tie Wayne.

 

[darthska]

RyGuy45:

---

[h2]NHL Career Points Leaders[/h2]
[table][tr][th=""]Rank[/th] [th=""]Player[/th] [th=""]PTS[/th] [/tr][tr][td]1.[/td] [td]Wayne Gretzky[/td] [td]2857[/td] [/tr][tr][td]2.[/td] [td]Mark Messier[/td] [td]1887[/td] [/tr][tr][td]3.[/td] [td]Gordie Howe[/td] [td]1850[/td] [/tr][tr][td]4.[/td] [td]Ron Francis[/td] [td]1798[/td] [/tr][tr][td]5.[/td] [td]Marcel Dionne[/td] [td]1771[/td] [/tr][tr][td]6.[/td] [td]Steve Yzerman[/td] [td]1755[/td] [/tr][tr][td]7.[/td] [td]Mario Lemieux[/td] [td]1723[/td] [/tr][tr][td]8.[/td] [td]Joe Sakic[/td] [td]1641[/td] [/tr][tr][td]9.[/td] [td]Jaromir Jagr[/td] [td]1599[/td] [/tr][tr][td]10.[/td] [td]Phil Esposito[/td] [td]1590[/td] [/tr][/table]
"

" is right.

 

[codex57]

That laughing smiley perfectly illustrates why there's not even an argument.

The difference btw what Gretzky accomplished and the runner up is so huge, you can't help but stop, pick your jaw up off teh floor, and then startlaughing. If Jordan tops a list, it's not by that much. You can easily imagine someone like LeBron or Kobe surpassing him one day. And the thing is, Jordandoesn't dominate the basketball record books like Gretzky does. That's why you can make valid arguments for a number of other players. He didn'tbreak any barriers like Jackie did either. He just built on what Magic/Bird did before him, and they just built on what other players did before them.LeBron/Kobe are building on what Jordan did in the 90s.

The titans in hockey compared to Gretzky are like what Mark Ehlo is to Jordan. Can you say players like Jerry West, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Magic, Bird, Shaq,etc are like scrubs compared to Jordan? No. They're all dominant in their own ways.

 

[clutchshooter]

Quite frankly all of you arguing for retiring 23 just dont understand. probably has something to do with the the fact that hockey isnt popular on nt andyou dont watch it,

and a lot of it has to do with the unyielding blind mancrush that mj receieves on nt.

Originally Posted by RyGuy45

[h2]NHL Career Points Leaders[/h2]
[table][tr][th=""]Rank[/th] [th=""]Player[/th] [th=""]PTS[/th] [/tr][tr][td]1.[/td] [td]Wayne Gretzky[/td] [td]2857[/td] [/tr][tr][td]2.[/td] [td]Mark Messier[/td] [td]1887[/td] [/tr][tr][td]3.[/td] [td]Gordie Howe[/td] [td]1850[/td] [/tr][tr][td]4.[/td] [td]Ron Francis[/td] [td]1798[/td] [/tr][tr][td]5.[/td] [td]Marcel Dionne[/td] [td]1771[/td] [/tr][tr][td]6.[/td] [td]Steve Yzerman[/td] [td]1755[/td] [/tr][tr][td]7.[/td] [td]Mario Lemieux[/td] [td]1723[/td] [/tr][tr][td]8.[/td] [td]Joe Sakic[/td] [td]1641[/td] [/tr][tr][td]9.[/td] [td]Jaromir Jagr[/td] [td]1599[/td] [/tr][tr][td]10.[/td] [td]Phil Esposito[/td] [td]1590[/td] [/tr][/table]

and these are just regular season stats.


you have to understand that he has 10 MVP caliber seasons worth of points more than the next player on the list.

he is the only player ever to score 200 points in a season. he has done this 4 times.

9 time MVP.

the NHL's All Time Goals AND Assists Leader.

the only player ever to surpass 3000 points between regular season and playoffs.

and by the way his first pro season wasnt in the NHL, it was in the WHA. he registered 110 points. tack that onto his already huge totals.




No one, and i mean NO ONE, is even remotely close to being in Wayne Gretzky's league when it's comes to dominance within their own sport.

 

[crazy dav0]

Originally Posted by reppin va

Originally Posted by jepeh21

Originally Posted by Bucknuts116


they wont... and shouldnt... 99 got retired because he is and will always be the best hockey player we will ever see.... no1 will be anywhere close to seting as many records or breakin most of his records... just aint gonna happen... im sure when kobe n bron are done they will be considered better... so you cant..

really now?

Kobe and/or Bron better than Jordan

..?

super mario might have something to say about that!! unfortunately he didn't have the longevity of The Great one

 

[clutchshooter]

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0


super mario might have something to say about that!! unfortunately he didn't have the longevity of The Great one

a lot of people seem to like to make this argument but it has no substance.

Lemieux's best season occured in 88-89 when he acumulated 199 points, the 5th highest single season point total ever. Gretzky has topped 200 pts 4 times.

He didnt even win the MVP that season because of Gretzky.

and he played 10 seasons before his first retirement and 17 seasons in all. it is a shame that cancer afected his career but even if fully healthy, it'shighly unlikely he would have approached Gretzky's numbers.

Mario could be in the argument for 2nd greatest player ever, but there is no argument for the Greatest, and a wide wiiiiide gap between the two positions.

 

[israel5ekla]

I knew Gretzy was great but wow, the numbers, he killed them.

Im not a hockey fan but im impressed.

 

[dmxfury]

Gotta agree with Ska. I mean, I'm a huge Mario fan, I think his talent was as good as Gretzky, but Wayne destroyed every record and owned hockey. 99deserves to be retired, and Jackie's number as well. With Jordan, to call him the greatest, you can't even go to the stats because Wilt then lookslike the best. It is more of a subjective argument, and not that it is a bad one, but to retire a number from the league it has to be more than that. Ifnothing else, players SHOULDN'T wear it out of respect like some players on teams do when they don't "officially retire numbers".

 

[crazy dav0]

Originally Posted by Clutchshooter

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0


super mario might have something to say about that!! unfortunately he didn't have the longevity of The Great one

a lot of people seem to like to make this argument but it has no substance.

Lemieux's best season occured in 88-89 when he acumulated 199 points, the 5th highest single season point total ever. Gretzky has topped 200 pts 4 times.

He didnt even win the MVP that season because of Gretzky.

and he played 10 seasons before his first retirement and 17 seasons in all. it is a shame that cancer afected his career but even if fully healthy, it's highly unlikely he would have approached Gretzky's numbers.

Mario could be in the argument for 2nd greatest player ever, but there is no argument for the Greatest, and a wide wiiiiide gap between the two positions.

i love how people fail to see the big picture ... we could go at this all day and u would lose the argument ... GRETZKY IS BETTER but wide gap

Despite playing in 572 fewer games than Gretzky, Lemieux holds the record for the highest career points-per-game average (2.005) and the highest careergoals-per-game average (.823). this only adds to my longevity comment earlier ... and u damn well know mario miss mad games in many of those seasons not onlydue to the cancer ... gretzky also had a ton of talent surrounding him in his early yrs leading to those massive assists totals ...
that 215 pt year u mention vs. mario 199 pts ... hmmm mario played 4 fewer games ... debates are cool ... but i always have facts ... once again THE ONLYDIFFERENCE WAS INJURY IMO ... at the end of the day the fans were robbed and as a result the #'s are a lot wider than they should be .... /thread
productivity while on ice for mario > gretzky ... i'll go w/ that

 

[codex57]

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0

Originally Posted by Clutchshooter

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0


super mario might have something to say about that!! unfortunately he didn't have the longevity of The Great one

a lot of people seem to like to make this argument but it has no substance.

Lemieux's best season occured in 88-89 when he acumulated 199 points, the 5th highest single season point total ever. Gretzky has topped 200 pts 4 times.

He didnt even win the MVP that season because of Gretzky.

and he played 10 seasons before his first retirement and 17 seasons in all. it is a shame that cancer afected his career but even if fully healthy, it's highly unlikely he would have approached Gretzky's numbers.

Mario could be in the argument for 2nd greatest player ever, but there is no argument for the Greatest, and a wide wiiiiide gap between the two positions.

i love how people fail to see the big picture ... we could go at this all day and u would lose the argument ... GRETZKY IS BETTER but wide gap

Despite playing in 572 fewer games than Gretzky, Lemieux holds the record for the highest career points-per-game average (2.005) and the highest career goals-per-game average (.823). this only adds to my longevity comment earlier ... and u damn well know mario miss mad games in many of those seasons not only due to the cancer ... gretzky also had a ton of talent surrounding him in his early yrs leading to those massive assists totals ...
that 215 pt year u mention vs. mario 199 pts ... hmmm mario played 4 fewer games ... debates are cool ... but i always have facts ... once again THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS INJURY IMO ... at the end of the day the fans were robbed and as a result the #'s are a lot wider than they should be .... /thread
productivity while on ice for mario > gretzky ... i'll go w/ that

No, go with the big picture here. That longevity thing was key. Ok, so Lemiux had a couple of stats that were higher per average.

Well, if you condense a player's career down to his peak years, of course those are gonna have a great average. It's also why to qualify for certainawards, you need a minimum # of appearances/attempts/etc. This goes back to longevity. Usually, a player's numbers need some time to build up as theylearn the pro game, and they drop drastically as their career winds down. Jordan's last few years really helped tank his average, as is usually the case. Mario didn't have all those wind down years. Stuff beyond age cut his career off short. If he had those wind down years, it's possible he loses thecouple of stats he has that are better than Gretzky's.

Again, this is just another example of how great Gretzky was. He was producing HOF numbers from the start, and kept it up for such a long time. We praiseFavre and Ripken for a reason. It's damn hard to have a really long career in pro sports. Especially in a physical one like hockey. One critical skillthat's overlooked is how you keep up production as your body ages, has injuries, etc. Somehow, Gretzky kept it up for such a long time to blow everyoneaway.

 

[crazy dav0]

Originally Posted by codex57

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0

Originally Posted by Clutchshooter

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0


super mario might have something to say about that!! unfortunately he didn't have the longevity of The Great one

a lot of people seem to like to make this argument but it has no substance.

Lemieux's best season occured in 88-89 when he acumulated 199 points, the 5th highest single season point total ever. Gretzky has topped 200 pts 4 times.

He didnt even win the MVP that season because of Gretzky.

and he played 10 seasons before his first retirement and 17 seasons in all. it is a shame that cancer afected his career but even if fully healthy, it's highly unlikely he would have approached Gretzky's numbers.

Mario could be in the argument for 2nd greatest player ever, but there is no argument for the Greatest, and a wide wiiiiide gap between the two positions.

i love how people fail to see the big picture ... we could go at this all day and u would lose the argument ... GRETZKY IS BETTER but wide gap

Despite playing in 572 fewer games than Gretzky, Lemieux holds the record for the highest career points-per-game average (2.005) and the highest career goals-per-game average (.823). this only adds to my longevity comment earlier ... and u damn well know mario miss mad games in many of those seasons not only due to the cancer ... gretzky also had a ton of talent surrounding him in his early yrs leading to those massive assists totals ...
that 215 pt year u mention vs. mario 199 pts ... hmmm mario played 4 fewer games ... debates are cool ... but i always have facts ... once again THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS INJURY IMO ... at the end of the day the fans were robbed and as a result the #'s are a lot wider than they should be .... /thread
productivity while on ice for mario > gretzky ... i'll go w/ that

No, go with the big picture here. That longevity thing was key. Ok, so Lemiux had a couple of stats that were higher per average.

Well, if you condense a player's career down to his peak years, of course those are gonna have a great average. It's also why to qualify for certain awards, you need a minimum # of appearances/attempts/etc. This goes back to longevity. Usually, a player's numbers need some time to build up as they learn the pro game, and they drop drastically as their career winds down. Jordan's last few years really helped tank his average, as is usually the case. Mario didn't have all those wind down years. Stuff beyond age cut his career off short. If he had those wind down years, it's possible he loses the couple of stats he has that are better than Gretzky's.

Again, this is just another example of how great Gretzky was. He was producing HOF numbers from the start, and kept it up for such a long time. We praise Favre and Ripken for a reason. It's damn hard to have a really long career in pro sports. Especially in a physical one like hockey. One critical skill that's overlooked is how you keep up production as your body ages, has injuries, etc. Somehow, Gretzky kept it up for such a long time to blow everyone away.

ok but the guy had CANCER and cameback mid season to lead to a CUP ... how many people can do that .... iono .. like i said gretzky is better but its more likea slim margin instead of a wide margin ... its not like mario had a bo jackson type career ... mario didn't have the prototypical wind down career but acomeback is even harder imo after taking time off ... gretzky was always on top of his game as he was able to play str8 ... mario was able to step on the iceand play as if he didn't miss a beat ... CLASSIC DEBATE ... what could have been ...

 

[proshares]

Mario also had a great supporting cast as well lead by two HOFers in Jagr and Ronny Francis. Add in Tocchet, Marty Straka, Kovalev in his later years. Hemissed 513 regular season games in his career. Regular season with 1723 points and 915 games played it evens out to about 1.883 PPG in his career. Keeping upthat average would have been a stretch considering how the game changed in the mid to late 90s but if he did he would have ammased 966 points leaving him about168 points short of Wayne.

The spinal disc, Hodgkins, the hip and the back cut short a great career no doubt.

 

[doublejs07]

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0

Originally Posted by codex57

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0

Originally Posted by Clutchshooter

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0


super mario might have something to say about that!! unfortunately he didn't have the longevity of The Great one

a lot of people seem to like to make this argument but it has no substance.

Lemieux's best season occured in 88-89 when he acumulated 199 points, the 5th highest single season point total ever. Gretzky has topped 200 pts 4 times.

He didnt even win the MVP that season because of Gretzky.

and he played 10 seasons before his first retirement and 17 seasons in all. it is a shame that cancer afected his career but even if fully healthy, it's highly unlikely he would have approached Gretzky's numbers.

Mario could be in the argument for 2nd greatest player ever, but there is no argument for the Greatest, and a wide wiiiiide gap between the two positions.

i love how people fail to see the big picture ... we could go at this all day and u would lose the argument ... GRETZKY IS BETTER but wide gap

Despite playing in 572 fewer games than Gretzky, Lemieux holds the record for the highest career points-per-game average (2.005) and the highest career goals-per-game average (.823). this only adds to my longevity comment earlier ... and u damn well know mario miss mad games in many of those seasons not only due to the cancer ... gretzky also had a ton of talent surrounding him in his early yrs leading to those massive assists totals ...
that 215 pt year u mention vs. mario 199 pts ... hmmm mario played 4 fewer games ... debates are cool ... but i always have facts ... once again THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS INJURY IMO ... at the end of the day the fans were robbed and as a result the #'s are a lot wider than they should be .... /thread
productivity while on ice for mario > gretzky ... i'll go w/ that

No, go with the big picture here. That longevity thing was key. Ok, so Lemiux had a couple of stats that were higher per average.

Well, if you condense a player's career down to his peak years, of course those are gonna have a great average. It's also why to qualify for certain awards, you need a minimum # of appearances/attempts/etc. This goes back to longevity. Usually, a player's numbers need some time to build up as they learn the pro game, and they drop drastically as their career winds down. Jordan's last few years really helped tank his average, as is usually the case. Mario didn't have all those wind down years. Stuff beyond age cut his career off short. If he had those wind down years, it's possible he loses the couple of stats he has that are better than Gretzky's.

Again, this is just another example of how great Gretzky was. He was producing HOF numbers from the start, and kept it up for such a long time. We praise Favre and Ripken for a reason. It's damn hard to have a really long career in pro sports. Especially in a physical one like hockey. One critical skill that's overlooked is how you keep up production as your body ages, has injuries, etc. Somehow, Gretzky kept it up for such a long time to blow everyone away.

ok but the guy had CANCER and cameback mid season to lead to a CUP ... how many people can do that .... iono .. like i said gretzky is better but its more like a slim margin instead of a wide margin ... its not like mario had a bo jackson type career ... mario didn't have the prototypical wind down career but a comeback is even harder imo after taking time off ... gretzky was always on top of his game as he was able to play str8 ... mario was able to step on the ice and play as if he didn't miss a beat ... CLASSIC DEBATE ... what could have been ...

Statistically it's a HUGE gap...talent wise, I'd easily say that Mario > Gretzky. Mario is the most physically gifted player the NHL has ever seen. That being said, Gretzky was the better player. It's no disrespect to Mario, but I just feel that if you're starting a team (based off of Mario andGretzky in their primes), most people are going to take Gretzky. Not couting his battle with Hodgkins (cause anyone in their right mind would give him a passfor that), he still had issues with staying healthy. The longevity in which Gretzky played is something that you should not and can not hold against him whencomparing his career to Lemieux.

 

[codex57]

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0

Originally Posted by codex57

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0

Originally Posted by Clutchshooter

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0


super mario might have something to say about that!! unfortunately he didn't have the longevity of The Great one

a lot of people seem to like to make this argument but it has no substance.

Lemieux's best season occured in 88-89 when he acumulated 199 points, the 5th highest single season point total ever. Gretzky has topped 200 pts 4 times.

He didnt even win the MVP that season because of Gretzky.

and he played 10 seasons before his first retirement and 17 seasons in all. it is a shame that cancer afected his career but even if fully healthy, it's highly unlikely he would have approached Gretzky's numbers.

Mario could be in the argument for 2nd greatest player ever, but there is no argument for the Greatest, and a wide wiiiiide gap between the two positions.

i love how people fail to see the big picture ... we could go at this all day and u would lose the argument ... GRETZKY IS BETTER but wide gap

Despite playing in 572 fewer games than Gretzky, Lemieux holds the record for the highest career points-per-game average (2.005) and the highest career goals-per-game average (.823). this only adds to my longevity comment earlier ... and u damn well know mario miss mad games in many of those seasons not only due to the cancer ... gretzky also had a ton of talent surrounding him in his early yrs leading to those massive assists totals ...
that 215 pt year u mention vs. mario 199 pts ... hmmm mario played 4 fewer games ... debates are cool ... but i always have facts ... once again THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS INJURY IMO ... at the end of the day the fans were robbed and as a result the #'s are a lot wider than they should be .... /thread
productivity while on ice for mario > gretzky ... i'll go w/ that

No, go with the big picture here. That longevity thing was key. Ok, so Lemiux had a couple of stats that were higher per average.

Well, if you condense a player's career down to his peak years, of course those are gonna have a great average. It's also why to qualify for certain awards, you need a minimum # of appearances/attempts/etc. This goes back to longevity. Usually, a player's numbers need some time to build up as they learn the pro game, and they drop drastically as their career winds down. Jordan's last few years really helped tank his average, as is usually the case. Mario didn't have all those wind down years. Stuff beyond age cut his career off short. If he had those wind down years, it's possible he loses the couple of stats he has that are better than Gretzky's.

Again, this is just another example of how great Gretzky was. He was producing HOF numbers from the start, and kept it up for such a long time. We praise Favre and Ripken for a reason. It's damn hard to have a really long career in pro sports. Especially in a physical one like hockey. One critical skill that's overlooked is how you keep up production as your body ages, has injuries, etc. Somehow, Gretzky kept it up for such a long time to blow everyone away.

ok but the guy had CANCER and cameback mid season to lead to a CUP ... how many people can do that .... iono .. like i said gretzky is better but its more like a slim margin instead of a wide margin ... its not like mario had a bo jackson type career ... mario didn't have the prototypical wind down career but a comeback is even harder imo after taking time off ... gretzky was always on top of his game as he was able to play str8 ... mario was able to step on the ice and play as if he didn't miss a beat ... CLASSIC DEBATE ... what could have been ...

And that's the biggest problem: what could have been. Can't play that game. What if Babe Ruth had juiced? What if Bo Jackson hadn'tgotten injured? What if Barry Sanders never retired.


No one is disputing that Mario was great. He was. But, it wasn't just cancer that cut his career short. Bunch of other injuries did too. He'sexactly like Bo Jackson and countless others. Once you throw ANY "what if" in there, you can make any crap up. The only way to do it is to look atwhat actually happened. The really real world. None of the make believe stuff.

 

[JD617]

No one, and i mean NO ONE, is even remotely close to being in Wayne Gretzky's league when it's comes to dominance within their own sport.

 

[codex57]

And I have no problems if you think Mario had more actual talent then Wayne. No way to quantify that. Hell, I could even agree with you. However, if that'sthe case, then that just makes Gretzky's accomplishments even greater.

 

[codex57]

Originally Posted by JD617

No one, and i mean NO ONE, is even remotely close to being in Wayne Gretzky's league when it's comes to dominance within their own sport.

That's the one person I think that could be comparable to Gretzky. However, I never mention him cuz of 2 reasons: 1) his career's notover so you're jumping the gun a bit; and 2) he doesn't wear a jersey so there's nothing to retire.

 

[JD617]

They should retire red shirts.

 

[proshares]

Whose picture did JD post? Can't see it on my browser...

 

[JD617]

Tiger

 

[proshares]

Ah, makes sense with the red shirt comment

 

[codex57]

What's sorta funny is he's actually wearing a blue shirt. Of all the Tiger pics out there, he finds one where Tiger looks like he's in a mug shot.