Star Wars Universe Thread: May The 4th Be With You

[clarkkent415]

That was bringing balance to the force?

Could've fooled me.

The problems I see is the force allows for a dark side, through anger and fear dark side users became the Sith. I'm not gonna get in to the books that are no longer canon but what is it you have to become a Jedi first and then go to the dark side which allows you to keep using the force? Balance to the force the whole time was about eradicating evil?

Cuz by the end of RotJ if that was Anakin bringing balance to the force it sounds like what really went down is that over decades it was a slow wiping out of the Sith and Jedi until there was only one Jedi master left.

Then Luke ****** it up by training a whole academy which starts the cycle all over again. He should've stuck to the rule of two and leave all other force sensitive ppl to figure it out on their own or not but by the end of RotJ he didn't even know much about the Jedi historically so I can see how he messed up. Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't prepare him for any of that.

Yeah man, its a little convoluted because of the books. I don't remember the exact details but in the Clone Wars cartoon all of that is explained. There's a episode where Anakin gets a glimpse of his future bringing the back the balance (from what I can recall).

From the movie though I don't know if the force is even considered out of balance? More like an awakening but not entirely sure.

It raises so many more questions about the force. For example, (I could be wrong) According to the new canon, for the first time, someone got a force vision from just touching a lightsaber.

Did Luke plan all of this? How was the force dormant due to Luke being in exile? Was it because he was the last Jedi? If it's dormant how is Kylo Ren using the force? When Snoke said "there's been an awakening" that was due to what?

 

[CP1708]

That was bringing balance to the force?

Could've fooled me.

The problems I see is the force allows for a dark side, through anger and fear dark side users became the Sith. I'm not gonna get in to the books that are no longer canon but what is it you have to become a Jedi first and then go to the dark side which allows you to keep using the force? Balance to the force the whole time was about eradicating evil?

Cuz by the end of RotJ if that was Anakin bringing balance to the force it sounds like what really went down is that over decades it was a slow wiping out of the Sith and Jedi until there was only one Jedi master left.

Then Luke ****** it up by training a whole academy which starts the cycle all over again. He should've stuck to the rule of two and leave all other force sensitive ppl to figure it out on their own or not but by the end of RotJ he didn't even know much about the Jedi historically so I can see how he messed up. Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't prepare him for any of that.

Rule of two is Sith, not Jedi.

 

[robinvandamn]

The duel

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I'm never gonna get over his duel(s) with Finn and Rey however. That was dumb and just shouldn't have happened. Son was trained by Luke ******* Skywalker at one point, apparently took part in destroying whatever Jedi Order Luke was working on, seems to be the second or third highest ranking person in the First Order (Just like Vader was in the Empire), has the blood of the Chosen One running through his veins, and has basically been training with and using the Force for however many years, yet can't beat two untrained novices? One of which might not even be Force Sensitive?! Come on man. Let's be honest with ourselves, both Finn and Rey should've been slaughtered like animals. Luke trained with Yoda for weeks and still got his *** whooped by Vader. Why? Because Vader was his superior in every way. Same with Anakin and Obi-Wan taking on Dooku in AOTC. And those are situations where both parties involved have some amount of formal training, not only with using the Force, but with actual lightsaber based combat as well. (Maybe not Luke so much in ESB, but he'd at least been trained in how to use the blade). Finn and Rey have zero experience with the situation they're being faced with, yet they're somehow able to both hold their own and Rey's able to win?! By far the dumbest moment in this film.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I'll break it down for you
 
1. Kylo was hurt in the midsection, that really limits his movement and pain can be really distracting
 
2. Kylo is not a bad *** (yet), he is nothing more than a spoiled child. Dude literally has everyone in the first order scared because he is the only force user. he has gone for years (possibly a decade) without being in a real fight. 
 
3. For the Rey fight Kylo was not trying to kill her, he was instructed to bring her in.
 
4. Rey had the clear mental edge, she overpowered him when mind reading and she out force grabbed the lightsaber. you could tell from the look on his face when the lightsaber flies by him that he's shook.
 
5. Prior to this point, Rey has shown more of an ability to fight than kylo. she has survived on her own for years having to fight off larger men. All kylo has faced is unarmed men and computer screens.
 
At the time of the fight, Rey had both the physical, mental and emotional advantage. No surprise at all that she bested kylo.
 
as for Finn, Kylo basically dominated him in 30 seconds, while figuring out how to adapt to fighting with hurt ribs. 

This is another one of the things that's more clearly illustrated in the novel too

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Remember just how powerful he was in about the first 30 or so minutes? Well the more & more he senses Han's presence (and it's implied Rey's too) the weaker in the 'dark side' he becomes. That's why after he first senses Han he beg the Vader mask to 'show him the darkside' again. And in the novel it's more explicitly painted that he needs to kill Han in order to eradicate that problem (per Orders from Snoke) but after he kills him it actually has the opposite effect and weakens him even more. That's why he begins to beat his wound before taking on Finn, he's trying to create more physical pain that he can draw power from.

Just another added layer to battle that might of been overlooked

 

[sea manup]

 

 

The duel

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I'm never gonna get over his duel(s) with Finn and Rey however. That was dumb and just shouldn't have happened.

Son was trained by Luke ******* Skywalker at one point, apparently took part in destroying whatever Jedi Order Luke was working on, seems to be the second or third highest ranking person in the First Order (Just like Vader was in the Empire), has the blood of the Chosen One running through his veins, and has basically been training with and using the Force for however many years, yet can't beat two untrained novices? One of which might not even be Force Sensitive?! Come on man.

Let's be honest with ourselves, both Finn and Rey should've been slaughtered like animals. Luke trained with Yoda for weeks and still got his *** whooped by Vader. Why? Because Vader was his superior in every way. Same with Anakin and Obi-Wan taking on Dooku in AOTC. And those are situations where both parties involved have some amount of formal training, not only with using the Force, but with actual lightsaber based combat as well. (Maybe not Luke so much in ESB, but he'd at least been trained in how to use the blade). Finn and Rey have zero experience with the situation they're being faced with, yet they're somehow able to both hold their own and Rey's able to win?!

By far the dumbest moment in this film.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I'll break it down for you
 
1. Kylo was hurt in the midsection, that really limits his movement and pain can be really distracting
 
2. Kylo is not a bad *** (yet), he is nothing more than a spoiled child. Dude literally has everyone in the first order scared because he is the only force user. he has gone for years (possibly a decade) without being in a real fight. 
 
3. For the Rey fight Kylo was not trying to kill her, he was instructed to bring her in.
 
4. Rey had the clear mental edge, she overpowered him when mind reading and she out force grabbed the lightsaber. you could tell from the look on his face when the lightsaber flies by him that he's shook.
 
5. Prior to this point, Rey has shown more of an ability to fight than kylo. she has survived on her own for years having to fight off larger men. All kylo has faced is unarmed men and computer screens.
 
At the time of the fight, Rey had both the physical, mental and emotional advantage. No surprise at all that she bested kylo.
 
as for Finn, Kylo basically dominated him in 30 seconds, while figuring out how to adapt to fighting with hurt ribs. 

This is another one of the things that's more clearly illustrated in the novel too
 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Remember just how powerful he was in about the first 30 or so minutes? Well the more & more he senses Han's presence (and it's implied Rey's too) the weaker in the 'dark side' he becomes. That's why after he first senses Han he beg the Vader mask to 'show him the darkside' again. And in the novel it's more explicitly painted that he needs to kill Han in order to eradicate that problem (per Orders from Snoke) but after he kills him it actually has the opposite effect and weakens him even more. That's why he begins to beat his wound before taking on Finn, he's trying to create more physical pain that he can draw power from.
 

Just another added layer to battle that might of been overlooked

that makes sense

he was not mentally ready for that fight and it showed 

 

[robinvandamn]

the most telling line about kylo's character is when he says to rey "I can get whatever I want".

He's not darth vader, he's cry baby anakin with hardly any real training 

that line was highkey VERY rapey

kind of made her turning **** back around on him even more satisfying

 

[Mr.Guy]

So is Rey Luke's daughter or Solo's daughter??? I just got back from the theatre. I never was a starwars fan, but I watched all so movies over the weekend for the first time and became an instant fan.

 

[...So]

.

 

[clarkkent415]

The duel

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I'm never gonna get over his duel(s) with Finn and Rey however. That was dumb and just shouldn't have happened. Son was trained by Luke ******* Skywalker at one point, apparently took part in destroying whatever Jedi Order Luke was working on, seems to be the second or third highest ranking person in the First Order (Just like Vader was in the Empire), has the blood of the Chosen One running through his veins, and has basically been training with and using the Force for however many years, yet can't beat two untrained novices? One of which might not even be Force Sensitive?! Come on man. Let's be honest with ourselves, both Finn and Rey should've been slaughtered like animals. Luke trained with Yoda for weeks and still got his *** whooped by Vader. Why? Because Vader was his superior in every way. Same with Anakin and Obi-Wan taking on Dooku in AOTC. And those are situations where both parties involved have some amount of formal training, not only with using the Force, but with actual lightsaber based combat as well. (Maybe not Luke so much in ESB, but he'd at least been trained in how to use the blade). Finn and Rey have zero experience with the situation they're being faced with, yet they're somehow able to both hold their own and Rey's able to win?! By far the dumbest moment in this film.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I'll break it down for you
 
1. Kylo was hurt in the midsection, that really limits his movement and pain can be really distracting
 
2. Kylo is not a bad *** (yet), he is nothing more than a spoiled child. Dude literally has everyone in the first order scared because he is the only force user. he has gone for years (possibly a decade) without being in a real fight. 
 
3. For the Rey fight Kylo was not trying to kill her, he was instructed to bring her in.
 
4. Rey had the clear mental edge, she overpowered him when mind reading and she out force grabbed the lightsaber. you could tell from the look on his face when the lightsaber flies by him that he's shook.
 
5. Prior to this point, Rey has shown more of an ability to fight than kylo. she has survived on her own for years having to fight off larger men. All kylo has faced is unarmed men and computer screens.
 
At the time of the fight, Rey had both the physical, mental and emotional advantage. No surprise at all that she bested kylo.
 
as for Finn, Kylo basically dominated him in 30 seconds, while figuring out how to adapt to fighting with hurt ribs. 

This is another one of the things that's more clearly illustrated in the novel too

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Remember just how powerful he was in about the first 30 or so minutes? Well the more & more he senses Han's presence (and it's implied Rey's too) the weaker in the 'dark side' he becomes. That's why after he first senses Han he beg the Vader mask to 'show him the darkside' again. And in the novel it's more explicitly painted that he needs to kill Han in order to eradicate that problem (per Orders from Snoke) but after he kills him it actually has the opposite effect and weakens him even more. That's why he begins to beat his wound before taking on Finn, he's trying to create more physical pain that he can draw power from.

Just another added layer to battle that might of been overlooked

Is there a reason in the book why he didn't sense him after Maz castle battle?

 

[robinvandamn]

The duel

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I'm never gonna get over his duel(s) with Finn and Rey however. That was dumb and just shouldn't have happened. Son was trained by Luke ******* Skywalker at one point, apparently took part in destroying whatever Jedi Order Luke was working on, seems to be the second or third highest ranking person in the First Order (Just like Vader was in the Empire), has the blood of the Chosen One running through his veins, and has basically been training with and using the Force for however many years, yet can't beat two untrained novices? One of which might not even be Force Sensitive?! Come on man. Let's be honest with ourselves, both Finn and Rey should've been slaughtered like animals. Luke trained with Yoda for weeks and still got his *** whooped by Vader. Why? Because Vader was his superior in every way. Same with Anakin and Obi-Wan taking on Dooku in AOTC. And those are situations where both parties involved have some amount of formal training, not only with using the Force, but with actual lightsaber based combat as well. (Maybe not Luke so much in ESB, but he'd at least been trained in how to use the blade). Finn and Rey have zero experience with the situation they're being faced with, yet they're somehow able to both hold their own and Rey's able to win?! By far the dumbest moment in this film.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I'll break it down for you
 
1. Kylo was hurt in the midsection, that really limits his movement and pain can be really distracting
 
2. Kylo is not a bad *** (yet), he is nothing more than a spoiled child. Dude literally has everyone in the first order scared because he is the only force user. he has gone for years (possibly a decade) without being in a real fight. 
 
3. For the Rey fight Kylo was not trying to kill her, he was instructed to bring her in.
 
4. Rey had the clear mental edge, she overpowered him when mind reading and she out force grabbed the lightsaber. you could tell from the look on his face when the lightsaber flies by him that he's shook.
 
5. Prior to this point, Rey has shown more of an ability to fight than kylo. she has survived on her own for years having to fight off larger men. All kylo has faced is unarmed men and computer screens.
 
At the time of the fight, Rey had both the physical, mental and emotional advantage. No surprise at all that she bested kylo.
 
as for Finn, Kylo basically dominated him in 30 seconds, while figuring out how to adapt to fighting with hurt ribs. 

This is another one of the things that's more clearly illustrated in the novel too

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Remember just how powerful he was in about the first 30 or so minutes? Well the more & more he senses Han's presence (and it's implied Rey's too) the weaker in the 'dark side' he becomes. That's why after he first senses Han he beg the Vader mask to 'show him the darkside' again. And in the novel it's more explicitly painted that he needs to kill Han in order to eradicate that problem (per Orders from Snoke) but after he kills him it actually has the opposite effect and weakens him even more. That's why he begins to beat his wound before taking on Finn, he's trying to create more physical pain that he can draw power from.

Just another added layer to battle that might of been overlooked

Is there a reason in the book why he didn't sense him after Maz castle battle?

What do you mean?

He knows that Han is at the castle when they attack it and he senses him the moment they land on the snow planet

 

[clarkkent415]

He knows that Han is at the castle when they attack it and he senses him the moment they land on the snow planet

For some reason I don't recall him sensing him there or probably was distracted by Rey.

Btw that one shot scene of Poe taking down the tie fighter, and then Finn saying "That's one hell of a pilot!" is one of my favorite sequences.

 

[robinvandamn]

He knows that the droid is on board of the Falcon along with FN-2187, the girl from Jakku and Han

they were alerted that the droid was there at Maz's castle so it's just putting 2 & 2 together.

 

[...So]

.

 

[sea manup]

Here is my short writeup on why (after the events of ep 7) Finn not being a jedi is a good thing

*keep in mind that this only applies BECAUSE of the events that happened in episode 7. This is about why given the current story it makes no sense for Finn to be a jedi and if would be better for the character if he is not a jedi.*

First off lets look at the likability of the character, from a skills point of view. The reason people love both Han and Luke (other than their personalities) is that they bring different things to the table in battle. Luke is awesome because he has a lightsaber and can use the force. Han is awesome because he's lethal with a blaster and very crafty. When we used to play star wars as kids, if you had a lightsaber you wanted to be luke (or vader) and if you had a blaster you wanted to be Han. Luke being able to slice things up with a lightsaber is what makes him unique, you dont get anything like that with han. On the other hand, you will never see Luke shoot two people and no look head shot a guy behind him, because that's classic Han. 

Which brings me to the key point im trying to make, when creating two characters that you want to be equally badass variety is key. It would do Finn a disservice to turn him into a jedi because he would always be second fiddle to Rey. Kids will always want to be the most powerful characters and it will always be Rey (for girls) and Kylo ( for boys). Now if you turn Finn into the next Han Solo with the blaster then now you have a very likeable character, who is the best at what he does. Anyone playing with a toy blaster will automatically want to be Finn. No one plays pickup basketball pretending to be JJ Redick, people want to be Steph Curry. The best choice is to turn Finn into the Steph Curry of blasters rather than the JJ of lightsabers.

Next, we look at how turning him into a Jedi effects the story and interplay between characters. Looking at the training timelines, by episode 8 both Rey and Kylo will have spent a good amount of time training with their respective masters. Rey is getting formal training from da gawd for the first time in her life and Kylo is probably putting everything he has into his training because of how he got sonned by Rey. It would not be a surprise to find out that both of these guys are 5-10x more powerful than we last saw them. While all this is happening, Finn is either in a coma or in rehab. He has never even felt the force before. With all this in mind, it would make no sense in the logic of this universe for Finn to be able to get to a level where he can hold his own vs Kylo in the span of one movie. 

There is also the issue of how him being a Jedi will get in the way of character interactions that we all want to see. Part of what made the original movies so interesting was the character interactions when dealing with the force. The duels between luke and vader were more so about the chracters rather than the action, and this was because the 1v1 match up encouraged conversation. The best fight in the prequels character wise is between obiwan and anakin. with obiwan vs anakin, there is clear history between the two characters. even thought they are fighting to the death you can tell that there is a bond between the two and each bit of dialogue is very personal. With obiwan vs Vader, they fight but the most interesting part is the conversation. With both Luke vs Vader fights what makes it interesting is that we get to see father and son interacting with each other. Finally in the Rey vs Kylo fight the action was cool but the most important part was when kylo pins her at the cliff and tries to get her to join the dark side. There is a level of intimacy in the best starwars duels and its only possible because of the 1v1 matchups. Kylo and Rey would be unable to have that intimate conversation while fighting if Finn is also trying to get in on the fight. 

So rather than handing finn a lightsaber and have him third wheel Rey and Kylo, it would be much better for the character to have his own 1v1 rivalry (with phasma?) where we can root and cheer for him to out gun his former boss.

Another relationship that Jedi Finn would get in the way of is Luke and Rey. After that ending im sure everyone wants to see Luke train Rey into a god like jedi and much like the lightsaber duels, in star wars the magic of training is more so in the interaction between characters. Luke doesnt get better after a rocky montage, he gets better after conversations with yoda (as seen in the movies). After the ESB we not only know that luke is stronger but that he really respects and has a strong bond with Yoda. This is what we all want to see with Luke and Rey and having Finn try to keep up with ruin that dynamic. It would also be poor writing to have TWO of the new characters to spend half the movie away from action, training. 

The reason this new movie was great despite a very basic plot is because we enjoyed the interactions between characters. Its the same reason why we get excited to see an Avengers movie, we can see crazy action in most hollywood blockbusters but we love the Avengers because of how they interact with each other. By not making Finn a Jedi, we will get to see a great relationship build between Luke and Rey, an interesting dynamic between Rey and Kylo along with giving more oppertunity to the fantastic paring of Finn and Poe.

I know a lot of people are upset that Finn wont be a Jedi, but I hope after reading this you can get excited about the potential for both the story and the character of FInn to be great if he doesnt become a jedi. 

 

[glasshouse]

Luke Skywalker was on that ledge helping Rey fight the whole time. It is also his light sabor. She was handing it to him as respect and thank you. Imo

 

[bigjny88]

So, how long we gonna keep use spoiler tags and eventually merge the "spoiler-version" of this thread into the main thread?  Just sayin 

 

[sea manup]

I challenge you guys to rewatch luke's facial expressions at the end and not think of this scene

 

[change the name Snyder]

tbh we should be able to freely discuss at this point

 

[sea manup]

if you're not looking to be spoiled why would you go to the starwars thread? 

 

[Master Zik]

That was bringing balance to the force?

Could've fooled me.

The problems I see is the force allows for a dark side, through anger and fear dark side users became the Sith. I'm not gonna get in to the books that are no longer canon but what is it you have to become a Jedi first and then go to the dark side which allows you to keep using the force? Balance to the force the whole time was about eradicating evil?

Cuz by the end of RotJ if that was Anakin bringing balance to the force it sounds like what really went down is that over decades it was a slow wiping out of the Sith and Jedi until there was only one Jedi master left.

Then Luke ****** it up by training a whole academy which starts the cycle all over again. He should've stuck to the rule of two and leave all other force sensitive ppl to figure it out on their own or not but by the end of RotJ he didn't even know much about the Jedi historically so I can see how he messed up. Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't prepare him for any of that.

Rule of two is Sith, not Jedi.

Yeah but didn't Yoda tell Jinn he couldn't have another apprentice and then that's when he said Obi-Wan is ready to be tested to be a Jedi knight?

Yoda made it pretty clear Jedi masters can't have more than one apprentice.

Luke basically had a whole school of apprentices with Ben possibly being his first apprentice.

That was bringing balance to the force?

Could've fooled me.

The problems I see is the force allows for a dark side, through anger and fear dark side users became the Sith. I'm not gonna get in to the books that are no longer canon but what is it you have to become a Jedi first and then go to the dark side which allows you to keep using the force? Balance to the force the whole time was about eradicating evil?

Cuz by the end of RotJ if that was Anakin bringing balance to the force it sounds like what really went down is that over decades it was a slow wiping out of the Sith and Jedi until there was only one Jedi master left.

Then Luke ****** it up by training a whole academy which starts the cycle all over again. He should've stuck to the rule of two and leave all other force sensitive ppl to figure it out on their own or not but by the end of RotJ he didn't even know much about the Jedi historically so I can see how he messed up. Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't prepare him for any of that.

Yeah man, its a little convoluted because of the books. I don't remember the exact details but in the Clone Wars cartoon all of that is explained. There's a episode where Anakin gets a glimpse of his future bringing the back the balance (from what I can recall).

From the movie though I don't know if the force is even considered out of balance? More like an awakening but not entirely sure.

It raises so many more questions about the force. For example, (I could be wrong) According to the new canon, for the first time, someone got a force vision from just touching a lightsaber.

Did Luke plan all of this? How was the force dormant due to Luke being in exile? Was it because he was the last Jedi? If it's dormant how is Kylo Ren using the force? When Snoke said "there's been an awakening" that was due to what?

Yeah it gets more complex. I assume it has to do with the # of force sensitive users out there.

In the OT, there was Darth Sidious and Vader with for a while Kenobi, Yoda (never mind that Sidious and Vader don't even seem to know he is alive or mention him. Vader keeps thinking it was Obi-Wan that only trained him) and Luke. By RotJ they're all dead accept Luke Vader killing Sidious balances the force I guess cuz he's the strongest or most evil dark side out there active.

Luke starts the academy, the force is still balanced. Academy gets slaughtered, Snoke starts the FIrst Order, Luke goes in to hiding, the force goes dormant? Rey shows up it awakens?

As for Rey, I assume some of that stuff was amnesia/memory wipe and touching the lightsaber triggered a memory since what she saw was mostly stuff in the past aside from seeing Kylo in the snow.

 

[sea manup]

yoda told gin that he couldnt have two students when yoda has classes with like 20 kids 

 

[clarkkent415]

yoda told gin that he couldnt have two students when yoda has classes with like 20 kids 

Teaching a class and having a personal Padawan to mentor, in Yoda's mind, is different .

 

[clarkkent415]

[/quote]
Yeah it gets more complex. I assume it has to do with the # of force sensitive users out there.

In the OT, there was Darth Sidious and Vader with for a while Kenobi, Yoda (never mind that Sidious and Vader don't even seem to know he is alive or mention him. Vader keeps thinking it was Obi-Wan that only trained him) and Luke. By RotJ they're all dead accept Luke Vader killing Sidious balances the force I guess cuz he's the strongest or most evil dark side out there active.

Luke starts the academy, the force is still balanced. Academy gets slaughtered, Snoke starts the FIrst Order, Luke goes in to hiding, the force goes dormant? Rey shows up it awakens?

As for Rey, I assume some of that stuff was amnesia/memory wipe and touching the lightsaber triggered a memory since what she saw was mostly stuff in the past aside from seeing Kylo in the snow.[/quote]

Yup. I want to also know who is the guy at the very beginning of the film? And how did Snoke come about?

So many questions. I hope there is going to be a anthology of films for what happens between 6 and 7.

 

[...So]

.

 

[sea manup]

 

 
yoda told gin that he couldnt have two students when yoda has classes with like 20 kids 

Yea, Yoda is the "do as I say, not as I do" type of being...

 

talks about how he senses and is worried about darkness in anakin

5 minutes later

tells anakin to go spy on palpatine 

 

[mr j 858]

Universal and Jurassic World's director give JJ, Kathleen Kennedy and Disney props:

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