***THE 2011 NFL QUARTERBACK THREAD*** (QBRs through week 9 pg. 16)

[university of nike]

I really wonder why more teams don't look at the Pats, Steelers, and now the Packers, and try to adopt their strategies:
QB who doesn't make mistakes.
Running game that's good enough to make the opposing team play the run.
Defensive front-7 that gets to the QB.
Better than average special teams.

I guess it just sounds easier than it is to implement.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by dland24

Ben is at Aikman level now?

Give me a break.

1 Probowl, 0 All-Pro, 0 MVPs, 0 SB MVPs put him in the same level as 6 Probowls, 3 All-Pro, 1 MVP, 1 SB MVP?

Ok CP.

Ben plays in the AFC with Peyton and Tom, and you wanna count pro bowls on his resume? 

 

Ben has a great defense, and great running game, with decent receivers and tight end. 
Aikamn had a GREAT run game, great defense, GREAT WR, and solid other receiver and tight end. 

Neither did major stat work in the regular season, BOTH had great postseason success. 

Ben, Troy, same level.  Slot Troy slightly ahead, sure why not.  Ben still has time left on the clock, Troy does not.  So don't be surprised if Ben passes him real soon.  Even without the magical pro bowls Troy made it too. 
  

 

[DeadsetAce]

Originally Posted by dland24

Ahhh my two favorite things to debate......

Originally Posted by University of Nike

As far as Tom's 2007 season... have y'all forgotten about Mr. Manning's 2004 season?

Tom in 2007 - 398 of 578 for 4,806 yards, 50 touchdowns, 8 picks, 117.2 rating.
Peyton in 2004 - 336 of 497 for 4,558 yards, 49 touchdowns, 10 picks, 121.1 rating.

Pretty similar, especially considering that Tom had Bill "run up the score!" Belichick and Peyton had Tony "Humble" Dungy.

Agree wholeheartedly with you Ches.  Peytons 04 year > Bradys 07 year

i do have an issue with that statement. chester's overall point comes into play big time with that statement. look at the supporting cast. look at peyton's supporting offensive cast versus bradys. sure brady had moss, but who else? i mean, unless we're all willing to admit wes welker is LEGIT

brady threw the ball more, sure. but we had to in order to win. we didn't have an all pro/pro bowl RB to rely on to move the chains. so we threw.

and as far as running up the score...this always cracks me up. really? at what point in a game is it running up the score? last 5 minutes? last 2? we had our 3 TD leads established by halftime, and we had our share of nailbiters as well...eagles, ravens, giants come to mind. and the biggest example of running up the score that season was against the ********, when MATT CASSEL, not brady, came into the game and was chucking the ball down the field with a 35 point lead. but looking back on all this, with our defense in recent years, it's actually become a need to run the score up. no lead is safe

lastly...more attempts...less INTs. that ratio of 50 to 8 is what's most impressive to me. just like last year's 4 INTs was mind boggling considering how much we have to throw.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by University of Nike


This next part is something that I'd like people to comment on, as well:
Have you guys noticed something about the Patriots that almost mirrors the Colts? Have you noticed that since their offense became better than their defense, they haven't won a Super Bowl? Elite QBs tend to win tons of regular season games, but can be stopped in the playoffs if they don't have defenses and running games. Isn't it weird that the best seasons of Tom Brady's career (MVPs, etc) are ending without rings, but when he was throwing for 20ish touchdowns to unnamed WRs they were winning Super Bowls?

Not lost on me at all.  In fact, I'm closing watching Pick 6 out in New York and seeing what he's gotten done so far as a bum.  Brady used to throw for 150 yards and that was a big game for him.  Same for Maria.  But Brady won, and the Jets have done well the last 2 years as well. 

Now Tom is Tom, and they aren't winning the same way.  The switch is extremely weird.  And like you said, Peyton has struggled with it as well. 

Add it all up, and it's what makes me VERY interested in Aaron Rodgers.  His run game sucked last year, he throws it around but was succesful, and that was against a defense that usually stops big QB play, AND without many of GB's weapon healthy.  So, is Rodgers going to make a habit out of this, or was that just a blip on the radar?  We'll see. 

As for NE isn't built for the postseason anymore like Fraj said, I wouldn't go that far.  At the end of the day, they still rely on a slot guy, and 2 SOLID young TE's in their passing game.  Not go routes or anything like that, the difference is they need at least 1 WR to take a Revis off of Welker, and spread the match ups out in their favor.  If Ocho helps even a little, just enough for Revis to have to cover him, and leave Cro on Welker, then the TE duo is going to be open more, Brady will have more room to work.  Not to mention Branch is still out there somewhere to be covered.  As for run game, the need just enough of it to keep the D honest, will they get it, I dunno.  The biggest help they could use is their defense getting a little stronger as well.  If that happens, and even if you slow Brady down to 20 points a game instead of 30, they could still be ok.  But this is all a long way off, deal with that in January. 

  

 

[university of nike]

Originally Posted by DeadsetAce

Originally Posted by dland24

Ahhh my two favorite things to debate......

Originally Posted by University of Nike

As far as Tom's 2007 season... have y'all forgotten about Mr. Manning's 2004 season?

Tom in 2007 - 398 of 578 for 4,806 yards, 50 touchdowns, 8 picks, 117.2 rating.
Peyton in 2004 - 336 of 497 for 4,558 yards, 49 touchdowns, 10 picks, 121.1 rating.

Pretty similar, especially considering that Tom had Bill "run up the score!" Belichick and Peyton had Tony "Humble" Dungy.

Agree wholeheartedly with you Ches.  Peytons 04 year > Bradys 07 year

i do have an issue with that statement. chester's overall point comes into play big time with that statement. look at the supporting cast. look at peyton's supporting offensive cast versus bradys. sure brady had moss, but who else? i mean, unless we're all willing to admit wes welker is LEGIT

brady threw the ball more, sure. but we had to in order to win. we didn't have an all pro/pro bowl RB to rely on to move the chains. so we threw.

and as far as running up the score...this always cracks me up. really? at what point in a game is it running up the score? last 5 minutes? last 2? we had our 3 TD leads established by halftime, and we had our share of nailbiters as well...eagles, ravens, giants come to mind. and the biggest example of running up the score that season was against the ********, when MATT CASSEL, not brady, came into the game and was chucking the ball down the field with a 35 point lead. but looking back on all this, with our defense in recent years, it's actually become a need to run the score up. no lead is safe

lastly...more attempts...less INTs. that ratio of 50 to 8 is what's most impressive to me. just like last year's 4 INTs was mind boggling considering how much we have to throw.

Ehhhh... Matt Cassel and Matt Guiterezz threw a total of 8 passes that season. Jim Sorgi threw 29 in 2004.

And we'll have to argue about the supporting cast. Brandon %+$@@+# Stokley had 1,000 receiving yards. Brandon Stokley. Think about that for a second. He hadn't sniffed 350 yards before that, and hasn't sniffed 650 yards since.

 

[ag 47]

Originally Posted by fraij da 5 11

Pats aren't built for January football... Its the same story its been the last 2-3 years. I have a feeling if they're playing at home or in NY they'll get bounced early again.

They will. Still can't stop a nosebleed on defense and the run game is very suspect.

The JETS are the only team, who realizes and who has the personnel, to pressure Brady and cover their receivers.

Strong possibility.

 

[DeadsetAce]

Originally Posted by University of Nike

Originally Posted by DeadsetAce

Originally Posted by dland24

Ahhh my two favorite things to debate......


Agree wholeheartedly with you Ches.  Peytons 04 year > Bradys 07 year

i do have an issue with that statement. chester's overall point comes into play big time with that statement. look at the supporting cast. look at peyton's supporting offensive cast versus bradys. sure brady had moss, but who else? i mean, unless we're all willing to admit wes welker is LEGIT

brady threw the ball more, sure. but we had to in order to win. we didn't have an all pro/pro bowl RB to rely on to move the chains. so we threw.

and as far as running up the score...this always cracks me up. really? at what point in a game is it running up the score? last 5 minutes? last 2? we had our 3 TD leads established by halftime, and we had our share of nailbiters as well...eagles, ravens, giants come to mind. and the biggest example of running up the score that season was against the ********, when MATT CASSEL, not brady, came into the game and was chucking the ball down the field with a 35 point lead. but looking back on all this, with our defense in recent years, it's actually become a need to run the score up. no lead is safe

lastly...more attempts...less INTs. that ratio of 50 to 8 is what's most impressive to me. just like last year's 4 INTs was mind boggling considering how much we have to throw.

Ehhhh... Matt Cassel and Matt Guiterezz threw a total of 8 passes that season. Jim Sorgi threw 29 in 2004.

And we'll have to argue about the supporting cast. Brandon %+$@@+# Stokley had 1,000 receiving yards. Brandon Stokley. Think about that for a second. He hadn't sniffed 350 yards before that, and hasn't sniffed 650 yards since.

to the first point...sorgi probably started a game, right? or played a majority of one? and that was after the record was set, i would assume. maybe, maybe not, i don't know. i do know brady broke the record in a dog fight with the giants. i would be interested to see how many TDs came in the last 5 minutes of a blow out. for both guys.

and as for the supporting casts...just off the top of my head:

colts: wayne, harrison, clark, stokley, edge, pollard, rhodes
pats: moss, welker, stallworth, caldwell, watson, faulk, maroney

i would think a slight edge to the colts. again, especially if we're not willing to finally give welker his due

 

[DeadsetAce]

hopefully we didn't derail this thread

 

[CP1708]

Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Edge is >>>>>>>> anything Tom has ever had.  That Indy offense in 04 was PERFECT.  Seriously, who would you upgrade on that team?  Gates at TE over Clark is really the only "hole" you can find.  Edge, Harrison and Wayne were fine and near the top of their positions.  Stoke bein the slot guy was an easy 1000, teams had to double or focus on Wayne and Marvin. 

Randy and Welker were great, but the rest of those guys were average at best.  Watson, Faulk, Maroney, Stalworth, role type guys that had space because of Moss and Welk, but no players that could bring defenses to their knees on their own. 

 

[university of nike]

Clark wasn't even the starter then - Pollard was. They barely combined for 700 yards.

And after looking at the team, and the numbers again, how in the blue +++* did the Colts not win it all? Sweet baby Jesus almighty. They should have paid every damn penny possible to keep that team together... goodness.

 

[dland24]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by dland24

Ben is at Aikman level now?

Give me a break.

1 Probowl, 0 All-Pro, 0 MVPs, 0 SB MVPs put him in the same level as 6 Probowls, 3 All-Pro, 1 MVP, 1 SB MVP?

Ok CP.

Ben plays in the AFC with Peyton and Tom, and you wanna count pro bowls on his resume? 

 

Ben has a great defense, and great running game, with decent receivers and tight end. 
Aikamn had a GREAT run game, great defense, GREAT WR, and solid other receiver and tight end. 

Neither did major stat work in the regular season, BOTH had great postseason success. 

Ben, Troy, same level.  Slot Troy slightly ahead, sure why not.  Ben still has time left on the clock, Troy does not.  So don't be surprised if Ben passes him real soon.  Even without the magical pro bowls Troy made it too. 
  

I really dont understand why you are hung up on Probowls. That is simply ONE of the reasons why Aikman's personal resume dwarfs Bens. What about the MVPs? All Pro teams made?I cant believe I am defending a Cowboy!!

 

[university of nike]

Originally Posted by DeadsetAce

hopefully we didn't derail this thread

Nah, it's all good discussion.

Do you guys think that Tom and Peyton will become coaches once they retire? I think Peyton should hang em up, let Indy draft Luck, and become the offensive coordinator. No need to risk paralysis, and Luck + Peyton would be an awesome combo.

 

[DeadsetAce]

i don't see tom coaching once he's done...although nothing would make me happier than to have him be the QB coach in NE. would love for him to show our QBs how to watch film, how to analyze it, and to see what he sees when he walks up to the line.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by dland24

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by dland24

Ben is at Aikman level now?

Give me a break.

1 Probowl, 0 All-Pro, 0 MVPs, 0 SB MVPs put him in the same level as 6 Probowls, 3 All-Pro, 1 MVP, 1 SB MVP?

Ok CP.

Ben plays in the AFC with Peyton and Tom, and you wanna count pro bowls on his resume? 

 

Ben has a great defense, and great running game, with decent receivers and tight end. 
Aikamn had a GREAT run game, great defense, GREAT WR, and solid other receiver and tight end. 

Neither did major stat work in the regular season, BOTH had great postseason success. 

Ben, Troy, same level.  Slot Troy slightly ahead, sure why not.  Ben still has time left on the clock, Troy does not.  So don't be surprised if Ben passes him real soon.  Even without the magical pro bowls Troy made it too. 
  

I really dont understand why you are hung up on Probowls. That is simply ONE of the reasons why Aikman's personal resume dwarfs Bens. What about the MVPs? All Pro teams made? I cant believe I am defending a Cowboy!!

You mean the MVP you made up?  Troy Aikman don't have no Got damn MVP man, the hell are you talkin about? 

Troy has 165 career NFL touchdowns, Ben has 146..........Ben is 29 years old. 

  Call me crazy, but he's about to dwarf Troy's magical numbers real quick. 

So neither has an MVP, Ben will have better numbers, Troy has 3, Ben has 2, Troy won a SB MVP, Ben lead his team down the field to win one, but the MVP went to Holmes.  Ok.  HUGE difference I'm lookin at right there.  I'm soooooooooo crazy for saying they are close. 

Lemme just pencil in Dan for a couple super bowl rings and an extra couple MVP's so I can tidy his resume up a bit too. 

    

 

[n ll k 3]

[table][tr][td]22[/td][td]Colt McCoy [/td][td]4.3[/td][td]2.9[/td][td]-4.6[/td][td]0.6[/td][td]3.2[/td][td]90[/td][td]1.3[/td][td]41.2[/td][/tr][/table]
Oh hai, Ches.

I guess I could see Peyton coaching, but I wouldn't bet on it.

My dude Tom?  Hell no.

He'll be traveling the world, modeling and smashing Vicky Secret $%*!*+.

Can't believe "br0ads" in censored.

 

[dmxfury]

Ben being compared to Aikman is a very good comparison. Both aren't the best pure QBs but have intangibles and win with what's around. If Ben gets another, it becomes an even more accurate one and he may be looking at Canton. The fact he didn't get MVP in 43 is a joke. There are a few on here that seem to discredit him at every turn, I'm surprised CrazyDave hasn't come in yet to criticize Ben ha ha




Peyton definitely a coach, no chance for Tommy

 

[dland24]

Sorry CP. Superbowl MVP.

 

[va757va]

Originally Posted by dmxfury

Ben being compared to Aikman is a very good comparison. Both aren't the best pure QBs but have intangibles and win with what's around. If Ben gets another, it becomes an even more accurate one and he may be looking at Canton. The fact he didn't get MVP in 43 is a joke. There are a few on here that seem to discredit him at every turn, I'm surprised CrazyDave hasn't come in yet to criticize Ben ha ha




Peyton definitely a coach, no chance for Tommy

C'mon fellas...Ill def give Ben his just due, hes a bonafide star and should end up in Canton..but to compare  him to troy isnt quite fair to Troy...
Ill be the first to admit, troy put up less than flattering passing numbers in comparison to Dan,Peyton,Brady..etc...He also never threw 500 passes in a season, if he did i guarantee he didnt do it twice..Hes definitely the more accurate of the two..I think its safe to say the Steelers D throughout Bens career was better than Troy and the Boys..He may very well end up with more touchdowns than troy, troy had the NFL ALL TIME LEADING RUSHER on his team..it takes a man alot of carries to attain that title..

The way I see it, without the steelers Ben wouldnt be an elite qb...the only reason i rank him with the elite qbs(brady,tom,rodgers) is because he has two rings which i have no choice but to respect...Put him anywhere but Pitt nd hes in the phillip rivers,tony romo B class qb list...

Ben is a good qb, ill admit it..Hes no Troy Aikman tho gentleman...You hear from anyone that knows football that troy was one of the more accurate passers EVER, not just the 90's...Mike Irvin says all the time if he ran a route with his eyes closes 9 times out of 10 itll hit him in the hands...

Troy took a back seat to Emmit, it was 22 first and foremost 88 and 8 after..and with about 20-25 throws a game aikman was an elite qb qand first ballot hall of famer...Ben isnt..period..

 

[dmxfury]

I don't put Ben in a group with Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers. I put him a tier below and I think he should be honestly. As I said, if he gets 3, well history says Canton is calling

 

[dland24]

Originally Posted by VA757VA


The way I see it, without the steelers Ben wouldnt be an elite qb...the only reason i rank him with the elite qbs(brady,tom,rodgers) is because he has two rings which i have no choice but to respect...Put him anywhere but Pitt nd hes in the phillip rivers,tony romo B class qb list...

Im sorry, but this is ******ed.

 

[DeadsetAce]

Originally Posted by dmxfury

I don't put Ben in a group with Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers. I put him a tier below and I think he should be honestly.

exactly how i feel. i've got him right under that top tier

 

[Maximus Meridius]

Brady rightnow is like Kobe in 08. He has his rings, stats, individual awards. He's just trying to cement his legacy. Peyton is still better IMO though. He took a terrible franchise and made them great. He went from 3 - 13 to 13 - 3 in his second year. He coulda threw 60 tds in 04 if Dungy wasn't calling off the dogs. As far as Ben and Troy, Troy wasn't in a system that let him put up big numbers. Troy wasn't as up and down as Ben is and he's one of the most accurate QB's ever. Ben might past him though cause he's only 29.

 

[CP1708]

Maximus Meridius wrote:

---

Brady rightnow is like Kobe in 08. He has his rings, stats, individual awards. He's just trying to cement his legacy. Peyton is still better IMO though. He took a terrible franchise and made them great. He went from 3 - 13 to 13 - 3 in his second year. He coulda threw 60 tds in 04 if Dungy wasn't calling off the dogs. As far as Ben and Troy, Troy wasn't in a system that let him put up big numbers. Troy wasn't as up and down as Ben is and he's one of the most accurate QB's ever. Ben might past him though cause he's only 29.
Yeah cuz when I think Pittsburgh Steelers, I think aerial attack. 

  How is Pitt's system generated for Ben to put up big numbers? 

  Do you guys proofread the @#$% ya'll say? 


Troy Aikman was a fantastic leader and a solid QB.  But he was a game manager.  Not a Trent Dilfer type game manager, he was certainly a lot better than that, but he was not a guy that would change much if he played today.  He wouldn't be out here in the shotgun 5 wide slingin it around like Phil Rivers.  He was a safe, conservative QB.  He handed off to Emmitt, used his security blanket in Novacek, had his big play WR when he needed him (Irvin), and when the defense was sagging in on them, he would throw that 60 yarder to Harper to stretch things out.  He did this every single game.  He was clinical with it.  But to act like Dallas's system held his numbers in check, that's ridiculous.  Troy was never going to run the run and shoot somewhere and go Warren Moon on us all.
Ben actually can and will play both ways.  He'll hand off 40 times in one game, and play 5 wide in another, depending on matchups or situation.  I think people are starting to elevate Troy's game a bit not really remembering how methodical those teams were. 

  

 

[651akathepaul]

Aikman is one of the all time efficient quarterbacks in NFL history. That should not hurt him here. He was a top tier quarterback in the 90's who did exactly what he was supposed to do. Some might say facilitate, but when you have 22 and 88, efficiency is the name of the game. Those methodical drives were killer and no one was better at it than Aikman.

He was and is understated as to what he meant to that football team. We know Smith and Irvin were talented, but I'll even go a step further and say their abilities were fully optimized because of just how good Aikman was.

I'm hard pressed to believe that in today's NFL he wouldn't be throwing for the huge numbers as well, if that's what defenses and playcalling dictated.

The fact that Aikman was so fully aware of offensive and defensive schematics and how well he was at doing all the right things at all the right times is a big reason why we look so fondly on Smith and Irvin and others.

Saying that he had great weapons, to me, is a true testament of just how efficient Aikman was.

Big Ben is good, but he ain't that good. He's a second tier quarterback in today's NFL...In today's NFL bears repeating. He has a lot of qualities that make him a very good quarterback, but I won't overlook some of the factors that have contributed to his Super Bowl success. Especially, the first time around.

People find it easy to shrug off how great defenses are to helping a quarterbacks legacy at times and it shouldn't be set aside. It really shouldn't. Ya'll know Mark Sanchez...He's not that good, but that is branded with an AFC Championship mentality.

All in all, Ben is a very good QB and will most likley be a HOF'er, but I'm taking Aikman's back breaking, methodical drives and consistent efficiency every time.

 

[Maximus Meridius]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Maximus Meridius wrote:

---

Brady rightnow is like Kobe in 08. He has his rings, stats, individual awards. He's just trying to cement his legacy. Peyton is still better IMO though. He took a terrible franchise and made them great. He went from 3 - 13 to 13 - 3 in his second year. He coulda threw 60 tds in 04 if Dungy wasn't calling off the dogs. As far as Ben and Troy, Troy wasn't in a system that let him put up big numbers. Troy wasn't as up and down as Ben is and he's one of the most accurate QB's ever. Ben might past him though cause he's only 29.

Yeah cuz when I think Pittsburgh Steelers, I think aerial attack. 

  How is Pitt's system generated for Ben to put up big numbers? 

  Do you guys proofread the @#$% ya'll say?  


I never said it was. Ben is not better than Troy period. Not as accurate and not as efficient. Ben can have a 3tds 340yrds game then have 2ints and 2 fumbles the next. I like Ben, dude is clutch and he's tough as nails but he's not better than or as good as Troy Aikman man.