The Official NBA PG Thread

[pmatic]

Who really uses plus minus though?

 

[JD617]

PAR (points + assists + rebounds) would be a better indication of productivity though I might even take it a step further and give you points for blocks too, subtract 1 for turnover and fouls and it would just give you the net amount of positive things you did. These advance stats are garbage though, they create more wholes and misconceptions than they fill.
That's funny, because if you take it a few more steps, you come up with PER. You're calling advanced stats garbage in the very same post that you're coming up with your own advanced stat.

 

[JD617]

PAR (points + assists + rebounds) would be a better indication of productivity though I might even take it a step further and give you points for blocks too, subtract 1 for turnover and fouls and it would just give you the net amount of positive things you did. These advance stats are garbage though, they create more wholes and misconceptions than they fill.
That's funny, because if you take it a few more steps, you come up with PER. You're calling advanced stats garbage in the very same post that you're coming up with your own advanced stat.

 

[JD617]

Originally Posted by Dwele Farooq Al Suleed Afzul

Originally Posted by JD617

You sure as hell have been clinging to your conclusions though, using advanced stats because that's really all you have, but then when it doesn't align with your opinion now the sample size is too small and the difference is too minute but you were the one talking about "far and away."


According to , our best lineup is Royal Ivey, Morris Peterson, Kevin Durant, DJ White, BJ Mullens and we'd win by 85.
 

You're really not trying to understand or look at things from another angle, so just forget it. I already said that using numbers for a guy who has played 22 minutes in the entire season is pointless, so I don't know why you ignored that.

And therefore exposes its flaw and why using it as an indicator of anything is futile. Kevin Durant has the worst plus minus of those 5, Russell Westbrook's is negative though in many circles he is seen as our most important player. most of these advanced stats are stupid. PAR (points + assists + rebounds) would be a better indication of productivity though I might even take it a step further and give you points for blocks too, subtract 1 for turnover and fouls and it would just give you the net amount of positive things you did. These advance stats are garbage though, they create more wholes and misconceptions than they fill.



Plus/minus is not that good of a stat at all, I'll readily admit that. I almost never even pay attention to it. I used it one time just to show that the Hornets don't seem to suffer when David West isn't on the court, that's it, (and it was secondary to other things I was saying) and now you want to put all these other words in my mouth, like "But Joe Schmo played 3 minutes and scored 5 points while shooting 100% from the field, he'd be like Wilt Chamberlain if he played a whole game!"

How about we just talk about something else, like Raymond Felton.

 

[JD617]

Originally Posted by Dwele Farooq Al Suleed Afzul

Originally Posted by JD617

You sure as hell have been clinging to your conclusions though, using advanced stats because that's really all you have, but then when it doesn't align with your opinion now the sample size is too small and the difference is too minute but you were the one talking about "far and away."


According to , our best lineup is Royal Ivey, Morris Peterson, Kevin Durant, DJ White, BJ Mullens and we'd win by 85.
 

You're really not trying to understand or look at things from another angle, so just forget it. I already said that using numbers for a guy who has played 22 minutes in the entire season is pointless, so I don't know why you ignored that.

And therefore exposes its flaw and why using it as an indicator of anything is futile. Kevin Durant has the worst plus minus of those 5, Russell Westbrook's is negative though in many circles he is seen as our most important player. most of these advanced stats are stupid. PAR (points + assists + rebounds) would be a better indication of productivity though I might even take it a step further and give you points for blocks too, subtract 1 for turnover and fouls and it would just give you the net amount of positive things you did. These advance stats are garbage though, they create more wholes and misconceptions than they fill.



Plus/minus is not that good of a stat at all, I'll readily admit that. I almost never even pay attention to it. I used it one time just to show that the Hornets don't seem to suffer when David West isn't on the court, that's it, (and it was secondary to other things I was saying) and now you want to put all these other words in my mouth, like "But Joe Schmo played 3 minutes and scored 5 points while shooting 100% from the field, he'd be like Wilt Chamberlain if he played a whole game!"

How about we just talk about something else, like Raymond Felton.

 

[kiddin like jason]

Plus/minus really has nothing to do with individual players at all. It really has no value anywhere.

If you're a starter on a really good team (top five), your plus/minus is generally going to be very high. Opposite for that of starters on really bad teams.

Starters on the other 20 teams fluctuate. Usually they're in the negative even if you're a kind of good team, because the games those teams are winning are probably close games, and they aren't allergic to being blown out in their losses.

Basically, there aren't really any surprises with it.

And if you're looking at it in regards to a player that hardly plays, it's especially worthless.

Kevin Love has the worst plus/minus in the league. He plays a lot, the Timberwolves lose a lot and by a lot.

 

[kiddin like jason]

Plus/minus really has nothing to do with individual players at all. It really has no value anywhere.

If you're a starter on a really good team (top five), your plus/minus is generally going to be very high. Opposite for that of starters on really bad teams.

Starters on the other 20 teams fluctuate. Usually they're in the negative even if you're a kind of good team, because the games those teams are winning are probably close games, and they aren't allergic to being blown out in their losses.

Basically, there aren't really any surprises with it.

And if you're looking at it in regards to a player that hardly plays, it's especially worthless.

Kevin Love has the worst plus/minus in the league. He plays a lot, the Timberwolves lose a lot and by a lot.

 

[JD617]

That's true, Dwyane Wade at one point when the Heat were atrocious had one of the worst in the league. I shouldn't have even brought that one up.

 

[JD617]

That's true, Dwyane Wade at one point when the Heat were atrocious had one of the worst in the league. I shouldn't have even brought that one up.

 

[proshares]

Some folks need to stick to General.

 

[proshares]

Some folks need to stick to General.

 

[jehlers02]

This thread went to *%+# with absurdness.

 

[jehlers02]

This thread went to *%+# with absurdness.

 

[crazy dav0]

wow ... i'm surprised to see so many go against cp on here... cp still holds #2 based on doing it for a while, assist to turnover ratios, ability to run that position and ability to create for others. he is still a beast.... just not the best... young dudes is catching up fast...

deron
cp3
rose


no need to get heated ... the idea is that these guys can do it all ... hence top 3

 

[crazy dav0]

wow ... i'm surprised to see so many go against cp on here... cp still holds #2 based on doing it for a while, assist to turnover ratios, ability to run that position and ability to create for others. he is still a beast.... just not the best... young dudes is catching up fast...

deron
cp3
rose


no need to get heated ... the idea is that these guys can do it all ... hence top 3

 

[mayhemmonkey000]

Originally Posted by JD617


That's true, Dwyane Wade at one point when the Heat were atrocious had one of the worst in the league. I shouldn't have even brought that one up.

I wouldn't say is completely worthless. It should only be used when comparing players on the same team.

 

[mayhemmonkey000]

Originally Posted by JD617


That's true, Dwyane Wade at one point when the Heat were atrocious had one of the worst in the league. I shouldn't have even brought that one up.

I wouldn't say is completely worthless. It should only be used when comparing players on the same team.

 

[everysingletime]

1Chris Paul, NO2434.2.61638.810.022.61.313.87.626.62191.46.4
2Russell Westbrook, OKC2536.8.55025.512.130.75.810.98.425.44198.56.6
3Deron Williams, UTAH2638.0.60430.710.227.32.110.36.325.00206.66.9
4Steve Nash, PHX2133.9.60635.312.325.72.310.66.423.77135.54.5
5Derrick Rose, CHI2238.3.54023.810.630.32.910.06.521.95137.74.6
6Devin Harris, NJ2230.8.58328.612.325.80.79.75.121.09101.93.4
7Stephen Curry, GS2033.7.59321.812.425.41.410.05.521.05101.03.4
8Tony Parker, SA2333.0.55728.310.224.11.710.05.920.44106.83.6
9Shannon Brown, LAL2418.9.60711.28.120.73.810.37.219.9260.52.0
10Raymond Felton, NY2538.6.57630.912.622.33.38.15.719.75126.24.2

This is the top 10 of point guards in terms of player efficiency rating.

Notice someone missing from the top ten ?

 

[everysingletime]

1Chris Paul, NO2434.2.61638.810.022.61.313.87.626.62191.46.4
2Russell Westbrook, OKC2536.8.55025.512.130.75.810.98.425.44198.56.6
3Deron Williams, UTAH2638.0.60430.710.227.32.110.36.325.00206.66.9
4Steve Nash, PHX2133.9.60635.312.325.72.310.66.423.77135.54.5
5Derrick Rose, CHI2238.3.54023.810.630.32.910.06.521.95137.74.6
6Devin Harris, NJ2230.8.58328.612.325.80.79.75.121.09101.93.4
7Stephen Curry, GS2033.7.59321.812.425.41.410.05.521.05101.03.4
8Tony Parker, SA2333.0.55728.310.224.11.710.05.920.44106.83.6
9Shannon Brown, LAL2418.9.60711.28.120.73.810.37.219.9260.52.0
10Raymond Felton, NY2538.6.57630.912.622.33.38.15.719.75126.24.2

This is the top 10 of point guards in terms of player efficiency rating.

Notice someone missing from the top ten ?

 

[JD617]

Originally Posted by MayhemMonkey000

Originally Posted by JD617

That's true, Dwyane Wade at one point when the Heat were atrocious had one of the worst in the league. I shouldn't have even brought that one up.

I wouldn't say is completely worthless. It should only be used when comparing players on the same team.

Which is what I did, even though it's still hugely flawed in that way, so I should've just left that out completely. Mistake by me. I don't know why he only focused on that though, because that was a tiny part of what I was saying. 

All I was trying to say before that dude's wild tangents is that the Hornets were a top 5 defensive team in the league (down to 6th after last night) and Chris has the best defensive rating on the team (other than DJ Mbenga who plays far less minutes), so there's no way he's a defensive liability.

 

[JD617]

Originally Posted by MayhemMonkey000

Originally Posted by JD617

That's true, Dwyane Wade at one point when the Heat were atrocious had one of the worst in the league. I shouldn't have even brought that one up.

I wouldn't say is completely worthless. It should only be used when comparing players on the same team.

Which is what I did, even though it's still hugely flawed in that way, so I should've just left that out completely. Mistake by me. I don't know why he only focused on that though, because that was a tiny part of what I was saying. 

All I was trying to say before that dude's wild tangents is that the Hornets were a top 5 defensive team in the league (down to 6th after last night) and Chris has the best defensive rating on the team (other than DJ Mbenga who plays far less minutes), so there's no way he's a defensive liability.

 

[mjsaver]

Notice a few people in there who should never associated with the phrase top 10 ?

 

[mjsaver]

Notice a few people in there who should never associated with the phrase top 10 ?

 

[everysingletime]

lol.  well my point was when you deal with advanced statistics, just like when you do any math it takes only one thing to mess the whole equation up.

like if you leave a decimal point off somewhere you're gunna get a totally different answer than you want.

%+$% like player efficiency rating, win shares, defensive rating, etc.  is an imperfect science that shouldn't be used to argue a player's skill.

my guess is that rondo was left off of that list because his free throw percentages and three point percentages stink. 

advanced statistics should be used as a guide, not to win arguments. 

 

[scuse7]

Originally Posted by amel223

1 Chris Paul, NO 24 34.2 .616 38.8 10.0 22.6 1.3 13.8 7.6 26.62 191.4 6.4
2 Russell Westbrook, OKC 25 36.8 .550 25.5 12.1 30.7 5.8 10.9 8.4 25.44 198.5 6.6
3 Deron Williams, UTAH 26 38.0 .604 30.7 10.2 27.3 2.1 10.3 6.3 25.00 206.6 6.9
4 Steve Nash, PHX 21 33.9 .606 35.3 12.3 25.7 2.3 10.6 6.4 23.77 135.5 4.5
5 Derrick Rose, CHI 22 38.3 .540 23.8 10.6 30.3 2.9 10.0 6.5 21.95 137.7 4.6
6 Devin Harris, NJ 22 30.8 .583 28.6 12.3 25.8 0.7 9.7 5.1 21.09 101.9 3.4
7 Stephen Curry, GS 20 33.7 .593 21.8 12.4 25.4 1.4 10.0 5.5 21.05 101.0 3.4
8 Tony Parker, SA 23 33.0 .557 28.3 10.2 24.1 1.7 10.0 5.9 20.44 106.8 3.6
9 Shannon Brown, LAL 24 18.9 .607 11.2 8.1 20.7 3.8 10.3 7.2 19.92 60.5 2.0
10 Raymond Felton, NY 25 38.6 .576 30.9 12.6 22.3 3.3 8.1 5.7 19.75 126.2 4.2

This is the top 10 of point guards in terms of player efficiency rating.

Notice someone missing from the top ten ?

I think I got it, Rondo just isn't a top pg.