Uber Driver killed by 13 and 15 yr old in DC

[dblplay1212]

non enforcement of laws is not "empathy."

Depends on the law. In Alabama, it's illegal to pay Dominoes on Sunday. In Indiana, "talking behind someone's back" is illegal and you can't catch a fish with your bare hands. In Kansas, it's illegal to put ice cream on a cherry pie. You can be fined $25 for flirting in New York and it's illegal to wear slippers after 10pm.

Do you think all of those laws on the books should be enforced?

Read more dumb laws here: https://forestgrove.pgusd.org/documents/Computer-Lab/Strange-State-Laws.pdf

people do this with homeless encampments.
there are solutions for homelessness, non enforcement of people camping in public is not one of them.

Ok do those things. They aren't doing it by choice. They are doing it bc they don't have anywhere to go. We've cut off all safety nets for people and now we want to criminalize just existing? Na **** that.

it just pisses regular working people off, and radicalizes them against progressive politics.
Same with fare evasion, and public drug use.

All public transportation should be free. That solves the issue you have.

 

[fdub]

Nah it annoyed the h*** out of me. I was in DC and my girl made me get a metro card only for me to watch people just jump the turnstiles.

Like what I pay for if they ride for free?

It’s DC and the law makers are Pro Criminal…

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Depends on the law. In Alabama, it's illegal to pay Dominoes on Sunday. In Indiana, "talking behind someone's back" is illegal and you can't catch a fish with your bare hands. In Kansas, it's illegal to put ice cream on a cherry pie. You can be fined $25 for flirting in New York and it's illegal to wear slippers after 10pm.

Do you think all of those laws on the books should be enforced?

Read more dumb laws here: https://forestgrove.pgusd.org/documents/Computer-Lab/Strange-State-Laws.pdf

Obviously. I don't know why you are being obtuse about this. Do you think when I wrote that I was referring to this random goofy trivia question laws?
be serious, obviously not.

Random laws still on the books from 1887 is not the same as laws against, encampments, fair evasion and public drug use.

Ok do those things. They aren't doing it by choice. They are doing it bc they don't have anywhere to go. We've cut off all safety nets for people and now we want to criminalize just existing? Na **** that.

if you want to house homeless people, you should build more housing.
the problem is many big city politicians don't want to do that, so it's easier to advocate for criminalization.

it's fake empathy designed to not adress the real problem. do not be fooled.

 

[WASHED KING]

Obviously. I don't know why you are being obtuse about this. Do you think when I wrote that I was referring to this random goofy trivia question laws?
be serious, obviously not.

Random laws still on the books from 1887 is not the same as laws against, encampments, fair evasion and public drug use.



if you want to house homeless people, you should build more housing.
the problem is many big city politicians don't want to do that, so it's easier to advocate for criminalization.

it's fake empathy designed to not adress the real problem. do not be fooled.

All public transportation should be free. That solves the issue you have.

America??? Meet the demand for housing????

I have a better chance of hitting the lottery.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

All public transportation should be free. That solves the issue you have.

the cost of public transit in america is not what is preventing people from using it.
it's the fact that it sucks

especially in comparison to just about every major advanced economy.
even Canada, a country that has pretty crappy public transit, is still way better than any non NYC american city.


again "public transit should be free" is another fake emphatic position that doesn't address the real problem.

if you want to create a a no fare bus service that sucks and that only poor people and homeless people use.
that's a great way to starve public transportation of public support and radicalize the populace against it.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

America??? Meet the demand for housing????

I have a better chance of hitting the lottery.

tell me about it. but I think it's really important to be clear.
people fighting for the right for people to have encampments while not doing anything on housing supply, are liars and frauds, and deserve nothing but scorn.


it's totally fake.

we need to be 100% crystal clear. homelessness is a housing problem.

 

[dblplay1212]

the cost of public transit in america is not what is preventing people from using it.
it's the fact that it sucks

especially in comparison to just about every major advanced economy.
even Canada, a country that has pretty crappy public transit, is still way better than any non NYC american city.


again "public transit should be free" is another fake emphatic position that doesn't address the real problem.

if you want to create a a no fare bus service that sucks and that only poor people and homeless people use.
that's a great way to starve public transportation of public support and radicalize the populace against it.

Why can't it be a good free public trans system that everyone benefits from?

Maybe if we stop spending half our budgets on police and housing people in prison for dumb **** we could spend some money on things that we as a society actually benefit from.

 

[dblplay1212]

tell me about it. but I think it's really important to be clear.
people fighting for the right for people to have encampments while not doing anything on housing supply, are liars and frauds, and deserve nothing but scorn.


it's totally fake.

we need to be 100% crystal clear. homelessness is a housing problem.

On the flip side, people wanting to put people in jail bc they live in a tent while not offering a solution for them to have somewhere else to live are evil evil people.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Why can't it be a good free public trans system that everyone benefits from?

Maybe if we stop spending half our budgets on police and housing people in prison for dumb **** we could spend some money on things that we as a society actually benefit from.

1. biggest part of city budgets go to schools.

2. America is not an outlier in how much it spends on police, almost all these countries above USA have better public transit while spending more on police.

to get better public transit you need higher density (build more housing) + higher taxes.

fighting for transit to be free in america in its current state is just a recipe for starving it of resources.
transit in USA is already a very class segregated thing.

if it's free and filled with homeless and destitute.
the broad public is not going to vote to increase its funding. you'll just radicalize them against it.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

On the flip side, people wanting to put people in jail bc they live in a tent while not offering a solution for them to have somewhere else to live are evil evil people.

I agree,
but you play into their hands when you don't take public disorder seriously.


people will trade justice for order.
it's been shown time and time again.

you must advocate for justice AND order.

 

[dblplay1212]

1. biggest part of city budgets go to schools.

2. America is not an outlier in how much it spends on police, almost all these countries above USA have better public transit while spending more on police.

to get better public transit you need higher density (build more housing) + higher taxes.

fighting for transit to be free in america in its current state is just a recipe for starving it of resources.
transit in USA is already a very class segregated thing.

if it's free and filled with homeless and destitute.
the broad public is not going to vote to increase its funding. you'll just radicalize them against it.

A lot of cities look like this. This is Jacksonville, where I live.

 

[finessence]

Its like when people blame pharma for drug addicts.

They love blaming street level drug dealers though

 

[dblplay1212]

I agree,
but you play into their hands when you don't take public disorder seriously.


people will trade justice for order.
it's been shown time and time again.

you must advocate for justice AND order.

People with money will trade justice for order bc justice doesn't apply to them. Let's be clear about this. People with money don't give a damn about people without money. They'll sign up for having people arrested for things that don't apply to them without thinking twice. People are selfish af. NIMBY are terrible people.

I'm being general here, there are exceptions.

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

It’s DC and the law makers are Pro Criminal…

There’s never turnstile jumping in NYC.

Or, even more common, people asking you for a swipe as you come out of the turnstile yourself.

That never happens because New York is not pro-criminal.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

A lot of cities look like this. This is Jacksonville, where I live.

the fact that I don't see education in the pie chart means it's almost certainly ********.
i'm guessing it's an artifact of how school funding is structured in Jacksonville.

a quick google reveals Duval County 2.6 Billion is the budget for schools.

compared to 1.41 billion budget for Jacksonville. Im guessing school funding is done at the county level? and not city level?


point is police budget is not what is preventing you from having good public transit.

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

Non-enforcement in most contexts is a bad hack to get around dysfunctional legislative bodies and corrupt and biased policing.

It’s stupid to talk about whether it’s appropriate without looking at the conditions that engender it.

And while it’s all good and noble to talk about addressing the “root cause” of a problem, it’s also somewhat cynical and disingenuous to do so without addressing the decades of failure that got us to the point of non-enforcement.

“Just fix public transportation”
“Just fix housing, the criminalization of poverty, and the mistreatment of the house less by police”
“Just fix biased traffic stops and disproportionate use of police violence against certain communities “

Just!

It’s “funny” how all this stuff just keeps coming back around. The last time I remember people getting upset about fate evasion was in the run-up to Rudy’s broken window policing strategy in NYC. That worked out super well for black and brown communities, didn’t it?

 

[dblplay1212]

point is police budget is not what is preventing you from having good public transit.

Point is we spent entirely too much money on police/military.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

People with money will trade justice for order bc justice doesn't apply to them. Let's be clear about this. People with money don't give a damn about people without money. They'll sign up for having people arrested for things that don't apply to them without thinking twice. People are selfish af. NIMBY are terrible people.

I'm being general here, there are exceptions.

Nah most people are selfish. but you can appeal to their selfishness.

the path to low crime, safe, neighborhoods, with great public services, great schools.
is high density, efficient public transit, and robust social services.


nimby single family home fiefdoms lead to crime and disorder.


but telling people "oh don't be afraid of our unhoused neighbors!!"
is just a losing argument.


the YIMBY is winning, don't adopt a doomer attitude.
the fight is winnable.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Non-enforcement in most contexts is a bad hack to get around dysfunctional legislative bodies and corrupt and biased policing.

It’s stupid to talk about whether it’s appropriate without looking at the conditions that engender it.

And while it’s all good and noble to talk about addressing the “root cause” of a problem, it’s also somewhat cynical and disingenuous to do so without addressing the decades of failure that got us to the point of non-enforcement.

“Just fix public transportation”
“Just fix housing, the criminalization of poverty, and the mistreatment of the house less by police”
“Just fix biased traffic stops and disproportionate use of police violence against certain communities “

Just!

It’s “funny” how all this stuff just keeps coming back around. The last time I remember people getting upset about fate evasion was in the run-up to Rudy’s broken window policing strategy in NYC. That worked out super well for black and brown communities, didn’t it?

i didn't say it would be easy.

but the non enforcement gets you FURTHER away from that goal.
people don't like public disorder. we see this backlash constantly.

non enforcement is a losing argument that leads to more pain and misery in the long run.


and people use it as a way to avoid addressing the real problem. I live in a city filled with "progressive" city councilers
who weep for our "unhoused neighbors" in one breath.

and opposed new housing in another. it's important to be clear.
its a losing strategy that is used by liars and frauds to portray fake empathy while solving no problems.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Point is we spent entirely too much money on police/military.

Whatever amount you think is 'too much"
it doesn't have anything to do with your bad public transit.

It's not stopping any city from having better public transit.

 

[dblplay1212]

Whatever amount you think is 'too much"
it doesn't have anything to do with your bad public transit.

It's not stopping any city from having better public transit.

Sure. the money is there. But people with money are the ones that make the decisions and they don't care about public transportation bc they don't use it, at least in most cities. Public transportation is viewed as for poor people and we as a society just don't care about them. People with money would prefer to spend more on cops to keep the poor people away from them or build a new stadium for them to go watch a game.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Sure. the money is there. But people with money are the ones that make the decisions and they don't care about public transportation bc they don't use it, at least in most cities. Public transportation is viewed as for poor people and we as a society just don't care about them. People with money would prefer to spend more on cops to keep the poor people away from them or build a new stadium for them to go watch a game.

so you need to make public transit better so people use it.

In NYC people with money use public transit, because for all it's problems it's
still gets you places fast.

this doomer attitude "omg rich people don't care" like this is the purge or something is just nonsense. and learned helplessness.

if you make public transit fast and efficient people will use it.
and it's possible to sell the populace on if it's fast and efficient.


free fare does nothing to further those aims.
politics is hard, but it's not impossible.

 

[dblplay1212]

so you need to make public transit better so people use it.

In NYC people with money use public transit, because for all it's problems it's
still gets you places fast.

this doomer attitude "omg rich people don't care" like this is the purge or something is just nonsense. and learned helplessness.

if you make public transit fast and efficient people will use it.
and it's possible to sell the populace on if it's fast and efficient.


free fare does nothing to further those aims.
politics is hard, but it's not impossible.

It's not nonsense. By most measurables, I would be considered to have money. I'm far from helpless. I live around these people. You could make public transportation the speed of light and white people with money still aren't riding here it bc poor people and black people use it and those people are scary to them.

And let's be real, people with money in NYC don't use public transportation. They have drivers. Using public transportation in NYC doesn't mean you're poor but it means you can't afford a driver. I can post the video of a public school with buses lined up and a few blocks away a private school with 50 black cards waiting on kids if I need to. Most people there don't use it out of a desire to do so. And it's for the same reason people with money here wouldn't want it. People with money don't want to be around people they deem beneath. Just keep it a buck.

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

And let's be real, people with money in NYC don't use public transportation. They have drivers.

I know many, many people with 7 figure incomes (after tax) that use the subway.

You are absolutely correct that many rich people opt out of public services, but NYC is unique among the places I’ve lived in that there’s kind of a civic pride among even high earners that compels them to not opt out of what it essentially means to “be a New Yorker”

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

i didn't say it would be easy.

And I called it a “bad hack”.

But given the intrinsic nature of selective enforcement in /any/ legal system, I’d rather LE be instructed to make choices that lead to better, if admittedly not ideal, outcomes for disempowered people.

If you oversee a police department or DA’s office, you don’t have the ability to fix housing. We also have plenty of evidence that you don’t have the ability to hold your LEOs accountable for abuse. You do, however, often have the discretion to decide what you will prosecute and allocate your officers to. So it’s that choice and those options that should be criticized.

Given that prosecutors and officers are scarce resources, do we really think they should be focused on actively enforcing restrictions where we have plenty of evidence that the enforcement comes at a greater social cost than the law-breaking?

Yes, we as a “society” should fix all that other stuff, but that’s not the decision or the options at hand.

And look, I’m more ambivalent about this than I’m coming off. I understand, and to a good extent agree with your argument. But I don’t think the cost/benefit is as clear as you’re making it out to be - especially when we have lots and lots of experience at what things look like when these laws are enforced.