What to expect when I start Law School....

[capricdragon]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Originally Posted by capricdragon

^exactly. If you don't pass the Bar, what's the point.

IMO the top tier schools would only be extremely beneficial if you're plan is to network yourself with the large firms in the big metro cities through fraternities/sororities.
In this economy its who you know... not what your diploma has printed at the top.

Lol.  Often who you know is predicated on that diploma; alumni networks at good schools are deep. 
A partner at Jenner Block told me that they look at everyone at Harvard but only the top 5% at a place like John Marshall School of Law... you're fooling yourself if you think law school prestige doesn't matter. This isn't like med school. I don't know what people want to do actually do in this thread but the worse your law school is, the less opportunities you will have. The lawyer market is completely wack. Too many graduates and not enough jobs.

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_job_seekers

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/01/16/law-blog-qa-kirsten-wolf-law-school-naysayer/

Of course you have to pass the bar. What kind of simplistic conjecture is that? 

I definitely agree with you there.

 

[capricdragon]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Originally Posted by capricdragon

^exactly. If you don't pass the Bar, what's the point.

IMO the top tier schools would only be extremely beneficial if you're plan is to network yourself with the large firms in the big metro cities through fraternities/sororities.
In this economy its who you know... not what your diploma has printed at the top.

Lol.  Often who you know is predicated on that diploma; alumni networks at good schools are deep. 
A partner at Jenner Block told me that they look at everyone at Harvard but only the top 5% at a place like John Marshall School of Law... you're fooling yourself if you think law school prestige doesn't matter. This isn't like med school. I don't know what people want to do actually do in this thread but the worse your law school is, the less opportunities you will have. The lawyer market is completely wack. Too many graduates and not enough jobs.

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_job_seekers

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/01/16/law-blog-qa-kirsten-wolf-law-school-naysayer/

Of course you have to pass the bar. What kind of simplistic conjecture is that? 

I definitely agree with you there.

 

[dr mantis toboggan]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Originally Posted by capricdragon

Originally Posted by cristobal

That all being said ~~~  the school you go to is irrelevant.  

Terrible advice. 
I recently talked to a partner and  recruiting executive at Kirkland Ellis (world headquarters in Chicago) and she said to go to the best school you can get into.  I could post 20 articles right now demonstrating how terrible the job market is for people outside top schools and even in top schools. HARVARD had to temper the expectations of  a recent graduating class. Even top firms like Skadden Arps are offering a year away for 80k to curb costs. I just spent an extended period analyzing the state of the legal profession from every angle so I think I'm well versed in the topic. 

Read One L

Read The Destruction of Young Lawyers

Read The Lost Lawyer 

Read The Partnership (for those looking to go into big law... you will really see what's up)

Not trying to discourage anyone; like I said before and what someone I really respect told me: "forewarned is forearmed"

+1 on it being terrible advice.  The name on your diploma will be with you for the rest of your life, so you should definitely consider the prestige of the institution in the legal community.  However, I don't believe that the general assertion that you should go to the highest-ranked school you get into is necessarily true.  The T14, UT (Texas), and Vanderbilt have national reputations; pretty much every other school has a regional reputation.  If you know that you want to work in the Pacific Northwest, going to law school at Iowa might not be the best idea.  You won't get as many chances to network with members of the legal community, and the legal community might not have much experience hiring or working with Iowa law students (very important in the job search). 
When my friends ask me about choosing a law school, I tell them to go to:

1) a T14, if they aren't debt averse

2) UT or Vandy

3) a school in the top ~60 with a strong regional reputation

4) a school ranked below the 60's only if it is located in the city where they want to work

The one exception to this rule would be Howard for African Americans; they place graduates into biglaw at a level disproportionate to their rank.  I know that I want to work in Dallas, so I chose SMU over my other two options, Illinois and Wake Forest.  Illinois is ranked ~30 spots higher than SMU, but is 800 miles away from Dallas.  I'm extremely happy with my decision.

I'll say it again: anyone interested in law school needs to sign up for an account on TopLawSchools.com.  There is a wealth of information on the website.

 

[dr mantis toboggan]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Originally Posted by capricdragon

Originally Posted by cristobal

That all being said ~~~  the school you go to is irrelevant.  

Terrible advice. 
I recently talked to a partner and  recruiting executive at Kirkland Ellis (world headquarters in Chicago) and she said to go to the best school you can get into.  I could post 20 articles right now demonstrating how terrible the job market is for people outside top schools and even in top schools. HARVARD had to temper the expectations of  a recent graduating class. Even top firms like Skadden Arps are offering a year away for 80k to curb costs. I just spent an extended period analyzing the state of the legal profession from every angle so I think I'm well versed in the topic. 

Read One L

Read The Destruction of Young Lawyers

Read The Lost Lawyer 

Read The Partnership (for those looking to go into big law... you will really see what's up)

Not trying to discourage anyone; like I said before and what someone I really respect told me: "forewarned is forearmed"

+1 on it being terrible advice.  The name on your diploma will be with you for the rest of your life, so you should definitely consider the prestige of the institution in the legal community.  However, I don't believe that the general assertion that you should go to the highest-ranked school you get into is necessarily true.  The T14, UT (Texas), and Vanderbilt have national reputations; pretty much every other school has a regional reputation.  If you know that you want to work in the Pacific Northwest, going to law school at Iowa might not be the best idea.  You won't get as many chances to network with members of the legal community, and the legal community might not have much experience hiring or working with Iowa law students (very important in the job search). 
When my friends ask me about choosing a law school, I tell them to go to:

1) a T14, if they aren't debt averse

2) UT or Vandy

3) a school in the top ~60 with a strong regional reputation

4) a school ranked below the 60's only if it is located in the city where they want to work

The one exception to this rule would be Howard for African Americans; they place graduates into biglaw at a level disproportionate to their rank.  I know that I want to work in Dallas, so I chose SMU over my other two options, Illinois and Wake Forest.  Illinois is ranked ~30 spots higher than SMU, but is 800 miles away from Dallas.  I'm extremely happy with my decision.

I'll say it again: anyone interested in law school needs to sign up for an account on TopLawSchools.com.  There is a wealth of information on the website.

 

[kobefan23]

Originally Posted by richiecotite

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Originally Posted by capricdragon


That all being said ~~~  the school you go to is irrelevant.  

Terrible advice. 
I recently talked to a partner and  recruiting executive at Kirkland Ellis (world headquarters in Chicago) and she said to go to the best school you can get into.  I could post 20 articles right now demonstrating how terrible the job market is for people outside top schools and even in top schools. HARVARD had to temper the expectations of  a recent graduating class. Even top firms like Skadden Arps are offering a year away for 80k to curb costs. I just spent an extended period analyzing the state of the legal profession from every angle so I think I'm well versed in the topic. 

Read One L

Read The Destruction of Young Lawyers

Read The Lost Lawyer 

Read The Partnership (for those looking to go into big law... you will really see what's up)

Not trying to discourage anyone; like I said before and what someone I really respect told me: "forewarned is forearmed"

Definitely not terrible advice.

It doesn't matter if you went to harvard, yale, princeton, etc, if you don't pass the bar. Your not going to be in a courtroom or negotiation table asking opposing counsel what their civ pro/crim pro grades were. You have to pass the bar, because bottom line, if you don't, that $160,000 education is going to be the same thing as a Master's.

There's grads from those schools who don't have jobs, looking for work. You have people from tier 4 schools getting offers from every firm out there. My former school is either tier 3 or 4 and I know, literally, dozens of people from my class who are at firms in NY, LA, Chi, DC.    

Plus, not everyone is trying to go the firm route. That old summer associates=offer %#$*, i think is almost a wrap. A lot of firms aren't looking, to pay 24 yr olds $25k a summer for work a decent paralegal can do without having to take them out to lunch every other day

You are unbelievably wrong.

1) Who doesn't pass the bar? Most of the even marginally high ranked schools have 90+% bar passage rate.
2) There's a reason people from your Tier 4 are getting job offers and every other Tier 4 can barely get a handful of students employed. I don't need to state the obvious.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nl...NLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162

What a coincidence. That list pretty much mirrors the rankings. Rankings don't matter outside the T14? Tell that to an OSU student. OSU ranked 35 placed 11% of their students in NLJ250 firms, while ND, ranked a mere 10 spots higher than them, placed over double of that. A 1/4 chance vs. a 1/9 chance at biglaw.

 

[kobefan23]

Originally Posted by richiecotite

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Originally Posted by capricdragon


That all being said ~~~  the school you go to is irrelevant.  

Terrible advice. 
I recently talked to a partner and  recruiting executive at Kirkland Ellis (world headquarters in Chicago) and she said to go to the best school you can get into.  I could post 20 articles right now demonstrating how terrible the job market is for people outside top schools and even in top schools. HARVARD had to temper the expectations of  a recent graduating class. Even top firms like Skadden Arps are offering a year away for 80k to curb costs. I just spent an extended period analyzing the state of the legal profession from every angle so I think I'm well versed in the topic. 

Read One L

Read The Destruction of Young Lawyers

Read The Lost Lawyer 

Read The Partnership (for those looking to go into big law... you will really see what's up)

Not trying to discourage anyone; like I said before and what someone I really respect told me: "forewarned is forearmed"

Definitely not terrible advice.

It doesn't matter if you went to harvard, yale, princeton, etc, if you don't pass the bar. Your not going to be in a courtroom or negotiation table asking opposing counsel what their civ pro/crim pro grades were. You have to pass the bar, because bottom line, if you don't, that $160,000 education is going to be the same thing as a Master's.

There's grads from those schools who don't have jobs, looking for work. You have people from tier 4 schools getting offers from every firm out there. My former school is either tier 3 or 4 and I know, literally, dozens of people from my class who are at firms in NY, LA, Chi, DC.    

Plus, not everyone is trying to go the firm route. That old summer associates=offer %#$*, i think is almost a wrap. A lot of firms aren't looking, to pay 24 yr olds $25k a summer for work a decent paralegal can do without having to take them out to lunch every other day

You are unbelievably wrong.

1) Who doesn't pass the bar? Most of the even marginally high ranked schools have 90+% bar passage rate.
2) There's a reason people from your Tier 4 are getting job offers and every other Tier 4 can barely get a handful of students employed. I don't need to state the obvious.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nl...NLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162

What a coincidence. That list pretty much mirrors the rankings. Rankings don't matter outside the T14? Tell that to an OSU student. OSU ranked 35 placed 11% of their students in NLJ250 firms, while ND, ranked a mere 10 spots higher than them, placed over double of that. A 1/4 chance vs. a 1/9 chance at biglaw.

 

[kicksnbeats]

Big Debt, Small Law

http://lawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

http://www.nytimes.com/20...1/09/business/09law.html

 

[kicksnbeats]

Big Debt, Small Law

http://lawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

http://www.nytimes.com/20...1/09/business/09law.html

 

[dunks87]

Congrats on the acceptance to those schools Chris! and Good Luck!!

 

[dunks87]

Congrats on the acceptance to those schools Chris! and Good Luck!!

 

[richiecotite]

Originally Posted by Kobefan23

Originally Posted by richiecotite

Originally Posted by HankMoody


Terrible advice. 
I recently talked to a partner and  recruiting executive at Kirkland Ellis (world headquarters in Chicago) and she said to go to the best school you can get into.  I could post 20 articles right now demonstrating how terrible the job market is for people outside top schools and even in top schools. HARVARD had to temper the expectations of  a recent graduating class. Even top firms like Skadden Arps are offering a year away for 80k to curb costs. I just spent an extended period analyzing the state of the legal profession from every angle so I think I'm well versed in the topic. 

Read One L

Read The Destruction of Young Lawyers

Read The Lost Lawyer 

Read The Partnership (for those looking to go into big law... you will really see what's up)

Not trying to discourage anyone; like I said before and what someone I really respect told me: "forewarned is forearmed"

Definitely not terrible advice.

It doesn't matter if you went to harvard, yale, princeton, etc, if you don't pass the bar. Your not going to be in a courtroom or negotiation table asking opposing counsel what their civ pro/crim pro grades were. You have to pass the bar, because bottom line, if you don't, that $160,000 education is going to be the same thing as a Master's.

There's grads from those schools who don't have jobs, looking for work. You have people from tier 4 schools getting offers from every firm out there. My former school is either tier 3 or 4 and I know, literally, dozens of people from my class who are at firms in NY, LA, Chi, DC.    

Plus, not everyone is trying to go the firm route. That old summer associates=offer %#$*, i think is almost a wrap. A lot of firms aren't looking, to pay 24 yr olds $25k a summer for work a decent paralegal can do without having to take them out to lunch every other day

You are unbelievably wrong.

1) Who doesn't pass the bar? Most of the even marginally high ranked schools have 90+% bar passage rate.
2) There's a reason people from your Tier 4 are getting job offers and every other Tier 4 can barely get a handful of students employed. I don't need to state the obvious.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nl...NLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162

What a coincidence. That list pretty much mirrors the rankings. Rankings don't matter outside the T14? Tell that to an OSU student. OSU ranked 35 placed 11% of their students in NLJ250 firms, while ND, ranked a mere 10 spots higher than them, placed over double of that. A 1/4 chance vs. a 1/9 chance at biglaw.

No comprendo.

1) my point is a degree is not a guarantee. Just because your degree says harvard doesn't mean your going to be pulling 160k 3 months after graduation; just because you go the lowest ranked school doesn't mean you can't get a job with a firm.

2) I used my previous school as an example, because it's still a tier 4 school and a lot of people go to big firms. if you were looking strictly at the rankings (without looking at the data), you wouldn't take a second look.

And maybe i didn't state my point explicitly enough. The firm route is not the only thing to do with a law degree.

I'm sure you've done enough research to know that most associates spend an  average of 2-3 yrs at firm before they leave. So you can't even say most lawyers go the firm route. Doing that is just the least complicated way of making money.

 

[richiecotite]

Originally Posted by Kobefan23

Originally Posted by richiecotite

Originally Posted by HankMoody


Terrible advice. 
I recently talked to a partner and  recruiting executive at Kirkland Ellis (world headquarters in Chicago) and she said to go to the best school you can get into.  I could post 20 articles right now demonstrating how terrible the job market is for people outside top schools and even in top schools. HARVARD had to temper the expectations of  a recent graduating class. Even top firms like Skadden Arps are offering a year away for 80k to curb costs. I just spent an extended period analyzing the state of the legal profession from every angle so I think I'm well versed in the topic. 

Read One L

Read The Destruction of Young Lawyers

Read The Lost Lawyer 

Read The Partnership (for those looking to go into big law... you will really see what's up)

Not trying to discourage anyone; like I said before and what someone I really respect told me: "forewarned is forearmed"

Definitely not terrible advice.

It doesn't matter if you went to harvard, yale, princeton, etc, if you don't pass the bar. Your not going to be in a courtroom or negotiation table asking opposing counsel what their civ pro/crim pro grades were. You have to pass the bar, because bottom line, if you don't, that $160,000 education is going to be the same thing as a Master's.

There's grads from those schools who don't have jobs, looking for work. You have people from tier 4 schools getting offers from every firm out there. My former school is either tier 3 or 4 and I know, literally, dozens of people from my class who are at firms in NY, LA, Chi, DC.    

Plus, not everyone is trying to go the firm route. That old summer associates=offer %#$*, i think is almost a wrap. A lot of firms aren't looking, to pay 24 yr olds $25k a summer for work a decent paralegal can do without having to take them out to lunch every other day

You are unbelievably wrong.

1) Who doesn't pass the bar? Most of the even marginally high ranked schools have 90+% bar passage rate.
2) There's a reason people from your Tier 4 are getting job offers and every other Tier 4 can barely get a handful of students employed. I don't need to state the obvious.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nl...NLJ.jsp?id=1202483173162

What a coincidence. That list pretty much mirrors the rankings. Rankings don't matter outside the T14? Tell that to an OSU student. OSU ranked 35 placed 11% of their students in NLJ250 firms, while ND, ranked a mere 10 spots higher than them, placed over double of that. A 1/4 chance vs. a 1/9 chance at biglaw.

No comprendo.

1) my point is a degree is not a guarantee. Just because your degree says harvard doesn't mean your going to be pulling 160k 3 months after graduation; just because you go the lowest ranked school doesn't mean you can't get a job with a firm.

2) I used my previous school as an example, because it's still a tier 4 school and a lot of people go to big firms. if you were looking strictly at the rankings (without looking at the data), you wouldn't take a second look.

And maybe i didn't state my point explicitly enough. The firm route is not the only thing to do with a law degree.

I'm sure you've done enough research to know that most associates spend an  average of 2-3 yrs at firm before they leave. So you can't even say most lawyers go the firm route. Doing that is just the least complicated way of making money.

 

[savraj1]

How important is it to have a business administration or economics degree to be a corporate lawyer? Can I still be a corporate lawyer if I don't have that background? 
How do people get into corporate law firms? Did they have to do a business concentration or something in law school? 

 

[savraj1]

How important is it to have a business administration or economics degree to be a corporate lawyer? Can I still be a corporate lawyer if I don't have that background? 
How do people get into corporate law firms? Did they have to do a business concentration or something in law school? 

 

[you go boy]

i don't know too much about law school because i never took it but i know a little bit just based off what my boy told me... he was saying how the work load is mad serious your freshman and sophomore year...and that the professor calls on you to ask you about cases and you better be prepared to know your stuff because you will be put on the spot... he also said that during his final that some girl just fainted during the final exam and nobody even paid her any mind and was just worried about the exam... but he also added that everyone is so smart in law school that its tough to fail classes and that its graded on a curve... in other words you have to be an idiot to fail law school... then again he went to university of florida... and its also expensive as hell... he spent 100gs just for 3 years to get his JD... and now hes not practicing law he a stock broker... im got on him like ayo what are you doing with your life you just spent mad time doing law school and spent mad money to go to law school take the bar at least... but he was saying its mad expensive to take the bar and he needs to take classes to even prepare to take the bar because its that serious... i was like ayo you spend that much money to just go to law school you might as well... but he ain't listening he just want to get paid and is fine with being a stock broker...so i dont know whats good... if i were in his position though id take the bar and be a sports agent asap... because they make that guap... call me ignorant for not knowing anything but if you go to law school why would you not practice law after spending all that time and money to do what you love to do...

 

[you go boy]

i don't know too much about law school because i never took it but i know a little bit just based off what my boy told me... he was saying how the work load is mad serious your freshman and sophomore year...and that the professor calls on you to ask you about cases and you better be prepared to know your stuff because you will be put on the spot... he also said that during his final that some girl just fainted during the final exam and nobody even paid her any mind and was just worried about the exam... but he also added that everyone is so smart in law school that its tough to fail classes and that its graded on a curve... in other words you have to be an idiot to fail law school... then again he went to university of florida... and its also expensive as hell... he spent 100gs just for 3 years to get his JD... and now hes not practicing law he a stock broker... im got on him like ayo what are you doing with your life you just spent mad time doing law school and spent mad money to go to law school take the bar at least... but he was saying its mad expensive to take the bar and he needs to take classes to even prepare to take the bar because its that serious... i was like ayo you spend that much money to just go to law school you might as well... but he ain't listening he just want to get paid and is fine with being a stock broker...so i dont know whats good... if i were in his position though id take the bar and be a sports agent asap... because they make that guap... call me ignorant for not knowing anything but if you go to law school why would you not practice law after spending all that time and money to do what you love to do...

 

[manslayer]

yns.....yet

 

[manslayer]

yns.....yet

 

[sooperhooper]

This thread really displays everyones litigation skills, that's for sure.
No matter who says what about available jobs or school elitism, I'm taking the test in June. Twenty years from now, there's NO way I'm gonna look back and say "I wish I would've tried law school, but a few guys on Niketalk said it wasn't a good idea."

I'll see where it goes from there.

 

[sooperhooper]

This thread really displays everyones litigation skills, that's for sure.
No matter who says what about available jobs or school elitism, I'm taking the test in June. Twenty years from now, there's NO way I'm gonna look back and say "I wish I would've tried law school, but a few guys on Niketalk said it wasn't a good idea."

I'll see where it goes from there.

 

[juju]

Originally Posted by jehims

if u dont get into a top tier school...im gonna let you finish my sentence

not true at all, my school isn't top tier and its produces magistrate judges, federal law clerks and plenty of lawyer who go to big firms. people who think one school is better than the other overall are dumb. an assault is an assault whether you learn it at Harvard or FAMU law. the difference in schools comes into play with clinics and what not, if you want to practice environmental law then look at schools with programs geared towards that. if you want to do patent law go to a school thats known for that. if you don't plan on specializing in an area then the school doesn't matter as much as how much YOU put into your education while at that school... cause unlike undergrad just cause you have a nice name on your diploma if the dude from the 3rd tier school passes the bar first time out and you don't, your potential employers aren't gonna say, well he failed the bar first time out but i mean he went to _________ so lets give him the job anyway. 

 

[juju]

Originally Posted by jehims

if u dont get into a top tier school...im gonna let you finish my sentence

not true at all, my school isn't top tier and its produces magistrate judges, federal law clerks and plenty of lawyer who go to big firms. people who think one school is better than the other overall are dumb. an assault is an assault whether you learn it at Harvard or FAMU law. the difference in schools comes into play with clinics and what not, if you want to practice environmental law then look at schools with programs geared towards that. if you want to do patent law go to a school thats known for that. if you don't plan on specializing in an area then the school doesn't matter as much as how much YOU put into your education while at that school... cause unlike undergrad just cause you have a nice name on your diploma if the dude from the 3rd tier school passes the bar first time out and you don't, your potential employers aren't gonna say, well he failed the bar first time out but i mean he went to _________ so lets give him the job anyway. 

 

[dr mantis toboggan]

Originally Posted by Savraj1

How important is it to have a business administration or economics degree to be a corporate lawyer? Can I still be a corporate lawyer if I don't have that background? 
How do people get into corporate law firms? Did they have to do a business concentration or something in law school? 

It does not matter at all.  I've met many corporate lawyers that never took a business class during undergrad, and had their first exposure to business concepts in law school.  If you want to be a corporate lawyer for a big firm, the important thing is to do as well as you can in law school.  Many corporate practices are housed in large firms, and interviews with these firms are acquired primarily by finishing at or near the top of your class.  There are exceptions to every rule (people with family connections, etc.), but don't count on being an exception.  Keep your GPA high while earning your undergraduate degree, and be ready to put in work to earn a high GPA in law school.

 

[dr mantis toboggan]

Originally Posted by Savraj1

How important is it to have a business administration or economics degree to be a corporate lawyer? Can I still be a corporate lawyer if I don't have that background? 
How do people get into corporate law firms? Did they have to do a business concentration or something in law school? 

It does not matter at all.  I've met many corporate lawyers that never took a business class during undergrad, and had their first exposure to business concepts in law school.  If you want to be a corporate lawyer for a big firm, the important thing is to do as well as you can in law school.  Many corporate practices are housed in large firms, and interviews with these firms are acquired primarily by finishing at or near the top of your class.  There are exceptions to every rule (people with family connections, etc.), but don't count on being an exception.  Keep your GPA high while earning your undergraduate degree, and be ready to put in work to earn a high GPA in law school.

 

[dr mantis toboggan]

Originally Posted by JuJu

Originally Posted by jehims

if u dont get into a top tier school...im gonna let you finish my sentence

not true at all, my school isn't top tier and its produces magistrate judges, federal law clerks and plenty of lawyer who go to big firms. people who think one school is better than the other overall are dumb. an assault is an assault whether you learn it at Harvard or FAMU law. the difference in schools comes into play with clinics and what not, if you want to practice environmental law then look at schools with programs geared towards that. if you want to do patent law go to a school thats known for that. if you don't plan on specializing in an area then the school doesn't matter as much as how much YOU put into your education while at that school... cause unlike undergrad just cause you have a nice name on your diploma if the dude from the 3rd tier school passes the bar first time out and you don't, your potential employers aren't gonna say, well he failed the bar first time out but i mean he went to _________ so lets give him the job anyway. 

Elite schools bring more employers on campus to conduct OCI's (on campus interviews), and bring elite firms from across the nation.  You and I might receive the same education as a student at Harvard, but the name on her diploma will help her in the search for her first position after graduating law school.