whats your take on Obama mandating a 36MPG minimum on cars? VOL. RIP V8, corvette, camaro, chargers

let's get this straight, on NT I had a conservative in one thread say it IS NOT A RIGHT to have health care because it is not in the constitution, but ITIS A RIGHT for the choice of car? Where in the constitution does it say The American Citizen has the right to a muscle car?

I'm just referencing something I just remembered, I do believe it should be a given to people


Pickers and choosers just like heavily religious people, that's why people hate conservatives.

Here's the correct position on this, while I do not think we should kill all choice on cars. I do believe the government mandate to make the AVERAGE ofeach corporations car be 36mpg is a good idea. Something Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2 all promised was to improve cars and cut down the dependencyof foreign oil and all of them have failed.

Do you know why we don't buy U.S. cars and we can't sell them at a sufficient rate to other countries? It is because they suck compared to everyoneelse. This is the right step. Gives them adequate time on R&D to make every car better, and if they don't well it is their problem.
 
I don't even think Obama would consider this if the US had it's own fuel supply. The price of gas is high because its not US crop forreal andalternative fuels are still null and void. Cutting down on fuel use cuts down on the amount of fuel purchased and this should cut down on US debt. However, ifUS would stop being stupid and make hybrid cars cheaper, we wouldn't need the mandate. But I'm biased b/c though I would like to buy a 7 series andTahoe later on in life, I'd settle for a more fuel efficient car.
 
Originally Posted by ninjahood

the problem is why would you force auto companies to make cars americans just don't want.
Sorry man but I disagree....if this were true, then the big three, I mean the big two, wouldn't be drowning right now
 
Originally Posted by NikeMax

People not in support of this just shows how unsustainable and short sighted Americans are

Let's requote this:

"People in support of this just shows how unsustainable and short sighted Americans are."

That makes more sense.

Originally Posted by SW33TS1NC3R1TY

Actually the problem with the american car companies is the unions puttin a strain on them.

And Obama's administration will only add more strain to this.
 
SW33TS1NC3R1TY wrote:
Actually the problem with the american car companies is the unions puttin a strain on them.

well that would be the problem if they actually did have equal cars to Hyndai, Honda, etc.. Also their marketing, and R&D have been light years behind.Also remember these companies agreed to the union wages. And the Toyota plant in the U.S. pays the workers about the same amount (including benefits) and theyare not in the red with the plant.

Blame unions for crappy products.
smh.gif
Also don't getit misconstrued, I don't like all union I personally would demolish most of the teachers union if I could.
 
Essential1 wrote:
da703trailblaza wrote:
barack obama is a fascist
so a majority of Americans enjoy/approve/support/like fascism?





Are you implying that people in large groups always make the right choices? People in any society can be easily talked into very bad ideas if they aredesperate and the advocate of those bad ideas is very articulate.

I would not say that Barack Obama is a down the line fascist but some of his decision are those associated with fascism. His decisions to dishonor contracts,to make himself the boss of major car companies, reluctance to take back TARP and therefor relinquish his control over banks and other financial institutionsand belief that the economy will be much better after he has a chance to will it into shape. These are delusions that are cause for concern.

Again, he is not a fascist and I doubt that he wants to have completely regimented society. His problem is that he believes that he is smart enough that he canmake central planning work. The problem is that central planning relies on the planners not just having a great quality of knowledge but a great quantity ofknowledge and no one person or small group of people has a greater quantity of knowledge then the 99.9999% of society on whose behalf they want to plan anddirect the economy. Experience has shown that markets are almost always more efficient then government run sectors of the economy because markets aggregate allof those desperate bits of information, spread among the masses of economic actors and the market punishes those that displease consumers. Government hasneither of those qualities.
 
I think we can all agree that sooner than later we are going to have to find a way to power our vehicles other than by gasoline
 
chris boshs neck wrote:
I think we can all agree that sooner than later we are going to have to find a way to power our vehicles other than by gasoline


That is indeed true. Gasoline is far from perfect but it is the best source of fuel right now. A good way to move away from gasoline and onto better andrenewable sources of fuel is to have policies that encourage entrepreneurship. Have investment into research and development that is not based on politicalpatronage. Stop having subsidies for any one type of fuel. Allow greed to work for us and let solutions not yet imagined of at the moment become reality in thefuture. In short, allow the best ideas to emerge by reducing the role of politics in energy production and automobile production.

Perhaps by going this route, we can find a truly viable alternative to gasoline powered cars and hopefully faster then the route of government edicts, centralplanning and politically motivated investment and research and development. I hope that markets and the huge profit motive for the discoverers of nextgeneration fuel sources will be allowed to work and we can cast off gasoline in the same way that market driven innovation has allowed us to cast off whaleoil, peat, firewood, tallow candles and all of the other messy, costly and inefficient sources of years past.
 
Originally Posted by Rexanglorum

chris boshs neck wrote:
I think we can all agree that sooner than later we are going to have to find a way to power our vehicles other than by gasoline


That is indeed true. Gasoline is far from perfect but it is the best source of fuel right now. A good way to move away from gasoline and onto better and renewable sources of fuel is to have policies that encourage entrepreneurship. Have investment into research and development that is not based on political patronage. Stop having subsidies for any one type of fuel. Allow greed to work for us and let solutions not yet imagined of at the moment become reality in the future. In short, allow the best ideas to emerge by reducing the role of politics in energy production and automobile production.

Perhaps by going this route, we can find a truly viable alternative to gasoline powered cars and hopefully faster then the route of government edicts, central planning and politically motivated investment and research and development. I hope that markets and the huge profit motive for the discoverers of next generation fuel sources will be allowed to work and we can cast off gasoline in the same way that market driven innovation has allowed us to cast off whale oil, peat, firewood, tallow candles and all of the other messy, costly and inefficient sources of years past.

i think you have too much faith in the market driving companies to develop new technology... if that were going to be the case then we would havebeen started doing so much more than we have already... people havent been buying american cars for some time now... but that did nothin to spur GM or Chryslerto develop newer technology & implement in with their vehicles...
 
smh.gif
@ da "big brother" mindset in thread.....technology shouldn't be forced down our throats to da detriment of others.

If someone wants to rock a H1 or H2 its they damn right to do so in the US. I hate how da tree hugger people have

villanized that vehicle. No one should be able to tell me how much gasoline my car "should" be using to be efficient.

It took damn near 30 years for muscle cars/american cars to make a return after the emissions and gas scare from the

70's...how u think hondas, toyotas, etc got a chance to make inroads in da first place?
 
Originally Posted by Rexanglorum

Essential1 wrote:


da703trailblaza wrote:

barack obama is a fascist
so a majority of Americans enjoy/approve/support/like fascism?





Are you implying that people in large groups always make the right choices? People in any society can be easily talked into very bad ideas if they are desperate and the advocate of those bad ideas is very articulate.

I would not say that Barack Obama is a down the line fascist but some of his decision are those associated with fascism. His decisions to dishonor contracts, to make himself the boss of major car companies, reluctance to take back TARP and therefor relinquish his control over banks and other financial institutions and belief that the economy will be much better after he has a chance to will it into shape. These are delusions that are cause for concern.

Again, he is not a fascist and I doubt that he wants to have completely regimented society. His problem is that he believes that he is smart enough that he can make central planning work. The problem is that central planning relies on the planners not just having a great quality of knowledge but a great quantity of knowledge and no one person or small group of people has a greater quantity of knowledge then the 99.9999% of society on whose behalf they want to plan and direct the economy. Experience has shown that markets are almost always more efficient then government run sectors of the economy because markets aggregate all of those desperate bits of information, spread among the masses of economic actors and the market punishes those that displease consumers. Government has neither of those qualities.







Oh word? while there is no doubt the "markets" can be more efficient than government bureaucracy (even you say almost always), thefact that we are in the situation we're in now both economically & politically (as far as this issue is concerned) is specifically because of ourcomplete reliance on those economic actors & markets...markets are not concerned with what is necessary; only with what is profitable. the currentgov'ment intervention is needed at this point because the aggregation of all of those disparate bits of info has either been purposely obscured,misrepresented, or is being totally ignored. the american automakers have spun their wheels repeatedly on this issue...and i fail to see how this fundamentallytakes away choice from those who would want a vehicle that is a gas guzzler, just that gas guzzler will likely be more fuel efficient than it would have beenotherwise...furthermore this country should be making MORE sacrifices and planning to further decrease our dependency is part of the equation, we are involvedin 2 wars, so i hope a gas tax is implemented as well


well that would be the problem if they actually did have equal cars to Hyndai, Honda, etc.. Also their marketing, and R&D have been light years behind. Also remember these companies agreed to the union wages. And the Toyota plant in the U.S. pays the workers about the same amount (including benefits) and they are not in the red with the plant.




true but the foreign auto companies do not have near the legacy costs that us automakers have...and it isn't that u.s. automakers aren't making qualityvehicles or that our R&D were behind, just that there was little real follow through and little foresight on where things were headed...
 
The benefits will outweigh the costs for the consumer (cost-want/luxury, benefit-low emissions/low cost)...but the cost for auto manufacturers could be ratherridiculous for R&D.
 
Originally Posted by ninjahood

smh.gif
@ da "big brother" mindset in thread.....technology shouldn't be forced down our throats to da detriment of others.

If someone wants to rock a H1 or H2 its they damn right to do so in the US. I hate how da tree hugger people have

villanized that vehicle. No one should be able to tell me how much gasoline my car "should" be using to be efficient.

It took damn near 30 years for muscle cars/american cars to make a return after the emissions and gas scare from the

70's...how u think hondas, toyotas, etc got a chance to make inroads in da first place?
what detriment is there to this mandate?

not to mention it is slated to begin in 2016..
 
Originally Posted by reigndrop

Originally Posted by NikeMax

People not in support of this just shows how unsustainable and short sighted Americans are

Let's requote this:

"People in support of this just shows how unsustainable and short sighted Americans are."

That makes more sense.

How so?

Whether you guys want to admit it or not certain resources (like oil) are finite and steps have to be taken now in order to be proactive about the impedingproblem. Our grandparents had to make huge sacrifices for us to be where we are today, so we should be willing to do the same.

And no, it's not the unions fault that more and more people are refusing to buy American cars
 
ericberry14 wrote:
Originally Posted by Rexanglorum

chris boshs neck wrote:
I think we can all agree that sooner than later we are going to have to find a way to power our vehicles other than by gasoline


That is indeed true. Gasoline is far from perfect but it is the best source of fuel right now. A good way to move away from gasoline and onto better and renewable sources of fuel is to have policies that encourage entrepreneurship. Have investment into research and development that is not based on political patronage. Stop having subsidies for any one type of fuel. Allow greed to work for us and let solutions not yet imagined of at the moment become reality in the future. In short, allow the best ideas to emerge by reducing the role of politics in energy production and automobile production.

Perhaps by going this route, we can find a truly viable alternative to gasoline powered cars and hopefully faster then the route of government edicts, central planning and politically motivated investment and research and development. I hope that markets and the huge profit motive for the discoverers of next generation fuel sources will be allowed to work and we can cast off gasoline in the same way that market driven innovation has allowed us to cast off whale oil, peat, firewood, tallow candles and all of the other messy, costly and inefficient sources of years past.

i think you have too much faith in the market driving companies to develop new technology... if that were going to be the case then we would have been started doing so much more than we have already... people havent been buying american cars for some time now... but that did nothin to spur GM or Chrysler to develop newer technology & implement in with their vehicles...




My confidence in the markets is based on results, on empirical evidence, of the successful societies that let markets and their accompanying virtues of thrift,creativity and innovation direct their means of production. By contrast government is spend thrift, dumb, blind and clumsy but it does wield the club of thelegitimate use of force so it can do some things that better than the private sector and it can do some useful things that the private sector may not even beable to do at all. There is a role that government can play that will make our lives better. Allocating venture capital is no one of those roles.

Government does not have the incentives to allocate capital based on what has the best chances of working. It is tainted by political favoritism in many casesand even if it is not, a bureaucrat has no skin in the game compared to a venture capitalist so they will not seek out information the way someone spending hisown money on his financial future would and finally even if that bureaucrat is a model public servant and did work as hard as a venture capitalist, he is stilllikely to be hamstrung by government's culture of being backward looking and uncreative. On top of all of that, a lot of the tax dollars given as researchand development subsidies end up simply increasing the pay of those who are already doing research and not in increasing the amount of research done. This notonly means very little bang for the tax payer buck but a crowding out effect on private sector research and development and this is all according to PresidentObama's own economic advisor, Austan Goolsbee.

As fas a the American autoindustry is concerned, much of its lack of emphasis on innovation in small cars is that it should not being havingto make so manysmall cars in the first place. The CAFE standards, the average fuel economy stipulations that have existed since the mid 1970's, have been a major reasonwhy American car companies are in the bad financial shape they are in at the moment. By requiring that American car companies make a series of small cars,largely to satisfy CAFE regulations, they waste half of their resourses, resourses that could have been dedicating to doing what they do best, make big carsand powerful cars.

If American car companies could do what they do best, they would be more profitabe and not burden to the tax payer right now. In addition, if they were robust,healthy and lean firms, they could focus all of their R&D budget on making powerful and large vehicles that are fuel efficient. The high prices of the lastfew years are changin gconsumer behavior. Under a more market oriented system, American automakers, knowing that on the one hand they will get no bailout whenthey fail but on the other hand can make and sell what ever they want, would likely have already invested much more into hyrbrid trucks and SUVs and would haveor would soon have trucks, SUVs and muscle cars that are more fuel effeicnet then they are today.

Obviously we can not know for certain what would have happened if the American car industry had functioned in an environment without the twin curses ofbailouts on the one hand and CAFE standards on the other hand. The former removes the incentive for innovatio nand pleasing the consumer and the latterseverally limits the means to do so.


Oh word? while there is no doubt the "markets" can be more efficient than government bureaucracy (even you say almost always), the fact that we are in the situation we're in now both economically & politically (as far as this issue is concerned) is specifically because of our complete reliance on those economic actors & markets...markets are not concerned with what is necessary; only with what is profitable. the current gov'ment intervention is needed at this point because the aggregation of all of those disparate bits of info has either been purposely obscured, misrepresented, or is being totally ignored. the American automakers have spun their wheels repeatedly on this issue...and i fail to see how this fundamentally takes away choice from those who would want a vehicle that is a gas guzzler, just that gas guzzler will likely be more fuel efficient than it would have been otherwise...furthermore this country should be making MORE sacrifices and planning to further decrease our dependency is part of the equation, we are involved in 2 wars, so i hope a gas tax is implemented as well


On your first point that the profit motive has caused all of the problems in the US car industry, see above.

On your second point that American car makers have ingored consumer demands, there is some truth to that. American car makers have historically been subject toa degree of arrogance, especially several decades ago when they faced little foreign competition. There is also a good deal of institutional inertia which cancause very big firms to be less efficient (in the days before "too big to fail" that problem was solved by allowing the big, arrogant and mismanagedgiants to die and be replaced by smaller leaner and more consumer oriented firms).

They have been slower in focusing on fuel economy but part of that is responding to what people want. Before 2005, most Americans did not care much about fueleconomy but when gas price went above three dollars per gallon in 2005 and four per gallon last summer, the demand for fuel economy is now there. Right now itis largely being filled by foreign car makers (thank goodness for relatively free trade). If American car makers were robust, healthy and competitive (whichthey very well could be but for the inefficiencies they have incurred in order to comply with CAFE standards), they would likely have started to get into gearand had the resources and the incentive to use them to get really good at producing fuel efficient trucks and SUVs.

On the third point, that this mandate will increase fuel efficiency, with no reductions in consumer choice, is to assume that there is such thing as a freelunch. If these car companies could costlessly increase fuel efficiency with not trade offs in their design to be made or additional cost of inputs into theengine, why would a profit driven firm hold back on this for so long? When you mandate higher fuel effeciny standards, you are making trade offs on theconsumers' behalf, and that means reductions in safety or in comfort or in power or an increase in price or some combination of all of those all or some ofthose trade offs. Nothing is free, nothing is costless. We should just hope that technology does manage to make some major strides in the next few years sothat the more fuel efficient cars will not significantly reduce the safety of a driver. Short of that, we will see lighter cars, more traffic deaths andironically, blood will be spilled for the sake of oil.

On your final point, I disagree with your mindset that our government should be allowed to demand sacrifices of us in any state of affairs outside of asituation involving a clear and present existential threat. Climate change, the recession, pollution and the War on Terror are important but should be used ascarte blanche for government officials to run our lives. We are not slaves nor serfs, we are free people and not the property of the state. The state shouldwork for us and not us for it.

In addition, this question for not buying foreign oil has some merits but is on balance bad idea. For one thing, gasoline is currently the best course of fuelfor most motorist and that will not change over night. Second, the fear of foreign oil smacks of paranoia, have we not been told that we are the cause of ourown insecurity, that we seek out enemies, that we are bellicose and under an Obama administration he will use the power of dialogue to make supposed enemiesinto friends. If the world is so safe and most of our worries were created by Bush and his "politics of fear," why do we need to lower our standardof living for the satisfaction of not having to buy oil from foreigners. Third, a lot of foreign oil does not come from hostile nations but allies like Mexico,Canada Britain and Norway, it does not seem wise to tell our allies that we want your help advancing our foreign policy but we refuse to buy your oil and otherexports. Finally, pursuing autarchy makes no sense economically, if we want prosperity, we need trade. We could be energy independent but it would very costlyas is the case for most nations that choice to pursue a policy of autarchy and "self reliance" (ironically such countries usually end up asrecipients of international food aid).



BTW, I do appreciate the thoughtful and serious replies and input frm both of you guys.
happy.gif
 
Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by ninjahood

smh.gif
@ da "big brother" mindset in thread.....technology shouldn't be forced down our throats to da detriment of others.

If someone wants to rock a H1 or H2 its they damn right to do so in the US. I hate how da tree hugger people have

villanized that vehicle. No one should be able to tell me how much gasoline my car "should" be using to be efficient.

It took damn near 30 years for muscle cars/american cars to make a return after the emissions and gas scare from the

70's...how u think hondas, toyotas, etc got a chance to make inroads in da first place?
what detriment is there to this mandate?

not to mention it is slated to begin in 2016..
thats 7 years from now..it takes YEARS ahead to develop and design cars, 7 years ain't gonna shake up some kinda secret way to have blockblock high horsepower engines to run

on 39 mpg.
smh.gif
 
Originally Posted by NikeMax

Originally Posted by reigndrop

Originally Posted by NikeMax

People not in support of this just shows how unsustainable and short sighted Americans are

Let's requote this:

"People in support of this just shows how unsustainable and short sighted Americans are."

That makes more sense.

How so?

Whether you guys want to admit it or not certain resources (like oil) are finite and steps have to be taken now in order to be proactive about the impeding problem. Our grandparents had to make huge sacrifices for us to be where we are today, so we should be willing to do the same.

And no, it's not the unions fault that more and more people are refusing to buy American cars
people been coppin SUV's for damn near 20 plus years...and who you think created da minivan?
 
Originally Posted by ninjahood

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by ninjahood

smh.gif
@ da "big brother" mindset in thread.....technology shouldn't be forced down our throats to da detriment of others.

If someone wants to rock a H1 or H2 its they damn right to do so in the US. I hate how da tree hugger people have

villanized that vehicle. No one should be able to tell me how much gasoline my car "should" be using to be efficient.

It took damn near 30 years for muscle cars/american cars to make a return after the emissions and gas scare from the

70's...how u think hondas, toyotas, etc got a chance to make inroads in da first place?
what detriment is there to this mandate?

not to mention it is slated to begin in 2016..
thats 7 years from now..it takes YEARS ahead to develop and design cars, 7 years ain't gonna shake up some kinda secret way to have block block high horsepower engines to run on 39 mpg.
smh.gif
hmm... i disagree with that part... i think we can definitely make significant strides towards that direction in these next 7 years... it justdepends on whether the car companies are willing to spend the time/money to get there.... which they clearly arent going by their past practices...
 
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