☆☆ 2012 NBA Finals ☆☆ The King has been crowned; Heat win 2012 NBA Finals! Bron Finals MVP.

Alright, CP, I got to defend Lebron on this one.

Why isn't Lebron in the plays at the end of the game? In my opinion, as long as they're winning, it doesn't matter. Let's be real; the reason Lebron got so much backlash for his fourth-quarter woes in the Finals was because they lost. Period. If the Heat would've won, there would still be people criticizing his fourth quarter performance in their championship, but you and I both know it wouldn't have been near as much criticism.

Forget asking you if you would rather go down the career path of a scrub with a ton of rings like Steve Kerr, or a phenom who never even made the Finals like Nique. I want to ask if you would rather be a phenom who is well-known for his clutchless despite never even playing one championship minute, or if you would rather be a phenom with multiple championships despite only having maybe 4, 5, maybe 6 game winners in your 15 - 17 year career.

Now here's the reason I ask that: imagine if you will that Lebron's career is over, and he does indeed have multiple championships, despite having only like a half dozen game winners. And his career stats are the same as they are now, which basically means that we're looking at a guy with multiple championships and extremely impressive career numbers with a few seasons where he damn near averaged a triple double, but practically no actual game winners, like Durant's the other night. You're going to hold back from calling that dude a beast? I'm saying "That was a monster of a career," and you would argue with me? I doubt it.

And me personally, I think that's exactly what we're looking at with Lebron. I've said from the beginning that I do think this Heat experiment will work and they will win multiple championships with this core, just not immediately. Well, at the same time, on the topic of clutchness, I think it's entirely possible that Lebron will be known as a beast with multiple championships and very few game winners. And if I'm right about that description, I won't hesitate at all to call him a monster when it's all said and done.

Of course the major piece that's missing from my description is that keyword 'championships', and that goes back to my original point: the criticism of his clutchness wouldn't be as loud if the Heat won last year.
 
Uh-oh. A discussion between Ska and CP?...Get ready for some scrolling.
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wade with two game winners on back to back nights and somehow all the talk is still about lebron lol. I really do not see why u guys are complaining that lebron isn't the one taking the big shots down the stretch when he has a teammate who is alot more clutch and specializes in closing games. you simply use the right tool for the right situation its common sense. at least spoelstra seems to be getting it.
 
abutta13:
he has a teammate who is alot more clutch and specializes in closing games… use the right tool for the right situation… spoelstra seems to be getting it.
Baaaaaasically.
 
I think at this point people will reach for anything when it comes to Lebron. Come Monday instead of talking about the Heat winning,
Skip Bayless & Stephen A. will yell in agreement with each other at how "almost costed them the game" with those last two passes
or whatever. I'm sure they'll even mention Lebron taking his shoes off and giving them to some guy sitting courtside. Instead of looking
at it as a nice gesture, they'll ask why didn't he sign them, or how come he couldn't have donated them to charity.
 
Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

Alright, CP, I got to defend Lebron on this one.

Why isn't Lebron in the plays at the end of the game? In my opinion, as long as they're winning, it doesn't matter. Let's be real; the reason Lebron got so much backlash for his fourth-quarter woes in the Finals was because they lost. Period. If the Heat would've won, there would still be people criticizing his fourth quarter performance in their championship, but you and I both know it wouldn't have been near as much criticism.

Forget asking you if you would rather go down the career path of a scrub with a ton of rings like Steve Kerr, or a phenom who never even made the Finals like Nique. I want to ask if you would rather be a phenom who is well-known for his clutchless despite never even playing one championship minute, or if you would rather be a phenom with multiple championships despite only having maybe 4, 5, maybe 6 game winners in your 15 - 17 year career.

Now here's the reason I ask that: imagine if you will that Lebron's career is over, and he does indeed have multiple championships, despite having only like a half dozen game winners. And his career stats are the same as they are now, which basically means that we're looking at a guy with multiple championships and extremely impressive career numbers with a few seasons where he damn near averaged a triple double, but practically no actual game winners, like Durant's the other night. You're going to hold back from calling that dude a beast? I'm saying "That was a monster of a career," and you would argue with me? I doubt it.

And me personally, I think that's exactly what we're looking at with Lebron. I've said from the beginning that I do think this Heat experiment will work and they will win multiple championships with this core, just not immediately. Well, at the same time, on the topic of clutchness, I think it's entirely possible that Lebron will be known as a beast with multiple championships and very few game winners. And if I'm right about that description, I won't hesitate at all to call him a monster when it's all said and done.

Of course the major piece that's missing from my description is that keyword 'championships', and that goes back to my original point: the criticism of his clutchness wouldn't be as loud if the Heat won last year.


I think it would have been just as bad if they won because wade would have been the finals MVP. He would have been criticized regardless.

The reason people are hesitant to say he is the best in the league right now is because he is ghost in CAREER DEFINING MOMENTS. All of the great players have these moments where they win big games for their teams. Lebron has a couple but he has not even tried the last couple of years. It's different to try and fail but he doesn't even try in the 4th quarter sometimes. People question his will to win. You never have to do that with Wade, Durant, Rose, Dirk and Kobe because make or miss you know good and damn well they want the ball.

This is why I think Maimi was the best choice for him, he can rely on Wade in clutch moments but that leaves room for Lebron to be criticized. To me he is still the most destructive force in the league tho.
 
LeBron is the best player in the league right now, and that should be obvious to even those who hate him.
You all know who I'm a fan of too...so you know this is objective. 
 
Originally Posted by LiCeNseD To BaLL

LeBron is the best player in the league right now, and that should be obvious to even those who hate him.
You all know who I'm a fan of too...so you know this is objective. 

I hate Lebron but even i know dude is clearly and easily the best player in the game and has been for awhile.
 
^ Lmao@ Wade taking hairline shots at Bron..he said "I look forward to seeing it come back" What does he mean by that? Dude about to hit that black ice ala Flo-Rida?
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Best player in every position.
1. Chris/Rose (arguable).

2. Kobe/Wade (arguable).

3. LeBron

4.Amare/Griffin/Love/Dirk (arguable).

5.Dwight.

Best players in the world are these three, which are all arguable.

Kobe, LeBron & Dwyane.

I still think Kobe is the best player in the world, because of killer instinct.
 
Youqguys still are not getting it. FORTY FEET. The dude plays forty feet from action late in games. Stop with clutch or anti clutch, NOBODY in the NBA should be 8 feet behind the 3 point line when it matters. How are you not seeing that? I will take Big J's reasoning of the inbounds pass, I don't agree, but I'll take the attempt, it was a fair one. But 40 feet from multiple late game plays, both finals and last night????? That has nothing to do with give Wade space, Bron would be great to have near the rim for putbacks or just plain rebounds. Allen, post what you had, I know you at least see what I am talking about, these guys apparently don't, they are stuck on game winners which I haven't even asked for. And Ska, maybe the Heat win last year if he did help out closer to the action late. You don't think there's something too that?
 
I know exactly what sequence you're talking about and it made me cringe and wondered what the hell he was doing. (but he did finally come into the play and attempt the 3)

And what is talked about likely IS his weakness, does that mean he can't be the best player in the league?

He sat for 5 minutes to start the 4th quarter and a Wade/Bosh led lineup took a 7pt lead and turned it into a 3 pt deficit. LeBron re-enters and they have the lead again within 2 minutes. And before that, Lebron took a Cole/Battier/Haslem/Howard lineup in the last 3 mins of the 3rd quarter and actually increased the lead from 3 to 7 with 4pts and assist.

Or Like against Charlotte the other night with Wade in the locker room, LeBron & co took a 13pt half time deficit and cut it to 1 within 10 minutes with LeBron scoring 12...then he had to sit and a 1pt deficit turned to 5..then he re-enters in the 4th and the Heat take the lead back, within 2 minutes --- but Superman, Batman, Flash, whatever the hell you want to call him hit the game winner. so be it, if that's how their constructed to win.

Isn't that a little bit 'clutch', albeit, not in the traditional form? I'm not creating new rules for the guy but if LeBron fans turn a blind eye to his faults late, the detractors tend to do the same with those moments over the course of a game. LeBron plays 46 minutes or whatever, but 48 minutes is 48 minutes, everything adds up. Even In the last 2 minutes he can still makes plays that others just can't, like starting on Rubio and switching off onto Love (nobody else can do that) or the final pass, which very few guys can attempt to make.
 
^ Well said!

CP: What if… just WHAT IF… that play was executed exactly as Spo wanted it to be executed? Including Bron's position on the floor; what if that's exactly what coach wanted?

And they won.

What if Spo realizes the possibility that Lebron might be a major stat stuffer who will always command attention, end of the game or not, and Wade is cool under pressure?
 
Originally Posted by DipsetGeneral

Best player in every position.
1. Chris/Rose (arguable).

2. Kobe/Wade (arguable).

3. LeBron

4.Amare/Griffin/Love/Dirk (arguable).

5.Dwight.

Best players in the world are these three, which are all arguable.

Kobe, LeBron & Dwyane.

I still think Kobe is the best player in the world, because of killer instinct.
how is KD not up there as arguable
 
His clutch is different from the traditional clutch, I wont sit here and say he is devoid of the clutch gene in the traditional sense though.
The bottom line is that his game dictates that he doesn't have a favorite move to get a jump shot. When he fails its usually cause of perfect defense. I made my mind up that 38 minutes of his dominance in a basketball game is more important than 2 minutes of what amounts to luck.
The reason? Cause when he and his teams are on you don't get to those last 2 minutes with a shot at winning the game.

The main problem with these Miami teams is that they do not hold leads. Half the games where they didn't close had no business being that close that late. They still have not figured out that they need to use Bosh to give Wade and James driving lanes, and stagger the minutes so that when Wade and Bron are on the bench Bosh is to go to guy, and extends leads.
 
Originally Posted by CP1708

Youqguys still are not getting it. FORTY FEET. The dude plays forty feet from action late in games. Stop with clutch or anti clutch, NOBODY in the NBA should be 8 feet behind the 3 point line when it matters. How are you not seeing that? I will take Big J's reasoning of the inbounds pass, I don't agree, but I'll take the attempt, it was a fair one. But 40 feet from multiple late game plays, both finals and last night????? That has nothing to do with give Wade space, Bron would be great to have near the rim for putbacks or just plain rebounds. Allen, post what you had, I know you at least see what I am talking about, these guys apparently don't, they are stuck on game winners which I haven't even asked for. And Ska, maybe the Heat win last year if he did help out closer to the action late. You don't think there's something too that?
melo, kobe, durant dont have a player like wade to close out.... thats why THEY take the last shot.... wade knows when he has the advantage or not...  thats why i think lebron is out near the 3 point line just in case wade cant get a shot off, he can pass it to lebron....
 
One thing that I think you need to take into consideration, not just the Finals, but in any fourth quarter situation, isn't LeBron James a better facilitator than Kobe, Durant, Jordan, etc.?

If you want to compare how he handles fourth quarter situations, it's better to compare him to Magic Johnson, isn't it? Or maybe Larry Bird? Those guys were much better facilitators for others, and the guys you're mentioning are more individual players making plays for themselves. There's countless plays where Bird and Magic made plays for others, and I'd like to think that LeBron is on that level, instead of Jordan/Kobe.
 
Originally Posted by DipsetGeneral

Best player in every position.
2. Kobe/Wade (arguable).

4.Amare/Griffin/Love/Dirk (arguable).

Best players in the world are these three, which are all arguable.

Kobe, LeBron & Dwyane.

I still think Kobe is the best player in the world, because of killer instinct.
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Originally Posted by CasperJr

Originally Posted by DipsetGeneral

Joakim is a bum.


stick to what you good at aka bumping old @@% threads in music
 
Originally Posted by DipsetGeneral

Best player in every position.
1. Chris/Rose (arguable).

2. Kobe/Wade (arguable).

3. LeBron

4.Amare/Griffin/Love/Dirk (arguable).

5.Dwight.

Best players in the world are these three, which are all arguable.

Kobe, LeBron & Dwyane.

I still think Kobe is the best player in the world, because of killer instinct.
hell naw u crazy. kobe aint top 5 no more imo
 
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