2011 NBA MVP Thread

[larrydavidswag]

omg, it's back to the "he cant win the big one" argument?


eofwehowefgpwrqgherpqgiouherhg

when they smash teams, yall gon be the same dudes saying "man, they have wade and bron...waaaaah"

wofgwrhgpowrghropg

the tears will be delicious.

(what "big game" has d rose won? i wait...)

 

[university of nike]

Actually, when the score is decided by 12 points or less on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, or Fridays, Derrick Rose has a PER of 123.1 when divided by the obtuse angles of the sun. In the same situation, Dwight Howard only has a 1 in 3 chance of hitting a game winner when the game is on the line in Moscow. 53% from the FT line on angled courts when shots are contested to get 17.5% FG percentage boosts over the score differential are minor in comparison to the production per 48 minutes of crunch time statistics.

It's not hard to see that LaMarcus Aldridge is the MVP.

 

[university of nike]

Actually, when the score is decided by 12 points or less on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, or Fridays, Derrick Rose has a PER of 123.1 when divided by the obtuse angles of the sun. In the same situation, Dwight Howard only has a 1 in 3 chance of hitting a game winner when the game is on the line in Moscow. 53% from the FT line on angled courts when shots are contested to get 17.5% FG percentage boosts over the score differential are minor in comparison to the production per 48 minutes of crunch time statistics.

It's not hard to see that LaMarcus Aldridge is the MVP.

 

[deuce king]

 @ dudes still trying to make a case for Dwight being the MVP.  Maybe another year, just not this year.  As far as Lebron goes, the last 2 weeks pretty much took him out the #1 slot for MVP. 

 

[deuce king]

 @ dudes still trying to make a case for Dwight being the MVP.  Maybe another year, just not this year.  As far as Lebron goes, the last 2 weeks pretty much took him out the #1 slot for MVP. 

 

[everysingletime]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Oh? 

Aye, was Steve Nash a better basketball player than Kobe 4 years ago? 

 

No? 

Well which one won the MVP? 

Oh, that's right.  The guy that was on the 2 seed won.  I see. 

What part of your stats do you not understand DON'T MATTER?  Why do you keep doing When the score differential is not more than 5, and there is less than 5 minutes to go, Derrick Rose has shot 37% from the field, and 25% from three. Per 48 minute of crunch time he records 9.7 assists to go along with 5.8 turnovers. 

What the hell does any of that @#$% matter?  No really, why do you keep coming up with cool lookin formulas to talk about a game that is not played on a damn laptop?  Forgive me for this, but I didn't see Lebron out there defending people with a pencil and a pair of glasses on.  The stuff that happens on a court got NOTHING to do with stats and equations. 

Miami is 1-18 in the final shot type situations, that mean the Bulls could just send in 5 bench guys to handle the last stop then? 

Team X is 40-0 when leading after the first quarter, they lead after the first quarter tomorrow, should team Y stop playing the last 3 quarters and hit the showers early? 

You guys want to compute everything, and things just do not work that way.  Do numbers have value, and/or merit?  YES.  YES, ABSOLUTELY.   But is there not part of the game that is NOT EASILY BROKEN DOWN INTO FORMULAS?  Yes, there is.  And right now, the whole damn country is seeing it.  The swell for Rose for MVP is growing by the game.  He's been 1-2 in MVP on most sites for months, and it's only heating up now.  And when I say that, you come at me with When the score differential is not more than 5, and there is less than 5 minutes to go, Derrick Rose has shot 37% from the field, and 25% from three. Per 48 minute of crunch time he records 9.7 assists to go along with 5.8 turnovers. 

Bottom line, Bron is now out of the running for this fact.  The league, and the voters, have seen the Heat beat all the nobody teams,and lose to the big dogs.  Nobody is going to give the MVP to a guy that loses every "big" game there is.  (I'm not one for "big" regular season games, but we're talking about mass opinion here)  I would hope that you would see and agree with that.  You can't go 0fer vs Boston, Chicago, SA, Dallas and be the MVP, it's not possible. 
Dwight has been GREAT this season.  And his team surely needs him to be.  But his team is in 4th, they should likely finish in that spot, maybe they inch up, maybe they inch down, but I think 4 is about where they land.  Him finishing second is not a crime.  Do his numbers show that he "should" be the most valuable?  Probably.  Is he doing better then Shaq was doing in his prime?  I don't think so.  How many MVP's did Shaq get in his career?  Oh, 1.  When he was "the best player" more then 1 year of his life, correct? 

There are just things that you can not type into a spreadsheet and make it make sense.  I wish you guys would see that and understand it.  You guys keep using words like Empirical evidence, and stats don't lie and blah blah blah.  But games/seasons/championships etc are not won that way.  There is no way to figure out hustle, desire, heart, toughness, leadership, NONE of that.  There's no way to define it or smell it or any of that.  But you can watch it, over the course of 6 months, and you can look at a guy and a team that many had in the 4-5 range before the season, see their second best player get hurt, miss 25 games or whatever, get that guy back, and then their third best guy goes down for another 25 games right after #2 comes back.  And all the while, that team goes above and beyond, and goes into the 2 seed out East, maintained by a kid having a great year, who goes in and beats on Chris Paul, then Deron Willaims, then the best record Spurs on national TV, then beats Bron, Dwight, and Bron again.  Nobody saw that coming.  Maybe that helps him "earn" the pub he's getting.  Don't know for sure.  But the bottom line is, THIS is how MVP's are won and lost.   Not by any of your fantastic stats.  So please, put them away.  You can say that other players were "better" then D Rose this year, that is fine, and your stats can back you up, but they can not tell you who is most valuable to his team.  You need your eyes for that.  If stats were the only thing that mattered, then we wouldn't need to watch games to vote, we could just enter the numbers into a spreadsheet, hit enter, and our MVP would be awarded.  But that's not the way it works.  Their is so much more to the game then ratio's and percentages and formulas.  Sooner you guys understand that, the better off we'll all be.  It's not all stats, it's not all heart.  It's a combo of BOTH. 



you're officially my second favorite Lakers fan ever. 

 

[everysingletime]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Oh? 

Aye, was Steve Nash a better basketball player than Kobe 4 years ago? 

 

No? 

Well which one won the MVP? 

Oh, that's right.  The guy that was on the 2 seed won.  I see. 

What part of your stats do you not understand DON'T MATTER?  Why do you keep doing When the score differential is not more than 5, and there is less than 5 minutes to go, Derrick Rose has shot 37% from the field, and 25% from three. Per 48 minute of crunch time he records 9.7 assists to go along with 5.8 turnovers. 

What the hell does any of that @#$% matter?  No really, why do you keep coming up with cool lookin formulas to talk about a game that is not played on a damn laptop?  Forgive me for this, but I didn't see Lebron out there defending people with a pencil and a pair of glasses on.  The stuff that happens on a court got NOTHING to do with stats and equations. 

Miami is 1-18 in the final shot type situations, that mean the Bulls could just send in 5 bench guys to handle the last stop then? 

Team X is 40-0 when leading after the first quarter, they lead after the first quarter tomorrow, should team Y stop playing the last 3 quarters and hit the showers early? 

You guys want to compute everything, and things just do not work that way.  Do numbers have value, and/or merit?  YES.  YES, ABSOLUTELY.   But is there not part of the game that is NOT EASILY BROKEN DOWN INTO FORMULAS?  Yes, there is.  And right now, the whole damn country is seeing it.  The swell for Rose for MVP is growing by the game.  He's been 1-2 in MVP on most sites for months, and it's only heating up now.  And when I say that, you come at me with When the score differential is not more than 5, and there is less than 5 minutes to go, Derrick Rose has shot 37% from the field, and 25% from three. Per 48 minute of crunch time he records 9.7 assists to go along with 5.8 turnovers. 

Bottom line, Bron is now out of the running for this fact.  The league, and the voters, have seen the Heat beat all the nobody teams,and lose to the big dogs.  Nobody is going to give the MVP to a guy that loses every "big" game there is.  (I'm not one for "big" regular season games, but we're talking about mass opinion here)  I would hope that you would see and agree with that.  You can't go 0fer vs Boston, Chicago, SA, Dallas and be the MVP, it's not possible. 
Dwight has been GREAT this season.  And his team surely needs him to be.  But his team is in 4th, they should likely finish in that spot, maybe they inch up, maybe they inch down, but I think 4 is about where they land.  Him finishing second is not a crime.  Do his numbers show that he "should" be the most valuable?  Probably.  Is he doing better then Shaq was doing in his prime?  I don't think so.  How many MVP's did Shaq get in his career?  Oh, 1.  When he was "the best player" more then 1 year of his life, correct? 

There are just things that you can not type into a spreadsheet and make it make sense.  I wish you guys would see that and understand it.  You guys keep using words like Empirical evidence, and stats don't lie and blah blah blah.  But games/seasons/championships etc are not won that way.  There is no way to figure out hustle, desire, heart, toughness, leadership, NONE of that.  There's no way to define it or smell it or any of that.  But you can watch it, over the course of 6 months, and you can look at a guy and a team that many had in the 4-5 range before the season, see their second best player get hurt, miss 25 games or whatever, get that guy back, and then their third best guy goes down for another 25 games right after #2 comes back.  And all the while, that team goes above and beyond, and goes into the 2 seed out East, maintained by a kid having a great year, who goes in and beats on Chris Paul, then Deron Willaims, then the best record Spurs on national TV, then beats Bron, Dwight, and Bron again.  Nobody saw that coming.  Maybe that helps him "earn" the pub he's getting.  Don't know for sure.  But the bottom line is, THIS is how MVP's are won and lost.   Not by any of your fantastic stats.  So please, put them away.  You can say that other players were "better" then D Rose this year, that is fine, and your stats can back you up, but they can not tell you who is most valuable to his team.  You need your eyes for that.  If stats were the only thing that mattered, then we wouldn't need to watch games to vote, we could just enter the numbers into a spreadsheet, hit enter, and our MVP would be awarded.  But that's not the way it works.  Their is so much more to the game then ratio's and percentages and formulas.  Sooner you guys understand that, the better off we'll all be.  It's not all stats, it's not all heart.  It's a combo of BOTH. 



you're officially my second favorite Lakers fan ever. 

 

[651akathepaul]

abovelegit1 an CP: Great debating. This is why I love coming to this place. Posts like these.

As for the argument on hand, I'm with CP on this one. Stats don't lie, but they don't tell the whole story. And they definitely can't choose an MVP.

I'm sure we've all watched a game on TV and hear the announcers say something like, "You would think (Team A) is up by 10 points right now, but you look at the scoreboard and they're only up by 3. (Team B) has found a way to keep this close."

This generalizes the fact that you can't see the intagibles of a particular game by looking at the boxscore, nor can you capsulate each individual with advanced statistics of that player to date and say it represents what this player was about for the full sesason. The stat that abovelegit1 brought to table, cluster all the games together and takes out the value of watching and seeing what Rose brings to the table each game independently.

An MVP to me is someone you can't define by poring over all of the stats at the end of the season or season to date (like now). An MVP is being someone that catapults their team regardless of a bevy of circumstances (injuries, no team around them, big plays in big games, etc.) to a level where on any given night, they could win based on the level that the player is playing at. To me that makes three glaring choices at this point:

Rose, Dwight, and Dirk. They all might be deserving, it's just that Rose is doing it best.

 

[651akathepaul]

abovelegit1 an CP: Great debating. This is why I love coming to this place. Posts like these.

As for the argument on hand, I'm with CP on this one. Stats don't lie, but they don't tell the whole story. And they definitely can't choose an MVP.

I'm sure we've all watched a game on TV and hear the announcers say something like, "You would think (Team A) is up by 10 points right now, but you look at the scoreboard and they're only up by 3. (Team B) has found a way to keep this close."

This generalizes the fact that you can't see the intagibles of a particular game by looking at the boxscore, nor can you capsulate each individual with advanced statistics of that player to date and say it represents what this player was about for the full sesason. The stat that abovelegit1 brought to table, cluster all the games together and takes out the value of watching and seeing what Rose brings to the table each game independently.

An MVP to me is someone you can't define by poring over all of the stats at the end of the season or season to date (like now). An MVP is being someone that catapults their team regardless of a bevy of circumstances (injuries, no team around them, big plays in big games, etc.) to a level where on any given night, they could win based on the level that the player is playing at. To me that makes three glaring choices at this point:

Rose, Dwight, and Dirk. They all might be deserving, it's just that Rose is doing it best.

 

[dland24]

CP.......I completely understand your argument. Hell, a lot of NBA fans feel the same. But you are misinterpreting abovelegit's comment about the 5 minute stat. You say that he responded to your argument that Rose has been 1-2 all year and its been growing, with the 5 minute stat. That is absolutely NOT what he was saying.

You made blanket statements that Rose tends to make big plays in big moments. Well, THIS is when the 5 minute stat comes in to play. That idea that Rose tends to make big plays in big moments is an assumption that you have made that was completely rebutted by this stat. The fact is, Rose plays WORSE when its crunch time. Look at the numbers.

(FTR, the numbers are PART of what goes into the MVP.....so dont come back at me with the "numbers dont tell the whole story" rebuttal.)

 

[dland24]

CP.......I completely understand your argument. Hell, a lot of NBA fans feel the same. But you are misinterpreting abovelegit's comment about the 5 minute stat. You say that he responded to your argument that Rose has been 1-2 all year and its been growing, with the 5 minute stat. That is absolutely NOT what he was saying.

You made blanket statements that Rose tends to make big plays in big moments. Well, THIS is when the 5 minute stat comes in to play. That idea that Rose tends to make big plays in big moments is an assumption that you have made that was completely rebutted by this stat. The fact is, Rose plays WORSE when its crunch time. Look at the numbers.

(FTR, the numbers are PART of what goes into the MVP.....so dont come back at me with the "numbers dont tell the whole story" rebuttal.)

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

It's all about rings tho. Lol.

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

It's all about rings tho. Lol.

 

[everysingletime]

Originally Posted by dland24

The fact is, Rose plays WORSE when its crunch time. Look at the numbers.

Again, looking at the stats and not watching the games.  It's the same story with all the stat heads all the time

You can look at a stat (and I'm just making the baloney stats up): so and so averages 3-7 from fg in crunch time and his 3 drops to 20 percent from 35 percent in said amount of time and his assist rate drops from 1/minute to .5/minute. 

What stats won't tell you is the 3 shots helped to win the game or stopped a run or started a run or if said player was a part of a play that led to made baskets. 

For the second point, as far as I know the nba don't keep hockey assists.  I guarantee that rose gets a lot of those all the damn time. 

And the abovelegit stat with rose's 3 percentage droppin in "crunchtime" is very easily explained by the fact that Rose is usually guarded by a taller defender by the end of games.  I see it all the time.  Teams start off guarding Rose with their 1 but towards the end they put a 2 on Rose or even a 3.  Of course your 3 percentage is going to drop

.  But no you stat heads don't see this cuz you don't watch the games. 

I'm still laughing at the post (from another thread) where one of you guys brought up that CJ and Boozer are better defenders than Rose

 

[everysingletime]

Originally Posted by dland24

The fact is, Rose plays WORSE when its crunch time. Look at the numbers.

Again, looking at the stats and not watching the games.  It's the same story with all the stat heads all the time

You can look at a stat (and I'm just making the baloney stats up): so and so averages 3-7 from fg in crunch time and his 3 drops to 20 percent from 35 percent in said amount of time and his assist rate drops from 1/minute to .5/minute. 

What stats won't tell you is the 3 shots helped to win the game or stopped a run or started a run or if said player was a part of a play that led to made baskets. 

For the second point, as far as I know the nba don't keep hockey assists.  I guarantee that rose gets a lot of those all the damn time. 

And the abovelegit stat with rose's 3 percentage droppin in "crunchtime" is very easily explained by the fact that Rose is usually guarded by a taller defender by the end of games.  I see it all the time.  Teams start off guarding Rose with their 1 but towards the end they put a 2 on Rose or even a 3.  Of course your 3 percentage is going to drop

.  But no you stat heads don't see this cuz you don't watch the games. 

I'm still laughing at the post (from another thread) where one of you guys brought up that CJ and Boozer are better defenders than Rose

 

[dland24]

Originally Posted by amel223

Originally Posted by dland24

The fact is, Rose plays WORSE when its crunch time. Look at the numbers.

Again, looking at the stats and not watching the games.  It's the same story with all the stat heads all the time

You can look at a stat (and I'm just making the baloney stats up): so and so averages 3-7 from fg in crunch time and his 3 drops to 20 percent from 35 percent in said amount of time and his assist rate drops from 1/minute to .5/minute. 

What stats won't tell you is the 3 shots helped to win the game or stopped a run or started a run or if said player was a part of a play that led to made baskets. 

For the second point, as far as I know the nba don't keep hockey assists.  I guarantee that rose gets a lot of those all the damn time. 

And the abovelegit stat with rose's 3 percentage droppin in "crunchtime" is very easily explained by the fact that Rose is usually guarded by a taller defender by the end of games.  I see it all the time.  Teams start off guarding Rose with their 1 but towards the end they put a 2 on Rose or even a 3.  Of course your 3 percentage is going to drop

.  But no you stat heads don't see this cuz you don't watch the games. 

I can pick apart this argument with rebuttals, but the assumption that I dont watch Bulls games will still be in your mind....so I feel it may be pointless.  

 

[dland24]

Originally Posted by amel223

Originally Posted by dland24

The fact is, Rose plays WORSE when its crunch time. Look at the numbers.

Again, looking at the stats and not watching the games.  It's the same story with all the stat heads all the time

You can look at a stat (and I'm just making the baloney stats up): so and so averages 3-7 from fg in crunch time and his 3 drops to 20 percent from 35 percent in said amount of time and his assist rate drops from 1/minute to .5/minute. 

What stats won't tell you is the 3 shots helped to win the game or stopped a run or started a run or if said player was a part of a play that led to made baskets. 

For the second point, as far as I know the nba don't keep hockey assists.  I guarantee that rose gets a lot of those all the damn time. 

And the abovelegit stat with rose's 3 percentage droppin in "crunchtime" is very easily explained by the fact that Rose is usually guarded by a taller defender by the end of games.  I see it all the time.  Teams start off guarding Rose with their 1 but towards the end they put a 2 on Rose or even a 3.  Of course your 3 percentage is going to drop

.  But no you stat heads don't see this cuz you don't watch the games. 

I can pick apart this argument with rebuttals, but the assumption that I dont watch Bulls games will still be in your mind....so I feel it may be pointless.  

 

[caerus]

Why are you guys even arguing this? Kobe is taking the award. Word to Skip Bayless

 

[caerus]

Why are you guys even arguing this? Kobe is taking the award. Word to Skip Bayless

 

[got shoes]

Originally Posted by Caerus

Why are you guys even arguing this? Kobe is taking the award. Word to Skip Bayless

As a Laker fan, that is a NO. Kobe will probably be 4th or 5th

 

[got shoes]

Originally Posted by Caerus

Why are you guys even arguing this? Kobe is taking the award. Word to Skip Bayless

As a Laker fan, that is a NO. Kobe will probably be 4th or 5th

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by dland24

CP.......I completely understand your argument. Hell, a lot of NBA fans feel the same. But you are misinterpreting abovelegit's comment about the 5 minute stat. You say that he responded to your argument that Rose has been 1-2 all year and its been growing, with the 5 minute stat. That is absolutely NOT what he was saying.

You made blanket statements that Rose tends to make big plays in big moments. Well, THIS is when the 5 minute stat comes in to play. That idea that Rose tends to make big plays in big moments is an assumption that you have made that was completely rebutted by this stat. The fact is, Rose plays WORSE when its crunch time. Look at the numbers.

(FTR, the numbers are PART of what goes into the MVP.....so dont come back at me with the "numbers dont tell the whole story" rebuttal.)

Certainly I hear ya that his late game numbers aren't sexy.  Kobe's aren't either apparently, but I think he's done ok for himself and his career don't you? 

There are a ton of things that don't ever show up.  Was it the Mia/Orld game a few days ago where Wade went flying into the third row for a loose ball?  Now, that play didn't work out well for Miami, but what if it had been saved to a Heat, and they went down and scored?  Could you imagine the Heat getting that win, and the credit WOULDN"T go to Wade for that play? 

Rose didn't do it in the final five minute yesterday.  Totally hear that.  But he did take a tie game, 76-76, score 6 straight points in a minute and twenty seconds, and effectively give his team the confidence that they were getting this win on the road vs a team they were chasing.  He did score 8 points in 8 minutes in the final quarter.  Against someone he is competing with for the MVP, as well as HC in the second round.  And he did all this right after beating yet another MVP candidate in D12 who couldn't even touch the ball the final 3 minutes for fear of having to shoot free throws.  Did Rose go crazy in the 4th qaurter?  No.  But he did get 7 points and a couple assists in 8 minutes, more then what Dwight did. 

Just because his average isn't great, doesn't mean that he isn't carrying his team.  What is the Chicago Bulls one weakness in terms of positions?  Is it not the Shooting Guard position?  And who takes up much of that slack?  Is it not Rose having to shoot more to make up the difference?  Maybe he would love to be like Rajon Rondo and pass the ball all day to shooter/slashers/scorers, but he doesn't have that luxury.  So the Bulls do what they can as best they can to win.  And he gives them what they need. 

I would also argue that while D12 is the lone gun in terms of true centers in the NBA, D Rose has to go out every single night against maybe the deepest position in basketball these days.  On given nights he has to play Rondo, Deron, Paul, Nash, Parker, Billups, Westbrook, Kidd, Jameer, Wall, Miller, and probably more that I am forgetting.  And thru all of these guys, he has been the one that has shone thru.  I'd say that counts for something, especially when you consider the Bulls lack that SG to take some of the load off his shoulders, don't you think?  

And may I please ask, if you are all going to say that Rose is not clutch, and doesn't get work done late in games, please tell me which MVP candidate you are selecting as your MVP.  Cuz if it is Dwight, who has to be taken out of games for his free throw shooting, or Lebron (do I really need to say anything here?) then I don't really see where you would feel comfortable knocking one Derrick Rose. 

  

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by dland24

CP.......I completely understand your argument. Hell, a lot of NBA fans feel the same. But you are misinterpreting abovelegit's comment about the 5 minute stat. You say that he responded to your argument that Rose has been 1-2 all year and its been growing, with the 5 minute stat. That is absolutely NOT what he was saying.

You made blanket statements that Rose tends to make big plays in big moments. Well, THIS is when the 5 minute stat comes in to play. That idea that Rose tends to make big plays in big moments is an assumption that you have made that was completely rebutted by this stat. The fact is, Rose plays WORSE when its crunch time. Look at the numbers.

(FTR, the numbers are PART of what goes into the MVP.....so dont come back at me with the "numbers dont tell the whole story" rebuttal.)

Certainly I hear ya that his late game numbers aren't sexy.  Kobe's aren't either apparently, but I think he's done ok for himself and his career don't you? 

There are a ton of things that don't ever show up.  Was it the Mia/Orld game a few days ago where Wade went flying into the third row for a loose ball?  Now, that play didn't work out well for Miami, but what if it had been saved to a Heat, and they went down and scored?  Could you imagine the Heat getting that win, and the credit WOULDN"T go to Wade for that play? 

Rose didn't do it in the final five minute yesterday.  Totally hear that.  But he did take a tie game, 76-76, score 6 straight points in a minute and twenty seconds, and effectively give his team the confidence that they were getting this win on the road vs a team they were chasing.  He did score 8 points in 8 minutes in the final quarter.  Against someone he is competing with for the MVP, as well as HC in the second round.  And he did all this right after beating yet another MVP candidate in D12 who couldn't even touch the ball the final 3 minutes for fear of having to shoot free throws.  Did Rose go crazy in the 4th qaurter?  No.  But he did get 7 points and a couple assists in 8 minutes, more then what Dwight did. 

Just because his average isn't great, doesn't mean that he isn't carrying his team.  What is the Chicago Bulls one weakness in terms of positions?  Is it not the Shooting Guard position?  And who takes up much of that slack?  Is it not Rose having to shoot more to make up the difference?  Maybe he would love to be like Rajon Rondo and pass the ball all day to shooter/slashers/scorers, but he doesn't have that luxury.  So the Bulls do what they can as best they can to win.  And he gives them what they need. 

I would also argue that while D12 is the lone gun in terms of true centers in the NBA, D Rose has to go out every single night against maybe the deepest position in basketball these days.  On given nights he has to play Rondo, Deron, Paul, Nash, Parker, Billups, Westbrook, Kidd, Jameer, Wall, Miller, and probably more that I am forgetting.  And thru all of these guys, he has been the one that has shone thru.  I'd say that counts for something, especially when you consider the Bulls lack that SG to take some of the load off his shoulders, don't you think?  

And may I please ask, if you are all going to say that Rose is not clutch, and doesn't get work done late in games, please tell me which MVP candidate you are selecting as your MVP.  Cuz if it is Dwight, who has to be taken out of games for his free throw shooting, or Lebron (do I really need to say anything here?) then I don't really see where you would feel comfortable knocking one Derrick Rose. 

  

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by CP1708

dland24 wrote:

---

abovelegit1 wrote:

---

CP1708 wrote:

---

Stat fans are absolutely gripping right now with Rose gaining all this momentum to the award. 

The bottom line is that your calculators and computers can't tell you a damn thing about leadership, toughness, plays made in big moments, none of it. 

There were a lot of people starting the talk back in December that he had "the look", the eyeball test of an MVP.  The Hollinger club couldn't figure it out on their monitors.  And now here we are, in March, and the sounds are getting louder and louder about Rose being the MVP. 

Stats don't give you the whole picture gentlemen.  Come up with all the formulas and computations you want, D-Rose has been the most valuable player in the NBA this year.  Barring a momumental collapse from him in the next 5 weeks, it's his award.  Dwight second, Bron third. 

Not only are you ill-informed, but you're condescending to boot. What is a "stat fan," exactly? Someone who uses all available information/evidence to make an informed decision?

What do you know about Rose's leadership? You in the locker room with the rest of the team? How do you know he's tough? Has he played through an injury I'm not aware of? Couldn't you say the same thing for Dwight or a bunch of other star players? Plays made in big-moments? Here you go: httphttp://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

When the score differential is not more than 5, and there is less than 5 minutes to go, Derrick Rose has shot 37% from the field, and 25% from three. Per 48 minute of crunch time he records 9.7 assists to go along with 5.8 turnovers.

And I couldn't care less about what the masses and media think about who should win the award. This MVP race reminds me of the NL MVP race in 2006 when Ryan Howard took home the award over Albert Pujols, who was clearly the superior player to anyone with cognitive function. Fortunately, progress has been made, and the MLB writers are starting to make better decisions, what with Felix and Lincecum recently winning the Cy. Sooner or later, the NBA media will get a clue as well. I'm sure you're someone who's still stuck on wins and RBI, though.

And I actually like Derrick Rose. Humble and soft spoken kid playing great basketball for the hometown team, and representing Chi well. MVP, though? No. Deserves mentioning? Sure.


Sorry arstyle27.....but CP's "excellent basketball observation" was just obliterated by this rebuttal.  



Oh? 

Aye, was Steve Nash a better basketball player than Kobe 4 years ago? 

 

No? 

Well which one won the MVP? 

Oh, that's right.  The guy that was on the 2 seed won.  I see. 

What part of your stats do you not understand DON'T MATTER?  Why do you keep doing When the score differential is not more than 5, and there is less than 5 minutes to go, Derrick Rose has shot 37% from the field, and 25% from three. Per 48 minute of crunch time he records 9.7 assists to go along with 5.8 turnovers. 

What the hell does any of that @#$% matter?  No really, why do you keep coming up with cool lookin formulas to talk about a game that is not played on a damn laptop?  Forgive me for this, but I didn't see Lebron out there defending people with a pencil and a pair of glasses on.  The stuff that happens on a court got NOTHING to do with stats and equations. 

Miami is 1-18 in the final shot type situations, that mean the Bulls could just send in 5 bench guys to handle the last stop then? 

Team X is 40-0 when leading after the first quarter, they lead after the first quarter tomorrow, should team Y stop playing the last 3 quarters and hit the showers early? 

You guys want to compute everything, and things just do not work that way.  Do numbers have value, and/or merit?  YES.  YES, ABSOLUTELY.   But is there not part of the game that is NOT EASILY BROKEN DOWN INTO FORMULAS?  Yes, there is.  And right now, the whole damn country is seeing it.  The swell for Rose for MVP is growing by the game.  He's been 1-2 in MVP on most sites for months, and it's only heating up now.  And when I say that, you come at me with When the score differential is not more than 5, and there is less than 5 minutes to go, Derrick Rose has shot 37% from the field, and 25% from three. Per 48 minute of crunch time he records 9.7 assists to go along with 5.8 turnovers. 

Bottom line, Bron is now out of the running for this fact.  The league, and the voters, have seen the Heat beat all the nobody teams,and lose to the big dogs.  Nobody is going to give the MVP to a guy that loses every "big" game there is.  (I'm not one for "big" regular season games, but we're talking about mass opinion here)  I would hope that you would see and agree with that.  You can't go 0fer vs Boston, Chicago, SA, Dallas and be the MVP, it's not possible. 
Dwight has been GREAT this season.  And his team surely needs him to be.  But his team is in 4th, they should likely finish in that spot, maybe they inch up, maybe they inch down, but I think 4 is about where they land.  Him finishing second is not a crime.  Do his numbers show that he "should" be the most valuable?  Probably.  Is he doing better then Shaq was doing in his prime?  I don't think so.  How many MVP's did Shaq get in his career?  Oh, 1.  When he was "the best player" more then 1 year of his life, correct? 

There are just things that you can not type into a spreadsheet and make it make sense.  I wish you guys would see that and understand it.  You guys keep using words like Empirical evidence, and stats don't lie and blah blah blah.  But games/seasons/championships etc are not won that way.  There is no way to figure out hustle, desire, heart, toughness, leadership, NONE of that.  There's no way to define it or smell it or any of that.  But you can watch it, over the course of 6 months, and you can look at a guy and a team that many had in the 4-5 range before the season, see their second best player get hurt, miss 25 games or whatever, get that guy back, and then their third best guy goes down for another 25 games right after #2 comes back.  And all the while, that team goes above and beyond, and goes into the 2 seed out East, maintained by a kid having a great year, who goes in and beats on Chris Paul, then Deron Willaims, then the best record Spurs on national TV, then beats Bron, Dwight, and Bron again.  Nobody saw that coming.  Maybe that helps him "earn" the pub he's getting.  Don't know for sure.  But the bottom line is, THIS is how MVP's are won and lost.   Not by any of your fantastic stats.  So please, put them away.  You can say that other players were "better" then D Rose this year, that is fine, and your stats can back you up, but they can not tell you who is most valuable to his team.  You need your eyes for that.  If stats were the only thing that mattered, then we wouldn't need to watch games to vote, we could just enter the numbers into a spreadsheet, hit enter, and our MVP would be awarded.  But that's not the way it works.  Their is so much more to the game then ratio's and percentages and formulas.  Sooner you guys understand that, the better off we'll all be.  It's not all stats, it's not all heart.  It's a combo of BOTH. 

You keep saying that stats don't tell the whole story. And then you say something like, "So please, put them away." So clearly you're not using stats at all to come up with your candidate, because every single one of them says that Derrick Rose has not had the best year, and has not had the biggest on-court impact. Toughness, leadership, heart, etc. are great qualities shared by a lot of great players, and you can be the toughest guy and the best leader in the world, but if you're shooting 44% on the season you're simply not having the same impact as someone shooting 54% for the season, ceteris paribus.

I prove that Derrick Rose hasn't been "clutch" throughout the season with FACTS, and you dismiss it by saying it doesn't matter and by posting emoticons. How does that work? Wasn't that your argument for Rose primarily based on how he's been there in "big moments?" Clearly he hasn't scored well (37%), or passed well, and has turned it over too much in the last 5 minutes of close games. But that doesn't matter! Why? Because CP1708 says so!

And we can actually measure value. One such metric is called win shares. Look it up. And it's actually a statistically significant measurement. Look that up too.

FYI, I've been blessed with the ability to buy league pass, and have been watching games all season. I can regularly see Derrick Rose playing great and impacting the game. I can see the same thing with Dwight, LeBron, Kobe, KG, etc. But in order to differentiate between the players, I have to use hard evidence to see exactly what each is actually doing on the court. I can't just try to pick who is having the best year and the biggest impact using my eyes and brain, right? That would be like an investor picking what stocks to invest in by using past experiences, without analyzing actual company performance and figures. "Oh, Chipotle is delicious, I'll invest in that company! Oh, Derrick Rose looks like he's the most valuable, he should be MVP!"

And please don't say dumb things like games aren't played on a laptop. I'm quite aware of this, thank you. Statistics are used to evaluate/analyze players/performance, after the fact. When Kobe Bryant wants to breakdown the tendencies of who he's guarding in his next game, what is he going to utilize? Statistics. And like I said, I don't care what the masses and media think. They'll figure it out eventually, after all it only took about a century for baseball guys to figure it out.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by CP1708

dland24 wrote:

---

abovelegit1 wrote:

---

CP1708 wrote:

---

Stat fans are absolutely gripping right now with Rose gaining all this momentum to the award. 

The bottom line is that your calculators and computers can't tell you a damn thing about leadership, toughness, plays made in big moments, none of it. 

There were a lot of people starting the talk back in December that he had "the look", the eyeball test of an MVP.  The Hollinger club couldn't figure it out on their monitors.  And now here we are, in March, and the sounds are getting louder and louder about Rose being the MVP. 

Stats don't give you the whole picture gentlemen.  Come up with all the formulas and computations you want, D-Rose has been the most valuable player in the NBA this year.  Barring a momumental collapse from him in the next 5 weeks, it's his award.  Dwight second, Bron third. 

Not only are you ill-informed, but you're condescending to boot. What is a "stat fan," exactly? Someone who uses all available information/evidence to make an informed decision?

What do you know about Rose's leadership? You in the locker room with the rest of the team? How do you know he's tough? Has he played through an injury I'm not aware of? Couldn't you say the same thing for Dwight or a bunch of other star players? Plays made in big-moments? Here you go: httphttp://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

When the score differential is not more than 5, and there is less than 5 minutes to go, Derrick Rose has shot 37% from the field, and 25% from three. Per 48 minute of crunch time he records 9.7 assists to go along with 5.8 turnovers.

And I couldn't care less about what the masses and media think about who should win the award. This MVP race reminds me of the NL MVP race in 2006 when Ryan Howard took home the award over Albert Pujols, who was clearly the superior player to anyone with cognitive function. Fortunately, progress has been made, and the MLB writers are starting to make better decisions, what with Felix and Lincecum recently winning the Cy. Sooner or later, the NBA media will get a clue as well. I'm sure you're someone who's still stuck on wins and RBI, though.

And I actually like Derrick Rose. Humble and soft spoken kid playing great basketball for the hometown team, and representing Chi well. MVP, though? No. Deserves mentioning? Sure.


Sorry arstyle27.....but CP's "excellent basketball observation" was just obliterated by this rebuttal.  



Oh? 

Aye, was Steve Nash a better basketball player than Kobe 4 years ago? 

 

No? 

Well which one won the MVP? 

Oh, that's right.  The guy that was on the 2 seed won.  I see. 

What part of your stats do you not understand DON'T MATTER?  Why do you keep doing When the score differential is not more than 5, and there is less than 5 minutes to go, Derrick Rose has shot 37% from the field, and 25% from three. Per 48 minute of crunch time he records 9.7 assists to go along with 5.8 turnovers. 

What the hell does any of that @#$% matter?  No really, why do you keep coming up with cool lookin formulas to talk about a game that is not played on a damn laptop?  Forgive me for this, but I didn't see Lebron out there defending people with a pencil and a pair of glasses on.  The stuff that happens on a court got NOTHING to do with stats and equations. 

Miami is 1-18 in the final shot type situations, that mean the Bulls could just send in 5 bench guys to handle the last stop then? 

Team X is 40-0 when leading after the first quarter, they lead after the first quarter tomorrow, should team Y stop playing the last 3 quarters and hit the showers early? 

You guys want to compute everything, and things just do not work that way.  Do numbers have value, and/or merit?  YES.  YES, ABSOLUTELY.   But is there not part of the game that is NOT EASILY BROKEN DOWN INTO FORMULAS?  Yes, there is.  And right now, the whole damn country is seeing it.  The swell for Rose for MVP is growing by the game.  He's been 1-2 in MVP on most sites for months, and it's only heating up now.  And when I say that, you come at me with When the score differential is not more than 5, and there is less than 5 minutes to go, Derrick Rose has shot 37% from the field, and 25% from three. Per 48 minute of crunch time he records 9.7 assists to go along with 5.8 turnovers. 

Bottom line, Bron is now out of the running for this fact.  The league, and the voters, have seen the Heat beat all the nobody teams,and lose to the big dogs.  Nobody is going to give the MVP to a guy that loses every "big" game there is.  (I'm not one for "big" regular season games, but we're talking about mass opinion here)  I would hope that you would see and agree with that.  You can't go 0fer vs Boston, Chicago, SA, Dallas and be the MVP, it's not possible. 
Dwight has been GREAT this season.  And his team surely needs him to be.  But his team is in 4th, they should likely finish in that spot, maybe they inch up, maybe they inch down, but I think 4 is about where they land.  Him finishing second is not a crime.  Do his numbers show that he "should" be the most valuable?  Probably.  Is he doing better then Shaq was doing in his prime?  I don't think so.  How many MVP's did Shaq get in his career?  Oh, 1.  When he was "the best player" more then 1 year of his life, correct? 

There are just things that you can not type into a spreadsheet and make it make sense.  I wish you guys would see that and understand it.  You guys keep using words like Empirical evidence, and stats don't lie and blah blah blah.  But games/seasons/championships etc are not won that way.  There is no way to figure out hustle, desire, heart, toughness, leadership, NONE of that.  There's no way to define it or smell it or any of that.  But you can watch it, over the course of 6 months, and you can look at a guy and a team that many had in the 4-5 range before the season, see their second best player get hurt, miss 25 games or whatever, get that guy back, and then their third best guy goes down for another 25 games right after #2 comes back.  And all the while, that team goes above and beyond, and goes into the 2 seed out East, maintained by a kid having a great year, who goes in and beats on Chris Paul, then Deron Willaims, then the best record Spurs on national TV, then beats Bron, Dwight, and Bron again.  Nobody saw that coming.  Maybe that helps him "earn" the pub he's getting.  Don't know for sure.  But the bottom line is, THIS is how MVP's are won and lost.   Not by any of your fantastic stats.  So please, put them away.  You can say that other players were "better" then D Rose this year, that is fine, and your stats can back you up, but they can not tell you who is most valuable to his team.  You need your eyes for that.  If stats were the only thing that mattered, then we wouldn't need to watch games to vote, we could just enter the numbers into a spreadsheet, hit enter, and our MVP would be awarded.  But that's not the way it works.  Their is so much more to the game then ratio's and percentages and formulas.  Sooner you guys understand that, the better off we'll all be.  It's not all stats, it's not all heart.  It's a combo of BOTH. 

You keep saying that stats don't tell the whole story. And then you say something like, "So please, put them away." So clearly you're not using stats at all to come up with your candidate, because every single one of them says that Derrick Rose has not had the best year, and has not had the biggest on-court impact. Toughness, leadership, heart, etc. are great qualities shared by a lot of great players, and you can be the toughest guy and the best leader in the world, but if you're shooting 44% on the season you're simply not having the same impact as someone shooting 54% for the season, ceteris paribus.

I prove that Derrick Rose hasn't been "clutch" throughout the season with FACTS, and you dismiss it by saying it doesn't matter and by posting emoticons. How does that work? Wasn't that your argument for Rose primarily based on how he's been there in "big moments?" Clearly he hasn't scored well (37%), or passed well, and has turned it over too much in the last 5 minutes of close games. But that doesn't matter! Why? Because CP1708 says so!

And we can actually measure value. One such metric is called win shares. Look it up. And it's actually a statistically significant measurement. Look that up too.

FYI, I've been blessed with the ability to buy league pass, and have been watching games all season. I can regularly see Derrick Rose playing great and impacting the game. I can see the same thing with Dwight, LeBron, Kobe, KG, etc. But in order to differentiate between the players, I have to use hard evidence to see exactly what each is actually doing on the court. I can't just try to pick who is having the best year and the biggest impact using my eyes and brain, right? That would be like an investor picking what stocks to invest in by using past experiences, without analyzing actual company performance and figures. "Oh, Chipotle is delicious, I'll invest in that company! Oh, Derrick Rose looks like he's the most valuable, he should be MVP!"

And please don't say dumb things like games aren't played on a laptop. I'm quite aware of this, thank you. Statistics are used to evaluate/analyze players/performance, after the fact. When Kobe Bryant wants to breakdown the tendencies of who he's guarding in his next game, what is he going to utilize? Statistics. And like I said, I don't care what the masses and media think. They'll figure it out eventually, after all it only took about a century for baseball guys to figure it out.