2011 NBA MVP Thread

[everysingletime]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

but if you're shooting 44% on the season you're simply not having the same impact as someone shooting 54% for the season, ceteris paribus.





You value efficiency too much.  And you keep looking at efficiency in a vacuum and not analyzing why person A may be efficient and person B is not.

When you're a 6"3 pg who needs to be both the 1 and the 2 for your team and you're drawing the same kind of defensive attention that a Kobe or a Melo is getting, is it realistic to assume that you can maintain a certain scoring output with the same efficiency that one might achieve when you're not receiving as much defensive attention? 

Rose's fg percentage went down from the season before but that's because defensive intensity on him also went up.  You are kidding yourself if you believe otherwise. 

Furthermore, it's easier to maintain a certain efficiency rate when you don't put put as much pressure on yourself to score.  Just look at Ray Allen I dunno what the numbers are but I think he's having a career year in terms of fg percentage but that's because his fg attempts went down to something like 12 a game (I haven't checked Allen's stats for a while so don't shoot me if stats are different now). 

You ask Rose to attempt just 12 a game and that would be a disaster for the Bulls, because the Bulls need him to score.  Allen can get away with 12 a game because the Celtics are a more balanced offensive team. 

Do you see what I'm saying? 

 

[everysingletime]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

but if you're shooting 44% on the season you're simply not having the same impact as someone shooting 54% for the season, ceteris paribus.





You value efficiency too much.  And you keep looking at efficiency in a vacuum and not analyzing why person A may be efficient and person B is not.

When you're a 6"3 pg who needs to be both the 1 and the 2 for your team and you're drawing the same kind of defensive attention that a Kobe or a Melo is getting, is it realistic to assume that you can maintain a certain scoring output with the same efficiency that one might achieve when you're not receiving as much defensive attention? 

Rose's fg percentage went down from the season before but that's because defensive intensity on him also went up.  You are kidding yourself if you believe otherwise. 

Furthermore, it's easier to maintain a certain efficiency rate when you don't put put as much pressure on yourself to score.  Just look at Ray Allen I dunno what the numbers are but I think he's having a career year in terms of fg percentage but that's because his fg attempts went down to something like 12 a game (I haven't checked Allen's stats for a while so don't shoot me if stats are different now). 

You ask Rose to attempt just 12 a game and that would be a disaster for the Bulls, because the Bulls need him to score.  Allen can get away with 12 a game because the Celtics are a more balanced offensive team. 

Do you see what I'm saying? 

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

You keep saying that stats don't tell the whole story. And then you say something like, "So please, put them away." So clearly you're not using stats at all to come up with your candidate, because every single one of them says that Derrick Rose has not had the best year, and has not had the biggest on-court impact. Toughness, leadership, heart, etc. are great qualities shared by a lot of great players, and you can be the toughest guy and the best leader in the world, but if you're shooting 44% on the season you're simply not having the same impact as someone shooting 54% for the season, ceteris paribus.

I prove that Derrick Rose hasn't been "clutch" throughout the season with FACTS, and you dismiss it by saying it doesn't matter and by posting emoticons. How does that work? Wasn't that your argument for Rose primarily based on how he's been there in "big moments?" Clearly he hasn't scored well (37%), or passed well, and has turned it over too much in the last 5 minutes of close games. But that doesn't matter! Why? Because CP1708 says so!

And we can actually measure value. One such metric is called win shares. Look it up. And it's actually a statistically significant measurement. Look that up too.

FYI, I've been blessed with the ability to buy league pass, and have been watching games all season. I can regularly see Derrick Rose playing great and impacting the game. I can see the same thing with Dwight, LeBron, Kobe, KG, etc. But in order to differentiate between the players, I have to use hard evidence to see exactly what each is actually doing on the court. I can't just try to pick who is having the best year and the biggest impact using my eyes and brain, right? That would be like an investor picking what stocks to invest in by using past experiences, without analyzing actual company performance and figures. "Oh, Chipotle is delicious, I'll invest in that company! Oh, Derrick Rose looks like he's the most valuable, he should be MVP!"

And please don't say dumb things like games aren't played on a laptop. I'm quite aware of this, thank you. Statistics are used to evaluate/analyze players/performance, after the fact. When Kobe Bryant wants to breakdown the tendencies of who he's guarding in his next game, what is he going to utilize? Statistics. And like I said, I don't care what the masses and media think. They'll figure it out eventually, after all it only took about a century for baseball guys to figure it out.

Ok, so for the record, state who YOU think is the MVP of the NBA, right now.  Who are YOU voting for (if we all had votes) 

Win shares.........so then you are on record as saying that Chris Paul is our MVP this year?  That's the name you're about to give me then, correct? 

  

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

You keep saying that stats don't tell the whole story. And then you say something like, "So please, put them away." So clearly you're not using stats at all to come up with your candidate, because every single one of them says that Derrick Rose has not had the best year, and has not had the biggest on-court impact. Toughness, leadership, heart, etc. are great qualities shared by a lot of great players, and you can be the toughest guy and the best leader in the world, but if you're shooting 44% on the season you're simply not having the same impact as someone shooting 54% for the season, ceteris paribus.

I prove that Derrick Rose hasn't been "clutch" throughout the season with FACTS, and you dismiss it by saying it doesn't matter and by posting emoticons. How does that work? Wasn't that your argument for Rose primarily based on how he's been there in "big moments?" Clearly he hasn't scored well (37%), or passed well, and has turned it over too much in the last 5 minutes of close games. But that doesn't matter! Why? Because CP1708 says so!

And we can actually measure value. One such metric is called win shares. Look it up. And it's actually a statistically significant measurement. Look that up too.

FYI, I've been blessed with the ability to buy league pass, and have been watching games all season. I can regularly see Derrick Rose playing great and impacting the game. I can see the same thing with Dwight, LeBron, Kobe, KG, etc. But in order to differentiate between the players, I have to use hard evidence to see exactly what each is actually doing on the court. I can't just try to pick who is having the best year and the biggest impact using my eyes and brain, right? That would be like an investor picking what stocks to invest in by using past experiences, without analyzing actual company performance and figures. "Oh, Chipotle is delicious, I'll invest in that company! Oh, Derrick Rose looks like he's the most valuable, he should be MVP!"

And please don't say dumb things like games aren't played on a laptop. I'm quite aware of this, thank you. Statistics are used to evaluate/analyze players/performance, after the fact. When Kobe Bryant wants to breakdown the tendencies of who he's guarding in his next game, what is he going to utilize? Statistics. And like I said, I don't care what the masses and media think. They'll figure it out eventually, after all it only took about a century for baseball guys to figure it out.

Ok, so for the record, state who YOU think is the MVP of the NBA, right now.  Who are YOU voting for (if we all had votes) 

Win shares.........so then you are on record as saying that Chris Paul is our MVP this year?  That's the name you're about to give me then, correct? 

  

 

[abovelegit1]

amel: That's fine and all, but this is an MVP debate, and the only thing that matters is Rose's performance relative to other MVP candidates. And that 44% FG is just one strike against his candidacy. And I was just using the percentage as an example of impact, ceteris paribus. Besides, the FG percentage could be overlooked, but fact is he's taking 20 shots to get 25 points.

Oh, and FYI, the best players are almost always the most efficient players.

Ok, so for the record, state who YOU think is the MVP of the NBA, right now.  Who are YOU voting for (if we all had votes) 

Winshares.........so then you are on record as saying that Chris Paul isour MVP this year?  That's the name you're about to give me then,correct?
I would vote for Howard, as of today. And win shares is just ONE such metric measuring value, as I said.

 

[abovelegit1]

amel: That's fine and all, but this is an MVP debate, and the only thing that matters is Rose's performance relative to other MVP candidates. And that 44% FG is just one strike against his candidacy. And I was just using the percentage as an example of impact, ceteris paribus. Besides, the FG percentage could be overlooked, but fact is he's taking 20 shots to get 25 points.

Oh, and FYI, the best players are almost always the most efficient players.

Ok, so for the record, state who YOU think is the MVP of the NBA, right now.  Who are YOU voting for (if we all had votes) 

Winshares.........so then you are on record as saying that Chris Paul isour MVP this year?  That's the name you're about to give me then,correct?
I would vote for Howard, as of today. And win shares is just ONE such metric measuring value, as I said.

 

[|A-Man|]

If you look at the stats and watch the games Rose isn't MVP. Dudes is talking like the ppl who bring up stats aren't watching games and are just waiting for them to finish to look at the stats.

Of course stats don't tell the whole story. That's why you watch the game but it seems as long as the team gets the W yall will ignore what you're suppose to be looking at; the individual's performance.

 

[|A-Man|]

If you look at the stats and watch the games Rose isn't MVP. Dudes is talking like the ppl who bring up stats aren't watching games and are just waiting for them to finish to look at the stats.

Of course stats don't tell the whole story. That's why you watch the game but it seems as long as the team gets the W yall will ignore what you're suppose to be looking at; the individual's performance.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Ok, so for the record, state who YOU think is the MVP of the NBA, right now.  Who are YOU voting for (if we all had votes) 

Win shares.........so then you are on record as saying that Chris Paul is our MVP this year?  That's the name you're about to give me then, correct?

I would vote for Howard, as of today. And win shares is just ONE such metric measuring value, as I said.

Thank you, now we're getting somewhere. 

So you feel that the MVP can easily come from a #4 seed then? 

And that he should be avoided late in games because of his sub par free throw shooting, therefore he can carry a team for 44 minutes, but the last 4, someone else has to do the job.  (a role that was Hedo's in his previous stint in Orld) 

You also like that Dwight dominates an NBA that is completely lacking for true quality centers in the league, and he merely feasts on these guys.  Meanwhile, as I mentioned in a previous post, Rose is going every night vs a pretty good PG since that is probably the deepest position in the NBA right now, a lot like the PF spot was in the 01-05 seasons.  

Do I have this correctly here? 

  

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Ok, so for the record, state who YOU think is the MVP of the NBA, right now.  Who are YOU voting for (if we all had votes) 

Win shares.........so then you are on record as saying that Chris Paul is our MVP this year?  That's the name you're about to give me then, correct?

I would vote for Howard, as of today. And win shares is just ONE such metric measuring value, as I said.

Thank you, now we're getting somewhere. 

So you feel that the MVP can easily come from a #4 seed then? 

And that he should be avoided late in games because of his sub par free throw shooting, therefore he can carry a team for 44 minutes, but the last 4, someone else has to do the job.  (a role that was Hedo's in his previous stint in Orld) 

You also like that Dwight dominates an NBA that is completely lacking for true quality centers in the league, and he merely feasts on these guys.  Meanwhile, as I mentioned in a previous post, Rose is going every night vs a pretty good PG since that is probably the deepest position in the NBA right now, a lot like the PF spot was in the 01-05 seasons.  

Do I have this correctly here? 

  

 

[mrtramericanjr]

iverson shot 42% and won mvp........... rose is at 44% so the argument about field goal percentage isnt needed


The guy is the most valuable player on a winning team fpr the 2010-2011 season

 

[mrtramericanjr]

iverson shot 42% and won mvp........... rose is at 44% so the argument about field goal percentage isnt needed


The guy is the most valuable player on a winning team fpr the 2010-2011 season

 

[airmaxpenny1]

@ Rose being the #1 and  #2 on the team...Bulls fan love to make it seem like Rose plays with the likes of Clarence Weatherspoon and Howard Eisley @%+* out of here

 

[airmaxpenny1]

@ Rose being the #1 and  #2 on the team...Bulls fan love to make it seem like Rose plays with the likes of Clarence Weatherspoon and Howard Eisley @%+* out of here

 

[CP1708]

^
I'm the one that said he was making up for the lack of a solid SG.  Not Bulls fans. 

And I think the Bulls would be lucky to have Weatherspoon or Eisley right now to be honest. 

 

You think their shooting guards are solid?  Cuz I'm pretty sure I mentioned that it was their weakest position on the team..........and, pretty sure I'm right on that.   No?

 

[CP1708]

^
I'm the one that said he was making up for the lack of a solid SG.  Not Bulls fans. 

And I think the Bulls would be lucky to have Weatherspoon or Eisley right now to be honest. 

 

You think their shooting guards are solid?  Cuz I'm pretty sure I mentioned that it was their weakest position on the team..........and, pretty sure I'm right on that.   No?

 

[deuce king]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

I would vote for Howard, as of today. And win shares is just ONE such metric measuring value, as I said.

Dwight Howard huh??  I'll be sure to pay attention to his game TONIGHT to see how he performs.........

  

 

[deuce king]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

I would vote for Howard, as of today. And win shares is just ONE such metric measuring value, as I said.

Dwight Howard huh??  I'll be sure to pay attention to his game TONIGHT to see how he performs.........

  

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Ok, so for the record, state who YOU think is the MVP of the NBA, right now.  Who are YOU voting for (if we all had votes) 

Win shares.........so then you are on record as saying that Chris Paul is our MVP this year?  That's the name you're about to give me then, correct?

I would vote for Howard, as of today. And win shares is just ONE such metric measuring value, as I said.

Thank you, now we're getting somewhere. 

So you feel that the MVP can easily come from a #4 seed then? 

And that he should be avoided late in games because of his sub par free throw shooting, therefore he can carry a team for 44 minutes, but the last 4, someone else has to do the job.  (a role that was Hedo's in his previous stint in Orld) 

You also like that Dwight dominates an NBA that is completely lacking for true quality centers in the league, and he merely feasts on these guys.  Meanwhile, as I mentioned in a previous post, Rose is going every night vs a pretty good PG since that is probably the deepest position in the NBA right now, a lot like the PF spot was in the 01-05 seasons.  

Do I have this correctly here? 

  
Yes, I believe an MVP should be able to come from a 4th seed, as long as that team has over 50 wins. Again, I don't really follow the dogmatic thinking of the masses. And I like how you're implying that Dwight shouldn't be the leading candidate because he's taken out of the game for two or three offensive possesions, in the 1/4 games that necessitate such strategy as intentionally fouling. But in the 1/2 games where Rose takes 25 shots to get 25 points he's not a liability, right?

Dwight is a center. He essentially anchors the defense. So when terrible defenders with limited lateral quickness like Turkoglu, Richardson, and Nelson get beat off the dribble, who's the only line of the defense remaining? Despite being on a team of stiffs, Dwights help defense is so great that the Magic are one of the best defensive teams in the league. Not to mention the fact that he gets doubled and fronted more than EVERY other player in the league.

Dwight Howard huh??  I'll be sure to pay attention to his game TONIGHT to see how he performs.........
Good for you.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Ok, so for the record, state who YOU think is the MVP of the NBA, right now.  Who are YOU voting for (if we all had votes) 

Win shares.........so then you are on record as saying that Chris Paul is our MVP this year?  That's the name you're about to give me then, correct?

I would vote for Howard, as of today. And win shares is just ONE such metric measuring value, as I said.

Thank you, now we're getting somewhere. 

So you feel that the MVP can easily come from a #4 seed then? 

And that he should be avoided late in games because of his sub par free throw shooting, therefore he can carry a team for 44 minutes, but the last 4, someone else has to do the job.  (a role that was Hedo's in his previous stint in Orld) 

You also like that Dwight dominates an NBA that is completely lacking for true quality centers in the league, and he merely feasts on these guys.  Meanwhile, as I mentioned in a previous post, Rose is going every night vs a pretty good PG since that is probably the deepest position in the NBA right now, a lot like the PF spot was in the 01-05 seasons.  

Do I have this correctly here? 

  
Yes, I believe an MVP should be able to come from a 4th seed, as long as that team has over 50 wins. Again, I don't really follow the dogmatic thinking of the masses. And I like how you're implying that Dwight shouldn't be the leading candidate because he's taken out of the game for two or three offensive possesions, in the 1/4 games that necessitate such strategy as intentionally fouling. But in the 1/2 games where Rose takes 25 shots to get 25 points he's not a liability, right?

Dwight is a center. He essentially anchors the defense. So when terrible defenders with limited lateral quickness like Turkoglu, Richardson, and Nelson get beat off the dribble, who's the only line of the defense remaining? Despite being on a team of stiffs, Dwights help defense is so great that the Magic are one of the best defensive teams in the league. Not to mention the fact that he gets doubled and fronted more than EVERY other player in the league.

Dwight Howard huh??  I'll be sure to pay attention to his game TONIGHT to see how he performs.........
Good for you.

 

[mrtramericanjr]

they added boozer, korver, brewer, asik, kurt thomas, bogans to a 41 win team, all those players beside boozer was sort after boozer is a 20/10 type dude,but you dont really feel his impact....not saying he doesnthave great games,but the impact of rose, noah and deng is felt ..........Bogans is just trash, next season they better get a player,,,, a non injured michael redd would be perfect

 

[mrtramericanjr]

they added boozer, korver, brewer, asik, kurt thomas, bogans to a 41 win team, all those players beside boozer was sort after boozer is a 20/10 type dude,but you dont really feel his impact....not saying he doesnthave great games,but the impact of rose, noah and deng is felt ..........Bogans is just trash, next season they better get a player,,,, a non injured michael redd would be perfect

 

[everysingletime]

You think their shooting guards are solid?


I don't think the Bulls 2's are garbage but none of them are shot creators. 

Brewer is a finisher not a creator. 

Korver's the same way but his finishes are 15-20 feet out. 

The two guys who are probably best at creating their own shot are Boozer and CJ Watson.  Everybody else I consider to be dependent scorers.  They need the ball in the perfect spot and can't make something out of nothing. 

 

[everysingletime]

You think their shooting guards are solid?


I don't think the Bulls 2's are garbage but none of them are shot creators. 

Brewer is a finisher not a creator. 

Korver's the same way but his finishes are 15-20 feet out. 

The two guys who are probably best at creating their own shot are Boozer and CJ Watson.  Everybody else I consider to be dependent scorers.  They need the ball in the perfect spot and can't make something out of nothing. 

 

[mrtramericanjr]

i hate cj watson as the bulls back up pg,,,smh