2013-2014 NBA Finals - Spurs SMASH Heat 4-1 - San Antonio Spurs NBA Champions [RIP Dwyane Wade]

[shoeking2101]

Wins and losses are pretty definitive and indicative @shoeking101, so are the players during those eras. They were what they were and the Spurs are what they are. Comparisons happenin every sports and there's various measurables we can use to backup our viewpoints, it's why debate in general is great.

Wins and losses are definitive and indicative to what extent? It doesn't account for circumstance and comparing players across eras doesn't account for circumstance(s) either. The Various measurables that you alluded to are there sure, but it just leaves out so much to me. How can you say one player or team is "the best" because of how they performed during their era? Who's to say they would have been that successful had they played in a different era? There's no numbers that can give you that.

But I get it, I understand it. It's fun to try and see how teams from different eras, years, and generations compare against each other. I just don't see how you could say one team is "definitively and indicatively" better than another. When I try and compare, just far too many variables need to be answered to make it happen.

 

[a-friend]

It's not possible to accurately compare different teams or different players from different eras.
It's possible to debate it, and it will be debated on forums. It can be draining to read, but it's entertaining to participate in, as a fan.
Great arguments can be made that Magic or Wilt are GOATS and Jordan takes a back seat, but none will ever convince me that MJ Is anything other than the best ever. TBE GOAT whatever, MJ is basketball

 

[MVP]

Well it's a myriad of factors. If you want to use point differential fine, it's a good stat, regular season/playoff record, performance of the players on said team and what point were they in their careers, the teams that were in their way to get to that point. Take the 91 Bulls for example. They won 61 games during the regular season, had the league MVP in MJ, had a +199 point differential in 17 games losing only 2 in the entire playoffs with two sweeps along the way including the two time defending champs in Detroit followed by a gentleman's sweep of the team that ran the 80s in the Lakers. I think it's pretty safe with just those facts, they belong in the pantheon of all time great teams, not even going into the players that were in their way. I could do that with every one of those teams Magic lost to, going back to the original debate.

With all things being somewhat similar, their has to be some points of separation and when one team has a clear advantage in one area that by definition would make them a better team no?

 

[jab step]

I'll say it again. This was one of the greatest teams in the past 20 years.

Kobe and Jordan never faced a team this good in the Finals.

Those Boston teams 2008 2010. People forget how great they were. The Spurs did their thing, but don't overrate them.

And I HATED the Celtics, but I have to give them their props. 

The Spurs played the Mavs and Portland the first two rounds. I wouldn't call those teams contenders at all. They played OKC, who played them well, but not to put an excuse out there, not having Ibaka those first two games really hurt them. They demolished Miami, major props to them, but this wasn't the same Miami team. 

 

[shoeking2101]

Well it's a myriad of factors. If you want to use point differential fine, it's a good stat, regular season/playoff record, performance of the players on said team and what point were they in their careers, the teams that were in their way to get to that point. Take the 91 Bulls for example. They won 61 games during the regular season, had the league MVP in MJ, had a +199 point differential in 17 games losing only 2 in the entire playoffs with two sweeps along the way including the two time defending champs in Detroit followed by a gentleman's sweep of the team that ran the 80s in the Lakers. I think it's pretty safe with just those facts, they belong in the pantheon of all time great teams, not even going into the players that were in their way. I could do that with every one of those teams Magic lost to, going back to the original debate.

But see thats what im saying. Those stats only prove how great those teams were during that time and for that, those teams absolutely belong in being some of the greatest teams of all time. Its when people try and find that one team, that one player, and label them as the best player or team, thats when it bothers me because we just cant configure a way to see how the 96 bulls would fair against russell's celtics, provided they both are in the league at the same time whether it be the 60's or the 90's. Examples like that are why im so hesitant with it.

I just prefer best team / player of era or generation or decade rather than trying to singularize it out. Too hard

 

[pmatic]

Any reference of a gentleman's sweep gets a from me.

 

[antidope]

Quote:



[h1]OFFSEASON OUTLOOK: SAN ANTONIO SPURS[/h1]


2014 NBA OFFSEASON, GREGG POPOVICH, KAWHI LEONARD, MANU GINOBILI, PATTY MILLS, ROB MAHONEY,SAN ANTONIO SPURS, TIM DUNCAN, TONY PARKER





BY ROB MAHONEY

Tim Duncan, 38, has a $10 million player option for next season. (David Sherman/NBAE via Getty Images)



Here’s a look at what’s in store for the Spurs this offseason after their victory over the Heat in the NBA Finals.





Free agents: Tim Duncan (PO), Tony Parker (nonguaranteed, very unlikely to be released), Boris Diaw (UFA), Patty Mills (UFA), Matt Bonner (UFA), Aron Baynes (possible RFA)



Early termination option (ETO) — Allows a player to terminate his contract early.
Player option (PO) — Allows a player to accept or decline the final year of his deal.
Team option (TO) — Allows a team to accept or decline an option year.
Unrestricted free agent (UFA) — Allowed to sign with the team of his choosing.
Restricted free agent (RFA) — Subject to the right of first refusal from incumbent team.





Cap situation: Working room



Draft picks: No. 30, No. 58, No. 60



• What’s the biggest priority for San Antonio this offseason?



Continuity. That’s an odd thing to say of a championship team with two vital players who will be 37 or older by the end of the summer, but San Antonio can ride out the careers of Duncan and Manu Ginobili while remaining competitive. Parker can step into an even larger role if needed.NBA Finals MVP Kawhi Leonard, who turns 23 in two weeks, is evolving by the minute and already registers the impact of a star. Moves will need to be made eventually to transition one era of Spurs basketball to the next, but they can wait if Duncan and Ginobili are willing to go another round. Assuming that’s the case, San Antonio would contend for the Western Conference crown again. Earning a return trip to the Finals, however, should prove even more difficult against a crop of contenders (including the Thunder, Warriors, Clippers and Rockets) with room to grow.



TAYLOR: Greatness of the Duncan-Popovich tandem



The title defense starts with securing the status quo. Diaw and Mills were instrumental in the playoff run, especially Diaw during the Finals. The 32-year-old forward is in a position to command more than the $4.1 million he made this season, and the Spurs — who have a tidy cap sheet — may be in a position to oblige him. Determining Diaw’s market value, however, is tricky. A big man with his playmaking abilities could be useful in many contexts, but because of a well-honed system predicated on ball movement and spacing, San Antonio is suited to maximize those talents in a way that other teams are not. Otherwise, Diaw isn’t a rim protector, doesn’t pile up rebounds (he averaged just 5.9 per 36 minutes this season) and rarely acts as a concerted scorer. How much is a player like that worth to any team that isn’t the Spurs?

• How can the Spurs improve this offseason? Through free agency? The draft? Trade?



Free agency or trade. The Spurs’ cap figure depends largely on Duncan’s decision (he has a $10 million player option) and Diaw’s negotiations. If he’s feeling particularly generous, Duncan could decline his option and commit to an even smaller deal, freeing San Antonio to lock up players like Diaw and Mills while exploring a wider range of free-agent options. If Duncan accepts his option, however, Diaw and Mills could wind up eating into much of the team’s theoretical room under the cap. That said, while Diaw and Mills are helpful players, they are notso  essential as to leave San Antonio without other options; it is possible that both are let go as the Spurs engage other free-agent targets.



MAHONEY: LeBron, Heat face uncertain future



Regardless, the Spurs tend to redeem incredible value no matter their amount of financial flexibility. Diaw, Mills and Danny Green were all brought in on minimum deals. Tiago Splitter was had for a portion of the mid-level exception. The front office does an impeccable job of identifying affordable players who fit its system — many of whom were discarded by other teams. The trade market could provide another means of acquiring underutilized talent, with Splitter, Green and Marco Belinelli all enticing players on reasonable contracts. Splitter and Green wouldn’t be dealt easily because they fill such valuable roles for San Antonio, but it’s not out of the question for some trade partner to overpay for a contributor with championship glow.



And, of course: Should Duncan decide to retire, all bets are off. It’s impossible to project a Spurs team without Duncan (and possibly without coach Gregg Popovich) because we haven’t seen San Antonio’s management team operate without that all-time great anchor at the center of its play and culture. If Duncan calls it a career, “improvement” would come secondary to a franchise rebirth.



• Will the Spurs sign Leonard to an extension?



This summer marks San Antonio’s first chance to extend Leonard’s rookie-scale contract. (If no agreement is reached, Leonard would become a restricted free agent in July 2015.) No player is more important to the Spurs’ future than Leonard. Even if he lacks the skills as a shot creator to function as a traditional star, his intuition, developmental curve and fill-the-gaps game make him one of the league’s most intriguing players. One could easily argue that Leonard deserves the max, with Paul George’s lucrative extension with the Pacers serving as a template.



The George comparison is a fair one. The two up-and-comers are asked to play different roles, but within those responsibilities both are skilled shooters, developing ball handlers, terrific positional rebounders and worthy All-Defensive team selections. Leonard might not be at George’s level in some respects, but he’s an attractive piece to build around because of his ability to be whatever the Spurs need from possession to possession. General manager R.C. Buford will ensure that Leonard sticks around, but the Spurs have an impressive track record of persuading quality players to accept less than their market value. Perhaps the same will be true in this case, whether a deal is struck this summer or through restricted free agency next year.

I wouldnt be mad at him for chasing the money, but I really hope Patty Mills decides to come back. He would be hard to replace at this point. Kawhi definitely desevres a huge payday, maybe not what Paul George got, but thats moreso becuase George is over rated and overpaid. 

 

[pmatic]

Will be interesting how much Mills and Diaw command on the open market.

 

[antidope]

Will be interesting how much Mills and Diaw command on the open market.

Diaws case is funny. He desevres money, but what he does cant be utilized by many teams I dont think. Hes best served staying here. Mills on the other hand, is primed to see a big payday, hell he would be a drastic upgrade over both Miami PGs. Off season is gonna be scary man

 

[pmatic]

Diaw, I would give 3 years-$12 million. Make the last year a partial or non-gurantee.

Mills is tough to gauge. Maybe 3 years-$10 million? I wouldn't go much higher than that.

 

[antidope]

I had the inverse of that in my mind 

. Honestly if they want that kind of money give it to them. I'm all for keeping this roster together for as long as possible. Its been a long time since I've seen a Spurs team this good. I thought last years team was good, but this one just makes them look slightly above average.

---

I called out sick from work yesterday and everyone thinks I did it because of the championship 

.

 

[HEATHEN]

So I was watching ESPN earlier, obviously listening to all the coverage and debates.


And I got to thinking, where does Timmy fall on the all-time list?


I've had it like this for a while....

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Big O......


But now I'm thinking.....TD is a 2x MVP, a 5x world Champion, 3x Finals MVP, 10x NBA First-Team, 8x Defensive First-Team.......


And the Spurs are looking like they'll likely be intact for another season. If the Spurs win another one next season, and TD shows up still putting up 15 and 10 at a better than 50% clip.....He has to be top 5 all-time, right?

I mean, even if he gets deep into the playoffs, like the WC finals that would be a no small feat....

Where do you all put Duncan on your top-10? Anyone already have him top-5?


I know folks are going to be quick to call blasphemy putting him ahead of Bill Russell but let's be objective here.

 

[HEATHEN]

Diaw, I would give 3 years-$12 million. Make the last year a partial or non-gurantee.

Mills is tough to gauge. Maybe 3 years-$10 million? I wouldn't go much higher than that.

I'd give Diaw no more than 2 years 7 milli....He's not exactly a spring chicken. Gotta be realistic about how he fits the Spurs as they are built now. If Ginobli and TD retire after next season then what?


You got Diaw for another 2 years at 4 million a year?


Naw bruh....



Keep in mind that the Spurs have Livio Jean-Charles, DeShaun Thomas, Davis Bertans, Adam Hanga, Ryan Richards and Marcus Denmon all stashed overseas......

They'll likely look to tap into that talent pool this off-season.

 

[pmatic]

You're willing to give him $3.5M per for two years while I would be willing to give him $4M per for two years...

 

[HEATHEN]

You're willing to give him $3.5M per for two years while I would be willing to give him $4M per for two years...

you said 3 years bro....big difference....


I could see TD playing one more season, Ginobli 2...after that what are you gonna do with a 35 year old Diaw?


But if the Spurs can make that 3rd year non-guaranteed then cool.

 

[pmatic]

And I clearly stated to make that last year non-guaranteed or a partial guarantee.

 

[HEATHEN]

And I clearly stated to make that last year non-guaranteed or a partial guarantee.

you did.

 

[antidope]

I've thought Tim Duncan was top 5 for a long time, but I'm also biased.

 

[finnns2003]

93 Bulls with a prime MJ/Pippen duo + Phil would be a nightmare.

01 Lakers.

86 Celtics

85 Lakers


And for the questioning of Magic, he went to 9 Finals in 12 years. Stop, just stop.

It includes a run of Finals he went to in 82, 83, 84, 85, 87, 88, and 89. That's 7 times in 8 years.

He retired at 31. Kobe, Duncan, KG, Nash etc all playing to almost 40. MJ as well. Let Magic have a complete finish to his career and his totals would have been STUPID.

Duncan just became all time playoff double double leader with 158. In 233 or so games.

Magic had 157. In 190 games.


He won a college title vs Bird. Went into the pros and won 5 titles his first 9 years. That's 6 titles in 10 years counting the College one as a Sophomore.


Please people, stop trying to examine Wikipedia for ways to discredit Magic Johnson.

He battled and era with Dr J, Moses Malone, Bird, Isiah, Nique, Stockton-Malone, Run TMC, Barkley, Ewing, Dream, and Mike all during their primes or early primes.

Choose another battle.

Yeah, Magic is pretty much untouchable with this resume.

 

[Mamba4life]

Yeah, Magic is pretty much untouchable with this resume.

Whenever there is a GOAT discussion, there are a handful of players who have STRONG cases. Magic is definitely one of them.

 

[offset pow clow]

Lets just act like kareem & worthy are avg players to boost magics resume but the heat are STACKED

 

[do work son]

Lets just act like kareem & worthy are avg players to boost magics resume but the heat are STACKED

I have no problem with magic playing with other stars. That's how the nba works. It's just funny that we only hold it against LeBron. The only difference is that magic,bird,Jordan, Kobe had stars brought to them.

 

[shoelyesses]

I have no problem with magic playing with other stars. That's how the nba works. It's just funny that we only hold it against LeBron. The only difference is that magic,bird,Jordan, Kobe had stars brought to them.

which is why ownership/management is so important...ppl tend to conveniently overlook and discredit how much ownership/management plays in the success of a team.

Its like ppl will blame the gm's etc.... when their team suck and their fav player has no one around them. Hail the player(s) etc... when their team is good. And blame players they dislike etc.... when the gm's etc... suck and mismanage the team. 

Its funny how that works out when ppl act like jerry buss and dan gilbert are at the same level ah something.... or act like presti and dolan are on the same level as far as basketball iq and management etc.... Its like ppl think the players have executive decisions and are wheeling/dealing making moves etc. Sure some cache player get some say, and theyre allowed to voice their opinions. But its not like they get the last word or final say. 

 

[Proposition Joe]

93 Bulls with a prime MJ/Pippen duo + Phil would be a nightmare.

01 Lakers.

86 Celtics

85 Lakers


And for the questioning of Magic, he went to 9 Finals in 12 years. Stop, just stop.

It includes a run of Finals he went to in 82, 83, 84, 85, 87, 88, and 89. That's 7 times in 8 years.

He retired at 31. Kobe, Duncan, KG, Nash etc all playing to almost 40. MJ as well. Let Magic have a complete finish to his career and his totals would have been STUPID.

Duncan just became all time playoff double double leader with 158. In 233 or so games.

Magic had 157. In 190 games.


He won a college title vs Bird. Went into the pros and won 5 titles his first 9 years. That's 6 titles in 10 years counting the College one as a Sophomore.


Please people, stop trying to examine Wikipedia for ways to discredit Magic Johnson.

He battled and era with Dr J, Moses Malone, Bird, Isiah, Nique, Stockton-Malone, Run TMC, Barkley, Ewing, Dream, and Mike all during their primes or early primes.

Choose another battle.

One could argue the nba was different back then and easier for those stacked teams to win, also the players you named who he battled will always be named for nostalgia reason and because they were the face of the nba when it was at its height in popularity, but I bet a team with Kobe, shaq, Lebron, Durant, iverson and dirk would blow them out

Everyone can choose to be stuck in that era if they want and it's mainly because that's what we watched growing up, honestly though players are much faster and athletic now and play against way tougher defensive schemes.

Duncan >>>>>>


Jordan still the goat though

 

[dchozn1]

I have no problem with magic playing with other stars. That's how the nba works. It's just funny that we only hold it against LeBron. The only difference is that magic,bird,Jordan, Kobe had stars brought to them.

I think LeBron could have went to any contending team in free agency and would have won two titles. He's that good. The way the Heat came together just rub some purists (fans/players) the wrong way.