Are the Cavs serious right now?????....Lebron and Kobe stans galore

Dude, you gotta stop doing that.  I say it's possible that if you switch Kobe and Bron the Lakers don't win because Bron hasn't proven @#$% and you list 10 hall of famers as a full damn unit.  Then I say, no, one for one switch here, and you pick Bill @#$%^&* Wennington? 
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Come on gosh damn it, at least be in the ball park.  You know damn well you doin that stupid @#$% on purpose. 
If we're going to play what if and switch Bron and Kobe, and we're splitting hairs about them, one winning on the biggest stage, and another not having a single finals victory in his career, CAN and WILL be brought up.  Talking about Kobe and Bill Wennington, is not the same man.  We're talking about one elitte and another.  This is YOUR what if game I'm playing, your imaginary ring argument. 

I know of your affection for Hill, Pip, and Dream, but point still stands, you ride for a PLAYER, not a team.  I been on this board 4+ years, every single solitary post has had the same exact sig.  Phins, Lakers, Cubs, Canes.  Never will change it either.  So if a discussion goes on about the Lakers, I'll be there.  If you bring up Magic, I'm there.  Kareem, I'm there.  Portland Trailblazers, I'm there.  (ok, not the same
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)  Bottom line, I can speak on anything NBA at any given time, if I caught the label as a Kobe guy, no prob with me, he's on my team.  If we traded him to the Bulls, I would still root for him to do well, but get his @#$ kicked when he played the Lakers.  Just how I had to do for years with Nick. 
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  The thing is I go for my team at all times, but that doesn't mean that I don't speak out against them when they do something stupid.  You don't do that, not at all.  All you do is ride Bron, and blame everybody else.  There is no end in sight for you.  You are so desperate to have him climb the mountain that you will accept anything he does as fine, and dismiss everyone else around him.  The fact you even said he should shut up about the Cavs was a BIG step for you.  I've called Kobe stupid for things millions of times.  But if you think I'm gonna sit here and just let people say stuff like this kid that has posted after me saying Kobe "demanded" a trade on draft day is just plain stupid.  People flat out make up whatever they feel like, put some " " marks around it and call it true. 
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  Shuges the biggest anti Kobe guy around and he and I have scoured everywhere trying to find actuall reports/claims FROM 96 that he asked for a trade.  Not articles from 2008 when Bob Bass spoke out and said he was "forced" to make a deal.  That's revisionist history.  We looked and looked and didn't find anything that was proof positive that Kobe forced a deal, so saying that is the same as what Bron did is ridiculous.  What Bron did don't even matter on this topic really, not sure where it came up but I assume you're still pissed about Kobe people laughing at him for it, and I get that, but that's not what I am in here for.  Lord knows my stalkers should be in here any time screamin at me. 
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No, I was saying as a fact, Lamar and Caron were nice peices.  Oddly, I remember the rumor at the time being us pushing for Wade and Riley saying no way.  How different that would have made the NBA landscape today.  I was going in order in terms of who we had left after the trade, and then who we got for Shaq, etc etc.  Again, you may think of me is some Kobe fan, but you couldn't be more wrong, well, unless you think of Ska as one. 
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  And for the 1 billionth time, the Grizz made out like bandits in that deal, the only problem was they didn't seal the deal so to speak.  3 first rounders, 10 mil in cap space, and a young 7 foot center for one guy that was 0-12 in playoff games and would never have gone anywhere other then maybe someday winning a series.  That's more then anybody gets for anybody.  Now the Grizz certainly didn't do well with their picks, they didn't spend the 10 mil wisely, and they still have Marc Gasol and hardly use him properly.  That's not on LA, that's not our fault.  They got a ton of assets and messed them up.  Look at it this way, if the Spurs traded us Gasol for 3 picks, (2, but Critt was a current first round pick in his rookie year) 10 mil, and a young center, it's almost definite they would have drafted two good players in the first roud, and spent the 10 mil on either one really good player, or maybe 2 solid role guys, right?  You see what I'm saying?  That deal was beyond fair, Memphis just did't know what to do with the assets they were given, that don't make the deal unfair. 

You tryna say that ESPN guys were claimin Kobe MVP over Gasol due to race?  That's your argument?  Damn, I dunno what to say to that.  I do know that you and I both went back and looked thru the history of the NBA finals, and like 95% of the time the leading scorer in the finals was MVP.  And if the leading scorer was the leading scorer by a wide margin, then it was %100.  I know you remember too, because you are the one that pointed out I was wrong about the 80 series, Kareem actually did outscore Magic, but since Magic had the big game in game 6 and Kareem missed the game, Magic was MVP.  You could make a case for Gasol all you want, but it wouldn't have held up compared to the rest of the finals MVP votings.  We've already done that argument.  I'd give anything to see the Heat win and have Wade get voted MVP and see you spin outta control on that one. 
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I'll check the boxscore and see what you refer too, but I know from my view, Gasol has been a blessing to the Lakers.  But for people to be caught up in the moment and pretend like he's the most dominant big in the NBA now and some bulldozing player is plain stupid.  He never won a single think in Memphis.  Whatever other talent around him, what have you.  You brought up his regular seasons vs Kobe's, but Kobe damn near had the 06 series, one rebound away from winning it.  Just one.  But he didn't, but that's more playoff wins in just that series then Pau has ever known before Kobe.  Gasol didn't suddenly become some God like player now that he wears Purple and Gold, there is someone that helps him with that.  He learned his lesson from 08, and thankfully worked very hard to improve, but Kobe has been doing this for our team for a decade and a half.  And while you sit around and try to make an excuse for Kobe getting a ring each and every ring he gets excuse after excuse while then coming up with an excuse as to why Bron doesn't have any, that's kind of customization at it's finest itself, is it not?  First it was cuz of Shaq, now it's cuz of Gasol, etc etc etc.  Meanwhile, the other guy couldn't win a single game.  But that's ok.  We don't need to bring those facts up, now do we?   

Man, I know that game, that's the first game we lost of the year. 
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  You picked THAT game? 
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Did you even watch the @#$%^& game?  Pau got his @#$ kicked in that game.  Yes, he had 20 rebounds, but he was MANHANDLED by Nene in that game.  @#$%, there wasn't even any Kenyon Martin or Chris Birdman and STILL Pau got beat like a drum by Nene.  Now, being fair, Pau didn't have Bynum and you could see he was starting to wear down due to heavy minutes, but that guy was straight up pushed around.  And if you look, we had an 8 point lead going into the 4th, by the time Kobe came back in, we were tied. 
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  Momentum was gone, Nuggets were rolling by then.  And in the final minute we still had it down to 4, but couldn't get over the hump.  That was a game we completely gave away.  No question we shoulda won that, but it's not on Pau or anybody really, it was a meaningless game in early November for heaven's sakes.  Nobody scapegoating the dude.  People probably said some stupid stuff in the heat of the moment, but look at who it was.  Same people probably thought we were going 82-0. 
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  I'm the first to tell you that some Laker fans go crazy for no damn reason.  We're spoiled, we expect to win every thing all the time.  I fight my own Laker fans ALL THE TIME about games in the regular season.  You can't throw that one game at me and tell me that us Laker fans hate Pau, or just choose Kobe.  Kobe has shot terribly in lots of games, and then found a way to help us win it.  Pau has played bad in games, and found a way to make a play.  But nobody with half a brain cares about a regular season "big" game.  There's no such thing.  I can think of like 5 true "big' regular season games in this last decade.  BIG games are in the playoffs, not regular season.  And trust me, I'm on record with that, all over this board.  People hate me for it. 
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  You need to find a better game then that. 
 
--Who said Kobe is GOAT?!
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Blasphemy. And he's my favorite player. He's no where near GOAT.
--But like I said in another thread or earlier in this thread, he is in the bottom half of the top 10.

--Xtapola...keep preachin dude. You are speaking truths. But still, "bow down" and respect as well.
 
--Who said Kobe is GOAT?!
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Blasphemy. And he's my favorite player. He's no where near GOAT.
--But like I said in another thread or earlier in this thread, he is in the bottom half of the top 10.

--Xtapola...keep preachin dude. You are speaking truths. But still, "bow down" and respect as well.
 
True that. So different compared to how the Bulls did when Jordan left for the first time. Boys played like they were still the champs.
 
True that. So different compared to how the Bulls did when Jordan left for the first time. Boys played like they were still the champs.
 
Be in the same ball park? You're treating my mentioning of LeBron winning rings with Shaq as if I mentioned some completely random player. And you want to talk about ball parks? That's not the same ball park. That's not even the same league. Hell, it's not even the same sport. Therefore, you best believe I'm bringing up old Bill Wennington. LeBron is seen by most analysts as the best, or at worst as one of the very best players in the league for some time now. But that doesn't matter to you. In the end, what matters is that he didn't win (we don't even have to discuss the supporting casts he didn't win with anymore), therefore mentioning that this non-winner would win 5-6 rings with Shaq is ridiculous, right? So you best believe I'm going to flip it: Everyone knows that Bill Wennington was a bad player, but hey he has 3 rings on his fingers. That's what matters. You damn right comparing Bill Wennington to LeBron is stupid. That's the whole damn point. Pointing out the stupidity. So you pretty much agree: Saying that someone is better because he has rings is stupid. And I will continue to bring up this "stupid" example to point out the stupidity of someone saying that rings are the sole factor that a certain player is better than a certain other player.

And we don't even have to go to examples that are as extreme as Bill Wennington. Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker and Paul Pierce are all Finals MVPs. It can be said that they led their teams to a championship. Are these three players better than LeBron James, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone?

The least you can do is try to compare the situations LeBron and Kobe were in when they entered the league as objectively as you can, and I know that this is very hard for you. One was playing with a center that was about to become like a kid in a candy store with the lack of centers the late 90s and early 00s would bring, while the other one was stuck on a franchise whose best result ever was one or two eastern conference finals appearances and who won 17 games the season before LeBron's arrival, and are about to win around 17 games again this season as soon as LeBron left.

And you keep calling me a LeBron rider, but none of this compares to LeBron hating. Do I read LeBron's twitter? Do I scan practice, pre- and post-game interviews to find quotes about him? Or do I do that about Kobe for that matter, do I try to find some quote of his to start a thread about? No, because I know damn well that no matter how "dumb" LeBron is in the stuff he says, or how "intelligent" Kobe is, or how much of a **** MJ is to Chamillionaire and in his HOF speech, it won't change how good he is on the court. And really, the only reason you're doing this is because you're insecure and you somehow hope that pointing out something stupid LeBron tweeted will somehow help you in an argument about who's the better basketball player, which it won't. You haters better worry about the intelligence of someone who may actually affect your lives, like Sarah Palin instead of a basketball player's. I've seen you homerize Kobe in plenty of threads where the Kobe-LeBron discussion was brought up, before I even replied in that thread. Don't even try to convince me that you aren't a Kobe homer.

And about scapgoating Gasol.. That's the whole problem. Somehow, blaming Kobe never is a part of the "heat of the moment". Other scapegoats are always looked for first.. Unless Kobe plays like complete garbage and you have NO excuse whatsoever.. And even then you sometimes try to put a positive spin by saying something like "At least he's the only trying to make something happen"... Or blame his poor performance on some dislocated finger, an on-off injury which mysteriously doesn't bother him on the nights when he's shooting well.

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@ "But nobody with half a brain cares about a regular season "big" game." Spoken like a true two straight Christmas day games loser. One of the best examples of criteria customization on the part of Kobe extremists. Back when Shaq was up 4-3 in rings won, regular season performances was all that mattered to you. And one particular regular season game against the Raptors was used as propaganda to make all kinds of claims about Kobe, that he is better than MJ, that he is GOAT, etc. But after the Gasol trade when the Lakers started winning, it's amazing how all of a sudden regular season performances didn't matter. The same when it comes to your treatment of a discussion about stats. LeBron has better stats than Kobe, but you try to skip past this by claiming that stats don't tell the whole story, or that stats don't matter at all. Oh yeah. Stats don't matter all right.. Except on a night where there is "81" in the "pts" section next to "Bryant, Kobe" on a box score. Then you better believe regular season game stats matter.
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Be in the same ball park? You're treating my mentioning of LeBron winning rings with Shaq as if I mentioned some completely random player. And you want to talk about ball parks? That's not the same ball park. That's not even the same league. Hell, it's not even the same sport. Therefore, you best believe I'm bringing up old Bill Wennington. LeBron is seen by most analysts as the best, or at worst as one of the very best players in the league for some time now. But that doesn't matter to you. In the end, what matters is that he didn't win (we don't even have to discuss the supporting casts he didn't win with anymore), therefore mentioning that this non-winner would win 5-6 rings with Shaq is ridiculous, right? So you best believe I'm going to flip it: Everyone knows that Bill Wennington was a bad player, but hey he has 3 rings on his fingers. That's what matters. You damn right comparing Bill Wennington to LeBron is stupid. That's the whole damn point. Pointing out the stupidity. So you pretty much agree: Saying that someone is better because he has rings is stupid. And I will continue to bring up this "stupid" example to point out the stupidity of someone saying that rings are the sole factor that a certain player is better than a certain other player.

And we don't even have to go to examples that are as extreme as Bill Wennington. Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker and Paul Pierce are all Finals MVPs. It can be said that they led their teams to a championship. Are these three players better than LeBron James, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone?

The least you can do is try to compare the situations LeBron and Kobe were in when they entered the league as objectively as you can, and I know that this is very hard for you. One was playing with a center that was about to become like a kid in a candy store with the lack of centers the late 90s and early 00s would bring, while the other one was stuck on a franchise whose best result ever was one or two eastern conference finals appearances and who won 17 games the season before LeBron's arrival, and are about to win around 17 games again this season as soon as LeBron left.

And you keep calling me a LeBron rider, but none of this compares to LeBron hating. Do I read LeBron's twitter? Do I scan practice, pre- and post-game interviews to find quotes about him? Or do I do that about Kobe for that matter, do I try to find some quote of his to start a thread about? No, because I know damn well that no matter how "dumb" LeBron is in the stuff he says, or how "intelligent" Kobe is, or how much of a **** MJ is to Chamillionaire and in his HOF speech, it won't change how good he is on the court. And really, the only reason you're doing this is because you're insecure and you somehow hope that pointing out something stupid LeBron tweeted will somehow help you in an argument about who's the better basketball player, which it won't. You haters better worry about the intelligence of someone who may actually affect your lives, like Sarah Palin instead of a basketball player's. I've seen you homerize Kobe in plenty of threads where the Kobe-LeBron discussion was brought up, before I even replied in that thread. Don't even try to convince me that you aren't a Kobe homer.

And about scapgoating Gasol.. That's the whole problem. Somehow, blaming Kobe never is a part of the "heat of the moment". Other scapegoats are always looked for first.. Unless Kobe plays like complete garbage and you have NO excuse whatsoever.. And even then you sometimes try to put a positive spin by saying something like "At least he's the only trying to make something happen"... Or blame his poor performance on some dislocated finger, an on-off injury which mysteriously doesn't bother him on the nights when he's shooting well.

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@ "But nobody with half a brain cares about a regular season "big" game." Spoken like a true two straight Christmas day games loser. One of the best examples of criteria customization on the part of Kobe extremists. Back when Shaq was up 4-3 in rings won, regular season performances was all that mattered to you. And one particular regular season game against the Raptors was used as propaganda to make all kinds of claims about Kobe, that he is better than MJ, that he is GOAT, etc. But after the Gasol trade when the Lakers started winning, it's amazing how all of a sudden regular season performances didn't matter. The same when it comes to your treatment of a discussion about stats. LeBron has better stats than Kobe, but you try to skip past this by claiming that stats don't tell the whole story, or that stats don't matter at all. Oh yeah. Stats don't matter all right.. Except on a night where there is "81" in the "pts" section next to "Bryant, Kobe" on a box score. Then you better believe regular season game stats matter.
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Kobe Bryant

1021 Games Played

676 Games Won

Kobe Bryant's Regular Season Win Percentage = .662 

Lakers Win Percentage Without Kobe Bryant = .604 (95 games) 

Difference = .058




LeBron James

548 Games Played

339 Games Won

LeBron James' Win Percentage = .618

Cavs win percentage without LeBron James = .384 (26 Games) 

Difference = .234
 
Kobe Bryant

1021 Games Played

676 Games Won

Kobe Bryant's Regular Season Win Percentage = .662 

Lakers Win Percentage Without Kobe Bryant = .604 (95 games) 

Difference = .058




LeBron James

548 Games Played

339 Games Won

LeBron James' Win Percentage = .618

Cavs win percentage without LeBron James = .384 (26 Games) 

Difference = .234
 
Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Be in the same ball park? You're treating my mentioning of LeBron winning rings with Shaq as if I mentioned some completely random player. And you want to talk about ball parks? That's not the same ball park. That's not even the same league. Hell, it's not even the same sport. Therefore, you best believe I'm bringing up old Bill Wennington. LeBron is seen by most analysts as the best, or at worst as one of the very best players in the league for some time now. But that doesn't matter to you. In the end, what matters is that he didn't win (we don't even have to discuss the supporting casts he didn't win with anymore), therefore mentioning that this non-winner would win 5-6 rings with Shaq is ridiculous, right? So you best believe I'm going to flip it: Everyone knows that Bill Wennington was a bad player, but hey he has 3 rings on his fingers. That's what matters. You damn right comparing Bill Wennington to LeBron is stupid. That's the whole damn point. Pointing out the stupidity. So you pretty much agree: Saying that someone is better because he has rings is stupid. And I will continue to bring up this "stupid" example to point out the stupidity of someone saying that rings are the sole factor that a certain player is better than a certain other player.  Ok, then I'll play your same stupid game.  Kobe woulda won at least 3 titles with the Cavs.  I mean, since we don't have to prove any damn thing, why not go with that?  You keep bringing up Bill Wennington, my point was simple, when you compare two elite guys and you get down to splitting hairs, which we were doing (or so I thought) then you HAVE to bring up winning or not winning.  I get that that is a sore subject for you, I get that the Cavs are not a model franchise but you see buddy, just as you go insane on Laker/Kobe fans for the ridiculous claims they make, the same exact thing can be said about Bron/Cavs supporters while they boatraced the NBA regular season.  All those guys were RAMPANT across the nation the last two years.  And when it comes down to it, the fact is one has 5, the other has 0.  You can make up all the different reasons you want, some valid, some pointless, some might be close, whatever one has won and climbed the mountain, the other has not.  That is what I used when I said you can't just switch Kobe and Bron like it's nothing, and the Lakers would have won this that or the other.  Both guys are elite, Bill Wennington is not.  Nobody in here has said even one time Horry > MJ or anything close, we're talking about two guys who carry their teams, one has won, the other has not.  For all the different reasons there are. 



And we don't even have to go to examples that are as extreme as Bill Wennington. Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker and Paul Pierce are all Finals MVPs. It can be said that they led their teams to a championship. Are these three players better than LeBron James, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone?  Addressed above.  Nobody said anything close to TP > Malone.  That's your extreme angle, nobody elses. 

The least you can do is try to compare the situations LeBron and Kobe were in when they entered the league as objectively as you can, and I know that this is very hard for you. One was playing with a center that was about to become like a kid in a candy store with the lack of centers the late 90s and early 00s would bring, while the other one was stuck on a franchise whose best result ever was one or two eastern conference finals appearances and who won 17 games the season before LeBron's arrival, and are about to win around 17 games again this season as soon as LeBron left.  See, that's the thing we don't have a luxury of.  If Kobe would have been kept by the Hornets, then maybe we would have a better idea of the two players.  But that isn't what happened.  Maybe if Kobe is given the keys at 18 and told to do whatever he wanted, who knows what would have happened.  He could be better, he could be worse, he could be in jail, he could have retired already, he could be TMac never makin it out the first round, he could have 10 titles, THERE'S NO WAY TO KNOW.  I know this.  He was placed on a team in 04 that was utter garbage.  And in 4 years, they were in the finals.  That's fairly close to getting drafted on a crap team and carrying them.  Like I said already, Bron certainly could have done major work had he been drafted to LA with Shaq.  I said they coulda won 1, 2, maybe even 3.  Again, nobody knows, but you said clearly 6 "Imaginary rings"  > 4 (now 5) real ones.  One of the dumbest claims I have ever seen.  What's funny to me is here I am arguing all this crap, and did you know that back in 2000 I was just happy the Lakers got the 1? 
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  I remember thinking, there, Shaq and Kobe are off the hook, now they can just play out there careers, everything else is house money.  Then they won again, and then again, then it was over, then everyone tried to take those 3 and put them all on Shaq, then Kobe and Phil and Fish won again and I said, whew, now that's over, Kobe can just finish out his career, nobody can say nothing, then they won again.......I'M UP TO FIVE RINGS NOW, and still people like you discredit every single one of them like he's (let's see, one of your comparisons..........) Corey Brewer or something.  Just a SG in the NBA, nothing more. 
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  The Cavs are not the Lakers, everybody knows that, everybody except for Cavs fans and Lebron fans that claimed he would own the world after every move they made.  I been at this for years, I said for 3 years straight, the Cavs weren't contenders.  I never wavered either.  So you can claim all the fools that said they had the best supporting cast, that ain't on my record.  No no no.  I was upfront, Cavs won't win @#$%  and I was right. 



And you keep calling me a LeBron rider, but none of this compares to LeBron hating. Do I read LeBron's twitter? Do I scan practice, pre- and post-game interviews to find quotes about him? Or do I do that about Kobe for that matter, do I try to find some quote of his to start a thread about? No, because I know damn well that no matter how "dumb" LeBron is in the stuff he says, or how "intelligent" Kobe is, or how much of a **** MJ is to Chamillionaire and in his HOF speech, it won't change how good he is on the court. And really, the only reason you're doing this is because you're insecure and you somehow hope that pointing out something stupid LeBron tweeted will somehow help you in an argument about who's the better basketball player, which it won't. You haters better worry about the intelligence of someone who may actually affect your lives, like Sarah Palin instead of a basketball player's. I've seen you homerize Kobe in plenty of threads where the Kobe-LeBron discussion was brought up, before I even replied in that thread. Don't even try to convince me that you aren't a Kobe homer.  I don't read Bron's twitter either.  I don't scan interviews.  What I do is frequent the NBA thread on a daily basis on NT. And I occasionally see stuff that he says, or does that is lame.  And I talk about them.  Put a lame quote out there by Baron Davis, and I'll laugh and make fun of that too.  And I have never said you start threads about anybody, I know you don't, you should notice that I don't start a lot of threads about either of them either.  If I see something interesting or stupid, or whatever, I'll go in and comment (much like this thread) and if someone starts up a convo, I'll go with it.  Call out Dan Marino and I'll be there too. 
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  Call out Lamar Odom, whoever you want, if its my team and I have an opinion on it, I'll give it.  I already said that.  I don't care if that gets me the Kobe homer label, I've watched close to 1,000 games he's played in, I'm pretty well versed.  Like I said, if people are in there talkin nothin, I leave, if they talk stupid, I speak up.  Not hard to figure out. 

And about scapgoating Gasol.. That's the whole problem. Somehow, blaming Kobe never is a part of the "heat of the moment". Other scapegoats are always looked for first.. Unless Kobe plays like complete garbage and you have NO excuse whatsoever.. And even then you sometimes try to put a positive spin by saying something like "At least he's the only trying to make something happen"... Or blame his poor performance on some dislocated finger, an on-off injury which mysteriously doesn't bother him on the nights when he's shooting well.  I don't think you read the Laker thread enough, plenty of people get pissed at Kobe, but sure there are some that claim at least he's trying etc etc, I do the same during a given game if there's merit, he goes harder in those typical dead Laker games then most others.  You tellin me you never seen Lamar sleepwalk?  Or Bynum?  Or Pau?  Kobe and Fish give their best every game, but Fish isn't the same talent level obviously.  For that, they get alot of credit (from me) even though most Laker fans hate Fisher.  The real Laker fans, that get it, don't mind Fish, we know where he'll be when it matters.  And you will take note right now, I have yet to bring up his injuries at all in this thread.  (other then him being out in 04)  You want to discredit a guy playing with different injuries, that's fine by me, I don't care.  They get mentioned when he's being talked about, I am aware of that.  If you want to shut that part down, I don't mind. 

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@ "But nobody with half a brain cares about a regular season "big" game." Spoken like a true two straight Christmas day games loser. One of the best examples of criteria customization on the part of Kobe extremists. Back when Shaq was up 4-3 in rings won, regular season performances was all that mattered to you. And one particular regular season game against the Raptors was used as propaganda to make all kinds of claims about Kobe, that he is better than MJ, that he is GOAT, etc. But after the Gasol trade when the Lakers started winning, it's amazing how all of a sudden regular season performances didn't matter. The same when it comes to your treatment of a discussion about stats. LeBron has better stats than Kobe, but you try to skip past this by claiming that stats don't tell the whole story, or that stats don't matter at all. Oh yeah. Stats don't matter all right.. Except on a night where there is "81" in the "pts" section next to "Bryant, Kobe" on a box score. Then you better believe regular season game stats matter.
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  Laugh all you want, trust me, it's been my stance for YEARS.  Ask any NBA fan that comes in here and has had any sort of discussion with me.  Ask any of them.  Go read the NBA thread the last 3 years, go read the Laker thread, you will see me with dozens of quotes of the regular season doesn't matter.  I don't care if you have "other" Laker fans you want to use as an example, I'm not them, they don't speak for me.  You are right, we lost on Christmas last year, badly..........that worked out how for the Cavs, and more importantly, the Lakers? 
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  Yeah, that's right, worked out great for us, so why the hell do you think the regular season matters again?  And so you know, we won the Christmas before that.  So that's two years, 1-1 on Christmas, won a title each year, so tell me the effect of those "big" regular seasons games on us.  There is no effect, it's a regular season game.  The Cavs stomped us, the Heat stomped us.  Kinda hard to get up for a game in December when you really want to play games in June.  But yeah, those games sure did matter to Bron.  He had points to prove. 
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  I barely have said 5 words on 81.  I could care less.  The 62 actually was cooler to me since he outscored a whole team, but those were teams going nowhere.  You go ahead and think those games mean a lot to me, fine by me, but as I said, check my numerous posts saying the regular season don't matter.  There's a lot of them.  If you mean in terms of overall career wise, numbers, categories, yeah that stuff matters at the end of a career, but in terms of during a specific season, do I want to win on Christmas, or do I want to win in June, hmmmmmmm geeeeee, lemmmmmme think........yeah.  All the regular season stuff is to look back at what guys have done for thier careers.  Big picture type stuff, not game by game by game.  That stuff don't matter regardless of what you try to say for me. 
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Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Be in the same ball park? You're treating my mentioning of LeBron winning rings with Shaq as if I mentioned some completely random player. And you want to talk about ball parks? That's not the same ball park. That's not even the same league. Hell, it's not even the same sport. Therefore, you best believe I'm bringing up old Bill Wennington. LeBron is seen by most analysts as the best, or at worst as one of the very best players in the league for some time now. But that doesn't matter to you. In the end, what matters is that he didn't win (we don't even have to discuss the supporting casts he didn't win with anymore), therefore mentioning that this non-winner would win 5-6 rings with Shaq is ridiculous, right? So you best believe I'm going to flip it: Everyone knows that Bill Wennington was a bad player, but hey he has 3 rings on his fingers. That's what matters. You damn right comparing Bill Wennington to LeBron is stupid. That's the whole damn point. Pointing out the stupidity. So you pretty much agree: Saying that someone is better because he has rings is stupid. And I will continue to bring up this "stupid" example to point out the stupidity of someone saying that rings are the sole factor that a certain player is better than a certain other player.  Ok, then I'll play your same stupid game.  Kobe woulda won at least 3 titles with the Cavs.  I mean, since we don't have to prove any damn thing, why not go with that?  You keep bringing up Bill Wennington, my point was simple, when you compare two elite guys and you get down to splitting hairs, which we were doing (or so I thought) then you HAVE to bring up winning or not winning.  I get that that is a sore subject for you, I get that the Cavs are not a model franchise but you see buddy, just as you go insane on Laker/Kobe fans for the ridiculous claims they make, the same exact thing can be said about Bron/Cavs supporters while they boatraced the NBA regular season.  All those guys were RAMPANT across the nation the last two years.  And when it comes down to it, the fact is one has 5, the other has 0.  You can make up all the different reasons you want, some valid, some pointless, some might be close, whatever one has won and climbed the mountain, the other has not.  That is what I used when I said you can't just switch Kobe and Bron like it's nothing, and the Lakers would have won this that or the other.  Both guys are elite, Bill Wennington is not.  Nobody in here has said even one time Horry > MJ or anything close, we're talking about two guys who carry their teams, one has won, the other has not.  For all the different reasons there are. 



And we don't even have to go to examples that are as extreme as Bill Wennington. Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker and Paul Pierce are all Finals MVPs. It can be said that they led their teams to a championship. Are these three players better than LeBron James, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone?  Addressed above.  Nobody said anything close to TP > Malone.  That's your extreme angle, nobody elses. 

The least you can do is try to compare the situations LeBron and Kobe were in when they entered the league as objectively as you can, and I know that this is very hard for you. One was playing with a center that was about to become like a kid in a candy store with the lack of centers the late 90s and early 00s would bring, while the other one was stuck on a franchise whose best result ever was one or two eastern conference finals appearances and who won 17 games the season before LeBron's arrival, and are about to win around 17 games again this season as soon as LeBron left.  See, that's the thing we don't have a luxury of.  If Kobe would have been kept by the Hornets, then maybe we would have a better idea of the two players.  But that isn't what happened.  Maybe if Kobe is given the keys at 18 and told to do whatever he wanted, who knows what would have happened.  He could be better, he could be worse, he could be in jail, he could have retired already, he could be TMac never makin it out the first round, he could have 10 titles, THERE'S NO WAY TO KNOW.  I know this.  He was placed on a team in 04 that was utter garbage.  And in 4 years, they were in the finals.  That's fairly close to getting drafted on a crap team and carrying them.  Like I said already, Bron certainly could have done major work had he been drafted to LA with Shaq.  I said they coulda won 1, 2, maybe even 3.  Again, nobody knows, but you said clearly 6 "Imaginary rings"  > 4 (now 5) real ones.  One of the dumbest claims I have ever seen.  What's funny to me is here I am arguing all this crap, and did you know that back in 2000 I was just happy the Lakers got the 1? 
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  I remember thinking, there, Shaq and Kobe are off the hook, now they can just play out there careers, everything else is house money.  Then they won again, and then again, then it was over, then everyone tried to take those 3 and put them all on Shaq, then Kobe and Phil and Fish won again and I said, whew, now that's over, Kobe can just finish out his career, nobody can say nothing, then they won again.......I'M UP TO FIVE RINGS NOW, and still people like you discredit every single one of them like he's (let's see, one of your comparisons..........) Corey Brewer or something.  Just a SG in the NBA, nothing more. 
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  The Cavs are not the Lakers, everybody knows that, everybody except for Cavs fans and Lebron fans that claimed he would own the world after every move they made.  I been at this for years, I said for 3 years straight, the Cavs weren't contenders.  I never wavered either.  So you can claim all the fools that said they had the best supporting cast, that ain't on my record.  No no no.  I was upfront, Cavs won't win @#$%  and I was right. 



And you keep calling me a LeBron rider, but none of this compares to LeBron hating. Do I read LeBron's twitter? Do I scan practice, pre- and post-game interviews to find quotes about him? Or do I do that about Kobe for that matter, do I try to find some quote of his to start a thread about? No, because I know damn well that no matter how "dumb" LeBron is in the stuff he says, or how "intelligent" Kobe is, or how much of a **** MJ is to Chamillionaire and in his HOF speech, it won't change how good he is on the court. And really, the only reason you're doing this is because you're insecure and you somehow hope that pointing out something stupid LeBron tweeted will somehow help you in an argument about who's the better basketball player, which it won't. You haters better worry about the intelligence of someone who may actually affect your lives, like Sarah Palin instead of a basketball player's. I've seen you homerize Kobe in plenty of threads where the Kobe-LeBron discussion was brought up, before I even replied in that thread. Don't even try to convince me that you aren't a Kobe homer.  I don't read Bron's twitter either.  I don't scan interviews.  What I do is frequent the NBA thread on a daily basis on NT. And I occasionally see stuff that he says, or does that is lame.  And I talk about them.  Put a lame quote out there by Baron Davis, and I'll laugh and make fun of that too.  And I have never said you start threads about anybody, I know you don't, you should notice that I don't start a lot of threads about either of them either.  If I see something interesting or stupid, or whatever, I'll go in and comment (much like this thread) and if someone starts up a convo, I'll go with it.  Call out Dan Marino and I'll be there too. 
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  Call out Lamar Odom, whoever you want, if its my team and I have an opinion on it, I'll give it.  I already said that.  I don't care if that gets me the Kobe homer label, I've watched close to 1,000 games he's played in, I'm pretty well versed.  Like I said, if people are in there talkin nothin, I leave, if they talk stupid, I speak up.  Not hard to figure out. 

And about scapgoating Gasol.. That's the whole problem. Somehow, blaming Kobe never is a part of the "heat of the moment". Other scapegoats are always looked for first.. Unless Kobe plays like complete garbage and you have NO excuse whatsoever.. And even then you sometimes try to put a positive spin by saying something like "At least he's the only trying to make something happen"... Or blame his poor performance on some dislocated finger, an on-off injury which mysteriously doesn't bother him on the nights when he's shooting well.  I don't think you read the Laker thread enough, plenty of people get pissed at Kobe, but sure there are some that claim at least he's trying etc etc, I do the same during a given game if there's merit, he goes harder in those typical dead Laker games then most others.  You tellin me you never seen Lamar sleepwalk?  Or Bynum?  Or Pau?  Kobe and Fish give their best every game, but Fish isn't the same talent level obviously.  For that, they get alot of credit (from me) even though most Laker fans hate Fisher.  The real Laker fans, that get it, don't mind Fish, we know where he'll be when it matters.  And you will take note right now, I have yet to bring up his injuries at all in this thread.  (other then him being out in 04)  You want to discredit a guy playing with different injuries, that's fine by me, I don't care.  They get mentioned when he's being talked about, I am aware of that.  If you want to shut that part down, I don't mind. 

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@ "But nobody with half a brain cares about a regular season "big" game." Spoken like a true two straight Christmas day games loser. One of the best examples of criteria customization on the part of Kobe extremists. Back when Shaq was up 4-3 in rings won, regular season performances was all that mattered to you. And one particular regular season game against the Raptors was used as propaganda to make all kinds of claims about Kobe, that he is better than MJ, that he is GOAT, etc. But after the Gasol trade when the Lakers started winning, it's amazing how all of a sudden regular season performances didn't matter. The same when it comes to your treatment of a discussion about stats. LeBron has better stats than Kobe, but you try to skip past this by claiming that stats don't tell the whole story, or that stats don't matter at all. Oh yeah. Stats don't matter all right.. Except on a night where there is "81" in the "pts" section next to "Bryant, Kobe" on a box score. Then you better believe regular season game stats matter.
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  Laugh all you want, trust me, it's been my stance for YEARS.  Ask any NBA fan that comes in here and has had any sort of discussion with me.  Ask any of them.  Go read the NBA thread the last 3 years, go read the Laker thread, you will see me with dozens of quotes of the regular season doesn't matter.  I don't care if you have "other" Laker fans you want to use as an example, I'm not them, they don't speak for me.  You are right, we lost on Christmas last year, badly..........that worked out how for the Cavs, and more importantly, the Lakers? 
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  Yeah, that's right, worked out great for us, so why the hell do you think the regular season matters again?  And so you know, we won the Christmas before that.  So that's two years, 1-1 on Christmas, won a title each year, so tell me the effect of those "big" regular seasons games on us.  There is no effect, it's a regular season game.  The Cavs stomped us, the Heat stomped us.  Kinda hard to get up for a game in December when you really want to play games in June.  But yeah, those games sure did matter to Bron.  He had points to prove. 
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  I barely have said 5 words on 81.  I could care less.  The 62 actually was cooler to me since he outscored a whole team, but those were teams going nowhere.  You go ahead and think those games mean a lot to me, fine by me, but as I said, check my numerous posts saying the regular season don't matter.  There's a lot of them.  If you mean in terms of overall career wise, numbers, categories, yeah that stuff matters at the end of a career, but in terms of during a specific season, do I want to win on Christmas, or do I want to win in June, hmmmmmmm geeeeee, lemmmmmme think........yeah.  All the regular season stuff is to look back at what guys have done for thier careers.  Big picture type stuff, not game by game by game.  That stuff don't matter regardless of what you try to say for me. 
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Cats have been putting their hearts into these final papers the past two pages. Too much foolishness to read.
 
Cats have been putting their hearts into these final papers the past two pages. Too much foolishness to read.
 
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