Are there any Native American NTers? Vol. How do you feel about "Indian" sport logos?

[jchambers]

While we're at it...



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...anybody have a problem with these?

Comes from the same place. Irish people were horribly discriminated against in the early days of this country. The Irish people were also enslaved for many years.White skinned people in today's society aren't allowed to be upset about discrimination or racism against them.

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[scarsorscabs]

I take back what I said about the Washington logo being an embarrassment, I really don't think that anything to do with native american culture, or any culture for that matter, should be automatically off limits simply because the use itself could be, or is deemed offensive. 

But the name "********" and the logo quoted above? It's embarrassing for me personally to support leagues that condone the use. 

What I don't understand is what could possibly be deemed "dope" about the Cleveland Indians logo? It's a complete mockery. 

Rumor has it the next expansion franchise just put in a bid as the "Darkies"

Early renderings of the logo detailed below

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And we'd just let that cook right?

oh ya let cook ite....

da indians is exactly what that is..a cartoon rendering of a indian.

bet if a white man created da soso def logo da race card would've been activated with da QUICKNESS.

You've talked about the N word being used in rap as a comparison and now the So So Def logo IF it was created by a white man. Your ignorance is off the charts, somehow your brain allows you to equate people other than that group itself using offensive names and logos to a group of people using words and images that are their own. It's amazing.

 

[ninjahood]

So its not racist when their own peers use it...ite uncle rukus

 

[iluvjordanxi]

Native American were here first and they were called Indians. Since when did the Indians became Native Americans? Give them back their name. Took a Indian studies class and Indians are offended when they're called native americans.

 

[green rhino123]

Native American were here first and they were called Indians. Since when did the Indians became Native Americans? Give them back their name. Took a Indian studies class and Indians are offended when they're called native americans.

"Native Americans (referring to Indians) were here first..." - that's just a rumor, & disproving it would mean yanking any perks received by the US government & that wouldn't be politically correct.


I never took a special class or anything, but didn't the terms "Indians" come about because European explorers may have originally thought that
they sailed farther than they did...all the way to India - thus calling the people they saw in the Americas "Indians." Or is that wrong?


Saying you took a class on Indian studies and they are offended sounds like the same argument as "i like black people, i have a black friend!"

 

[shoelyesses]

Comes from the same place. Irish people were horribly discriminated against in the early days of this country. The Irish people were also enslaved for many years.White skinned people in today's society aren't allowed to be upset about discrimination or racism against them.

racism: a belief or doctrine, usually through policies or a system of government, in which a majority of a human race discriminates. practice superiority, and rules over another human race.

So since we have the proper definition of racism...um how do your examples even make since. If whites are the minorities, who the hell are majorities? And who is ruling over them? what government, laws, practices and policies are prohibiting whites from moving forward? How is/has negative depictions and stereotypes denied and held whites back? If they losing...who the hell is winning?

Yea throughout history some whites have been ridiculed, mocked, and made fun of. But to say that they have been a victim of racism is the craziest thing ive heard outside of this "race card"....

 

[jchambers]

Comes from the same place. Irish people were horribly discriminated against in the early days of this country. The Irish people were also enslaved for many years.White skinned people in today's society aren't allowed to be upset about discrimination or racism against them.

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racism: a belief or doctrine, usually through policies or a system of government, in which a majority of a human race discriminates. practice superiority, and rules over another human race.

So since we have the proper definition of racism...um how do your examples even make since. If whites are the minorities, who the hell are majorities? And who is ruling over them? what government, laws, practices and policies are prohibiting whites from moving forward? How is/has negative depictions and stereotypes denied and held whites back? If they losing...who the hell is winning?

Yea throughout history some whites have been ridiculed, mocked, and made fun of. But to say that they have been a victim of racism is the craziest thing ive heard outside of this "race card"....

I don't know where your definition is from, but Merriam Webster defines racism as:

rac·ism
noun \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Definition of RACISM
1
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2
: racial prejudice or discrimination
— rac·ist noun or adjective

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

Surely you aren't implying that only majorities can be racist? Irish people were certainly victims of racism in the early years of this country, as I stated before. They were also enslaved, as were many other races.Thanks for proving my point though, Shoelyssesses. You have proven that you can count to potato.

 

[green rhino123]

^
ya, and dude conveniently left out that you originally stated both "discrimination or racism."

like some self-serving logic can make it so discrimination and/or racism doesn't come in various forms victimizing various peoples

 

[jchambers]

^
ya, and dude conveniently left out that you originally stated both "discrimination or racism."

like some self-serving logic can make it so discrimination and/or racism doesn't come in various forms victimizing various peoples

All he knows is self serving logic. He is continuously ignoring my statements and attempting Straw Man Arguments. He is against discrimination of people of African descent, but doesn't show the same favor to any other race or ethnicity. His view is the problem I was referring to when I mentioned that there is a double standard commonly at play in these issues. I also think that he made up that definition of racism or got it from some poorly formatted Geocities/Angelfire Black Power website or pamphlet.

 

[shoelyesses]

I don't know where your definition is from, but Merriam Webster defines racism as:

rac·ism
noun \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Definition of RACISM
1
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2
: racial prejudice or discrimination
— rac·ist noun or adjective

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

Surely you aren't implying that only majorities can be racist? Irish people were certainly victims of racism in the early years of this country, as I stated before. They were also enslaved, as were many other races.Thanks for proving my point though, Shoelyssesses. You have proven that you can count to potato.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

so urs say one definition mines says another. and im going with mines seeing it is more true to real life. your definition sounds almost as if its saying racism is simply one race disliking another. especially with the racial/prejudice aspect.... seeing that they are not the same. cause you can be prejudice without being racist. So that definition is all of wrong. Even under your definition it doesnt make sense. Because irishmen are Caucasians. I hope you seriously dont think irishmen is some sort of race. So how did whites hold whites back? What system is in place to deny whites?

Again even by your definition it clearly states one race preference over another... but both races are white, so....um not making much sense there buddy. I heard it all now. whites have been held back, denied, and mistreated by a system, a large group of ppl. Whats next war on drugs was for whites.....lol, the great long lasting detrimental triatlantic white slave trade, the need for civil right movements for the blantant racism and oppression of whites...

ppl just take anytime some one is prejudice, stereotypes someone, or dislike them because of race or well hell anything and scream racism. I hear ppl always throwing this race card bs whatever it is out, and this is definetely a prime example of it.

 

[shoelyesses]

All he knows is self serving logic. He is continuously ignoring my statements and attempting Straw Man Arguments. He is against discrimination of people of African descent, but doesn't show the same favor to any other race or ethnicity. His view is the problem I was referring to when I mentioned that there is a double standard commonly at play in these issues. I also think that he made up that definition of racism or got it from some poorly formatted Geocities/Angelfire Black Power website or pamphlet.

im against all discrimination....but if you wont speak for yourself, or show some concern...why should i? if native americans are so enraged and hurt about it...then do something. This kinda reminds me of the civil rights movement.... everybody of all races probably felt the way blacks did.... but where were they when it came to actually doing something and speaking out? Surely rosa parks wasnt the only person who felt anyone should be able to sit anywhere on the bus. But what did the spanish man do...the asian man do so and so forth...dislike it and pretty much left it as that. Then when her and others like her stood forth... they all wanna come in and reap the benefits.

I am all for and would support them in their efforts for changing teams themes and names. Keywordd support and efforts. I cant support an effort that isnt attempted. I guess your saying other races, hell maybe black ppl should get offended for them and suggest the displeasure of the teams/themes for native americans.

 

[jchambers]

I don't know where your definition is from, but Merriam Webster defines racism as:


rac·ism

noun \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\

Definition of RACISM

1

: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2

: racial prejudice or discrimination

— rac·ist noun or adjective

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism


Surely you aren't implying that only majorities can be racist? Irish people were certainly victims of racism in the early years of this country, as I stated before. They were also enslaved, as were many other races.Thanks for proving my point though, Shoelyssesses. You have proven that you can count to potato.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

so urs say one definition mines says another. and im going with mines seeing it is more true to real life. your definition sounds almost as if its saying racism is simply one race disliking another. especially with the racial/prejudice aspect.... seeing that they are not the same. cause you can be prejudice without being racist. So that definition is all of wrong. Even under your definition it doesnt make sense. Because irishmen are Caucasians. I hope you seriously dont think irishmen is some sort of race. So how did whites hold whites back? What system is in place to deny whites?

Again even by your definition it clearly states one race preference over another... but both races are white, so....um not making much sense there buddy. I heard it all now. whites have been held back, denied, and mistreated by a system, a large group of ppl. Whats next war on drugs was for whites.....lol, the great long lasting detrimental triatlantic white slave trade, the need for civil right movements for the blantant racism and oppression of whites...

ppl just take anytime some one is prejudice, stereotypes someone, or dislike them because of race or well hell anything and scream racism. I hear ppl always throwing this race card bs whatever it is out, and this is definetely a prime example of it.

Yawn. More Straw Man arguments that I won't even bother addressing. "Whites" did oppress other "whites" who were from different cultures, that is a fact. You need to read some American History.You have a very narrow minded view of the world. Your definition of racism is people of European descent oppressing people of African descent. I think that anyone who has been following this thread can see through your attempted distractions, and recognize your true belief. It can be argued that the Irish are a race, actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

You might want to read this also:

http://www.pitt.edu/~hirtle/uujec/white.html

 

[jchambers]

All he knows is self serving logic. He is continuously ignoring my statements and attempting Straw Man Arguments. He is against discrimination of people of African descent, but doesn't show the same favor to any other race or ethnicity. His view is the problem I was referring to when I mentioned that there is a double standard commonly at play in these issues. I also think that he made up that definition of racism or got it from some poorly formatted Geocities/Angelfire Black Power website or pamphlet.

im against all discrimination....but if you wont speak for yourself, or show some concern...why should i? if native americans are so enraged and hurt about it...then do something. This kinda reminds me of the civil rights movement.... everybody of all races probably felt the way blacks did.... but where were they when it came to actually doing something and speaking out? Surely rosa parks wasnt the only person who felt anyone should be able to sit anywhere on the bus. But what did the spanish man do...the asian man do so and so forth...dislike it and pretty much left it as that. Then when her and others like her stood forth... they all wanna come in and reap the benefits.

I am all for and would support them in their efforts for changing teams themes and names. Keywordd support and efforts. I cant support an effort that isnt attempted. I guess your saying other races, hell maybe black ppl should get offended for them and suggest the displeasure of the teams/themes for native americans.

Are you saying that Asians and Latinos didn't deserve to not be discriminated against, because they didn't stand up like Rosa Parks did?


"They all wanna' come in and reap the benefits"

Did you seriously just write that? It is clearly evident now that you don't care about anyone but people of African descent.

I can only speak for myself. I find it offensive and racist. I am also 99.9% sure that if the tables were turned towards African Americans, people of all races would be in an uproar. I know that you would. Either they don't' know, don't show, or just don't care what goes on in the reservation.

 

[sir charles]

All he knows is self serving logic. He is continuously ignoring my statements and attempting Straw Man Arguments. He is against discrimination of people of African descent, but doesn't show the same favor to any other race or ethnicity. His view is the problem I was referring to when I mentioned that there is a double standard commonly at play in these issues. I also think that he made up that definition of racism or got it from some poorly formatted Geocities/Angelfire Black Power website or pamphlet.

im against all discrimination....but if you wont speak for yourself, or show some concern...why should i? if native americans are so enraged and hurt about it...then do something. This kinda reminds me of the civil rights movement.... everybody of all races probably felt the way blacks did.... but where were they when it came to actually doing something and speaking out? Surely rosa parks wasnt the only person who felt anyone should be able to sit anywhere on the bus. But what did the spanish man do...the asian man do so and so forth...dislike it and pretty much left it as that. Then when her and others like her stood forth... they all wanna come in and reap the benefits.

I am all for and would support them in their efforts for changing teams themes and names. Keywordd support and efforts. I cant support an effort that isnt attempted. I guess your saying other races, hell maybe black ppl should get offended for them and suggest the displeasure of the teams/themes for native americans.

Are you saying that Asians and Latinos didn't deserve to not be discriminated against, because they didn't stand up like Rosa Parks did?


"They all wanna' come in and reap the benefits"

Did you seriously just write that? It is clearly evident now that you don't care about anyone but people of African descent.

I can only speak for myself. I find it offensive and racist. I am also 99.9% sure that if the tables were turned towards African Americans, people of all races would be in an uproar. I know that you would. Either they don't' know, don't show, or just don't care what goes on in the reservation.

Well Asian americans had their own affairs during the 40's when they were forced into internment camps and then they spoke out against it, got the government to issue them a citizenship test, then most joined the military to fight in WW2. They created their own benefits.

Latino Americans have been in America longer the. Americans have

The African American civil rights movement was not the only movement for minorities getting equal treatment in the US you do know that correct shoelyesses?

 

[sumrndmdude]

 

[Nouss]

Deadass. Smh at the mess in here.

 

[AEA18]

The Celtics mascot and logo are offensive to Irish people?

 

[bkzkurse]

If team names were the dark skins, cottonpickers, slavetraders, pale skins, powderfaces, skinny eyes, dot-heads, turban-heads etc.

they would change it in a heartbeat - not cause of how offensive it is - (even though those names are, obviously) - but because of the severity and amount of backlash, protesting, lawsuits etc. that would stem from the name


The fact is that Native Americans haven't done that - perhaps due to their small sizes, lack of desire to take action etc. - This is why the names have not changed.

Action must be taken

 

[lobotomybeats]

What makes the Cleveland Indians thing even worse for Native Americans is that not only have they been reduced to a racist mascot and a term that isn't used anymore, but they are also attached to Cleveland.

 

[semf]

all these are some of da dopest logos in sports.

does everyone realize there are caricatures / stereotypes?

How would anyone feel if there were sport team logos with the following?

even referring to natives / native-americans as "Indians" is just ignorant.

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[pabstblueribbon]

What makes the Cleveland Indians thing even worse for Native Americans is that not only have they been reduced to a racist mascot and a term that isn't used anymore, but they are also attached to Cleveland.

 

[shoelyesses]

If team names were the dark skins, cottonpickers, slavetraders, pale skins, powderfaces, skinny eyes, dot-heads, turban-heads etc.

they would change it in a heartbeat - not cause of how offensive it is - (even though those names are, obviously) - but because of the severity and amount of backlash, protesting, lawsuits etc. that would stem from the name


The fact is that Native Americans haven't done that - perhaps due to their small sizes, lack of desire to take action etc. - This is why the names have not changed.

Action must be taken

exactly which is my point.....this can be said about anything....if a group of ppl at a job, are being underpayed, and overworked...what good would happen if all they did was mumble, and not speak out about it? Or if one person, just briefly mentioned it, nothing is gonna change.

 

[ninjahood]

^^^ if you cant see da OBVIOUS difference in international malice VS

representing a celebrated tone in da actual logos then da fact is lost on u.

 

[shoelyesses]

Are you saying that Asians and Latinos didn't deserve to not be discriminated against, because they didn't stand up like Rosa Parks did?

"They all wanna' come in and reap the benefits"

Did you seriously just write that? It is clearly evident now that you don't care about anyone but people of African descent.

I can only speak for myself. I find it offensive and racist. I am also 99.9% sure that if the tables were turned towards African Americans, people of all races would be in an uproar. I know that you would. Either they don't' know, don't show, or just don't care what goes on in the reservation.

never said that...what i said is why say complain gripe and do nothing.... reminds me matter of fact, of nt. A few years ago abercombie and fitch made a line of blantantly racist tshirts....towards koreans, asians etc... And someone posted a shirt on nt. Ppl was saying the same thing you said...oh you dont care, oh your racist...matter of fact method man and i think cameron and a few others were saying i was insensitive to it all. But end of the day...did not speak out against it, did nothing, and didnt advocate change...and hell probably eventually went out and start purchasing their clothing again.

And just like i said then ok no i dont care, if you dont. Sitting on nt, arguing with me, pming me, threats of banning me does what? And just like them, you so outrage uproar, offended...what are YOU DOING? Just like then all was done was these long well written, college term paper responses to me...with no actions behind it. I dont see your online petition or push for change. Where is the rally that you are apart of to advocate the change. You so call care give a damn so much...but when **** gets to grass, i can hear a rat pissin ob cotton. I swear you recline chair revolutionist kill me, couch crusaders.

As far as what other races would do im not to sure about all that...history and just the world in general wouldnt agree. But one thing for sure, if this were to happen to blacks...they sure as hell wouldnt be playing church mouse, quietly mumbling in the background...being complacent, and lacksidaisy about the situation and sitting back on some, if you dont stand up for me and fight my battles for me, then you racist. because i said it once and said it again...BLACKS WOULD ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING. That point seems to rainbow right over you guys head. To even compare how blacks in the past especially in terms of civil right movement etc.... where they literally, put their lives on the line and was willing to die for their cause, and standup against any and all.... to a group of ppl who are mildly upset, who at best speak out every 5 or 10 years is crazy talk.

Its clear you guys believe this foolishness of some minorities get treated better or taken more seriously then others....just cause. And if thats the case it damn sure isnt blacks. The reason changes/movements are effective for blacks...is guess what they actually get off their arses and do something. I like how you conviently dodge that point.

 

[sir charles]

As far as what other races would do im not to sure about all that...history and just the world in general wouldnt agree. But one thing for sure, if this were to happen to blacks...they sure as hell wouldnt be playing church mouse, quietly mumbling in the background...being complacent, and lacksidaisy about the situation and sitting back on some, if you dont stand up for me and fight my battles for me, then you racist. because i said it once and said it again...BLACKS WOULD ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING. That point seems to rainbow right over you guys head. To even compare how blacks in the past especially in terms of civil right movement etc.... where they literally, put their lives on the line and was willing to die for their cause, and standup against any and all.... to a group of ppl who are mildly upset, who at best speak out every 5 or 10 years is crazy talk.

Its clear you guys believe this foolishness of some minorities get treated better or taken more seriously then others....just cause. And if thats the case it damn sure isnt blacks. The reason changes/movements are effective for blacks...is guess what they actually get off their arses and do something. I like how you conviently dodge that point.

So Asian immigrants didn't fight for their civil rights after being forced into internment camps, being prejudiced against, and having their homes vandalized? Then after all that they went to fight in the war. That's putting their life on the line for their rights. Just one example.

The US already beat the Native American population down to nothing since arrival. In the 1800's they were all forced onto reservations. Many died on the way. They weren't really given the same chances that blacks were given by having a president against their containment and prejudice. The president just wanted them off the land. Dead or alive.

Native Americans make up 2% of the population. Two. While the African American population takes up about %15-20. That's a big difference they can't really be compared.

I don't give a damn about your gripe with JC, but all that crap you said was simply foolish. Saying that blacks are the only people to fight for something.