Bill O'Reilly...tell me you can do better than this... you can't be this stupid...

[copped]

Originally Posted by Dame Theory

Originally Posted by copped

LOL THIS GUY HAS BEEN ON NT ALL DAY WAITING FOR PEOPLE TO REPLY SO HE CAN TYPE OF PARAGRAPHS...


MAN OH MAN YOU ARE SO LAME.

I made money sitting at work educating fools like you. Miss me with that. Funny how you've managed to say that. Only someone checking for my posts would come to that conclusion. 

i made a typo and corrected it within 30 seconds...

my man already quoted me before i pressed edit...dude has his finger on the F5 button all day....

i feel bad for your life....

 

[copped]

Originally Posted by Dame Theory

Originally Posted by copped

LOL THIS GUY HAS BEEN ON NT ALL DAY WAITING FOR PEOPLE TO REPLY SO HE CAN TYPE OF PARAGRAPHS...


MAN OH MAN YOU ARE SO LAME.

I made money sitting at work educating fools like you. Miss me with that. Funny how you've managed to say that. Only someone checking for my posts would come to that conclusion. 

i made a typo and corrected it within 30 seconds...

my man already quoted me before i pressed edit...dude has his finger on the F5 button all day....

i feel bad for your life....

 

[mo matik]

You want me to give you the basis of my faith in a single post on a message board?

If it was that simple, people of faith wouldn't be a dying breed.

Learning about a belief system takes a lot of research and time.  For example, I began studying the Qur'an when I was 6.  I went to Sunday School for years as a kid.  I learned a lot.  Despite all that, I didn't become religious until much later.  And there is still a lot about Islam that I don't know.  In fact, the reason why I wasn't able to respond earlier is because I went to class.  A comparative religion course called "Jews, Christians, and Muslims."

Generally as a rule of thumb, it's a good idea not to criticize what you don't have a thorough understanding of.  And you apparently aren't willing to put in that time.

To put this in context, guys like Sam Harris and Hitchens have made basic mistakes in a lot of their writings on Islam.  Not just theological topics that are actually debatable, but even stuff like vocabulary, tenses, and specific uses of well known words.  Basic things.  Things I learned in Sunday School.

If you do decide to change your mind and actually pursue this, my suggestion is to start with Approaching the Qur'an by Michael Sells (U of Chi prof.)

PM me if you want to "acquire" a copy.

 

[mo matik]

You want me to give you the basis of my faith in a single post on a message board?

If it was that simple, people of faith wouldn't be a dying breed.

Learning about a belief system takes a lot of research and time.  For example, I began studying the Qur'an when I was 6.  I went to Sunday School for years as a kid.  I learned a lot.  Despite all that, I didn't become religious until much later.  And there is still a lot about Islam that I don't know.  In fact, the reason why I wasn't able to respond earlier is because I went to class.  A comparative religion course called "Jews, Christians, and Muslims."

Generally as a rule of thumb, it's a good idea not to criticize what you don't have a thorough understanding of.  And you apparently aren't willing to put in that time.

To put this in context, guys like Sam Harris and Hitchens have made basic mistakes in a lot of their writings on Islam.  Not just theological topics that are actually debatable, but even stuff like vocabulary, tenses, and specific uses of well known words.  Basic things.  Things I learned in Sunday School.

If you do decide to change your mind and actually pursue this, my suggestion is to start with Approaching the Qur'an by Michael Sells (U of Chi prof.)

PM me if you want to "acquire" a copy.

 

[toanotherlevel]

You sound like a fairly intelligent person; however, to state that religious and scientific ideas can't co-exist is a very poor way of thinking. Moreover, I don't understand where you get off saying what people deserve to defend. It's sad that as intelligent as you seem, that you don't have the ability to listen and understand other perspectives and views that are not yours. Instead, you make insults and threats to those who believe differently from you. Your way of thinking goes back to my original statement: as soon as we (the collective we) stop forcing our own beliefs on others, the better.

 

[toanotherlevel]

You sound like a fairly intelligent person; however, to state that religious and scientific ideas can't co-exist is a very poor way of thinking. Moreover, I don't understand where you get off saying what people deserve to defend. It's sad that as intelligent as you seem, that you don't have the ability to listen and understand other perspectives and views that are not yours. Instead, you make insults and threats to those who believe differently from you. Your way of thinking goes back to my original statement: as soon as we (the collective we) stop forcing our own beliefs on others, the better.

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by ToAnotherLevel

You sound like a fairly intelligent person; however, to state that religious and scientific ideas can't co-exist is a very poor way of thinking. Moreover, I don't understand where you get off saying what people deserve to defend. It's sad that as intelligent as you seem, that you don't have the ability to listen and understand other perspectives and views that are not yours. Instead, you make insults and threats to those who believe differently from you. Your way of thinking goes back to my original statement: as soon as we (the collective we) stop forcing our own beliefs on others, the better.

Lets be real here. I probably have done more research and understanding in my rejection of faith than most people that have them. Its not that I don't understand their perspectives. I've literally heard them all. I live in the US so I'm not sure where you are from, but you can't escape Christianity here, and other religions to a lesser extent. The influence is very real. I'm very aware of the other side which allows me to, unfortunately, most of the time to reject whatever they have to assert before they even prepare their statements. 

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by ToAnotherLevel

You sound like a fairly intelligent person; however, to state that religious and scientific ideas can't co-exist is a very poor way of thinking. Moreover, I don't understand where you get off saying what people deserve to defend. It's sad that as intelligent as you seem, that you don't have the ability to listen and understand other perspectives and views that are not yours. Instead, you make insults and threats to those who believe differently from you. Your way of thinking goes back to my original statement: as soon as we (the collective we) stop forcing our own beliefs on others, the better.

Lets be real here. I probably have done more research and understanding in my rejection of faith than most people that have them. Its not that I don't understand their perspectives. I've literally heard them all. I live in the US so I'm not sure where you are from, but you can't escape Christianity here, and other religions to a lesser extent. The influence is very real. I'm very aware of the other side which allows me to, unfortunately, most of the time to reject whatever they have to assert before they even prepare their statements. 

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

You want me to give you the basis of my faith in a single post on a message board?

If it was that simple, people of faith wouldn't be a dying breed.

Learning about a belief system takes a lot of research and time.  For example, I began studying the Qur'an when I was 6.  I went to Sunday School for years as a kid.  I learned a lot.  Despite all that, I didn't become religious until much later.  And there is still a lot about Islam that I don't know.  In fact, the reason why I wasn't able to respond earlier is because I went to class.  A comparative religion course called "Jews, Christians, and Muslims."

Generally as a rule of thumb, it's a good idea not to criticize what you don't have a thorough understanding of.  And you apparently aren't willing to put in that time.

To put this in context, guys like Sam Harris and Hitchens have made basic mistakes in a lot of their writings on Islam.  Not just theological topics that are actually debatable, but even stuff like vocabulary, tenses, and specific uses of well known words.  Basic things.  Things I learned in Sunday School.

If you do decide to change your mind and actually pursue this, my suggestion is to start with Approaching the Qur'an by Michael Sells (U of Chi prof.)

PM me if you want to "acquire" a copy.

Most of these guys you speak about have limited knowledge of islam because Christianity dominates much of the sphere they operate in, such as the US and UK and Australia...and I might add that if they happened to live in these muslim countries and speak the way they do... they might be dead already. That is a very real possibility.

I too have read much of islamic texts and have attempted to even learn the tenets of most of the religion. However most of it doesn't stand up to the test of real criticism. Much of it is just as much mythology as any other story and the fact that it claims to be the one true religion just because it says it is no different from any other major religion. It is just as convoluted and contradictory as the rest.

I asked for reasons for your faith. NOT because you grew up in it. That means you had no choice. You must admit that. 

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

You want me to give you the basis of my faith in a single post on a message board?

If it was that simple, people of faith wouldn't be a dying breed.

Learning about a belief system takes a lot of research and time.  For example, I began studying the Qur'an when I was 6.  I went to Sunday School for years as a kid.  I learned a lot.  Despite all that, I didn't become religious until much later.  And there is still a lot about Islam that I don't know.  In fact, the reason why I wasn't able to respond earlier is because I went to class.  A comparative religion course called "Jews, Christians, and Muslims."

Generally as a rule of thumb, it's a good idea not to criticize what you don't have a thorough understanding of.  And you apparently aren't willing to put in that time.

To put this in context, guys like Sam Harris and Hitchens have made basic mistakes in a lot of their writings on Islam.  Not just theological topics that are actually debatable, but even stuff like vocabulary, tenses, and specific uses of well known words.  Basic things.  Things I learned in Sunday School.

If you do decide to change your mind and actually pursue this, my suggestion is to start with Approaching the Qur'an by Michael Sells (U of Chi prof.)

PM me if you want to "acquire" a copy.

Most of these guys you speak about have limited knowledge of islam because Christianity dominates much of the sphere they operate in, such as the US and UK and Australia...and I might add that if they happened to live in these muslim countries and speak the way they do... they might be dead already. That is a very real possibility.

I too have read much of islamic texts and have attempted to even learn the tenets of most of the religion. However most of it doesn't stand up to the test of real criticism. Much of it is just as much mythology as any other story and the fact that it claims to be the one true religion just because it says it is no different from any other major religion. It is just as convoluted and contradictory as the rest.

I asked for reasons for your faith. NOT because you grew up in it. That means you had no choice. You must admit that. 

 

[mo matik]

Yes, their studies are specific to Christianity.  But then continue to write about Christianity if you aren't ready to face the challenges of a different field of study.  Any excuse is BS really, because there are plenty of Western scholars in colleges across the country that get these things right.

I can't say for certain that I would have become a Muslim without being born one. Of course.

But like I said, I didn't become religious until later. I was around 18-19 when I became serious about Islam.

These generalizations are exactly what I'm talking about though man. Which of the 'Muslim countries' are you referring to? There is a huge range in tolerance among "these Muslim countries."

Oh, and the idea that you could reduce Islam to "true because it's no different" proves my point in full.

 

[mo matik]

Yes, their studies are specific to Christianity.  But then continue to write about Christianity if you aren't ready to face the challenges of a different field of study.  Any excuse is BS really, because there are plenty of Western scholars in colleges across the country that get these things right.

I can't say for certain that I would have become a Muslim without being born one. Of course.

But like I said, I didn't become religious until later. I was around 18-19 when I became serious about Islam.

These generalizations are exactly what I'm talking about though man. Which of the 'Muslim countries' are you referring to? There is a huge range in tolerance among "these Muslim countries."

Oh, and the idea that you could reduce Islam to "true because it's no different" proves my point in full.

 

[whiterails]

Originally Posted by ToAnotherLevel

You sound like a fairly intelligent person; however, to state that religious and scientific ideas can't co-exist is a very poor way of thinking. Moreover, I don't understand where you get off saying what people deserve to defend. It's sad that as intelligent as you seem, that you don't have the ability to listen and understand other perspectives and views that are not yours. Instead, you make insults and threats to those who believe differently from you. Your way of thinking goes back to my original statement: as soon as we (the collective we) stop forcing our own beliefs on others, the better.

Do you have a problem with politicians denouncing the theory of evolution?
What about teachers not teaching evolution in schools, or actually going so far as to teaching creationism?

Do you have the same "live and let live" attitude with those cases?

 

[whiterails]

Originally Posted by ToAnotherLevel

You sound like a fairly intelligent person; however, to state that religious and scientific ideas can't co-exist is a very poor way of thinking. Moreover, I don't understand where you get off saying what people deserve to defend. It's sad that as intelligent as you seem, that you don't have the ability to listen and understand other perspectives and views that are not yours. Instead, you make insults and threats to those who believe differently from you. Your way of thinking goes back to my original statement: as soon as we (the collective we) stop forcing our own beliefs on others, the better.

Do you have a problem with politicians denouncing the theory of evolution?
What about teachers not teaching evolution in schools, or actually going so far as to teaching creationism?

Do you have the same "live and let live" attitude with those cases?

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Yes, their studies are specific to Christianity.  But then continue to write about Christianity if you aren't ready to face the challenges of a different field of study.  Any excuse is BS really, because there are plenty of Western scholars in colleges across the country that get these things right.

I can't say for certain that I would have become a Muslim without being born one. Of course.

But like I said, I didn't become religious until later. I was around 18-19 when I became serious about Islam.

These generalizations are exactly what I'm talking about though man. Which of the 'Muslim countries' are you referring to? There is a huge range in tolerance among "these Muslim countries."

Oh, and the idea that you could reduce Islam to "true because it's no different" proves my point in full.

Have you studied other religions? Have you studied mythology? Have you studied ancient cultures? Comparative religion course? anything?All of them have the SAME stories. The virtue that you claim you MIGHT not be a muslim in another country indicates how INTERESTING  it might be to study something you declare to be the absolute truth. I'm sure you think Islam is the way. Why islam? Can you answer this? Why did you chose islam, especially after you "became religious later?" 
And by muslim countries, before last week I would have said all except Egypt. We'll see if that remains true. I'm not just talking about the middle east too. I'm referring to Indonesia and other african countries and zones as well. The penalty for apostasy in those countries is prison if not death in most instances. Don't front like you didn't like this.

Compare the tenets of islam and the practice of it to any other religion and you'll find the same faulty arguments. Again, I have asked you to state why you believe or rather what you believe. For religions that have descended from the branch of abraham, its very interesting to see how much they seem to compete with one-another instead of support each other. Justify your existance in your beliefs. 

BTW, just because they're not AS versed in Islam doesn't mean they know nothing about it. Hitchens has shown himself to be quite adept in addressing Islam... plus, the penalty for speaking against islam automatically carries a much higher risk than most other religions.. YOU KNOW THIS TO BE TRUE. Where those writers suceed is in their criticism of all religions. The great thing about them is that they in fact DO address islam and I doubt you've read their works. I suggest you check out the BOOKS, not the lectures of these people:

Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Chris Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, Lawrence Krauss, Craig Venter, Michael Shermer, James Baldwin, Bertrand Russell, Anthony Pinn, Sikivu Hutchinson, Todd Stiefel, Bart Ehrman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, and John Loftus.

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Yes, their studies are specific to Christianity.  But then continue to write about Christianity if you aren't ready to face the challenges of a different field of study.  Any excuse is BS really, because there are plenty of Western scholars in colleges across the country that get these things right.

I can't say for certain that I would have become a Muslim without being born one. Of course.

But like I said, I didn't become religious until later. I was around 18-19 when I became serious about Islam.

These generalizations are exactly what I'm talking about though man. Which of the 'Muslim countries' are you referring to? There is a huge range in tolerance among "these Muslim countries."

Oh, and the idea that you could reduce Islam to "true because it's no different" proves my point in full.

Have you studied other religions? Have you studied mythology? Have you studied ancient cultures? Comparative religion course? anything?All of them have the SAME stories. The virtue that you claim you MIGHT not be a muslim in another country indicates how INTERESTING  it might be to study something you declare to be the absolute truth. I'm sure you think Islam is the way. Why islam? Can you answer this? Why did you chose islam, especially after you "became religious later?" 
And by muslim countries, before last week I would have said all except Egypt. We'll see if that remains true. I'm not just talking about the middle east too. I'm referring to Indonesia and other african countries and zones as well. The penalty for apostasy in those countries is prison if not death in most instances. Don't front like you didn't like this.

Compare the tenets of islam and the practice of it to any other religion and you'll find the same faulty arguments. Again, I have asked you to state why you believe or rather what you believe. For religions that have descended from the branch of abraham, its very interesting to see how much they seem to compete with one-another instead of support each other. Justify your existance in your beliefs. 

BTW, just because they're not AS versed in Islam doesn't mean they know nothing about it. Hitchens has shown himself to be quite adept in addressing Islam... plus, the penalty for speaking against islam automatically carries a much higher risk than most other religions.. YOU KNOW THIS TO BE TRUE. Where those writers suceed is in their criticism of all religions. The great thing about them is that they in fact DO address islam and I doubt you've read their works. I suggest you check out the BOOKS, not the lectures of these people:

Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Chris Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, Lawrence Krauss, Craig Venter, Michael Shermer, James Baldwin, Bertrand Russell, Anthony Pinn, Sikivu Hutchinson, Todd Stiefel, Bart Ehrman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, and John Loftus.

 

[mo matik]

I mean, in a way I chose all 3, because Muslims claim Islam has been around since the beginning of man, it just wasn't called Islam at the time.  Judaism was Islam, then Christianity became Islam, and then Islam became Islam. 

But I chose Islam, for one, it offers tons and tons of practical solutions to issues that plague us today.  Take, for example, abortion.

From the Qur'an God tells us that life is given to the fetus after 4 months of gestation.  There is also a detailed description of embryology.  So a lot of scholars believe that Abortion is legitimate up to this time, because the Shariah system works on a basis of choosing the lesser of 2 wrongs. 

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html

But I mean becoming a Muslim really changes your culture in a way.  Take for example, gambling.  In Islam, it's prohibited.

You must be thinking it's ridiculous to prohibit gambling.  And you have reasons x y and z.  But think about the values.  In Islam, by prohibiting gambling it's saying that, on a fundamental level, a man losing his entire savings is a far greater BAD in comparison to a man making some extra money.  That, on a societal level, we should be united enough to think that "it might be good for me to double or triple the money I have in my pocket, but for that to happen there will be people that suffer from addiction, and lose their savings and for that reason it's wrong."  It's really an amazing thing. 

People often approach religion with this idea that for a religion to be right it must be perfect.  But there is no such thing as a perfect system of society or a way of life.  Islam offers practical solutions to problems that, when understood in context of everything altogether, just click.

These kinda connections are made through reflection and research.  This is why I was emphasizing it earlier.

EDIT: My dad is agnostic.  I own and have read some of the works of Dawkins. Hitchens, and Russell.  I grew up listening to quotes by Russell from my pops.

It all brings me back to the first thing I wrote when I came in this thread and saw what was going on.  There are legitimate arguments on both sides.  And it's like that for a reason.

 

[mo matik]

I mean, in a way I chose all 3, because Muslims claim Islam has been around since the beginning of man, it just wasn't called Islam at the time.  Judaism was Islam, then Christianity became Islam, and then Islam became Islam. 

But I chose Islam, for one, it offers tons and tons of practical solutions to issues that plague us today.  Take, for example, abortion.

From the Qur'an God tells us that life is given to the fetus after 4 months of gestation.  There is also a detailed description of embryology.  So a lot of scholars believe that Abortion is legitimate up to this time, because the Shariah system works on a basis of choosing the lesser of 2 wrongs. 

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html

But I mean becoming a Muslim really changes your culture in a way.  Take for example, gambling.  In Islam, it's prohibited.

You must be thinking it's ridiculous to prohibit gambling.  And you have reasons x y and z.  But think about the values.  In Islam, by prohibiting gambling it's saying that, on a fundamental level, a man losing his entire savings is a far greater BAD in comparison to a man making some extra money.  That, on a societal level, we should be united enough to think that "it might be good for me to double or triple the money I have in my pocket, but for that to happen there will be people that suffer from addiction, and lose their savings and for that reason it's wrong."  It's really an amazing thing. 

People often approach religion with this idea that for a religion to be right it must be perfect.  But there is no such thing as a perfect system of society or a way of life.  Islam offers practical solutions to problems that, when understood in context of everything altogether, just click.

These kinda connections are made through reflection and research.  This is why I was emphasizing it earlier.

EDIT: My dad is agnostic.  I own and have read some of the works of Dawkins. Hitchens, and Russell.  I grew up listening to quotes by Russell from my pops.

It all brings me back to the first thing I wrote when I came in this thread and saw what was going on.  There are legitimate arguments on both sides.  And it's like that for a reason.

 

[dame theory]

 

[dame theory]

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

I mean, in a way I chose all 3, because Muslims claim Islam has been around since the beginning of man, it just wasn't called Islam at the time.  Judaism was Islam, then Christianity became Islam, and then Islam became Islam. 

But I chose Islam, for one, it offers tons and tons of practical solutions to issues that plague us today.  Take, for example, abortion.

From the Qur'an God tells us that life is given to the fetus after 4 months of gestation.  There is also a detailed description of embryology.  So a lot of scholars believe that Abortion is legitimate up to this time, because the Shariah system works on a basis of choosing the lesser of 2 wrongs. 

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html

But I mean becoming a Muslim really changes your culture in a way.  Take for example, gambling.  In Islam, it's prohibited.

You must be thinking it's ridiculous to prohibit gambling.  And you have reasons x y and z.  But think about the values.  In Islam, by prohibiting gambling it's saying that, on a fundamental level, a man losing his entire savings is a far greater BAD in comparison to a man making some extra money.  That, on a societal level, we should be united enough to think that "it might be good for me to double or triple the money I have in my pocket, but for that to happen there will be people that suffer from addiction, and lose their savings and for that reason it's wrong."  It's really an amazing thing. 

People often approach religion with this idea that for a religion to be right it must be perfect.  But there is no such thing as a perfect system of society or a way of life.  Islam offers practical solutions to problems that, when understood in context of everything altogether, just click.

These kinda connections are made through reflection and research.  This is why I was emphasizing it earlier.

EDIT: My dad is agnostic.  I own and have read some of the works of Dawkins. Hitchens, and Russell.  I grew up listening to quotes by Russell from my pops.

It all brings me back to the first thing I wrote when I came in this thread and saw what was going on.  There are legitimate arguments on both sides.  And it's like that for a reason.

Your views on the original religion? Controversial if I EVER heard a stance on religion. You're lying to yourself saying islam came before judaism or christianity. And to even say "it just wasnt called islam" ...whaaa? So if Judaism and Christianity were at one time Islam...why are they so different? You guys didn't get it right the first two times? Explain this one homie. Especially address the commonly accepted notion that islam is merely 1400ish years old... Come harder than that. Are you going to say Greek and Roman mythology were also Islam too? I mean it seems that might be the way out of addressing this point. 




I commend you looking to address your..."concerns"... with society so kudos for that. You're aligning yourself with the positive tenets of religion. No one has a problem with that. 

HOWEVER...No one has a problem with the good stuff in religion...its the subjective commands that seem to claim authority over everyone else...We have problems with things that for one reason or another come from a place of absolutism and are mixed with religion. 




Your views on abortion? Subjective. Don't let a religion tell you what you should think.

Your views on gambling? Subjective. Don't let a religion tell you what you should think. 




Homie... Sharia Law has for every reasonable tenet like 2-3 unreasonable ones. Re-read that link and the comment section on that....  ESPECIALLY how it is used today. You're kidding me. I'm starting to think you don't read/watch the news. Sharia law is impacting lives negatively around the world...especially in marginalized individuals. Its like me saying "yeah well the rule about wearing seat belts and obeying the speed limit is now optional. Have fun" Only to neglect the fact that people abuse this WIDELY. Its hard to defend something that clearly isn't even used in the same manner that it is revered as. Its not the fact that its the law of your religion, its the fact that its these rules that are adopted by your religion and championed and then used against the people in adverse ways. You gotta see it that way. I'm not going to champion the constitution's original format with 3/5's humans and women not being able to vote. If you wanna support Sharia...cool, but don't say its without fault in its present form. It needs a do-over. 




I think its funny how you tie in your religion with answers to life. So what about non-believers? Do they not have answers? What answers could a secular nation not provide? it seems that you've gained a notion that much of the secular advancement has been to the greater benefit of communities like yours that embrace islam by virtue of allowing you to continue your practices in an equal setting. If left to the rules one divine religion then i'm sure opposition would readily be crushed and eliminated with ease. I can't adopt something thats inconsistent. For example I'm not gonna roll with my friends who happen to rob people or who happen to do bad things to other people or constantly lie or cheat. its the association. While only choose to champion the good things that come of religion and refuse to embrace the bad? i agree, there are ills in society and things that impact the greater good. However, subscribing to a doctrine with ONE set of answers and ONE view of thinking about it limits the chance for true progress of a society's development of policy.  




Its cool if you admit islam isn't perfect. But you're not the problem. You're a moderate. And that makes you part of the problem. You're a fence rider on the issues and you don't even know it. You essentially pick and choose what to subscribe to. I know that if I support evolution I agree with all tenets of it...why? Because each tenet can be supported and tested and shown to exist (not saying you believe in evolution or not).Your position is in reality unstable. You champion what you want and claim that things aren't perfect but yet you model the way you live on a system that claims to be perfect. God. Allah. This is the issue. Its the notion of not accepting that there are things we don't know but will actively pursue in addressing but instead relinquishing control of addressing issues time and time again. If you choose to accept SOME of the practical notions of islam then how can you be fully immersed in your faith? Why believe in something thats inconsistent? Thats objectionable as frequently as your system of beliefs? Like I said... you claim Islam isn't perfect...yet you think Islam is the first religion...theres clearly a disconnect between facts and doctrine here. Its this contradictory nature that your religion is better than everyone elses...that makes islam...just like every other religion, the problem. 

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

I mean, in a way I chose all 3, because Muslims claim Islam has been around since the beginning of man, it just wasn't called Islam at the time.  Judaism was Islam, then Christianity became Islam, and then Islam became Islam. 

But I chose Islam, for one, it offers tons and tons of practical solutions to issues that plague us today.  Take, for example, abortion.

From the Qur'an God tells us that life is given to the fetus after 4 months of gestation.  There is also a detailed description of embryology.  So a lot of scholars believe that Abortion is legitimate up to this time, because the Shariah system works on a basis of choosing the lesser of 2 wrongs. 

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html

But I mean becoming a Muslim really changes your culture in a way.  Take for example, gambling.  In Islam, it's prohibited.

You must be thinking it's ridiculous to prohibit gambling.  And you have reasons x y and z.  But think about the values.  In Islam, by prohibiting gambling it's saying that, on a fundamental level, a man losing his entire savings is a far greater BAD in comparison to a man making some extra money.  That, on a societal level, we should be united enough to think that "it might be good for me to double or triple the money I have in my pocket, but for that to happen there will be people that suffer from addiction, and lose their savings and for that reason it's wrong."  It's really an amazing thing. 

People often approach religion with this idea that for a religion to be right it must be perfect.  But there is no such thing as a perfect system of society or a way of life.  Islam offers practical solutions to problems that, when understood in context of everything altogether, just click.

These kinda connections are made through reflection and research.  This is why I was emphasizing it earlier.

EDIT: My dad is agnostic.  I own and have read some of the works of Dawkins. Hitchens, and Russell.  I grew up listening to quotes by Russell from my pops.

It all brings me back to the first thing I wrote when I came in this thread and saw what was going on.  There are legitimate arguments on both sides.  And it's like that for a reason.

Your views on the original religion? Controversial if I EVER heard a stance on religion. You're lying to yourself saying islam came before judaism or christianity. And to even say "it just wasnt called islam" ...whaaa? So if Judaism and Christianity were at one time Islam...why are they so different? You guys didn't get it right the first two times? Explain this one homie. Especially address the commonly accepted notion that islam is merely 1400ish years old... Come harder than that. Are you going to say Greek and Roman mythology were also Islam too? I mean it seems that might be the way out of addressing this point. 




I commend you looking to address your..."concerns"... with society so kudos for that. You're aligning yourself with the positive tenets of religion. No one has a problem with that. 

HOWEVER...No one has a problem with the good stuff in religion...its the subjective commands that seem to claim authority over everyone else...We have problems with things that for one reason or another come from a place of absolutism and are mixed with religion. 




Your views on abortion? Subjective. Don't let a religion tell you what you should think.

Your views on gambling? Subjective. Don't let a religion tell you what you should think. 




Homie... Sharia Law has for every reasonable tenet like 2-3 unreasonable ones. Re-read that link and the comment section on that....  ESPECIALLY how it is used today. You're kidding me. I'm starting to think you don't read/watch the news. Sharia law is impacting lives negatively around the world...especially in marginalized individuals. Its like me saying "yeah well the rule about wearing seat belts and obeying the speed limit is now optional. Have fun" Only to neglect the fact that people abuse this WIDELY. Its hard to defend something that clearly isn't even used in the same manner that it is revered as. Its not the fact that its the law of your religion, its the fact that its these rules that are adopted by your religion and championed and then used against the people in adverse ways. You gotta see it that way. I'm not going to champion the constitution's original format with 3/5's humans and women not being able to vote. If you wanna support Sharia...cool, but don't say its without fault in its present form. It needs a do-over. 




I think its funny how you tie in your religion with answers to life. So what about non-believers? Do they not have answers? What answers could a secular nation not provide? it seems that you've gained a notion that much of the secular advancement has been to the greater benefit of communities like yours that embrace islam by virtue of allowing you to continue your practices in an equal setting. If left to the rules one divine religion then i'm sure opposition would readily be crushed and eliminated with ease. I can't adopt something thats inconsistent. For example I'm not gonna roll with my friends who happen to rob people or who happen to do bad things to other people or constantly lie or cheat. its the association. While only choose to champion the good things that come of religion and refuse to embrace the bad? i agree, there are ills in society and things that impact the greater good. However, subscribing to a doctrine with ONE set of answers and ONE view of thinking about it limits the chance for true progress of a society's development of policy.  




Its cool if you admit islam isn't perfect. But you're not the problem. You're a moderate. And that makes you part of the problem. You're a fence rider on the issues and you don't even know it. You essentially pick and choose what to subscribe to. I know that if I support evolution I agree with all tenets of it...why? Because each tenet can be supported and tested and shown to exist (not saying you believe in evolution or not).Your position is in reality unstable. You champion what you want and claim that things aren't perfect but yet you model the way you live on a system that claims to be perfect. God. Allah. This is the issue. Its the notion of not accepting that there are things we don't know but will actively pursue in addressing but instead relinquishing control of addressing issues time and time again. If you choose to accept SOME of the practical notions of islam then how can you be fully immersed in your faith? Why believe in something thats inconsistent? Thats objectionable as frequently as your system of beliefs? Like I said... you claim Islam isn't perfect...yet you think Islam is the first religion...theres clearly a disconnect between facts and doctrine here. Its this contradictory nature that your religion is better than everyone elses...that makes islam...just like every other religion, the problem. 

 

[antonlavey]

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html



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[antonlavey]

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html



popcorn gif

 

[dame theory]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

The model of Shariah law is also very logical and pretty appealing. http://www.huffingtonpost...of-shariah_b_701331.html



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Riiiiight? This is what got me like damn...I need to break this %%%@ down...: 

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

I mean, in a way I chose all 3, because Muslims claim Islam has been around since the beginning of man, it just wasn't called Islam at the time.  Judaism was Islam, then Christianity became Islam, and then Islam became Islam. 

Dude said Judaism and Christianity used to be Islam...and not only that, it ALWAYS was around. 

Bruh Bruh... c'mon son.