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California propositions thread: Props 1,2,3,8,9,11,12 Pass, Props 4,5,6,7,10 fail
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Those are all feelings and assumptions on your part. You are classifying a group based upon characteristics of individuals within that group. That is better known as stereotyping. As for voting issues, the majority has always determined what is best, or right, for the minority. The terms "rights" is thrown around very loosely. Rights are those legal protections whichcitizens of a State (I include Federal within the term State) are allowed and protected.
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Man I swear people keep saying we cling so tightly to our religion and we don't consider the other side. Consider our side oh wait you can't becauseyou don't believe what we believe. I can deal with that. Can YOU? You say its not a morale/religious issue but it is for ME. Deal with it move on and tryagain when its back on the ballot. Go to bed.
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s dubl
Supporter
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MMHMMM
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nailed it.
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RKO
The thing is though, I have considered your side. I attended a Christian private school for most of my life so trust me when I say that I've consideredyour side plenty. Fundamentalist Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin and of course you'd be compelled to vote against gay marriage. I can seethat. I struggle internally with my own personal views on homosexuality all the time. What I'm trying to get through though is the fact that this issuereally shouldn't be based on morals or religion. We're talking people here. People that don't necessarily share your beliefs. We have to rememberthat this is the United States of America. That we're composed of all different colors, cultures, backgrounds, religions, and etc. The thing that makes usgreat is that we've been able to coexist peacefully because we all share the same basic beliefs in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We justdecided on an amendment that will restrict one group of citizens in our state from participating in something everyone else in this state can.
edit: yeah I'm done. it's been a really long day of politics
let's all get some sleep
The thing is though, I have considered your side. I attended a Christian private school for most of my life so trust me when I say that I've consideredyour side plenty. Fundamentalist Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin and of course you'd be compelled to vote against gay marriage. I can seethat. I struggle internally with my own personal views on homosexuality all the time. What I'm trying to get through though is the fact that this issuereally shouldn't be based on morals or religion. We're talking people here. People that don't necessarily share your beliefs. We have to rememberthat this is the United States of America. That we're composed of all different colors, cultures, backgrounds, religions, and etc. The thing that makes usgreat is that we've been able to coexist peacefully because we all share the same basic beliefs in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We justdecided on an amendment that will restrict one group of citizens in our state from participating in something everyone else in this state can.
edit: yeah I'm done. it's been a really long day of politics
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I realize what your saying but being who I am, I try to follow Christ/God FIRST. God is #1. Jesus said Love God and put him first which issomething I still struggle with but I try to accomplish that. I refuse to forsake my Lord (who is keeping me alive and strong and has given me a wonderfulfamily) for the wants of man that I feel has/will lead many astray. Its like when your Mom tells you not to let Tom(who is a bad apple) borrow your PS3. If youknow better then Moms' word gets the vote. When it comes down to it God has something I want and need. Man cannot give me a world without pain or sorrow orsin. Only God can do that. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I won't let that be a roadblock. Call what I believe B.S. or whateveryou like but you will not break me. My spirit will not be broken.Originally Posted by DL2352
RKO
The thing is though, I have considered your side. I attended a Christian private school for most of my life so trust me when I say that I've considered your side plenty. Fundamentalist Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin and of course you'd be compelled to vote against gay marriage. I can see that. I struggle internally with my own personal views on homosexuality all the time. What I'm trying to get through though is the fact that this issue really shouldn't be based on morals or religion. We're talking people here. People that don't necessarily share your beliefs. We have to remember that this is the United States of America. That we're composed of all different colors, cultures, backgrounds, religions, and etc. The thing that makes us great is that we've been able to coexist peacefully because we all share the same basic beliefs in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We just decided on an amendment that will restrict one group of citizens in our state from participating in something everyone else in this state can.
edit: yeah I'm done. it's been a really long day of politicslet's all get some sleep
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all I really cared about was prop 2...
but prop 8 shouldnt have passed
but prop 8 shouldnt have passed
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All you have to do is look at the exit poll numbers for age groups to see where gay rights will end up in the next 4-12 years. The majority of the end ofGeneration X and the majority of Generation Y do not want to be remembered for hate and discrimination like a good portion of our grand parents and great grandparents will be remembered for at this time. It has taken time, and will continue to take a little more - just like the civil rights movement did; although,this certainly does not have the same impact of the civil rights movement as being gay isn't really all that noticeable unless the particular gay isreinforcing negative stereotypes - whereas being black obviously is noticeable.
Although I will admit it does sadden me that exit polls also show so many blacks and latinos against gay rights and for amending the constitution to actuallytake away rights. I do understand this somewhat as I know black people in particular are generally very religious and commited to their faith. Sometimes Ithink people (all races, not just blacks) who use the religious card so quickly in this only do it because they are afraid of death and are afraid if theyleave it blank or vote no that they will go to hell for that on particular 'offense'. That is probably a little controversial, but I think it hasmerit as the thought of hell or no afterlife at all is very unsettling to many people (myself included).
But again, gay rights will be passed in the near future. The younger kids of the world are far more open than the older generation that will be passing on,and they understand that gays are not a disease, they are not harmful because of their sexuality (the person who used the prison rape thing - that is not ahomosexual issue. Many of those men are not homosexual. Prison rape is a power play, it is meant to put yourself at the top of the food chain so peopledon't mess with you. It's just like how rape outside of prison is not a sexual thing, it is a power issue. This is also true of child molesters), andwhile certainly the negative stereotypes of homosexuals are the more prominent ones the majority of gays are normal people. Normal people just like everyoneon this board. Normal people just like blacks who wanted to vote and enter the same buildings as whites, women who wanted to vote, inter-racial couples whowanted to marry, blacks who wanted their freedom and not be slaves. Whites weren't better than blacks, men weren't better than women, andheterosexuals aren't better than homosexuals (and gays aren't better than straights).
I ask that those who voted for proposition 8 (or for the bans against gay marriages in Arizona and Florida) if you are voting for a religious reason pleasesimply leave it blank. God is the final judge, and it is not our place to judge our fellow citizen (if you try to bring up juries and trials against murderersagain please take a step back and really, really, really think hard about that). You do not have to vote against it, but I ask that you simply do not judgeyour fellow law-abiding but different sexual preference citizens in such a way that you take away rights to be equal from them. If they are truly guilty of aheinous sin then God will send them to hell, and I am positive he will send you to Heaven still because again, he is the judge and jury.
For those of you who voted for proposition 8 (and again for the ban of gay marriages in Arizona and Florida) because you are put off by the negativestereotypes that is, unfortunately, the most vocal of the gay rights movement I implore you to consider this: That is a minority of the gay population. Manygays are just like you - they live a quiet life, they don't flaunt their sexuality, they just want to live and support their families, they just want thesame rights as you (if you don't want it to be called marriage fine, but at least give them 100% f the same rights as heterosexual couples). Some even goto church like some of you here. They vote, they watch and play sports with their friends and their kids, they wear normal clothes and don't have a verynoticeable limp wrist syndrome and they don't talk like a sixteen year old valley-girl (who is really a boy). The majority of the gay population is notwhat you see on cable tv during sweeps month. They're just normal people who happen to have fallen in love with members of the same sex.
I am not judging those of you who voted yes on proposition 8 because as a person who attended a private Christian school for the majority of my schoolingyears, and as someone who comes from a Christian-dominant family I understand your thinking. I also understand this is a very heated and passionate topic. Isimply ask that you take some time to review your thoughts on this issue. Take time to talk to some of the real gay people and not just the negative in yourface gay people who perhaps put you off a little bit. Again, gay people just want the same exact rights as heterosexuals - it doesn't even have to becalled marriage.
Thank you if you read this post.
Although I will admit it does sadden me that exit polls also show so many blacks and latinos against gay rights and for amending the constitution to actuallytake away rights. I do understand this somewhat as I know black people in particular are generally very religious and commited to their faith. Sometimes Ithink people (all races, not just blacks) who use the religious card so quickly in this only do it because they are afraid of death and are afraid if theyleave it blank or vote no that they will go to hell for that on particular 'offense'. That is probably a little controversial, but I think it hasmerit as the thought of hell or no afterlife at all is very unsettling to many people (myself included).
But again, gay rights will be passed in the near future. The younger kids of the world are far more open than the older generation that will be passing on,and they understand that gays are not a disease, they are not harmful because of their sexuality (the person who used the prison rape thing - that is not ahomosexual issue. Many of those men are not homosexual. Prison rape is a power play, it is meant to put yourself at the top of the food chain so peopledon't mess with you. It's just like how rape outside of prison is not a sexual thing, it is a power issue. This is also true of child molesters), andwhile certainly the negative stereotypes of homosexuals are the more prominent ones the majority of gays are normal people. Normal people just like everyoneon this board. Normal people just like blacks who wanted to vote and enter the same buildings as whites, women who wanted to vote, inter-racial couples whowanted to marry, blacks who wanted their freedom and not be slaves. Whites weren't better than blacks, men weren't better than women, andheterosexuals aren't better than homosexuals (and gays aren't better than straights).
I ask that those who voted for proposition 8 (or for the bans against gay marriages in Arizona and Florida) if you are voting for a religious reason pleasesimply leave it blank. God is the final judge, and it is not our place to judge our fellow citizen (if you try to bring up juries and trials against murderersagain please take a step back and really, really, really think hard about that). You do not have to vote against it, but I ask that you simply do not judgeyour fellow law-abiding but different sexual preference citizens in such a way that you take away rights to be equal from them. If they are truly guilty of aheinous sin then God will send them to hell, and I am positive he will send you to Heaven still because again, he is the judge and jury.
For those of you who voted for proposition 8 (and again for the ban of gay marriages in Arizona and Florida) because you are put off by the negativestereotypes that is, unfortunately, the most vocal of the gay rights movement I implore you to consider this: That is a minority of the gay population. Manygays are just like you - they live a quiet life, they don't flaunt their sexuality, they just want to live and support their families, they just want thesame rights as you (if you don't want it to be called marriage fine, but at least give them 100% f the same rights as heterosexual couples). Some even goto church like some of you here. They vote, they watch and play sports with their friends and their kids, they wear normal clothes and don't have a verynoticeable limp wrist syndrome and they don't talk like a sixteen year old valley-girl (who is really a boy). The majority of the gay population is notwhat you see on cable tv during sweeps month. They're just normal people who happen to have fallen in love with members of the same sex.
I am not judging those of you who voted yes on proposition 8 because as a person who attended a private Christian school for the majority of my schoolingyears, and as someone who comes from a Christian-dominant family I understand your thinking. I also understand this is a very heated and passionate topic. Isimply ask that you take some time to review your thoughts on this issue. Take time to talk to some of the real gay people and not just the negative in yourface gay people who perhaps put you off a little bit. Again, gay people just want the same exact rights as heterosexuals - it doesn't even have to becalled marriage.
Thank you if you read this post.
lightweight champion
Banned
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Stop setting yourself up for these L's man.
Ever heard the story of The Good Samaritan? I mean, since you read the Bible and all I'm pretty sure you've heard, correct?
Well do you know the reason why Samaritans were considered to be bad? Why the countries around them frowned upon them? It's because back during those days inter-racial relationships, much less marriages, were considered to be against the will of God. People back then believed that those who weren't full blooded in one ethnicity were considered to be not of God's people. And the only place that tolerated inter-racial relationships at that time? Samaria. Yes, the same Samaria where the Samaritan passed and helped the injured man even though everyone else who passed him by did just that, pass him by. Without offering a helping hand.
And here we are centuries later and all of a sudden inter-racial marriages aren't frowned upon by the church anymore, they're widely accepted even though back in the day, it was against the word of God.
Try again.
OOOOO I'll be right back.
Edit: I'M BAAAAAAAAACK!
Wow you almost had me but NO. God said "be fruitful and multiply". Don't recall hearing or seeing "Black child be fruitful with that Black child and only that black child". So I'd say its not against the will of God. When Jesus told the story of "The Good Samaritan", He wanted to express that we need to love thy neighbor not sin with thy neighbor. Like I said I have never read or heard God say "Black child don't wed that White Woman". His love is color blind and He loves ALL His children. But he does NOT condone sin. Thats why we repent for them and ask for forgiveness and go away from that sin and not dwell in it. Now I'm not the perfect person but I try not to just dwell and live in sin.
And to further go in on what Jesus said. If I saw a sinner I'd help him. But I wont sin with him. Thats what He meant. He did not say "If you see a sinner, sin with him". But He said help each other out in time of NEED. I see what you tried to do. And I like it. Makes me think and do my research. But don't try and twist things.
You're not getting the point.
God's Law: Do not have inter-racial relations
God's Law: Do not have homosexual relations
The problem is you're not advocating the first law because it's already been accepted by the church even though it's written as sin and itwasn't preached upon you.
And you're only advocating the second law because it hasn't been accepted by the church.
It disappoints me that you always have an argument of "Bible this, and Bible that" yet it is man that wrote the Bible, not God. The men who wrotethe Bible wrote down their experiences of God, and that's what you're lacking....experience. You lack it because you're wanting to live the waymen before you lived and not how God is trying to tell you how to live. Read this, I hope it sheds a little more light for you:
God communicates with anyone and everyone, the only reason people think God doesn't talk to them is because they don't listen. Or, theylisten but don't hear God's message. That tends to happen with most people, but don't worry because you will get the message eventually. You see,God has four different tools He uses to communicate with us, and here they are:
1. Feeling - The language of the soul. If you want to know what's true for you about something, look to your feelings. Feelingsare difficult to discover, and even harder to acknowledge. Yet hidden in your deepest feelings is your highest truth.
2. Thought - Thoughts aren't the same as feelings, but they can occur at the same time. Thoughts use pictures and images and for that reasonthey're more effective than mere words.
3. Experience - The grand communicator. Experience is the hands-on interactive way that God communicates with us. Experience is wherethoughts and feelings are derived, or experience can be caused due to thoughts and feelings. The three are interchangeable and the order doesn't matter.
4. Words - When the first three tools fail, words are used. When you create feelings you ignore them, when you think thoughts youdiscard them, and when experience occurs you complain about it. Yet in all three God is telling you a message, the problem is you don't hear it. Words areused only as a last resort. Why? Because words are what they are, just words. They're noises, symbols, insignias. They only represent feelings, thoughts,and experience. Words are the tool that is most susceptible to misinterpretation, and that's why they're used the least and as a last resort. Words canonly tell you about something, experience allows you to know.
We emphasize so much about the Word of God that we forget about the Experience of God. Or, we experience but we discard. We oftendiscard the experience of God because it contradicts what we're taught. We rely so much on what it is others have said about God that we abandon our ownthoughts, feelings, and experiences. But that's okay because not all messages are from God.
You see, the men in the Bible wrote down their thoughts, feelings, and experiences of God. And you are trying to live by their thoughts, feelings, andexperiences yet you aren't creating your own.
I'll add more later when I get back from work.
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I'm not reading through all this, but did Prop 8 pass or fail?
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It's still undecided, they're still tallying the votes.
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95% of the precincts have turned in their results. So far it's passing.
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So by passing that means gay marriage is illegal?
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Passing meaning they are going to amend the constitution to make marriage only between a man and a woman.
- 40,238
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Black people do not care about gay rights.
That's not true.
The younger generation does.
Older church going black people don't care about gay rights. I tired to explain to my mother that it used to illegal for my wife (white) and I (black) toget married. Was that fair? No. Who are we to say that gay people shouldn't get married? Then my mom went to the bible...I stopped talking there. Samething with my father.
With the struggles we went through as a people just to vote why would we tell other people they can't do something just because they are gay?
So ashamed right now...
joe mcknight is ballin
Banned
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these religious zealots
if these nutcases stopped waving the bible in everyones face for a sec theywould see how no on prop 8 would actually help everyone out in the money california gets for these wedding licenses.
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this is a fb status that i saw and wanted to share, to further discussions:
"...is wondering how a nation can rise up and elect an African-American president, yet California can reject equality."
"...is wondering how a nation can rise up and elect an African-American president, yet California can reject equality."
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Obama - check
Animal rights - check
Human rights - naaaaaaaah
For the first time, I'm not very proud to be from this state.
Animal rights - check
Human rights - naaaaaaaah
For the first time, I'm not very proud to be from this state.
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Oh my $%%!#!! God .
Yes I'm pissed .
Equality huh ?
How is this equality eliminating someones right to marriage and happiness ?
Religious zealots have nothing better to do but to worry about others .
I hope that when they get to Heaven (if there is one) , they get shunned the most just from the distress they are causing others because of THEIR beliefs .
Damn man , why can't people leave others the %!*! alone instead of forcing THEIR religious views and opinions on them ?
I was feeling hella good today ... America made Change , got a black man in office ...
, but then I turn around and hear this .
With Obama we took 10 steps forward but honestly this Prop %@*% is 5 steps back .
America . The land of freedom ?
&nd I know Obama is for gay rights ... I wasn't talking about him .
Yes I'm pissed .
Equality huh ?
How is this equality eliminating someones right to marriage and happiness ?
Religious zealots have nothing better to do but to worry about others .
I hope that when they get to Heaven (if there is one) , they get shunned the most just from the distress they are causing others because of THEIR beliefs .
Damn man , why can't people leave others the %!*! alone instead of forcing THEIR religious views and opinions on them ?
I was feeling hella good today ... America made Change , got a black man in office ...
With Obama we took 10 steps forward but honestly this Prop %@*% is 5 steps back .
America . The land of freedom ?
&nd I know Obama is for gay rights ... I wasn't talking about him .
step your game up
Banned
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Originally Posted by RKO2004
You know He supports Gay marriage right?Originally Posted by Oh YoU MaD
+
Thats rightToday was a good day
No, he does not. Get your facts straight. He does not support gay marriage but civil unions. By definition marriage is a union between man and woman(look it up in a dictionary). Marriage is not defined as a union between two people who love each other, but specifically MAN and WOMAN.
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[h1]California voters approve Proposition 8 ban on same-sex marriages[/h1]
Email Picture
Rick Loomis / Los Angeles Times
Bob Knoke, of Mission Viejo, Amanda Stanfield, of Monrovia, Jim Domen, of Yorba Linda, and J.D. Gaddis, of Yorba Linda, celebrate returns for Proposition 8 at an Irvine hotel.
The measure was the most divisive on the state ballot. Its passage throws into doubt the unions of thousands of recently wed couples.
By Jessica Garrison, Cara Mia DiMassa and Nancy Vogel
8:35 AM PST, November 5, 2008
A measure to once again ban gay marriage in California was passed by voters in Tuesday's election, throwing into doubt the unions of an estimated 18,000 same-sex couples who wed during the last 4 1/2 months.
As Proposition 8, the most divisive and emotionally fraught issue on the state ballot this year, took a lead in early returns, supporters gathered at a hotel ballroom in Sacramento and cheered.
"We caused Californians to rethink this issue," Proposition 8 strategist Jeff Flint said.
Early in the campaign, he noted, polls showed the measure trailing by 17 points.
"I think the voters were thinking, well, if it makes them happy, why shouldn't we let gay couples get married. And I think we made them realize that there are broader implications to society and particularly the children when you make that fundamental change that's at the core of how society is organized, which is marriage," he said.
In San Francisco on Tuesday night at the packed headquarters of the "No on 8" campaign party in the Westin St. Francis Hotel, supporters heard from San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, whose decision to issue same-sex wedding licenses in his city led to the court ruling that made gay marriage briefly legal in the state. .
"You decided to live your life out loud. You fell in love and you said, 'I do.' Tonight, we await a verdict," Newsom said, speaking to a roaring crowd before final returns were in.
Elsewhere in the country, two other gay-marriage bans, in Florida and Arizona, also won. In both states, laws already defined marriage as a heterosexual institution. But backers pushed to amend the state constitutions, saying that doing so would protect the institution from legal challenges.
Proposition 8 was the most expensive proposition on any ballot in the nation this year, with more than $74 million spent by both sides.
The measure's most fervent proponents believed that nothing less than the future of traditional families was at stake, while opponents believed that they were fighting for the fundamental right of gay people to be treated equally under the law.
"This has been a moral battle," said Ellen Smedley, 34, a member of the Mormon Church and a mother of five who worked on the campaign. "We aren't trying to change anything that homosexual couples believe or want -- it doesn't change anything that they're allowed to do already. It's defining marriage. . . . Marriage is a man and a woman establishing a family unit."
On the other side were people like John Lewis, 50, and Stuart Gaffney, 46, who were married in June. They were at the San Francisco party holding a little sign in the shape of pink heart that said, "John and Stuart 21 years." They spent the day campaigning against Proposition 8 with family members across the Bay Area.
"Our relationship, our marriage, after 21 years together has been put up for a popular vote," Lewis said. "We have done what anyone would do in this situation: stand up for our family."
The battle was closely watched across the nation because California is considered a harbinger of cultural change and because this is the first time voters have weighed in on gay marriage in a state where it was legal.
Campaign contributions came from every state in the nation in opposition to the measure and every state but Vermont to its supporters.
And as far away as Washington, D.C., gay rights organizations hosted gatherings Tuesday night to watch voting results on Proposition 8.
"This is the biggest civil rights struggle for our movement in decades. . . ." said Human Rights Campaign President Joe Solomonese, speaking from a Proposition 8 gathering at a brewery in the nation's capital. "The outcome weighs incredibly heavily on the minds of every single person in the room."
Eight years ago, Californians voted 61% to define marriage as being only between a man and a woman.
The California Supreme Court overturned that measure, Proposition 22, in its May 15 decision legalizing same-sex marriage on the grounds that the state Constitution required equal treatment of gay and lesbian couples.
Opponents of Proposition 8 faced a difficult challenge. Bob Stern, president of the Center for Governmental Studies, said California voters "very, very rarely reverse themselves" especially in such a short time. Both sides waged a passionate -- and at times bitter -- fight over whether to allow same-sex marriages to continue. The campaigns spent tens of millions of dollars in dueling television and radio commercials that blanketed the airwaves for weeks.
But supporters and opponents also did battle on street corners and front lawns, from the pulpits of churches and synagogues and -- unusual for a fight over a social issue -- in the boardrooms of many of the state's largest corporations.
Most of the state's highest-profile political leaders -- including both U.S. senators and the mayors of San Francisco, San Diego and Los Angeles -- along with the editorial pages of most major newspapers, opposed the measure. PG&E, Apple and other companies contributed money to fight the proposition, and the heads of Silicon Valley companies including Google and Yahoo took out a newspaper ad opposing it.
On the other side were an array of conservative organizations, including the Knights of Columbus, Focus on the Family and the American Family Assn., along with tens of thousands of small donors, including many who responded to urging from Mormon, Catholic and evangelical clergy.
An early October filing by the "yes" campaign reported so many contributions that the secretary of state's campaign finance website crashed.
Proponents also organized a massive grass-roots effort. Campaign officials said they distributed more than 1.1 million lawn signs for Proposition 8 -- although an effort to stage a massive, simultaneous lawn-sign planting in late September failed after a production glitch in China delayed the arrival of hundreds of thousands of signs.
Research and polling showed that many voters were against gay marriage, but afraid that saying so would make them seem "discriminatory" or "not cool," said Flint, so proponents hoped to show them they were not alone.
Perhaps more powerfully, the Proposition 8 campaign also seized on the issue of education, arguing in a series of advertisements and mailers that children would be subjected to a pro-gay curriculum if the measure was not approved.
"Mom, guess what I learned in school today?" a little girl said in one spot. "I learned how a prince married a prince."
As the girl's mother made a horrified face, a voice-over said: "Think it can't happen? It's already happened. . . . Teaching about gay marriage will happen unless we pass Proposition 8."
Many voters said they had been swayed by that message.
"We thought it would go this way," Proposition 8 co-chair Frank Schubert said. "We had 100,000 people on the streets today. We had people in every precinct, if not knocking on doors, then phoning voters in every precinct. We canvassed the entire state of California, one on one, asking people face to face how do they feel about this issue.
"And this is the kind of issue people are very personal and private about, and they don't like talking to pollsters, they don't like talking to the media, but we had a pretty good idea how they felt and that's being reflected in the vote count."
Jessica Garrison, Cara Mia DiMassa and Richard Paddock are Times staff writers.
Email Picture
Rick Loomis / Los Angeles Times
Bob Knoke, of Mission Viejo, Amanda Stanfield, of Monrovia, Jim Domen, of Yorba Linda, and J.D. Gaddis, of Yorba Linda, celebrate returns for Proposition 8 at an Irvine hotel.
The measure was the most divisive on the state ballot. Its passage throws into doubt the unions of thousands of recently wed couples.
- Proposition 8: Gay marriage ban Yes 52.0% No 48.0% Precincts reporting: ~95.0%
By Jessica Garrison, Cara Mia DiMassa and Nancy Vogel
8:35 AM PST, November 5, 2008
A measure to once again ban gay marriage in California was passed by voters in Tuesday's election, throwing into doubt the unions of an estimated 18,000 same-sex couples who wed during the last 4 1/2 months.
As Proposition 8, the most divisive and emotionally fraught issue on the state ballot this year, took a lead in early returns, supporters gathered at a hotel ballroom in Sacramento and cheered.
"We caused Californians to rethink this issue," Proposition 8 strategist Jeff Flint said.
Early in the campaign, he noted, polls showed the measure trailing by 17 points.
"I think the voters were thinking, well, if it makes them happy, why shouldn't we let gay couples get married. And I think we made them realize that there are broader implications to society and particularly the children when you make that fundamental change that's at the core of how society is organized, which is marriage," he said.
In San Francisco on Tuesday night at the packed headquarters of the "No on 8" campaign party in the Westin St. Francis Hotel, supporters heard from San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, whose decision to issue same-sex wedding licenses in his city led to the court ruling that made gay marriage briefly legal in the state. .
"You decided to live your life out loud. You fell in love and you said, 'I do.' Tonight, we await a verdict," Newsom said, speaking to a roaring crowd before final returns were in.
Elsewhere in the country, two other gay-marriage bans, in Florida and Arizona, also won. In both states, laws already defined marriage as a heterosexual institution. But backers pushed to amend the state constitutions, saying that doing so would protect the institution from legal challenges.
Proposition 8 was the most expensive proposition on any ballot in the nation this year, with more than $74 million spent by both sides.
The measure's most fervent proponents believed that nothing less than the future of traditional families was at stake, while opponents believed that they were fighting for the fundamental right of gay people to be treated equally under the law.
"This has been a moral battle," said Ellen Smedley, 34, a member of the Mormon Church and a mother of five who worked on the campaign. "We aren't trying to change anything that homosexual couples believe or want -- it doesn't change anything that they're allowed to do already. It's defining marriage. . . . Marriage is a man and a woman establishing a family unit."
On the other side were people like John Lewis, 50, and Stuart Gaffney, 46, who were married in June. They were at the San Francisco party holding a little sign in the shape of pink heart that said, "John and Stuart 21 years." They spent the day campaigning against Proposition 8 with family members across the Bay Area.
"Our relationship, our marriage, after 21 years together has been put up for a popular vote," Lewis said. "We have done what anyone would do in this situation: stand up for our family."
The battle was closely watched across the nation because California is considered a harbinger of cultural change and because this is the first time voters have weighed in on gay marriage in a state where it was legal.
Campaign contributions came from every state in the nation in opposition to the measure and every state but Vermont to its supporters.
And as far away as Washington, D.C., gay rights organizations hosted gatherings Tuesday night to watch voting results on Proposition 8.
"This is the biggest civil rights struggle for our movement in decades. . . ." said Human Rights Campaign President Joe Solomonese, speaking from a Proposition 8 gathering at a brewery in the nation's capital. "The outcome weighs incredibly heavily on the minds of every single person in the room."
Eight years ago, Californians voted 61% to define marriage as being only between a man and a woman.
The California Supreme Court overturned that measure, Proposition 22, in its May 15 decision legalizing same-sex marriage on the grounds that the state Constitution required equal treatment of gay and lesbian couples.
Opponents of Proposition 8 faced a difficult challenge. Bob Stern, president of the Center for Governmental Studies, said California voters "very, very rarely reverse themselves" especially in such a short time. Both sides waged a passionate -- and at times bitter -- fight over whether to allow same-sex marriages to continue. The campaigns spent tens of millions of dollars in dueling television and radio commercials that blanketed the airwaves for weeks.
But supporters and opponents also did battle on street corners and front lawns, from the pulpits of churches and synagogues and -- unusual for a fight over a social issue -- in the boardrooms of many of the state's largest corporations.
Most of the state's highest-profile political leaders -- including both U.S. senators and the mayors of San Francisco, San Diego and Los Angeles -- along with the editorial pages of most major newspapers, opposed the measure. PG&E, Apple and other companies contributed money to fight the proposition, and the heads of Silicon Valley companies including Google and Yahoo took out a newspaper ad opposing it.
On the other side were an array of conservative organizations, including the Knights of Columbus, Focus on the Family and the American Family Assn., along with tens of thousands of small donors, including many who responded to urging from Mormon, Catholic and evangelical clergy.
An early October filing by the "yes" campaign reported so many contributions that the secretary of state's campaign finance website crashed.
Proponents also organized a massive grass-roots effort. Campaign officials said they distributed more than 1.1 million lawn signs for Proposition 8 -- although an effort to stage a massive, simultaneous lawn-sign planting in late September failed after a production glitch in China delayed the arrival of hundreds of thousands of signs.
Research and polling showed that many voters were against gay marriage, but afraid that saying so would make them seem "discriminatory" or "not cool," said Flint, so proponents hoped to show them they were not alone.
Perhaps more powerfully, the Proposition 8 campaign also seized on the issue of education, arguing in a series of advertisements and mailers that children would be subjected to a pro-gay curriculum if the measure was not approved.
"Mom, guess what I learned in school today?" a little girl said in one spot. "I learned how a prince married a prince."
As the girl's mother made a horrified face, a voice-over said: "Think it can't happen? It's already happened. . . . Teaching about gay marriage will happen unless we pass Proposition 8."
Many voters said they had been swayed by that message.
"We thought it would go this way," Proposition 8 co-chair Frank Schubert said. "We had 100,000 people on the streets today. We had people in every precinct, if not knocking on doors, then phoning voters in every precinct. We canvassed the entire state of California, one on one, asking people face to face how do they feel about this issue.
"And this is the kind of issue people are very personal and private about, and they don't like talking to pollsters, they don't like talking to the media, but we had a pretty good idea how they felt and that's being reflected in the vote count."
Jessica Garrison, Cara Mia DiMassa and Richard Paddock are Times staff writers.
