Dave Chappelle Netflix Specials

[gry60]

I come in peace.

I am honestly asking this question and am not trying to trap you or anything.

TO YOU, What type of jokes are acceptable when it involves a straight person making a joke about anything LGBT?

If it is a hard question to answer cool, but it seems like people (not you necessarily) are indirectly saying those types of jokes are off-limits.

The issue is not about what's acceptable. It's about what's unacceptable.

Chappelle admitted to not knowing a lot of things about LGBT folks when he made inappropriate jokes about them. That's fine. He got called out and instead of readjusting, he doubled down and had more specials about how gay people can't take a joke. This is what people have an issue with.

"To err is human, to persist is diabolical"

 

[RustyShackleford]

Nah - you aint alone at all Fam.

Question: Is Gender a fact? Yes or No?

Result of asking said Question in 2021:

Unfortunately for some folks, reality does not conform to social constructs.

I quoted your post and highlighted this...

I'd like you to tell me if Gender is a fact (in your opinion).

Ex: "Every human being on Earth had to pass through the legs of a Woman to be on Earth"

Is this a fact or not?

I'm only asking your opinion to better understand your position.

That's all.

No animosity here and I'm not trying to win any debates or "argue".

If you wanted to just ask the first question in regards to the first statement, then do it

But you stated the second question was an example of the first statement, all I did was point out the flaw in the example you used

That is it

Now you want to act like somehow doing so is denying reality. Cool, knock yourself out.

To me, you undercut your own statement, but how someone is deflecting by point that out?

Ok famb, whatever you say

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The issue is not about what's acceptable. It's about what's unacceptable.

Chappelle admitted to not knowing a lot of things about LGBT folks when he made inappropriate jokes about them. That's fine. He got called out and instead of readjusting, he doubled down and had more specials about how gay people can't take a joke. This is what people have an issue with.

"To err is human, to persist is diabolical"

people keep repeating this but

did he actually double down?

-he acknowledged he used inappropriate terminally in describing trans people
-he affirmed that trans women are women.
-he came out against anti trans legislation
-he admonished the crown for cheering the mention of a bathroom bill
- and he closed with his story with a heartbreaking story about his friendship with a trans woman.

this is doubling down?

 

[DCAllAfrican]

The issue is not about what's acceptable. It's about what's unacceptable.

Chappelle admitted to not knowing a lot of things about LGBT folks when he made inappropriate jokes about them. That's fine. He got called out and instead of readjusting, he doubled down and had more specials about how gay people can't take a joke. This is what people have an issue with.

"To err is human, to persist is diabolical"

Right but before some folks (which is never unanimous) tell you what is unacceptable, how would an artist know what was unacceptable?

 

[gry60]

I'd like you to tell me if Gender is a fact (in your opinion).

Ex: "Every human being on Earth had to pass through the legs of a Woman to be on Earth"

Is this a fact or not?

I'm only asking your opinion to better understand your position.

That's all.

No animosity here and I'm not trying to win any debates or "argue".

Let's disregard the "technicality" that is the C-section.

Yes, every human being was brought to earth by a woman.

Now, let's place that statement in the proper context of Chappelle's "The Closer:"

He asked "what really determines a woman?" and he used the statement above along with bleeding vaginas to determine real women from the not-so-real ones.

What does that make menopausal women? What does that make sterile women?

I think they're real women too, even though they can't bear children. Do you?

And if you don't think they are real women, what are they?

 

[Present]

Let's disregard the "technicality" that is the C-section.

Yes, every human being was brought to earth by a woman.

Now, let's place that statement in the proper context of Chappelle's "The Closer:"

He asked "what really determines a woman?" and he used the statement above along with bleeding vaginas to determine real women from the not-so-real ones.

What does that make menopausal women? What does that make sterile women?

I think they're real women too, even though they can't bear children. Do you?

And if you don't think they are real women, what are they?

Thank You for being honest.

I don't want to cause any more issues here with the argumentum ad nauseam.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Let's disregard the "technicality" that is the C-section.

Yes, every human being was brought to earth by a woman.

Now, let's place that statement in the proper context of Chappelle's "The Closer:"

He asked "what really determines a woman?" and he used the statement above along with bleeding vaginas to determine real women from the not-so-real ones.

What does that make menopausal women? What does that make sterile women?

I think they're real women too, even though they can't bear children. Do you?

And if you don't think they are real women, what are they?

It might have gotten lost in my post, but this is my issue

Not a gotcha on a technicality, but the general laziness of Dave's arguments.

And that to engage in a nuanced argument, we must start at a place devoid of nuance

 

[Methodical Management]

ah here we go, wrapping yourself in the opinions of trans activist of color to delegitimize dissenting opinion.

yes of course im pointing this out because I think it's bad for marginalized people,

And you wrap yourself in reactionary talking points ripped from Laura Ingraham chyrons.

Trans people of all backgrounds can, and do, speak for themselves on this issue. Elevating their perspectives is essential to try and counterbalance, to any degree, the megaphone available to celebrities.

I’ve invited you to comment on the views presented by Black trans activists, but all you want to do is criticize points nobody here made and argue by proxy with performative White liberals about political correctness.

Meth wants to assert his assessment of the scale of harm as undeniable.

And what scale might that be? I’ve asserted that the harm exists, and is most keenly felt by those with the least relative privilege - i.e. not Caitlyn Jenner.

You don’t want to admit or even discuss that, so you try to make it about claims nobody in here has made. Unless you’d like to discuss the positions I’ve actually taken, and not the positions you’ve attempted to assign me for the purpose of debate, there is no new ground to cover here.

 

[RustyShackleford]

again ill repeat it's possible I have a blind spot for art and artists. ill cop to it.
so take this with the appropriate grain of salt.

but I think it's bad,
I think Donald Glover made an twitter post along the lines oh

"We're getting boring stuff and not even experimental mistakes because people are afraid of getting cancelled." as a result "artists feel like they can only experiment with aesthetic."

art is an important part of having a vibrant and free socitey.

and I think it trickles down to the rest of socitey.

it leads to a lot of Jon Grudens; people who know how to say and do the right things in public.
but hold the same toxic ideas in private and in the voting booth.

Sorry, but I am not sympathetic to the argument that much

I can explain in detail if you would like, but this seems to being arguing that somehow protecting artistic expression (or anything classified as such) needs to be protected at such a level that even open disrespect to marginalized and vulnerable communities should be tolerated.

And failure to guarantee such drives people's bigotries

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Sorry, but I am not sympathetic to the argument that much

I can explain in detail if you would like, but this seems to being arguing that somehow protecting artistic expression (or anything classified as such) needs to be protected at such a level that even open disrespect to marginalized and vulnerable communities should be tolerated.

And failure to guarantee such drives people's bigotries

there is a line to be drawn, certainly. I just wouldn't draw it at The Closer.
imo I don't think The Closer is open disrespect"

but like I said minds can differ.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

And you wrap yourself in reactionary talking points ripped from Laura Ingraham chyrons.

Trans people of all backgrounds can, and do, speak for themselves on this issue. Elevating their perspectives is essential to try and counterbalance, to any degree, the megaphone available to celebrities.

I’ve invited you to comment on the views presented by Black trans activists, but all you want to do is criticize points nobody here made and argue by proxy with performative White liberals about political correctness.


And what scale might that be? I’ve asserted that the harm exists, and is most keenly felt by those with the least relative privilege - i.e. not Caitlyn Jenner.

You don’t want to admit or even discuss that, so you try to make it about claims nobody in here has made. Unless you’d like to discuss the positions I’ve actually taken, and not the positions you’ve attempted to assign me for the purpose of debate, there is no new ground to cover here.

I read the essence article, there is no new ground to cover as it makes the same claims.

His message is clear: trans women aren’t real women and there is no intersectionality between Blackness and the LGBTQ community.

as you know I don't agree that that was the message of the special, he literally says trans women are women,

The notions he spouts during his specials cause more than hurt feelings. They are a matter of life and death.

the argument that the speech in the special will lead to dead trans women.
as I've said i don't think it's a reasonable argument.

a special that says transwomen are women, supports trans political struggle ect ect is the special that will lead to black trans people dying?

Every year since 2013, the number of trans women murdered increases. And every year, Black and Latinx women represent the greatest number of victims.

Members of the trans community have been pleading with us to acknowledge this level of violence. They’ve asked us to simply watch our mouths in order not to perpetuate it.

quotes the HRC and implies that it's anti trans bigotry that is driving the deaths.
again i don't agree with that, and even if I did, I would not define the closer as anti trans.

Choosing to focus on the racial dynamics of Chappelle’s critic instead of our collective transphobia is an easy choice for those of us who don’t want to do the work. It’s a decision to remain stagnant, to pretend that as cishet Black folks we don’t enjoy any privileges in this world. It is to adopt the same talking points and ideologies of our oppressors. And most importantly, it’s to ignore the Black women who suffer most in our community all for the sake of a few laughs.

Commenting on the racial dynamics or class dynamics at play in the reaction the closer is not good faith disagreement, it's simply transphobia.

if im not making the specific intersectional critism activist want me to make im being transphobic.

I don't agree, we can move on.

 

[gry60]

Thank You for being honest.

I don't want to cause any more issues here with the argumentum ad nauseum.

That's right. Run as far as you can from the discussion

 

[gry60]

Right but before some folks (which is never unanimous) tell you what is unacceptable, how would an artist know what was unacceptable?

How did white comedians know that blackface was unacceptable?

Black people complained.

 

[6pac]

They tryna play dirty now

 

[1995]

people keep repeating this but

did he actually double down?

-he acknowledged he used inappropriate terminally in describing trans people
-he affirmed that trans women are women.
-he came out against anti trans legislation
-he admonished the crown for cheering the mention of a bathroom bill
- and he closed with his story with a heartbreaking story about his friendship with a trans woman.

this is doubling down?

Do you think that saying something positive about trans people cancels out a negative statement?

You've mentioned that there is a place to draw a line, but does that line get pushed back if he adds a couple more positive remarks?

 

[Present]

That's right. Run as far as you can from the discussion

Enters thread...

...Exits thread

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Do you think that saying something positive about trans people cancels out a negative statement?

You've mentioned that there is a place to draw a line, but does that line get pushed back if he adds a couple more positive remarks?

What were the negative statements?

 

[Master Zik]

Yo I don't even understand the question 'Is gender a fact? Yes or no?'

What is that even suppose to mean? Is it not a word and concept with its own meaning? Gender is a social construct. Is the question about if that is a fact?

Cuz if not the question doesn't seem to be any less vague or nonsensical than 'Is man a fact?', 'Is woman a fact?' 'Is niketalk a fact?'

It legit almost seems like it's someone not completely familiar or can full grasp English grammar trying to ask a question.


The only other thing that comes to mind was when I was having a discussion with a few other trans ppl on a different forum where I was discovering their very different definitions of what it means to be trans and how they do not even agree (even with each other) that the idea of sex exists and that they're "assigned a sex at birth" based on rare genetic syndromes, diseases, xy chromosome variations, etc.

 

[Methodical Management]

Amazing how went from this:

white LGBTQ people use black trans lives as a bloody shirt to enforce their preferred speech environment.

ah here we go, wrapping yourself in the opinions of trans activist of color to delegitimize dissenting opinion.

To this:

I read the essence article, there is no new ground to cover as it makes the same claims.

That White people have a tendency to use other groups as a human shield to promote their own self interests is a very real and disingenuous tactic that effectively silences all those they presumptuously attempt to speak for.
You are unwittingly engaged in the same reductive practice, lumping together all criticism of the special and then attributing it to White people, who you can easily dismiss.

Now, you've been asked to engage the views of Black writers and activists in an article and you're dismissing them because they're making "the same claims." That's some interesting transposition.

At least you've finally acknowledged, in the most roundabout manner, the claims you take issue with aren't just being made about or "on behalf of" Black trans women.

Commenting on the racial dynamics or class dynamics at play in the reaction the closer is not good faith disagreement, it's simply transphobia.

You’re the same one claiming that White trans people invoking the racial dynamics are using Black trans people as a “bloody shirt.” Now invoking the racial dynamics is “transphobia?” What?

You just acknowledged that White people aren’t the only ones making these points.

a special that says transwomen are women, supports trans political struggle ect ect is the special that will lead to black trans people dying?

You're cherry picking. There are specific jokes in this special that have been mentioned on numerous occasions that you're choosing to gloss over.

It's one thing to say "trans women are women", but if you're bookending that by comparing trans women to White people in Blackface, calling yourself “trans exclusionary,” and ridiculing trans women's bodies, it comes off as less than totally sincere.

You keep acting like the only harm that matters is a hate crime directly motivated by this one special while ignoring how, for example, it might feel to walk into school this week and listening to kids comparing your body to "Beyond Meat,” or what it would feel like come into a thread like this one and see everyone praising Dave for his “bravery.”

Again, this dynamic reportedly factored into Dave’s decision to walk away from his Comedy Central show, so if it were your contention that jokes can’t have any meaningful effect on society or inequality, you’d be disagreeing with Dave himself.

Richard Pryor removed racial slurs from his act for similar reasons. Both comedians were mindful of their intentions and how they squared with the audience’s reactions.

They understood the difference between being laughed with and laughed at - which Dave invokes at the end of his set. He recognizes this distinction at a very personal level.

It is hard to dispute that much of Dave’s material about trans people invites audiences to laugh at them.

quotes the HRC and implies that it's anti trans bigotry that is driving the deaths.
again i don't agree with that, and even if I did, I would not define the closer as anti trans.

You're basically trying to "yah I don't agree" the idea that trans people are disproportionately subject to violence and suicide for any reason other than bad luck.

You've called them a "super minority."

So let's clarify your position: do you believe that trans people enjoy enhanced safety or protection relative to their cishet counterparts?

Do you believe that the prevalence of mainstream transphobic content has no impact on the wellbeing of trans people?

 

[1995]

What were the negative statements?

Let's start with him claiming to be on "Team TERF"

Does that get cancelled out by the positive statements that you have referenced?

 

[trynafeelmink]

That transracial Skit from ATLANTA might be the only mainstream thing i've seen touch on transgender in a comical way & not get killed for it.

Hopefully this doesn't deter future content creators from speaking on the subject due to fear of backlash.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Pretty sure the Atlanta Transracial skit was taking aim at Rachel Dolezal mainly, and it was used as a vehicle to circle back to accusation the white lady was making about rap music and black people

The added punchline was the white liberal lady trying to call black people out as uniquely intolerant, then was as a white person the transracial dude ended up being a bigoted homophobe.

Kinda seemed like preachy white liberals were the punching bags

 

[IATT]

The joke wasn’t the transgender individual..

it was them bringing the rapper on and assuming what his opinions would be and jumping to conclusions before actually hearing him out

and then someone who has spent years as a black person turning super white conservative real quick.. when people assumed he would have progressive views because of his life experiences

 

[RustyShackleford]

The joke wasn’t the transgender individual..

it was them bringing the rapper on and assuming what his opinions would be and jumping to conclusions before actually hearing him out

and then someone who has spent years as a black person turning super white conservative real quick.. when people assumed he would have progressive views because of his life experiences

Yeah, it was really kinda genius

The character co-opted the language of progressivism to defend his actions, lulled someone into a false sense of moral superiority, then in true entitled white person fashion refused to practice sympathy with a marginalized group. And caught his former moralizing ally completely off guard.

 

[trynafeelmink]

That transracial skit was also making a direct comparison between the idea of being transracial & transgender. The concept of telling someone you are one thing despite your appearance saying otherwise.

We've seen the idea of transracial be committed on social media before, didn't go over too smooth . But better believe that over the next decade that is coming & boy oh boy