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[IATT]

Originally Posted by Just bLAzed

for whoever said we don't know actually how long Kobe has been putting in work at the gym, we don't need to know the exact hours. tidbits like this give us a pretty good idea of his work ethic and his devotion to basketball. This is from today, and it's Tom Thibodeau saying this.

"You could just tell [that Bryant was special]. The way he would study everything. [It was] amazing for a high school kid."

"He was a high school kid, and if he had a day off from school he'd be in the gym from eight in the morning till eight at night. And he was trying to play against the pros and watch everything and lift weights."

Having been around basketball most of his life, Thibodeau knew what he was seeing.

no one should question kobe's work ethic.. i think that is something we all can agree on, that dude works hard.. hell, i think we all agree that kobe is top 10 ever..

the problem is kobe homers can't take you questioning him on anything.. just as bad as damn cowboys' fans on this board



seriously, let's take a look at the things kobe fans will make excuses for him for:

1) he missed the playoffs when he had butler and odom on his team (dwayne wade in his rookie season was able to get to the 2nd round with those 2)

2) he lost 2 finals appearances

3) his stats go down across the board when the playoffs come

4) his shooting percentages go down in the playoffs

5) his best statistical years were when his team didn't make the playoffs and lost in the 1st round twice

6) his coach wrote a book which discussed his "issues"

7) we have blatant examples of him quitting on his team

he demanded a trade from his team

9) when he got in trouble, he ratted out a teammate as if it would save his ***

but yet, you guys want us to seriously believe that we are crazy for wanting to take other players over him

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by Just bLAzed

for whoever said we don't know actually how long Kobe has been putting in work at the gym, we don't need to know the exact hours. tidbits like this give us a pretty good idea of his work ethic and his devotion to basketball. This is from today, and it's Tom Thibodeau saying this.

"You could just tell [that Bryant was special]. The way he would study everything. [It was] amazing for a high school kid."

"He was a high school kid, and if he had a day off from school he'd be in the gym from eight in the morning till eight at night. And he was trying to play against the pros and watch everything and lift weights."

Having been around basketball most of his life, Thibodeau knew what he was seeing.

no one should question kobe's work ethic.. i think that is something we all can agree on, that dude works hard.. hell, i think we all agree that kobe is top 10 ever..

the problem is kobe homers can't take you questioning him on anything.. just as bad as damn cowboys' fans on this board



seriously, let's take a look at the things kobe fans will make excuses for him for:

1) he missed the playoffs when he had butler and odom on his team (dwayne wade in his rookie season was able to get to the 2nd round with those 2)

2) he lost 2 finals appearances

3) his stats go down across the board when the playoffs come

4) his shooting percentages go down in the playoffs

5) his best statistical years were when his team didn't make the playoffs and lost in the 1st round twice

6) his coach wrote a book which discussed his "issues"

7) we have blatant examples of him quitting on his team

he demanded a trade from his team

9) when he got in trouble, he ratted out a teammate as if it would save his ***

but yet, you guys want us to seriously believe that we are crazy for wanting to take other players over him

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

Originally Posted by Just bLAzed

for whoever said we don't know actually how long Kobe has been putting in work at the gym, we don't need to know the exact hours. tidbits like this give us a pretty good idea of his work ethic and his devotion to basketball. This is from today, and it's Tom Thibodeau saying this.

"You could just tell [that Bryant was special]. The way he would study everything. [It was] amazing for a high school kid."

"He was a high school kid, and if he had a day off from school he'd be in the gym from eight in the morning till eight at night. And he was trying to play against the pros and watch everything and lift weights."

Having been around basketball most of his life, Thibodeau knew what he was seeing.

no one should question kobe's work ethic.. i think that is something we all can agree on, that dude works hard.. hell, i think we all agree that kobe is top 10 ever..

the problem is kobe homers can't take you questioning him on anything.. just as bad as damn cowboys' fans on this board



seriously, let's take a look at the things kobe fans will make excuses for him for:

1) he missed the playoffs when he had butler and odom on his team (dwayne wade in his rookie season was able to get to the 2nd round with those 2)

2) he lost 2 finals appearances

3) his stats go down across the board when the playoffs come

4) his shooting percentages go down in the playoffs

5) his best statistical years were when his team didn't make the playoffs and lost in the 1st round twice

6) his coach wrote a book which discussed his "issues"

7) we have blatant examples of him quitting on his team

he demanded a trade from his team

9) when he got in trouble, he ratted out a teammate as if it would save his ***

but yet, you guys want us to seriously believe that we are crazy for wanting to take other players over him



I agree to a certain extent that Kobe fans are almost always never critical of Kobe but your off base with the majority of your arguments.
If were comparing him to Magic, Bird and Kareem # 2 is meaningless since they all lost 2 finals appearences. #6, and #8, and #9 speak more so to him as a person. And if that is the debate then I want no parts of debating another persons actions as it relates to sports.
Dont bring me stuff like # 1 either cause look at the west and look at the east in those 2 seasons.
and you tell me what kind of legs that argument really stands on.
But like I said those are all things you can mention, however they arent always valid arguments. Thats the simple facts of the discussion
Do his playoff shooting percentages historically go down? Yup but look at Michael Jordans too.
do his percentages not go down?
Is Kobe a better player in the playoffs than he is during the regular season?
No he is virtually the same player.
Look at the actual stats
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html
Did Kobe quit on his team?
That is a matter of opinion. The 2 series that will be pointed to are series that the Lakers were not going to win, and its possible that with the direction of those 2 series that Kobe did in fact quit. Get over it Kobe is human.
Did Kobe demand a trade? Yup. Michael Jordan threatened to retire if the Bulls traded Scottie Pippen. Michael Jordan didnt have the guts to demand a trade in 1999 if you want to know my honest OPINION. He didnt have the guts to leave Chicago after having played for them the previous season.
In Michael Jordans best season 1987-1988, were the Bulls a legitimate threat to win a title? I didnt think so.
What this comes down to is if you really want to sit and debate Kobe VS Bird, Kareem and Magic actually debate that dont come into the thread and say that Kobe will never be Michael because that is just a product of your own collective bias.

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

Originally Posted by Just bLAzed

for whoever said we don't know actually how long Kobe has been putting in work at the gym, we don't need to know the exact hours. tidbits like this give us a pretty good idea of his work ethic and his devotion to basketball. This is from today, and it's Tom Thibodeau saying this.

"You could just tell [that Bryant was special]. The way he would study everything. [It was] amazing for a high school kid."

"He was a high school kid, and if he had a day off from school he'd be in the gym from eight in the morning till eight at night. And he was trying to play against the pros and watch everything and lift weights."

Having been around basketball most of his life, Thibodeau knew what he was seeing.

no one should question kobe's work ethic.. i think that is something we all can agree on, that dude works hard.. hell, i think we all agree that kobe is top 10 ever..

the problem is kobe homers can't take you questioning him on anything.. just as bad as damn cowboys' fans on this board



seriously, let's take a look at the things kobe fans will make excuses for him for:

1) he missed the playoffs when he had butler and odom on his team (dwayne wade in his rookie season was able to get to the 2nd round with those 2)

2) he lost 2 finals appearances

3) his stats go down across the board when the playoffs come

4) his shooting percentages go down in the playoffs

5) his best statistical years were when his team didn't make the playoffs and lost in the 1st round twice

6) his coach wrote a book which discussed his "issues"

7) we have blatant examples of him quitting on his team

he demanded a trade from his team

9) when he got in trouble, he ratted out a teammate as if it would save his ***

but yet, you guys want us to seriously believe that we are crazy for wanting to take other players over him



I agree to a certain extent that Kobe fans are almost always never critical of Kobe but your off base with the majority of your arguments.
If were comparing him to Magic, Bird and Kareem # 2 is meaningless since they all lost 2 finals appearences. #6, and #8, and #9 speak more so to him as a person. And if that is the debate then I want no parts of debating another persons actions as it relates to sports.
Dont bring me stuff like # 1 either cause look at the west and look at the east in those 2 seasons.
and you tell me what kind of legs that argument really stands on.
But like I said those are all things you can mention, however they arent always valid arguments. Thats the simple facts of the discussion
Do his playoff shooting percentages historically go down? Yup but look at Michael Jordans too.
do his percentages not go down?
Is Kobe a better player in the playoffs than he is during the regular season?
No he is virtually the same player.
Look at the actual stats
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html
Did Kobe quit on his team?
That is a matter of opinion. The 2 series that will be pointed to are series that the Lakers were not going to win, and its possible that with the direction of those 2 series that Kobe did in fact quit. Get over it Kobe is human.
Did Kobe demand a trade? Yup. Michael Jordan threatened to retire if the Bulls traded Scottie Pippen. Michael Jordan didnt have the guts to demand a trade in 1999 if you want to know my honest OPINION. He didnt have the guts to leave Chicago after having played for them the previous season.
In Michael Jordans best season 1987-1988, were the Bulls a legitimate threat to win a title? I didnt think so.
What this comes down to is if you really want to sit and debate Kobe VS Bird, Kareem and Magic actually debate that dont come into the thread and say that Kobe will never be Michael because that is just a product of your own collective bias.

 

[IATT]

^ i only bring those things up because it's a team sport..


imagine having to be his teammate after those sort of things happen

 

[IATT]

^ i only bring those things up because it's a team sport..


imagine having to be his teammate after those sort of things happen

 

[crobers 78]

Originally Posted by Girl thats Jules

kobe isnt on magic or birds level

he isnt as great as them

hes just a chucker with a great skill set

he doesnt make his teams better,he doesnt equal wins

but he will score a lot of points

he just needs to go down as one of the greatest scorers ever thats about it.

dude is already 31-32 and still doesnt know how to play the game

in his last playoffs in 2010 his coach phil jackson had to tell him twice in two different series (once in okc and once in boston) "kobe dont try to do too much"

could you ever imagine any coach having to tell this to magic or bird?





lets bring up some other fails from these last playoffs.



1. gettin shut down in the final minutes of that first game in okc. durant shutting him down.

2. taking a bad shot and missing that game winner agianst okc only to have pau clean it up.

3. taking a really bad shot against phoenix and missing the game winner only to have ron artest clean it up

4. game nba finals 7 debacle. why did he force up soooooo many bad shots? would an all time great player be that stupid? as great as magic bird and jordan were,they would have passed first,if they were shooting that bad. that was probably the worst shot selection in an important game,ever. look at this guy biggest game of his life and he keeps chucking. anyone of the greats i mentioned aboved would have became playmakers to help their teams win the game if their shot wasnt falling.

all that was this past playoffs.

sure he was great against utah,but jerry sloan will never double team,any chucker can put up numbers against utah.

and sure he was great against phoenix but phoenix has never played defense i dont even have to argue this point.



and we can go back further if you want

there was that game against orlando in the 2009 finals when he failed in the clutch and at the free throw line.

boston in 2008

detroit in 2004



he does deserve credit for winning two championships as the man on his team ('09 and '10)



but kobe doesnt equal wins.

if you're drafting a player to start a franchise and your goal is to win championships theres a good 10 players all time i would pick over kobe

jordan,magic,bird,kareem,russell,duncan,hakeem,shaq.

all these dudes can get you W's.

kobe always worries about his attempts and not the outcome of the game first.

as evident in his first dynasty. whenever kobe deferred to shaq the lakers steam rolled everybody,but when kobe jacked up a lot of shots they struggled or lost.

and dont think that because the lakers have won the last two championships that kobe knows how to play team ball now. they've simply won because they have the most talent.Boston got scared with that lil 8 point lead n handed the damn game over like some douche bags!

after game 7 in 2010 you guys should know that kobe is still a chucker.

   This guy really watches basketball! Bravo

 

[crobers 78]

Originally Posted by Girl thats Jules

kobe isnt on magic or birds level

he isnt as great as them

hes just a chucker with a great skill set

he doesnt make his teams better,he doesnt equal wins

but he will score a lot of points

he just needs to go down as one of the greatest scorers ever thats about it.

dude is already 31-32 and still doesnt know how to play the game

in his last playoffs in 2010 his coach phil jackson had to tell him twice in two different series (once in okc and once in boston) "kobe dont try to do too much"

could you ever imagine any coach having to tell this to magic or bird?





lets bring up some other fails from these last playoffs.



1. gettin shut down in the final minutes of that first game in okc. durant shutting him down.

2. taking a bad shot and missing that game winner agianst okc only to have pau clean it up.

3. taking a really bad shot against phoenix and missing the game winner only to have ron artest clean it up

4. game nba finals 7 debacle. why did he force up soooooo many bad shots? would an all time great player be that stupid? as great as magic bird and jordan were,they would have passed first,if they were shooting that bad. that was probably the worst shot selection in an important game,ever. look at this guy biggest game of his life and he keeps chucking. anyone of the greats i mentioned aboved would have became playmakers to help their teams win the game if their shot wasnt falling.

all that was this past playoffs.

sure he was great against utah,but jerry sloan will never double team,any chucker can put up numbers against utah.

and sure he was great against phoenix but phoenix has never played defense i dont even have to argue this point.



and we can go back further if you want

there was that game against orlando in the 2009 finals when he failed in the clutch and at the free throw line.

boston in 2008

detroit in 2004



he does deserve credit for winning two championships as the man on his team ('09 and '10)



but kobe doesnt equal wins.

if you're drafting a player to start a franchise and your goal is to win championships theres a good 10 players all time i would pick over kobe

jordan,magic,bird,kareem,russell,duncan,hakeem,shaq.

all these dudes can get you W's.

kobe always worries about his attempts and not the outcome of the game first.

as evident in his first dynasty. whenever kobe deferred to shaq the lakers steam rolled everybody,but when kobe jacked up a lot of shots they struggled or lost.

and dont think that because the lakers have won the last two championships that kobe knows how to play team ball now. they've simply won because they have the most talent.Boston got scared with that lil 8 point lead n handed the damn game over like some douche bags!

after game 7 in 2010 you guys should know that kobe is still a chucker.

   This guy really watches basketball! Bravo

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

^ i only bring those things up because it's a team sport..


imagine having to be his teammate after those sort of things happen

As far as sports and being a teammate of Kobe's goes the only thing I have an issue with is #8.
I have no issue with Kobe throwing Shaq under the bus, because when your that rich there are no morals

And that was the most brutally honest statement were ever going to hear from any athlete.
I should have just paid her off !
Tell me Michael Jordan doesnt wish that sometimes about the women he slept with on the road. Tell me Shaq doesnt wish that he hadnt been caught sleeping with Gilbert Arenas girl. He was wishing he had not put himself in that situation. And that was a messed up situation
I would only have an issue with #8 because it would speak to giving up on a franchise. But at the same time. If Kobe didnt have title # 4, and #5 and was still in LA it would be how the KG situation played out. And we know how Kevin feels about that.
  

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

^ i only bring those things up because it's a team sport..


imagine having to be his teammate after those sort of things happen

As far as sports and being a teammate of Kobe's goes the only thing I have an issue with is #8.
I have no issue with Kobe throwing Shaq under the bus, because when your that rich there are no morals

And that was the most brutally honest statement were ever going to hear from any athlete.
I should have just paid her off !
Tell me Michael Jordan doesnt wish that sometimes about the women he slept with on the road. Tell me Shaq doesnt wish that he hadnt been caught sleeping with Gilbert Arenas girl. He was wishing he had not put himself in that situation. And that was a messed up situation
I would only have an issue with #8 because it would speak to giving up on a franchise. But at the same time. If Kobe didnt have title # 4, and #5 and was still in LA it would be how the KG situation played out. And we know how Kevin feels about that.
  

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by gangsta207therevolution

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

^ i only bring those things up because it's a team sport..


imagine having to be his teammate after those sort of things happen

As far as sports and being a teammate of Kobe's goes the only thing I have an issue with is #8.
I have no issue with Kobe throwing Shaq under the bus, because when your that rich there are no morals

And that was the most brutally honest statement were ever going to hear from any athlete.
I should have just paid her off !
Tell me Michael Jordan doesnt wish that sometimes about the women he slept with on the road. Tell me Shaq doesnt wish that he hadnt been caught sleeping with Gilbert Arenas girl. He was wishing he had not put himself in that situation. And that was a messed up situation
I would only have an issue with #8 because it would speak to giving up on a franchise. But at the same time. If Kobe didnt have title # 4, and #5 and was still in LA it would be how the KG situation played out. And we know how Kevin feels about that.
  

we're talking about all-time great players.. so you have to factor in things like if you would want to spend a substantial amount of time around these ppl

if you're given the choice of being on a team with jordan, magic, bird, hakeem or duncan over kobe; you wouldn't? especially after you factor in the things done to his teammates, his team and what was said by his coach?



i'm sure they wish they paid off the girls.. but none of those guys went out and said 'shaq does this all the time' to the police..

seriously, if any of you have siblings you will understand this analogy.. what kobe did was like your brother/sister getting in trouble and then tattling on you hoping that it will get them out of trouble.. the problem is, IT DOESNT.. it just gets you in trouble too



that's why i said previously, maybe shaq.. just because he had a poor work ethic and every team he has left has been on bad terms.. so it's a toss up really between kobe and shaq to me

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by gangsta207therevolution

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime

^ i only bring those things up because it's a team sport..


imagine having to be his teammate after those sort of things happen

As far as sports and being a teammate of Kobe's goes the only thing I have an issue with is #8.
I have no issue with Kobe throwing Shaq under the bus, because when your that rich there are no morals

And that was the most brutally honest statement were ever going to hear from any athlete.
I should have just paid her off !
Tell me Michael Jordan doesnt wish that sometimes about the women he slept with on the road. Tell me Shaq doesnt wish that he hadnt been caught sleeping with Gilbert Arenas girl. He was wishing he had not put himself in that situation. And that was a messed up situation
I would only have an issue with #8 because it would speak to giving up on a franchise. But at the same time. If Kobe didnt have title # 4, and #5 and was still in LA it would be how the KG situation played out. And we know how Kevin feels about that.
  

we're talking about all-time great players.. so you have to factor in things like if you would want to spend a substantial amount of time around these ppl

if you're given the choice of being on a team with jordan, magic, bird, hakeem or duncan over kobe; you wouldn't? especially after you factor in the things done to his teammates, his team and what was said by his coach?



i'm sure they wish they paid off the girls.. but none of those guys went out and said 'shaq does this all the time' to the police..

seriously, if any of you have siblings you will understand this analogy.. what kobe did was like your brother/sister getting in trouble and then tattling on you hoping that it will get them out of trouble.. the problem is, IT DOESNT.. it just gets you in trouble too



that's why i said previously, maybe shaq.. just because he had a poor work ethic and every team he has left has been on bad terms.. so it's a toss up really between kobe and shaq to me

 

[ben roethlisberger]

Originally Posted by myshoegameheavy

the two best players to lace them up are mj & kb. period. everybody else is objective because they all had their flaws, and little areas where they lacked, but those two, had the least amount of minus' out of anybody. kobe the best from the west, mj the best from the east. u can round out the list with magic, bird, kareem, etc, however you like, but those top two spots are fixed.

Exactly. If MJ is in the drivers seat, Kobe is riding shotgun and nobody else is even allowed to sit in that car, unless its a stretch limo.

This whole "if he gets ring number 6" or "maybe when he retires" crap is bologna. Do the eye test, that's how I judge a player. I've never seen ANYBODY do what MJ and Kobe have done on the court, skills wise. People just love to hate on Kobe, I've never seen anything like it. Pretty damn amazing how strong the hate is imo.

 

[ben roethlisberger]

Originally Posted by myshoegameheavy

the two best players to lace them up are mj & kb. period. everybody else is objective because they all had their flaws, and little areas where they lacked, but those two, had the least amount of minus' out of anybody. kobe the best from the west, mj the best from the east. u can round out the list with magic, bird, kareem, etc, however you like, but those top two spots are fixed.

Exactly. If MJ is in the drivers seat, Kobe is riding shotgun and nobody else is even allowed to sit in that car, unless its a stretch limo.

This whole "if he gets ring number 6" or "maybe when he retires" crap is bologna. Do the eye test, that's how I judge a player. I've never seen ANYBODY do what MJ and Kobe have done on the court, skills wise. People just love to hate on Kobe, I've never seen anything like it. Pretty damn amazing how strong the hate is imo.

 

[CP1708]

Teammates were lining up to play with Jordan, so they could get punched out in practice. 

Mike was an angel off the court. 

Phil told Mike that they had enough talent on the team, that they could win without Mike having to score so much.  Mike said no, he would win scoring titles, AND actual titles.  Point being, Mike was as obsessed with his own numbers as any other player the game has seen. 

You don't think that behind closed doors when it was getting close to Doug Collins getting fired, Mike didn't tell Bulls brass that he would want out if they didn't get better?  We're all sure of this? 

Again, nobody is perfect.  We've all established that.  Not sure what Laker fans you refer too when talking about Kobe, but there are plenty of us that aknowldege his flaws.  But what are his flaws WITHIN the game?  That's what you should focus on, not his crap off the court.  But anyone who is great at what they do, and singularly driven to be great at that one thing are going to ruffle feathers when you're talking about a bunch of rich spoiled players that want to party and be with women and drink and all that.  Except for the occasion extra curricular white girl, Kobe didn't do any of that.  He focused on the game, and his craft only.  Hence, Kobe and Shaq not seeing eye to eye.  While Shaq was at the club, Kobe was at the gym.  That can be a positive for his performance, but a negative for his getting along with teammates.  No doubt there. 

You're also talkin about a kid at that time.  Early 20's, mature for his age, but maybe not so mature.  (if you get what I mean)  He acted like a brat fighting with Shaq all the time.  No doubt.  He EASILY could have diffused all that garbage by simply sayin nothing, and playing ball, but he kept giving quotes, kept talkin back, and causing problems.  Huge mistake.  But honestly, if you work as hard as that guy did, and you have the other guy takin MONTHS off at  time, then comin back and demanding the team be ran too his whim, after all the work Kobe has put in with the team, would you as a person be ok with that?  For one year maybe.  For two, maybe.  But EVERY year???? 

  Shaq did that crap too us ALL THE TIME.  Did he deserve to for all he had done?  Maybe, maybe he did.  Again though, every single year? 

  Kobe didn't need any of that, and to this day, STILL doesn't.   The guy plays hurt like no other.  He goes hard every game he plays, and people still want to question him, and call him a quitter?  Come on, know what you're talking about.  I already spoke out on the Phoenix series and his "quitting" which was complete bs.  That man was alone out there in that game 7.  Watch the tape.  ( I have)  That first half, he was 1 on 5, none of those other guys wanted any part of a game 7.  And it was sad to see. 

This last game 7, they were all there, they all fought.  And they did it with who as their leader?  Gonna come at me with Gasol?  Odom?  Ron?  Kobe was their leader, with Fish as their heart and soul.  Every play nowadays he goes to each player and they go over what they could, or should have done on a given play.  Teaching, learning, always pushing for MORE.  And when?  When he has grown up.  32 years old.  Maybe the light finally came on.  He was a failure as a leader before, but not so much now is he?  That team goes as he goes. 

For all the questions people ask, listen to the guys that play with him.  B Shaw.  Fox.  Horry.  Payton.  Ron Artest.  Fish.  Pau. Odom.   Listen to those guys speak on him AS A PLAYER.  They speak VERY highly of him.  Who doesn't?  The fat lazy guy that bad mouths every single ex teammate he has.  Yeah, trust his opinion. 

  He's a great teammate. 

Kobe shoots too much in stretches, he tries to do way too much at times.  Ever listen to why he does that?  He KNOWS the work he has put in as a player, some of his teamamtes before, he didn't know how much THEY worked on their game.  So why trust them to get the job done, when you trust yourself?  That may not be the best way to go about things, but it does have some merit to it, does it not?  In my opinion, Lebron James does not work hard at his craft, but everyone loves being around him, and being his teammate.....he and his teams have a lot of postseason success to speak of? 

  Think maybe one has a better way of going about things? 

*shrugs*  I for one have no prob admitting Kobe's flaws.  He has several.  But what I do is trust that he works hard enough, to overcome those flaws, and guide my favorite team where I want them to go.  I don't have that faith in Shaq.  I did have that faith with Magic as well.  I'm sure Celts fans had that in Bird, I bet Spurs fans do with Duncan.  But in 3-4 years, when we tally up the resumes, I suspect someone's is going to stand out just a bit more.  Then I don't think I will have to argue much anymore.......


Who am I kidding, haters gon hate this guy forever. 

 

[CP1708]

Teammates were lining up to play with Jordan, so they could get punched out in practice. 

Mike was an angel off the court. 

Phil told Mike that they had enough talent on the team, that they could win without Mike having to score so much.  Mike said no, he would win scoring titles, AND actual titles.  Point being, Mike was as obsessed with his own numbers as any other player the game has seen. 

You don't think that behind closed doors when it was getting close to Doug Collins getting fired, Mike didn't tell Bulls brass that he would want out if they didn't get better?  We're all sure of this? 

Again, nobody is perfect.  We've all established that.  Not sure what Laker fans you refer too when talking about Kobe, but there are plenty of us that aknowldege his flaws.  But what are his flaws WITHIN the game?  That's what you should focus on, not his crap off the court.  But anyone who is great at what they do, and singularly driven to be great at that one thing are going to ruffle feathers when you're talking about a bunch of rich spoiled players that want to party and be with women and drink and all that.  Except for the occasion extra curricular white girl, Kobe didn't do any of that.  He focused on the game, and his craft only.  Hence, Kobe and Shaq not seeing eye to eye.  While Shaq was at the club, Kobe was at the gym.  That can be a positive for his performance, but a negative for his getting along with teammates.  No doubt there. 

You're also talkin about a kid at that time.  Early 20's, mature for his age, but maybe not so mature.  (if you get what I mean)  He acted like a brat fighting with Shaq all the time.  No doubt.  He EASILY could have diffused all that garbage by simply sayin nothing, and playing ball, but he kept giving quotes, kept talkin back, and causing problems.  Huge mistake.  But honestly, if you work as hard as that guy did, and you have the other guy takin MONTHS off at  time, then comin back and demanding the team be ran too his whim, after all the work Kobe has put in with the team, would you as a person be ok with that?  For one year maybe.  For two, maybe.  But EVERY year???? 

  Shaq did that crap too us ALL THE TIME.  Did he deserve to for all he had done?  Maybe, maybe he did.  Again though, every single year? 

  Kobe didn't need any of that, and to this day, STILL doesn't.   The guy plays hurt like no other.  He goes hard every game he plays, and people still want to question him, and call him a quitter?  Come on, know what you're talking about.  I already spoke out on the Phoenix series and his "quitting" which was complete bs.  That man was alone out there in that game 7.  Watch the tape.  ( I have)  That first half, he was 1 on 5, none of those other guys wanted any part of a game 7.  And it was sad to see. 

This last game 7, they were all there, they all fought.  And they did it with who as their leader?  Gonna come at me with Gasol?  Odom?  Ron?  Kobe was their leader, with Fish as their heart and soul.  Every play nowadays he goes to each player and they go over what they could, or should have done on a given play.  Teaching, learning, always pushing for MORE.  And when?  When he has grown up.  32 years old.  Maybe the light finally came on.  He was a failure as a leader before, but not so much now is he?  That team goes as he goes. 

For all the questions people ask, listen to the guys that play with him.  B Shaw.  Fox.  Horry.  Payton.  Ron Artest.  Fish.  Pau. Odom.   Listen to those guys speak on him AS A PLAYER.  They speak VERY highly of him.  Who doesn't?  The fat lazy guy that bad mouths every single ex teammate he has.  Yeah, trust his opinion. 

  He's a great teammate. 

Kobe shoots too much in stretches, he tries to do way too much at times.  Ever listen to why he does that?  He KNOWS the work he has put in as a player, some of his teamamtes before, he didn't know how much THEY worked on their game.  So why trust them to get the job done, when you trust yourself?  That may not be the best way to go about things, but it does have some merit to it, does it not?  In my opinion, Lebron James does not work hard at his craft, but everyone loves being around him, and being his teammate.....he and his teams have a lot of postseason success to speak of? 

  Think maybe one has a better way of going about things? 

*shrugs*  I for one have no prob admitting Kobe's flaws.  He has several.  But what I do is trust that he works hard enough, to overcome those flaws, and guide my favorite team where I want them to go.  I don't have that faith in Shaq.  I did have that faith with Magic as well.  I'm sure Celts fans had that in Bird, I bet Spurs fans do with Duncan.  But in 3-4 years, when we tally up the resumes, I suspect someone's is going to stand out just a bit more.  Then I don't think I will have to argue much anymore.......


Who am I kidding, haters gon hate this guy forever. 

 

[vanillafreak13]

I still don't understand how

"he ain't MJ" automatically means he is or isn't in the top 5?

I see the argument for Kobe being great, but why is he better than Kareem, Wilt, Bill or Big O?

BTW I"m still putting him at 5 behind MJ, Bill, Kareem and a player of my choosing to be determined.

 

[vanillafreak13]

I still don't understand how

"he ain't MJ" automatically means he is or isn't in the top 5?

I see the argument for Kobe being great, but why is he better than Kareem, Wilt, Bill or Big O?

BTW I"m still putting him at 5 behind MJ, Bill, Kareem and a player of my choosing to be determined.

 

[IATT]

^ so you're saying that kobe's teammates quit on him? who else on that list can you make that statement about?


I'm just glad you admit dude got issues.. and since you have admitted that he has/had some SERIOUS issues that we know about and you want to speculate on other players.. why don't you speculate about kobe? do you really believe that the mistakes we know, are his only mistakes?!?!


and i never claimed anyone was a saint.. my biggest problems with him are him throwing a teammate under the bus and the way he deals with criticism.. if anyone says he shoots too much, dude turns around and doesn't shoot AT ALL

hypothetically speaking.. if they had given the finals MVP award to gasol instead of kobe, what do you think his reaction would have been? (since we have an example with duncan, when they gave it to parker)


and resumes don't always tell the whole story.. see peyton manning.. would you take manning over elway, montana, young or even brady?




when comparing him to the players I named.. I am def factoring in all of those things..



and i assume if you put any 1 of the players I named on the 00-03 lakers champhionship teams and removed kobe.. the lakers would still have won



for easy reference.. i said i would take the following over kobe: jordan, bird, magic, duncan and hakeem
(i didn't watch oscar, russell or wilt.. and only saw kareem late in his career.. so i excluded them)

 

[IATT]

^ so you're saying that kobe's teammates quit on him? who else on that list can you make that statement about?


I'm just glad you admit dude got issues.. and since you have admitted that he has/had some SERIOUS issues that we know about and you want to speculate on other players.. why don't you speculate about kobe? do you really believe that the mistakes we know, are his only mistakes?!?!


and i never claimed anyone was a saint.. my biggest problems with him are him throwing a teammate under the bus and the way he deals with criticism.. if anyone says he shoots too much, dude turns around and doesn't shoot AT ALL

hypothetically speaking.. if they had given the finals MVP award to gasol instead of kobe, what do you think his reaction would have been? (since we have an example with duncan, when they gave it to parker)


and resumes don't always tell the whole story.. see peyton manning.. would you take manning over elway, montana, young or even brady?




when comparing him to the players I named.. I am def factoring in all of those things..



and i assume if you put any 1 of the players I named on the 00-03 lakers champhionship teams and removed kobe.. the lakers would still have won



for easy reference.. i said i would take the following over kobe: jordan, bird, magic, duncan and hakeem
(i didn't watch oscar, russell or wilt.. and only saw kareem late in his career.. so i excluded them)

 

[IATT]

i should note.. if we're talking about a 1 on 1 game.. then i would move kobe ahead of magic and maybe bird


unfortunately we're talking about a team game, soo i'm taking those guys THEN him

 

[IATT]

i should note.. if we're talking about a 1 on 1 game.. then i would move kobe ahead of magic and maybe bird


unfortunately we're talking about a team game, soo i'm taking those guys THEN him

 

[CP1708]

Well, first you can't take Kobe off and put someone else in.  Switching Magic for Kobe don't work man.  Nor Bird.  Mike yes, they play the same spot, but the others no.  Duncan and Shaq wouldn't have gotten along on the blocks together anyways, it wouldn't have worked.  David worked because he could shoot outside, as well as Dunc, Shaq couldn't do that. 

And trust me, I don't think you want to talk Peyton Manning with me.  Ask around. 

I think in terms of Kobe issues, other then Colorado, and Shaq, he really hasn't had much else, until the summer of 08 when he was pissed that we hadn't improved.  He gave 3 years of his prime for us to suck because Mitch and his process was taking too long.  (not all Mitch's fault imo, Rudy T quit on them, Phil had to come back, that changed things)  Phil is the one that moved Caron for Kwame.  (his blessing at least)  They wanted more size.  Instead of taking a college junior or senior in the draft, they took a 17 year old center.  That takes time.  Possibly a college kid wouldn't have.  So Kobe waited and waited, and nothing was going right. 

But then Fisher landed in their lap.  Bynum worked hard and improved.  Farmar came around.  Sasha improved (slightly)  and Odom was always "solid" just not all that consistent.  So they were on their way.  Then Mitch got Ariza, and of course Gasol came.  So back to the point, Kobe had that one summer he was pissed, other then that, Shaq, and colorado, he hasn't done too much else (that we know of) 

I know he got into it with Ron Artest, and a few months later, Ron wanted to be on his team.  I know Kobe got into it with Matt Barnes, and a few months later, he was on his team.  Guys that battle him, respect him and his game enough to come play with him, that has to say something. 

Can you think of someone, OTHER then Shaq, that has said bad things about Kobe?  Any other teammates that laced out about him?  Surely somebody would have said something if he was such a bad teammate, right?  Even Samaki Walker ain't said nothin bad about him, and Kobe dotted his eye for owin Kobe money. 

  ( I guess that's another issue also to add)


If Gasol gets the MVP, I don't think Kobe cares.  It was a title.  Why care?  Would he have been mad privately?  Yes, probably.  He's a competitor.  It's his team, he's the face of the Laker franchise, I'm sure it would have upset him inside, but show it and freak and dwell about it, with a trophy in his hands?  I dunno about that.  Woulda been interesting though. 

 

[CP1708]

Well, first you can't take Kobe off and put someone else in.  Switching Magic for Kobe don't work man.  Nor Bird.  Mike yes, they play the same spot, but the others no.  Duncan and Shaq wouldn't have gotten along on the blocks together anyways, it wouldn't have worked.  David worked because he could shoot outside, as well as Dunc, Shaq couldn't do that. 

And trust me, I don't think you want to talk Peyton Manning with me.  Ask around. 

I think in terms of Kobe issues, other then Colorado, and Shaq, he really hasn't had much else, until the summer of 08 when he was pissed that we hadn't improved.  He gave 3 years of his prime for us to suck because Mitch and his process was taking too long.  (not all Mitch's fault imo, Rudy T quit on them, Phil had to come back, that changed things)  Phil is the one that moved Caron for Kwame.  (his blessing at least)  They wanted more size.  Instead of taking a college junior or senior in the draft, they took a 17 year old center.  That takes time.  Possibly a college kid wouldn't have.  So Kobe waited and waited, and nothing was going right. 

But then Fisher landed in their lap.  Bynum worked hard and improved.  Farmar came around.  Sasha improved (slightly)  and Odom was always "solid" just not all that consistent.  So they were on their way.  Then Mitch got Ariza, and of course Gasol came.  So back to the point, Kobe had that one summer he was pissed, other then that, Shaq, and colorado, he hasn't done too much else (that we know of) 

I know he got into it with Ron Artest, and a few months later, Ron wanted to be on his team.  I know Kobe got into it with Matt Barnes, and a few months later, he was on his team.  Guys that battle him, respect him and his game enough to come play with him, that has to say something. 

Can you think of someone, OTHER then Shaq, that has said bad things about Kobe?  Any other teammates that laced out about him?  Surely somebody would have said something if he was such a bad teammate, right?  Even Samaki Walker ain't said nothin bad about him, and Kobe dotted his eye for owin Kobe money. 

  ( I guess that's another issue also to add)


If Gasol gets the MVP, I don't think Kobe cares.  It was a title.  Why care?  Would he have been mad privately?  Yes, probably.  He's a competitor.  It's his team, he's the face of the Laker franchise, I'm sure it would have upset him inside, but show it and freak and dwell about it, with a trophy in his hands?  I dunno about that.  Woulda been interesting though. 

 

[IATT]

^ phil's book doesn't count?