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This is crazy.. what if a black guy wrote the reversal?
Forbes article if I was a poor black kid
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Everyone saw the rebuttal right? Too funny.
sillyputty
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The funny part is that I completely agree with all of you. I understand the whole "perspective" thing, even though its a completely flawed argument.
You all are using it to mask your lack of an actual point or solution to this problem.
You all aren't reading what i'm saying. I get all of your arguments. I'm a black male who has seen AND experienced some of those things...
But I care more about results than complaining about system-wide problems.
Everyone wants to play the reactionary card instead of actually offering their own suggestions.
Not one person critical of the article besides MAYBE Curb, since hes an educator, has any literal or hypothetical solution.
Theres nothing wrong with a little grassroots motivation either.
But nothing any of you is saying helps these kids RIGHT NOW...as in THIS MORNING as some of them head off to school, more than those tips.
We can talk about how crappy the system is until we're blue in the face, but NONE of that helps kids THIS MORNING.
I keep asking for solutions and what is everyone's answer? ...listing more problems.
You all are using it to mask your lack of an actual point or solution to this problem.
You all aren't reading what i'm saying. I get all of your arguments. I'm a black male who has seen AND experienced some of those things...
But I care more about results than complaining about system-wide problems.
Everyone wants to play the reactionary card instead of actually offering their own suggestions.
Not one person critical of the article besides MAYBE Curb, since hes an educator, has any literal or hypothetical solution.
Theres nothing wrong with a little grassroots motivation either.
But nothing any of you is saying helps these kids RIGHT NOW...as in THIS MORNING as some of them head off to school, more than those tips.
We can talk about how crappy the system is until we're blue in the face, but NONE of that helps kids THIS MORNING.
I keep asking for solutions and what is everyone's answer? ...listing more problems.
curbyourenthusiasm
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for the record, ive worked in public schools directly with low-performing children in one-on-one situations for three years now....a job i took over 2 other jobs that paid almost double.
so, silly, according to you i CAN criticize this article cause i AM doing SOMETHING bro
way more than this arrogant prick pretends to be.
silly, youre still confused on what my point is.
nobody is saying "learn how to read" is bad advice
but when you're in a broken home where you are forced to take on adult responsibilities, reading may NOT be the top priority to a number of PEOPLE
not black kids
kids in general.
another fascenating fact is that evey example ive used except for the "putting out their crackhead mother's stem from catching the matress on fire"
IS A REAL LIFE EXAMPLE FROM A CHILD I HAVE WORKED WITH
even more shocking? the school was 90% white.....these are all white kids
there are two who were black, one was mentally ******ed and not diagnosed, he had his breakfast taken away for punishment, the lunch lady not realizing he doesnt eat outside of school...i.e. on weekends
the other black kid was somali, and his older brothers would beat him up and throw his books in dumpsters...rip up his homework, etc.
its funny that dudes who just wanna argue for the sake of arguing will come in here and tell me "these are extremes"
i called you out on that before you did it famlay
i already knew the only come back for these offerings of perspective was 'excuses excuses" or "those are extremes"
the sad *%@% is, they arent extremes.
again, noone will address my only point and criticism of the paper
not even the mighty silly putty can explain it to me
how can someone advise people on how to successfully navigate something they are completely oblivious to....
makes absolutely no sense.
no criticism of me as a person and what im "doing" or what "solutions" im "offering" change that fact
no hypothetical situation in which a black person was so clueless as to the black experience they would write something this ridiculous will change that fact
so, silly, according to you i CAN criticize this article cause i AM doing SOMETHING bro
way more than this arrogant prick pretends to be.
silly, youre still confused on what my point is.
nobody is saying "learn how to read" is bad advice
but when you're in a broken home where you are forced to take on adult responsibilities, reading may NOT be the top priority to a number of PEOPLE
not black kids
kids in general.
another fascenating fact is that evey example ive used except for the "putting out their crackhead mother's stem from catching the matress on fire"
IS A REAL LIFE EXAMPLE FROM A CHILD I HAVE WORKED WITH
even more shocking? the school was 90% white.....these are all white kids
there are two who were black, one was mentally ******ed and not diagnosed, he had his breakfast taken away for punishment, the lunch lady not realizing he doesnt eat outside of school...i.e. on weekends
the other black kid was somali, and his older brothers would beat him up and throw his books in dumpsters...rip up his homework, etc.
its funny that dudes who just wanna argue for the sake of arguing will come in here and tell me "these are extremes"
i called you out on that before you did it famlay
i already knew the only come back for these offerings of perspective was 'excuses excuses" or "those are extremes"
the sad *%@% is, they arent extremes.
again, noone will address my only point and criticism of the paper
not even the mighty silly putty can explain it to me
how can someone advise people on how to successfully navigate something they are completely oblivious to....
makes absolutely no sense.
no criticism of me as a person and what im "doing" or what "solutions" im "offering" change that fact
no hypothetical situation in which a black person was so clueless as to the black experience they would write something this ridiculous will change that fact
You all are using it to mask your lack of an actual point or solution to this problem.
what you dont understand is, we're giving an opinion on his opinion peice...
nobody needs to come up with better solutions dude
you're morphing our argument into one that we're not making
nobody said "focus on reading" is a bad idea or bad advice
"focus on reading" is laughable, ignorant advice given by someone who doesnt fully understand what "focus on reading" TRUELY means for the population in which he's "educating"
again
how can a man teach poor black kids how to successfully escape the ills of the ghetto......and he's completely oblivious to what a "ghetto" actually is? he doesnt even know what it REALLY means to be a "poor black kid".......
how can you not see the ridiculous nature of such things?
this is just as bad as religious logic and reason
you seem to give his ignorance and utter cluelessness a pass because HE ADMITS IT
"i dont know much about the bible, but, if you're just really nice to people jesus will save your soul"
"i dont know much about the hood, but if you read alot youll make it out"
and my actual problem with the article is the tone that continues
"and if you dont try hard and make it out from a 10x deficit, you're lazy and subhuman and deserve to be where you're at"
"i know you have to work 20 times harder than my child just to be average in this society, HOWEVER, if you dont do it, dont cry to me about being automatically 20 times behind us.....dont even mention it to us when we pretend to act like it doesnt exist......you deserve to be 20 times behind us if you arent willing to try really hard and hope your .00002 % chance magically works out"
thats basically what i read when i read his article.
curbyourenthusiasm
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by the way,
when criticizing someone for criticizing something, it is not a valid criticism to say "well, what is YOUR idea?"
because thats a completely separate train of thought with separate logic and reason
its really a sad attempt at hiding your weak argument FOR this article...
"well, you dont have a solution better than "try harder" what are YOU doing?"
lmao as if i have to do anything to find fault with this article.
how about i'm an English major who spent time in editorial departments........speaking from THAT authority
this is a poor article
speaking from the authority of someone who works with this very population of children daily (not to mention i AM one of those very children.......who made it)......
this article is poor
so dont try to shift the focus from this poor #%@ article to my credibility in criticizing this article
cause i got stripes, b
(not that its even relevant to the criticism of the article)
but i got em.
$%!% it
you want a solution?
how about we adopt the idea of teaching kids the difference between their LANGUAGE (yes, they speak their own language) and the standard that we want them to learn for academic purposes?
i really have no idea how all these school districts are at the end of their rope with black youth
cant teach them
and they wont even TRY treating inner city kids as ESL
meanwhile, let a child come from, oh no, A DIFFERENT COUNTRY AND COME HERE ON THEIR OWN AND MAKE IT SUCCESSFULLY, he has 3 teachers and an aide teaching him one-on-one....ESL instruction....in and out of the classroom accomodations
i know this idea is radical......but a radical idea is far superior than a cliche "work harder"
they found, in oakland, test scores and english comprehension SKYROCKETED when treating these children as ESL kids
thats a very simple, practical idea that would help kids TODAY
but keep sucking off this dude who has no idea what he's talking about tho
what about a coop with a suburban school district in which each student is paired with an inner-city partner
they create a mentor/mentee relationship thats fluid....the poor kid might take the suburban kid on a tour of the city he's not allowed to travel to....maybe the public museum downtown or what not
the suburban kid can provide perspective through interaction with the poor kid....take him out of the hood once a month to study in the suburbs
but that would require the type of guy who wrote this article to DO SOMETHING
to actually interact with a "poor black kid"
please, he wouldnt want the stains on his carpet
LMAO
defend him more tho.
when criticizing someone for criticizing something, it is not a valid criticism to say "well, what is YOUR idea?"
because thats a completely separate train of thought with separate logic and reason
its really a sad attempt at hiding your weak argument FOR this article...
"well, you dont have a solution better than "try harder" what are YOU doing?"
lmao as if i have to do anything to find fault with this article.
how about i'm an English major who spent time in editorial departments........speaking from THAT authority
this is a poor article
speaking from the authority of someone who works with this very population of children daily (not to mention i AM one of those very children.......who made it)......
this article is poor
so dont try to shift the focus from this poor #%@ article to my credibility in criticizing this article
cause i got stripes, b
(not that its even relevant to the criticism of the article)
but i got em.
$%!% it
you want a solution?
how about we adopt the idea of teaching kids the difference between their LANGUAGE (yes, they speak their own language) and the standard that we want them to learn for academic purposes?
i really have no idea how all these school districts are at the end of their rope with black youth
cant teach them
and they wont even TRY treating inner city kids as ESL
meanwhile, let a child come from, oh no, A DIFFERENT COUNTRY AND COME HERE ON THEIR OWN AND MAKE IT SUCCESSFULLY, he has 3 teachers and an aide teaching him one-on-one....ESL instruction....in and out of the classroom accomodations
i know this idea is radical......but a radical idea is far superior than a cliche "work harder"
they found, in oakland, test scores and english comprehension SKYROCKETED when treating these children as ESL kids
thats a very simple, practical idea that would help kids TODAY
but keep sucking off this dude who has no idea what he's talking about tho
what about a coop with a suburban school district in which each student is paired with an inner-city partner
they create a mentor/mentee relationship thats fluid....the poor kid might take the suburban kid on a tour of the city he's not allowed to travel to....maybe the public museum downtown or what not
the suburban kid can provide perspective through interaction with the poor kid....take him out of the hood once a month to study in the suburbs
but that would require the type of guy who wrote this article to DO SOMETHING
to actually interact with a "poor black kid"
please, he wouldnt want the stains on his carpet
LMAO
defend him more tho.
curbyourenthusiasm
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i still like my "richard simmons giving advice on how to please a woman sexually" better tho
curbyourenthusiasm
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nah, post it finns
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I never realized inner city kids function on their own language -that we brush off as english. Anyways, Gene Marks is going to put out another article that is going to follow up to this on Monday. Keep an eye out!!
curbyourenthusiasm
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lmao, see? see how hard it is to offer real solutions that would impact black kids?
whats the harm in treating them as ESL kids?
you guys love to say how people come from other countries not even knowing english and pass black people daily....
why not give black kids the same opportunity as a mexican who cant speak english?
i mean, the goal is to improve reading for black kids, right?
LMAO
but yeah, its a joke to give them more attention
they need to "try harder" right?
right.
(when people make responses like that, it shows YOUR ignorance. research standard language ideologies, then research what language is, linguistically and socially, THEN apply that to the population in question; poor black kids. THEN laugh at the idea of treating kids who are well below the state standard in ENGLISH and READING getting extra accomodations like MEXICAN CHILDREN WHO DONT EVEN SPEAK ENGLISH get....)
i know, its madd far fetched to offer poor black kids any help besides "try harder, bum"
laughable, even
whats the harm in treating them as ESL kids?
you guys love to say how people come from other countries not even knowing english and pass black people daily....
why not give black kids the same opportunity as a mexican who cant speak english?
i mean, the goal is to improve reading for black kids, right?
LMAO
but yeah, its a joke to give them more attention
they need to "try harder" right?
right.
(when people make responses like that, it shows YOUR ignorance. research standard language ideologies, then research what language is, linguistically and socially, THEN apply that to the population in question; poor black kids. THEN laugh at the idea of treating kids who are well below the state standard in ENGLISH and READING getting extra accomodations like MEXICAN CHILDREN WHO DONT EVEN SPEAK ENGLISH get....)
i know, its madd far fetched to offer poor black kids any help besides "try harder, bum"
laughable, even
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Who have you made these suggestions to? Who do I need to pass these ideas to?
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So nobody who isn't a poor minority is considered credible for helping poor minorities not stay poor minorities?
... [color= rgb(51, 51, 51)]
[/color]
I think we found the real problem.
I think we found the real problem.
curbyourenthusiasm
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sorry, this kind of sarcasm just makes you look even dumber
i work directly with kids and do it on my own already.
thanks tho
So nobody who isn't a poor minority is considered credible for helping poor minorities not stay poor minorities?
...
I think we found the real problem.
yeah, cause i said that.
arent you a lawyer?
this kind of logic from you on the job would result in your termination.
reread what i've typed then come back.
sillyputty
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You took the article COMPLETELY differently.
He KNOWS what a fire cracker issue this is and he spends nearly 1/3 of the time defending himself and prepping for the backlash...and he STILL does t.
So clearly he knows what hes getting himself in to...
Yet the fact remains, YOU DO NOT SEE ANYTHING HE SAID AS BAD ADVICE.
I've seen kids GIVE UP just because of their environment, not that they were incapable or hindered in any way. They figure that since the world has it out for them that they would rather not try at all.
I've tutored kids in the hoods east and westside hoods of ATL for the past 4-5 years regularly.
I know what I'm talking about here too.
The fact again is....look at the solution you offered... That doesn't help that kid TONIGHT.
Lets face it your "solution" isn't giving that kid a couple more places to look for help RIGHT NOW.
You want to wait until your program gets off the ground. That would take MONTHS of planning. Not that its a bad idea, or even that it won't work. I'm sure you would put all your effort into it. But at the same time once again, how does that help kids TONIGHT?
You say its not that easy...SO WHAT? They're already in the hood? They're already in crappy schools. They're already dealing with more stuff than most white kids do before they're 18.
WE GET IT ALREADY.
I don't know if you think I do...but I DO.
Its not easy. Its not easy. ITS NOT EASY.
Now what?
All you're doing is talking about situations where the odds are stacked against them.
Do you have anything else to say?
"They eat horrible lunches!" ...ok, how does that help the student TONIGHT?
"Well they dodge drug dealers on the way home from school!" ....ok how does that help the student TONIGHT?
"they have limited access to resources!"....ok how does that help the student TONIGHT?
We ALL KNOW THE PROBLEMS...but this author lists more solutions that every single one of you does.
In 11 pages, Curb was the ONLY one to list a solution outside of this article. That was the ONLY piece of advice to come out of this whole discussion.
You all are posers. Through and through.
Complaining is as far as the road goes for you all.
Listing problems is closest ANY of you all get to making any change.
You all can play "fake offended" all you want. Acting like this boosts your internal morality to actually have an opinion on these things.
*GASP* this white guy with money tried to comment on poor black people!
The audacity of that white devil! How dare he try to help! How dare he look beyond obvious and glaring circumstances!
The gall and pretentiousness!
The rest of the world is angry...so lets be angry too! I've been taught to take race seriously! Rawr rawr rawr!
Then comes the calvary: Race, culture, oppression, history, statistics, sociology 101 students, philosophy grad students, etc.
YOU DONT GET IT MAN, YOU CAN'T COMMENT ON US!
Then when we ask, well what SHOULD we do?
Crickets.
Silence.
Blank stares.
You all can't think about what you'll do when the dust settles next week and no one is even talking about this article.
You all get your progressive quote of the day in and bounce.
WE NEED TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM!
YEAH MAN THAT SYSTEM OF A BUNCH OF INTERCONNECTED AND COMPLEX THINGS...YEAH CHANGE THE WHOLE THING!
What are we left with?
Underpaid teachers who struggle day in and day out.
Barely surviving non-profit workers.
Congressmen who don't give a damn...and if you're lucky to live in an area that has a member that actually looks at educational issues, you MIGHT get a few more dollars or press apperances.
Legislation that moves at a snails pace...and once it even gets passed, addresses NOTHING.
You wake up to that same slow... agonizing death of black kids who struggled to get to school just as much as they did yesterday...
But reinforcing that nothing is too difficult...that nothing is out of their reach...that they will have to work harder and sacrifice more to get even an average life... that no odds are too great...
...is a bad thing.
A handful of websites...(no matter how tactless the delivery)... the suggestion to learn a skill, and to meet the right people...is an outrageous claim suddenly.
Ask yourself.
If you're a poor black kid who is dodging gang activity, trying to put food on the table, I have no jump shot and i'm too little to play football. Basically a kid who faces all those obstacles...
I still want to break out of the system however...
The world isn't changing fast enough for me and I need options.
What is the standard I have to meet and the process for me get out of the hood without doing anything illegal?
He KNOWS what a fire cracker issue this is and he spends nearly 1/3 of the time defending himself and prepping for the backlash...and he STILL does t.
So clearly he knows what hes getting himself in to...
Yet the fact remains, YOU DO NOT SEE ANYTHING HE SAID AS BAD ADVICE.
I've seen kids GIVE UP just because of their environment, not that they were incapable or hindered in any way. They figure that since the world has it out for them that they would rather not try at all.
I've tutored kids in the hoods east and westside hoods of ATL for the past 4-5 years regularly.
I know what I'm talking about here too.
The fact again is....look at the solution you offered... That doesn't help that kid TONIGHT.
Lets face it your "solution" isn't giving that kid a couple more places to look for help RIGHT NOW.
You want to wait until your program gets off the ground. That would take MONTHS of planning. Not that its a bad idea, or even that it won't work. I'm sure you would put all your effort into it. But at the same time once again, how does that help kids TONIGHT?
You say its not that easy...SO WHAT? They're already in the hood? They're already in crappy schools. They're already dealing with more stuff than most white kids do before they're 18.
WE GET IT ALREADY.
I don't know if you think I do...but I DO.
Its not easy. Its not easy. ITS NOT EASY.
Now what?
All you're doing is talking about situations where the odds are stacked against them.
Do you have anything else to say?
"They eat horrible lunches!" ...ok, how does that help the student TONIGHT?
"Well they dodge drug dealers on the way home from school!" ....ok how does that help the student TONIGHT?
"they have limited access to resources!"....ok how does that help the student TONIGHT?
We ALL KNOW THE PROBLEMS...but this author lists more solutions that every single one of you does.
In 11 pages, Curb was the ONLY one to list a solution outside of this article. That was the ONLY piece of advice to come out of this whole discussion.
You all are posers. Through and through.
Complaining is as far as the road goes for you all.
Listing problems is closest ANY of you all get to making any change.
You all can play "fake offended" all you want. Acting like this boosts your internal morality to actually have an opinion on these things.
*GASP* this white guy with money tried to comment on poor black people!
The audacity of that white devil! How dare he try to help! How dare he look beyond obvious and glaring circumstances!
The gall and pretentiousness!
The rest of the world is angry...so lets be angry too! I've been taught to take race seriously! Rawr rawr rawr!
Then comes the calvary: Race, culture, oppression, history, statistics, sociology 101 students, philosophy grad students, etc.
YOU DONT GET IT MAN, YOU CAN'T COMMENT ON US!
Then when we ask, well what SHOULD we do?
Crickets.
Silence.
Blank stares.
You all can't think about what you'll do when the dust settles next week and no one is even talking about this article.
You all get your progressive quote of the day in and bounce.
WE NEED TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM!
YEAH MAN THAT SYSTEM OF A BUNCH OF INTERCONNECTED AND COMPLEX THINGS...YEAH CHANGE THE WHOLE THING!
What are we left with?
Underpaid teachers who struggle day in and day out.
Barely surviving non-profit workers.
Congressmen who don't give a damn...and if you're lucky to live in an area that has a member that actually looks at educational issues, you MIGHT get a few more dollars or press apperances.
Legislation that moves at a snails pace...and once it even gets passed, addresses NOTHING.
You wake up to that same slow... agonizing death of black kids who struggled to get to school just as much as they did yesterday...
But reinforcing that nothing is too difficult...that nothing is out of their reach...that they will have to work harder and sacrifice more to get even an average life... that no odds are too great...
...is a bad thing.
A handful of websites...(no matter how tactless the delivery)... the suggestion to learn a skill, and to meet the right people...is an outrageous claim suddenly.
Ask yourself.
If you're a poor black kid who is dodging gang activity, trying to put food on the table, I have no jump shot and i'm too little to play football. Basically a kid who faces all those obstacles...
I still want to break out of the system however...
The world isn't changing fast enough for me and I need options.
What is the standard I have to meet and the process for me get out of the hood without doing anything illegal?
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I know this girl that had straight A's during high school but scored less than 1400 on the current SAT. Inner city schools are a joke.
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Putty the main problem here is that all these quick solutions are not very realistic.Kids who barely are at a fourth grade reading level and math level can't possible benefit from online caculators and cliff notes. The major problem is environment and the child situation. That has to be addressed first education reform comes after social reform.Tameka and Jamal need better environments to better them and their classmates. One successful kid out of 400 is failure the reform and aid has to benefit the whole not the individual
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Vision me a "poor black kid" who has just seen the light and wishes to spread it among my poor surroundings. You're just going to tell me to kick rocks? I see everyone solving this crisis from the outside but no one is doing anything from the inside. Of course I could help myself and those around me by first getting myself together but in the meantime I have to stay quite?
curbyourenthusiasm
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you see it as excuses.
"he doesnt eat food except at school" HOW DOES THAT HELP HIM TONITE
you see that as an excuse.
thats a real life situation that explains how reading MAY NOT BE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO A STUDENT
how is that an excuse?
as far as my program to get off the ground?
THEY HAVE ESL DEPARTMENTS ALREADY FULLY FUNDED AND OPERATING IN THE VERY SCHOOLS BLACK CHILDREN ARE FAILING OUT OF
if a mexican kid doesnt understand instructions in englsih, he has an aide dedicated to explaining it so that he understands
if a black kid doesnt understand instructions in english, its his fault because hes not dedicated to his own education and deserves to be behind
oh, alright.
again
how does "FOCUS ON READING"
help tyrone tonight?
"he doesnt eat food except at school" HOW DOES THAT HELP HIM TONITE
you see that as an excuse.
thats a real life situation that explains how reading MAY NOT BE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO A STUDENT
how is that an excuse?
as far as my program to get off the ground?
THEY HAVE ESL DEPARTMENTS ALREADY FULLY FUNDED AND OPERATING IN THE VERY SCHOOLS BLACK CHILDREN ARE FAILING OUT OF
if a mexican kid doesnt understand instructions in englsih, he has an aide dedicated to explaining it so that he understands
if a black kid doesnt understand instructions in english, its his fault because hes not dedicated to his own education and deserves to be behind
oh, alright.
again
how does "FOCUS ON READING"
help tyrone tonight?
Tameka and Jamal need better environments to better them and their classmates.
no, man, they just need these books that appear out of thin air to read, then crackheads wont be outside when they walk home, because they'll have an on-grade reading level and can escape the hood as a 7 year old
"you have good ideas, ideas which include a perspective on the population you're giving advice to. these are real world solutions that will actually benefit the children BETTER than the article.....................but it doesnt help tyrone TONITE"
like i said ESL programs are already operating
its as simple as a form to fill out.
it works with mexicans and somalians who dont even speak english
why wont it help black kids read and write better as well?
do you not see that mexican students get 10 times the resources as black students?
then people turn around and say "i know mexicans who come here with nothing and succeed"
HE HAS 5 FULL TIME STAFFERS STANDING OVER HIM THE ENTIRE TIME HE GOES TO SCHOOL
IF HE DOESNT UNDERSTAND, ITS NOT BECAUSE HE LACKS INTELLIGENCE, HE JUST DOESNT KNOW ENGLISH
LET THIS NICE LADY EXPLAIN IT TO HIM FOR 20 ADDITIONAL MINUTES IN SPANISH
ive turned kids around from habitual problems dealth with by suspending them into the star student in class.
i certainly didnt tell the kid to "focus on trying harder"
i gave her real advice because i understood her situation.
again, for a 10th time
you havent responded to
how can someone offer advice on how to successfully navigate a situation he is COMPLETELY OBLIVIOUS to?
its not even like hes not an authority...he literally knows NOTHING
yes, he says its a "tough neighborhood" but does he really and truely understand what "rough" means?
my guess, from the tone of authority, he has no idea....not even a tiny bit
i dont even think he researched the hood 3rd person, i.e. asking someone else
didnt even matter that much to him
LMAO
hes so concerned about helping the poor black kid
that he didnt see the utility of MEETING one before telling them how to escape their reality.....a reality he cant even fathom
please address that or this back and forth is over.
(also, notice, i didnt criticize him for being white once, so when your response includes me saying hes wrong cause he's white, you're wasting our time here)
curbyourenthusiasm
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like i dont even understand what youre asking me dude.
sillyputty
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You want to talk about realistic solutions? The audacity of this guy right here...
Whats not realistic is to think that every kid honestly has a chance at making it out and deserves the best.
Whats not realistic is to think that just because you're poor, you DESERVE what bill gates eats.
You want realism? Lets talk about our efforts to get every kid to college.
You want realism? Lets talk about the chances those kids end up dead or in jail.
You want realism? Lets talk about they consume the same entertainment that ruins them cause most of them are a little TOO impressionable.
You want realism? Lets talk about the chance that everything we're doing is futile.
You want realism? Tell them its their parents' fault.
Thats what we're shying away from REALLY saying here.
Whats unrealistic is to think that no matter where you are born, that you deserve the best of everything.
What is success anyways? Being able to read? To count?
Plenty of kids in the hoods around the world an domestically can do that...but they turn to crime cause there are no opportunities. (Criminals are some of the smartest members of society. I stand by that wholeheartedly. Thats besides the point.)
But we all still wake up, dust ourselves off, and try to make the world a better place, right? Even though it seems like we're digging a hole in the sand...we keep digging.
Most of these kids won't stand a chance. We all know it. But we still TRY anyways.
I used to tutor some kids off Cleveland Ave in Atlanta (ask about it). They loved seeing me cause I would always try and make them think for themselves and arrive at answers independently.
But I knew what the deal was. I'd see how these kids got picked up from school. I saw their parents and how they lived. Those kids didn't stand a chance. I knew it too. I was only delaying the inevitable...I still tried though. Didn't I?
See this is the problem...ya'll wanna stick so much emphasis on what is not realistic and talk about how victimized you all are without even TRYING anything.
You all admit that these are good suggestions, since they're better than nothing, but you disagree because it doesn't show how high the walls of success are.
SO WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING?
Again, WHERE ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS?
Why can't we tell kids to work harder AND still try to change the system as we've been trying to do for now 30 years.
Its not either or...the two concepts work hand-in-hand.
You want realism? Tell those kids that it won't matter anyways. No matter what you say, they'll go off and ruin their lives for the most part. Just keep it real. In a class of 20 an average of 5 of them will be in jail. 1-2 dead. 3-4 have kids and the rest will be poor and maybe barely 1 of them will get to college.
But no, you want to tell me its unrealistic to show kids options.
You guys are bigger racists than the guy who wrote the article it honestly seems. Lets keep it real. You all know SO MUCH about the black poor experience that you can speak on ALL of these kids' behalf. As if there aren't ranges of poverty and access to resources....
You all are experts on what black kids can and can't accomplish so just tell them the truth.
Tell them that you REALLY don't expect anything to change.
Tell them that nothing you do will matter.
Tell them that "systemic" change won't happen fast enough and they should just suck it up.
Tell them that trying hard is beyond them.
Tell them that they're victims every day.
Drive it home. They're screwed. Oh well.
Unless you're going to stick a fork in your argument and actually keep trying to do ANYTHING that helps.
CURB, I applaud you for actually listing viable solutions. ESL, mentoring programs. etc.
But it look 11 pages to do that AND you're the only one thats actually done anything to help.
Thats my point.
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When bill Cosby did the same thing folks got in him about it so please race isn't a factor perspective and knowledge is
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http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2011...tunde-thurston-responds-to-forbes-gene-marks/
I did not stop there. I became an expert at the CIA World Factbook, started usingEvernote and made it my goal to get into one of those private schools you wrote about. Before your article, I never wanted anything more for myself. I used Google (thanks for the tip!), found the names and addresses of the school admissions officers, and showed up outside of their homes. It's like they were waiting for me. They smiled, waved and immediately told me about their secret scholarship programs.
Private school was exactly like you said it would be. I went straight to the guidance counselor, and I said, "You know everything there is to know about financial aid, grants, minority programs and the like."
And she said, "I sure do! And even though I don't know your name, I'm going to help you get summer employment at a law firm or a business owned by the 1% where you could meet people and show off your stuff." I love showing off my stuff, sir. You have no idea.
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this thread is deeper than a papoose punchline.
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Good stuff
You read the article by Toure (linked in the CNN post) yet? He's not as tongue-in-cheek, taking a more direct approach. I liked his article a little more, tbh.
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Originally Posted by Noskey
Good stuff
You read the article by Toure (linked in the CNN post) yet? He's not as tongue-in-cheek, taking a more direct approach. I liked his article a little more, tbh.
Great response.
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If he didn't do that, there'd be nothing left to argue about and he'd have nothing to get off on.what you dont understand is, we're giving an opinion on his opinion peice...
nobody needs to come up with better solutions dude
you're morphing our argument into one that we're not making
So, he's going to put words in your mouth, distort your position, and try to lure you into responding by quoting you 500 times and emphasizing his disrespectful jabs with his LOOK AT ME font. It's tired.
You'll notice, too, that he hasn't exactly provided any solutions himself.
There's a good reason for that. He can't play defense. That's what "well let's hear YOUR solution" means. It means "I'm tired of defending my position; give me something to attack."
If you're criticizing an idea or a policy, it's not necessarily incumbent upon you to provide a perfect alternative.
The whole thing smacks of desperation. If you're making a moral argument against slavery, I'm sure the slaveowner would love to say, "oh yeah, well if you can think of a cheaper way for us to manage our plantations I'd like to hear it." At that point, it becomes an argument about the economics of farm management, not the ethics of slavery. It's a cheap diversionary ploy.
You'd think someone who points out textbook fallacy types by name at every conceivable opportunity would know better.
This is just a desperate attempt to get someone to play with you. Baseless assumptions notwithstanding, you have no clue what most people here have actually done in their lives. The closest you've come to offering a solution yourself is to co-sign with a guy who said "study harder and use cliff's notes," and you're calling us poseurs?
Find a better hobby.
Some of us actually work in the field. Some of us volunteer. Some of us have studied these issues extensively. Some of us have directly supported programs intended to address these issues.
Not everyone's hellbent on posting a full-blown manifesto in every topic that's even remotely related to a particular area of interest. Generally, that's only something that a neophyte would do. Anyone else wouldn't want to hash it out for the nth time unless the opportunity were truly productive.
There have been quite a few posts on this forum over the years re: education policy and a number of us have discussed various approaches that are a bit more sophisticated than "buy a cheap computer on Tiger Direct and Google it." You can find them if you like or even start a new one of your own. That's not really what this article was about to begin with. It's simple exploitation.
Let's not pretend that everyone offended by this MUST furnish the world with a foolproof plan to establish equity in education. If your position is that the article is offensive, that's all you have to demonstrate. If Marie Antoinette said "let them eat cake," you could object to that without yourself proposing a solution to world hunger.
We all know that if someone caught up in one of your innumerable and interminable anti-theist rants tried to defend his or her beliefs by forcing you to explain something that remains a mystery to modern science, you'd call them out and continue to ridicule their chosen explanation. The last thing you'd do is say, "welp, you got me. I don't have all the answers so therefore your belief must be correct."
And yet, here you are using that same crude strategy just to keep people engaged with you. It's sad.
If your goal was to solicit and learn about various strategies to help students in impoverished communities, you wouldn't have to goad people into it by calling them names or questioning their commitment. You'd just ask the question.
If, on the other hand, all you want to do is rile people up and bicker with them, then they have every right to question your sincerity and your motives. If the only way you can get people to carry on a conversation with you is to force them to defend themselves against your insults, maybe you ought to take a good long look in the mirror and direct some of that critical analysis you're so proud of inward for a change.
Like Marks, the sheer offensiveness of your presentation overwhelms any possibility of contributing positively to the discussion.