Good Guy Lucifer Is An Underrated Meme

[pleasurephd]

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by Beware The Underdog

I guess we should talk about something like...Nutrition, in a thread about "lucifer"

Odds on that God exists, says scientist

I hope you didn't think you could post this and no one would read it.
I really don't know if you read this article. This is an incredibly awful source, BTW. 







I ALWAYS bring this up and it still amazes me every time; people are so naive about certain things. It always happens though, people take the word of false authorities (someone who claims to be an "expert" with bogus credentials), cite bad sources from a crappy websites or youtube videos, etc... 

I mean come on, yall probably thought the blair witch project was real? Huh?

Reminds me of the pacific northwest tree octopus.

Naive fools...

 

[tkthafm]

Go easy on the Christians....

It's been near two thousand years and they still can't reconcile the concept of God supposedly being 3 yet 1 at the same time 

inb4 1+1+1 = 1  

 

[|A-Man|]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by shoefreakbaby

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey


You don't have enough room to fit me in baby, trust me

 As if,

that's what i thought, u want no parts of my lower horn

 

[onthenephs]

No one benefits anything from these threads, as it has been said a hundred times,  I do enjoy them though. 
Putty why do YOU, or atheists in general, dislike religion? 

It can not be wars considering the wars caused by greed, corruption, social systems, faaar outweigh any of the "battles" regarding religion. The idea that religion is the cause of all these wars is purely manipulated by the media. I am sure you are smart enough to know this, or not "smart" but at least resourceful enough to find out that this is the case.

Is it that religious people are bad people? I mean, am I bad because i believe in ALLAH?.. but yet you have no concept of bad. So what am I? why would i cause some sort of discomfort to you?

Is it that you think humans can achieve more than what we already have? Surely religion does not de motivate individuals nor does it kill ambition. You can achieve just as much being an aethist doctor, as one named Muhammed, correct?

If it is because religion shapes outlooks and those outlooks do not generally approve of yours, there are conservatives, liberals, republicans, democrats, socialism, capitalism (killed way more than religion) and they are all ways of life. People generally use these terms to describe much more than just their political views but also their personal views. And just like there are anarchists who believe those systems are at fault, there are atheists who disprove god.

 So the exploitation of WHOLE continents, people and resources of the earth that Capitalism/Merchantilism caused, yet people still follow them blindly and agree with the system whats your view on that? Why are you not out there professing your disgust and clear failures with in a system?

MY POINT IS, why is religion given  so much attention when the factors that really affect day to day life for all societies has nothing to do with religion? 

 

[boys noize]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by shoefreakbaby

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey


You don't have enough room to fit me in baby, trust me

 As if,

that's what i thought, u want no parts of my lower horn

The sexual tension in this thread 

 

 

[rko2004]

Originally Posted by shoefreakbaby

Originally Posted by RKO2004

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey



If God judges your heart you then most Christians are burning in hell for all eternity like Putty and I, FACT


Without fear, Christianity would lose most of its followers, you can deny it all you want but it's the truth

Quick tid bit about myself. I don't believe because I don't want to go to hell. I believe because I feel there is something greater for us all beyond what we see and live.

No I wouldn't want to be without God, so I try to form a greater bond with him and continue to work on obeying his laws. So yeah, I fear God and fear being outside of his presence in the afterlife. Its the fear I had for my mother and grandparents. Its a respect fear. Without respect, where would we be?

Without the fear of going to jail and being punished, how many more criminals would we have?

It is what it is in terms of how I'm viewed and depicted. But I really do love God and have faith that there is something greater awaiting after this world. This is a very dark world no matter how bright that sun is.

Can I ask you a question?
...

Do you pray and ask God for discernment before you debate in these threads?

No. For a while now I have been getting off course. Lately I've been praying and reading more and just trying to debate better.

 

[boys noize]

Originally Posted by OnTheNephs

No one benefits anything from these threads, as it has been said a hundred times,  I do enjoy them though. 
Putty why do YOU, or atheists in general, dislike religion? 

It can not be wars considering the wars caused by greed, corruption, social systems, faaar outweigh any of the "battles" regarding religion. The idea that religion is the cause of all these wars is purely manipulated by the media. I am sure you are smart enough to know this, or not "smart" but at least resourceful enough to find out that this is the case.

Is it that religious people are bad people? I mean, am I bad because i believe in ALLAH?.. but yet you have no concept of bad. So what am I? why would i cause some sort of discomfort to you?

Is it that you think humans can achieve more than what we already have? Surely religion does not de motivate individuals nor does it kill ambition. You can achieve just as much being an aethist doctor, as one named Muhammed, correct?

If it is because religion shapes outlooks and those outlooks do not generally approve of yours, there are conservatives, liberals, republicans, democrats, socialism, capitalism (killed way more than religion) and they are all ways of life. People generally use these terms to describe much more than just their political views but also their personal views. And just like there are anarchists who believe those systems are at fault, there are atheists who disprove god.

 So the exploitation of WHOLE continents, people and resources of the earth that Capitalism/Merchantilism caused, yet people still follow them blindly and agree with the system whats your view on that? Why are you not out there professing your disgust and clear failures with in a system?

MY POINT IS, why is religion given  so much attention when the factors that really affect day to day life for all societies has nothing to do with religion? 

Before I begin, I'll agree with you that capitalism is truly evil but that's for another thread.
There are many reasons not to like religion. Religious bigotry, how religion tries to influence our secular nation, how religion tries to influence the education system, how religion persecutes certain minority groups due to their archaic laws, etc.

Those topics have been discussed in this thread.

Instead of going down that path again, I'm going to focus on the highlighted quote. That is one of the biggest misconceptions there is; that morality stems from religion and not vice versa. There is no non-human moral authority. Every single religious text we have today was written and edited by humans. To put it bluntly, those putting together the various religious texts already had an idea of what morality was when they put it down in ink or chiseled it on a tablet or whatever.

There is an article on Big Think that puts it much more eloquently.

http://bigthink.com/ideas/41706

There Is No Non-Human Moral Authority

Adam Lee on December 28, 2011, 6:42 AM

While reading some remembrances of Christopher Hitchens, I came across a column which quoted this statement from his brother Peter, who was a believer:

Like Einstein, he viewed ethics as "an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it," a position that sparked conflict with his journalist brother, Peter, who has argued that, "For a moral code to be effective, it must be attributed to, and vested in, a nonhuman source. It must be beyond the power of humanity to change it to suit itself."

Since Christopher Hitchens isn't around to answer this, I guess it's up to me.

So, here's what I say to Peter Hitchens and anyone who believes likewise: The fatal flaw in this position is that, contrary to your confident presumption, there is no non-human moral authority. Every religious book is written, edited, and printed by humans. All moral opinions, interpretations, and proclamations are human opinions. If there were a huge, glowing set of tablets with commandments engraved on them that descended from the sky accompanied by angels blowing trumpets, and the choice was between following those or making up moral laws on our own, we'd be having a very different debate; but there is no such thing. All moral laws are humanly produced. The question is which set of human-created laws we should follow and why.

This clearly isn't the terrain that religion wants to fight on. They want to begin the debate with the presumption that their moral rules are supernaturally inspired, given to us by a source beyond human comprehension, and that no human being is qualified to argue with them. Clearly, such an enormous claim has to be proved, not just assumed.

Even if one is a theist, there's no reason to grant this presumption. There are thousands of different religions in the world, each with their own, mutually incompatible moral codes, and each one claiming supernatural sanction. Even if you believe in a god who gives moral revelations, the odds of any one claimant being the beneficiary of such a revelation is small. No matter what, the apologist who wants to claim divine warrant can't escape the need to give direct evidence of supernatural influence in the production of his preferred moral code. Mere appeals to faith, which is all that they have to offer, are a poor and inadequate substitute.

I agree that belief in a divine origin makes moral ideas harder to change. But that's only a good thing if those ideas are themselves good - and many religious ideas manifestly are not. The "non-human authority" that Peter Hitchens appeals to is the same non-human authority that was invoked (and still is invoked) in support of absolute monarchy, of slavery, of genocide, of patriarchal demands for women's submission, of racial segregation, of anti-gay prejudice, of the diminution of reason and free inquiry. Precisely because all these ideas were claimed to come from a non-human source, it was and is much harder to change them than it otherwise would have been.

Of course, there are many religious people today who recoil at these horrors. And that just proves the point: every moral code, whether theistic or atheistic, changes over time. The only question is whether we admit this or whether we pretend that we're not doing it. Churches almost always choose the latter course, which leads to absurdities like the Bible verses regulating slavery being swept under the rug and ignored, even while apologists that nothing in their doctrine has ever changed. They would be much better off if they'd simply admit that human conscience has shown these passages to be detestable, that their holy books contain moral errors, and then join the rest of us living in the real world and using our reason to figure out how we can act to achieve the greatest good.

 

[onthenephs]

There are many reasons not to like religion. Religious bigotry, how religion tries to influence our secular nation, how religion tries to influence the education system, how religion persecutes certain minority groups due to their archaic laws, etc.

Come on. Over looking the fact that your nation is not secular, have you literally seen this any where? The church and the gays. Do the actual math and you will realize the gays have much more power than the church in USA, they are neither the minority nor are they persecuted in the birds eye view of things. What else is there? the political and judicial system imposes more on your free rights as a human being than religion ever has.

And the concept of bad. Typical human behaviour is to associate bad with feelings of guilt, the implicatioin that you can commit actions feeling no guilt, to me, signifies that your understanding of bad is different than mine or the mainstream. Hence why i say you don't believe in the concept of bad.

 

[tkthafm]

The article falls apart right from the start:

"Every religious book is written, edited, and printed by humans. All moral opinions, interpretations, and proclamations are human opinions. If there were a huge, glowing set of tablets with commandments engraved on them that descended from the sky accompanied by angels blowing trumpets, and the choice was between following those or making up moral laws on our own, we'd be having a very different debate; but there is no such thing. All moral laws are humanly produced. The question is which set of human-created laws we should follow and why."

Simply: No.

The author might as well have written "I personally deem all religious books as being human-created". Better yet, you can summarize his entire "article" as: I don't believe in God, therefore he doesn't exist. There's no proof the Qur'an was human created or edited.. in fact all proof points to the opposite. (unlike all other religious texts). If you want to ignore this and assume it was human created so you can group it together with other texts in one giant clump and write a boring/irrelevant article about churches changing their mind, that's on you; but don't be so pompous/arrogant as to assume you just proved the lack of a moral authority.

 

[boys noize]

Originally Posted by OnTheNephs

There are many reasons not to like religion. Religious bigotry, how religion tries to influence our secular nation, how religion tries to influence the education system, how religion persecutes certain minority groups due to their archaic laws, etc.

Come on. Over looking the fact that your nation is not secular, have you literally seen this any where? The church and the gays. Do the actual math and you will realize the gays have much more power than the church in USA, they are neither the minority nor are they persecuted in the birds eye view of things. What else is there? the political and judicial system imposes more on your free rights as a human being than religion ever has.

And the concept of bad. Typical human behaviour is to associate bad with feelings of guilt, the implicatioin that you can commit actions feeling no guilt, to me, signifies that your understanding of bad is different than mine or the mainstream. Hence why i say you don't believe in the concept of bad.

The US is technically a secular nation. We do have a separation of church and state. Are there people trying to blur the line? Yes. It is still a secular nation though. I don't know where you're getting this "the gays have more power than the church" but you're completely off base. If that were even remotely true, wouldn't gay marriage already be in the rear view mirror? Why are we still debating in the mainstream whether sexual orientation is grounds for equality under the law? Another specific example of religion trying to push itself into society is the whole creationism/intelligent design debate. There is a large population of the country that believes that creationism/intelligent design should be taught in public school classrooms. Then there's the abortion topic. How many more doctors have to die for something that should be a non-issue? How many more clinics need to be firebombed?
The argument is that what is considered morale or not changes with time. Regardless of religion. I never said I don't get feelings of guilt. What I am saying though is that people feel guilty about things differently from one another. What YOU might feel guilty about, I might not feel guilty about. What I feel guilty about, maybe you won't. There is no standard for morality. I don't speak for any group, definitely not the mainstream, and I'm not claiming to. 

 

[boys noize]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

The article falls apart right from the start:

"Every religious book is written, edited, and printed by humans. All moral opinions, interpretations, and proclamations are human opinions. If there were a huge, glowing set of tablets with commandments engraved on them that descended from the sky accompanied by angels blowing trumpets, and the choice was between following those or making up moral laws on our own, we'd be having a very different debate; but there is no such thing. All moral laws are humanly produced. The question is which set of human-created laws we should follow and why."

Simply: No.

The author might as well have written "I personally deem all religious books as being human-created". Better yet, you can summarize his entire "article" as: I don't believe in God, therefore he doesn't exist. There's no proof the Qur'an was human created or edited.. in fact all proof points to the opposite. (unlike all other religious texts). If you want to ignore this and assume it was human created so you can group it together with other texts in one giant clump and write a boring/irrelevant article about churches changing their mind, that's on you; but don't be so pompous/arrogant as to assume you just proved the lack of a moral authority.

And you can summarize your post with these few sentences: I believe the Quran to be absolutely divine. No human hand touched it. This is faith-based and not evidence-based.
And I'll believe that you do believe that. I don't agree but I believe you really mean it. Have your faith but don't try passing it off as a universal truth that is undeniable because it isn't.

I'll never say there is no god but I will say that there most likely isn't one given what we know about the universe we live in. Given the complete lack of evidence to there being a supernatural cosmic being.

 

[tkthafm]

The point of my post wasn't to prove God's existence, but rather to refute the article. Faith aside, the empirical evidence for the Qur'an being perfectly preserved is on my side. Hence claiming a non-human moral authority can't exist because all religious texts are human-created is mere opinion. Claiming all religious texts were human edited is an unsupported assumption. So as you said, we're back to square one. As for the evidence, if you are interested I can refer you to why I personally believe the Qur'an is in fact from God. Accepting/rejecting is of course up to you.

 

[boys noize]

Please post whatever you would like to support your claim. I'm obviously skeptical but let's see it. Keep in mind, I'm operating under the assumption that the evidence to be provided is pretty spectacular stuff given the spectacular claim.

I hope we're operating under a similar working definition of what empirical evidence actually is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_research

 

[tkthafm]

Note that I said empirical evidence when talking about the preservation of the Qur'an. As for that, there is plenty, even from secular scholars.
This debate is informative/also entertaining:  (entire channel has plenty of nice vids)

Now, more importantly, as for why I personally believe... there are many angles to look at it from.

The literary/linguistic perfection and miracles of the Qur'an (Ofc. knowing Arabic helps but not essential):









http://www.linguisticmiracle.com/

The scientific...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5h6CNhtVls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoNEfuEWtXc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiLBGHwX_4c

http://quranandscience.com/quran-a-science.html

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

The historical/prophetic...

http://www.quranmiracles.com/category/archaeology/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKcsgnoKKTI

The Prophet's character/biography...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o8UmErRVZk

misc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCgj6p3JTLg

http://thedeenshow.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2sa5ymA8SE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Hr1_LB3Io

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSI4LyIlNIQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rOn4vYwa0w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOwA0v026wY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3eJKDmyXrk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktq_Nz_ABI8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pESXwJYYcGo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVdkdjzY2Xs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zor1et-rT8c

These are just some aspects (tried to choose vids/shorter writings rather than books), and along with the overall message (ofc reading the entire Qur'an http://quran.com/ for yourself is important)/personal experiences are some of the reasons I personally believe. I can't fathom how it would have been possible for an illiterate man 1400+ years ago to have produced the Qur'an (or copied/stole it etc as some falsely claim) and yet it is free from any errors/contradictions... literally sets the standard for the Arabic language, and in fact fixes the errors in other religious texts, and contains various scientific/historical information that was unknown at the time etc. This illiterate man single-handedly changes his entire society in just 23 years (and soon after, much of the world) and Islam continues to have tremendous growth (as prophesized) until this day where it is the fastest growing religion and the only religion where millions have memorized the holy book word for word (God himself stated he would make it easily memorized) and the only holy book that was perfectly preserved (again, God himself stated he would protect the book from human changes). No societies on Earth matched the fairness/justice seen under the first four Caliphs. Also, the beauty of the religion itself. Nothing, no other religion is comparable. For example, Hajj is unparalleled anywhere else in humanity. Literally millions from every country in the world gather together in peace in one place regardless of race/language etc to worship one God, as they do in their respective homes 5 times a day everyday. All the elements of practice/worship are perfection to me and vastly superior to any other religion/methodology, even the simple/overlooked things like the importance of manners & hygiene etc. I don't think this is all coincidence, or the fact that Muslims are THE most religious/faithful/pious of any other group on Earth...http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/...slims-more-religious-than-others-experts-say/. I very actively seek out all alternative explanations/criticisms/attacks/refutations etc and I find absolutely nothing that changes my mind, but my faith only increases. If there is any religion from God, it must clearly be Islam. It covers every aspect of life from the very simple to theology to political/social structure etc. I don't see how a human/humans could have formed the Qur'an/Islam. 

Ofc there will always be an element of faith, but view/read these materials with an open mind/heart/sincerity and reflect deeply on things, look for errors/contradictions and do your own research (as the Qur'an itself commands us to do so in numerous instances) compare Islam to all other faiths/systems (including secular ones) and come to your own conclusions, however long it takes you. 

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Note that I said empirical evidence when talking about the preservation of the Qur'an. As for that, there is plenty, even from secular scholars.
This debate is informative/also entertaining:  (entire channel has plenty of nice vids)

Now, more importantly, as for why I personally believe... there are many angles to look at it from.

The literary/linguistic perfection and miracles of the Qur'an (Ofc. knowing Arabic helps but not essential):









http://www.linguisticmiracle.com/

The scientific...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5h6CNhtVls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoNEfuEWtXc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiLBGHwX_4c

http://quranandscience.com/quran-a-science.html

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

The historical/prophetic...

http://www.quranmiracles.com/category/archaeology/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKcsgnoKKTI

The Prophet's character/biography...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o8UmErRVZk

misc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCgj6p3JTLg

http://thedeenshow.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2sa5ymA8SE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Hr1_LB3Io

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSI4LyIlNIQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rOn4vYwa0w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOwA0v026wY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3eJKDmyXrk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktq_Nz_ABI8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pESXwJYYcGo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVdkdjzY2Xs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zor1et-rT8c

These are just some aspects (tried to choose vids/shorter writings rather than books), and along with the overall message (ofc reading the entire Qur'an http://quran.com/ for yourself is important)/personal experiences are some of the reasons I personally believe. I can't fathom how it would have been possible for an illiterate man 1400+ years ago to have produced the Qur'an (or copied/stole it etc as some falsely claim) and yet it is free from any errors/contradictions... literally sets the standard for the Arabic language, and in fact fixes the errors in other religious texts, and contains various scientific/historical information that was unknown at the time etc. This illiterate man single-handedly changes his entire society in just 23 years (and soon after, much of the world) and Islam continues to have tremendous growth (as prophesized) until this day where it is the fastest growing religion and the only religion where millions have memorized the holy book word for word (God himself stated he would make it easily memorized) and the only holy book that was perfectly preserved (again, God himself stated he would protect the book from human changes). No societies on Earth matched the fairness/justice seen under the first four Caliphs. Also, the beauty of the religion itself. Nothing, no other religion is comparable. For example, Hajj is unparalleled anywhere else in humanity. Literally millions from every country in the world gather together in peace in one place regardless of race/language etc to worship one God, as they do in their respective homes 5 times a day everyday. All the elements of practice/worship are perfection to me and vastly superior to any other religion/methodology, even the simple/overlooked things like the importance of manners & hygiene etc. I don't think this is all coincidence, or the fact that Muslims are THE most religious/faithful/pious of any other group on Earth...http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/...slims-more-religious-than-others-experts-say/. I very actively seek out all alternative explanations/criticisms/attacks/refutations etc and I find absolutely nothing that changes my mind, but my faith only increases. If there is any religion from God, it must clearly be Islam. It covers every aspect of life from the very simple to theology to political/social structure etc. I don't see how a human/humans could have formed the Qur'an/Islam. 

Ofc there will always be an element of faith, but view/read these materials with an open mind/heart/sincerity and reflect deeply on things, look for errors/contradictions and do your own research (as the Qur'an itself commands us to do so in numerous instances) compare Islam to all other faiths/systems (including secular ones) and come to your own conclusions, however long it takes you. 

What do I have to lose by not being Muslim?


This is gonna be good

 

[firepower23]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

There's no proof the Qur'an was human created or edited.. 

There's no proof it was created or edited by a deity.

 

[mycoldyourdone]

40 virgins, duh. cause when we die, where ever we go to we'll still be in human form.

do women get male virgins? srs question. what if youre gay? do squirrels get 40 squirrel virgins? not srs question.

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by RKO2004

Originally Posted by sillyputty


Lets be honest here.




If you all have a problem with me faking being religious, for a moment, when my life is being threatened, how is that ANY different from you thinking you can believe, for a lifetime, because you don't want to go to hell or be punished?




Do you think you can fool an all-knowing god by believing in it, only to avoid punishment?




...unless you're not a total believer... 

...This is why Pascal's Wager (i.e. "better to believe than to not") fails.

Putty it doesn't work like that for anyone.

Oh really? Where is your proof to back up this claim?

Believer or not. God judges your heart.

How do you KNOW this?

And if this is true, then I don't go to hell since I think I'm a pretty good person without believing in god.

You can say in your last minute of life "Jesus is my lord and savior and I have 100% faith in God!" and I don't think it will change much.

Why not?

Hitler was a christian, so does he go to heaven?
On top of that, how do you KNOW this will work or not? Its not in your hands is it?

And why do you talk on behalf of "god?"

Its like if you were a rapper. Some of your friends tail off and stop believing in your ability to make it. Then one day you get your big break and they all come running back around. You're going to ask them where they were during the times where you were down and could have used their support.

Well God hasn't dropped a hot christian oriented song in 2000+ years, its time for ya'll to give it up and go back to school and get a degree in communications.
Meanwhile god somehow managed to convince the muslims that Muhammed was the right prophet and everyone should follow him...then joseph smith came along with the same thing...

God knows who you are through the smiles and sad faces.

How do you know what god knows? Are you saying you know as much as god knows?

He sees through your works and your words.

How do you know this? Or is this just pedantic and obligatory christian poetry that gets drilled into you before you can think of what it really means.
if god sees my works and my words then god doesn't have to worry whether or not I believe in it.

If your are truly about that life. He'll know. A fair amount of people will not enter the his kingdom.

But what about those that kill in god's name?

A fair amount of those people may be lifetime church goers. Just like a Husband can spend 50 years with his wife and cheat on her and not sell out to her.

Sell out to his wife? What?

So can a 50 year church goer cheat on God so to speak.

Cheating on god? I was never in a relationship with god...the hell would I "cheat" on it for?
You stay with these weird metaphors...

...the christian influence is strong in you, young padwan.

---

---

---

---

Originally Posted by RKO2004

AntonLaVey wrote:

---

RKO2004 wrote:

---

Putty it doesn't work like that for anyone. Believer or not. God judges your heart.

You can say in your last minute of life "Jesus is my lord and savior and I have 100% faith in God!" and I don't think it will change much.

Its like if you were a rapper. Some of your friends tail off and stop believing in your ability to make it. Then one day you get your big break and they all come running back around. You're going to ask them where they were during the times where you were down and could have used their support.

God knows who you are through the smiles and sad faces. He sees through your works and your words. If your are truly about that life. He'll know. A fair amount of people will not enter the his kingdom. A fair amount of those people may be lifetime church goers. Just like a Husband can spend 50 years with his wife and cheat on her and not sell out to her. So can a 50 year church goer cheat on God so to speak.

If God judges your heart you then most Christians are burning in hell for all eternity like Putty and I, FACT


Without fear, Christianity would lose most of its followers, you can deny it all you want but it's the truth

Quick tid bit about myself. I don't believe because I don't want to go to hell.

Hold up.

Don't lie now.

You said earlier in this thread that you didn't want to go to hell.

So if god sent you to hell, would you have a problem with that?

I believe because I feel there is something greater for us all beyond what we see and live.
Such as?
Feeling something doesn't make it so. You have to be able to talk about, what you mean to talk about. Otherwise you're just rambling. Don't expect others to believe you if you can't express yourself.

No I wouldn't want to be without God, so I try to form a greater bond with him and continue to work on obeying his laws.

Do you beat your slaves and stone women?

So yeah, I fear God and fear being outside of his presence in the afterlife.

So you ARE afraid of god.
You just said you weren't.

Its the fear I had for my mother and grandparents. Its a respect fear. Without respect, where would we be?

Respect is not fear.
Don't equate the two.

Thats the sort of mental delusion that allows abused people to stay in unhealthy relationships...kinda like the one god has over your mind. Its like a pimp controlling the mind of his women.

Without the fear of going to jail and being punished, how many more criminals would we have?

Fear of prison is different from fear of a consequence that has never been shown to exist or even alluded to.
On top of that, most criminals just think god will forgive them anyways, so there is clearly no "fear" in their hearts.

What if we just taught people to not be complete buttholes to others?

It is what it is in terms of how I'm viewed and depicted.

No, thats partially your fault.

But I really do love God and have faith that there is something greater awaiting after this world. This is a very dark world no matter how bright that sun is.

That sounds really poetic...
...but it doesn't mean anything. Its just more liner notes from the church bulletin that you stole to make yourself sound better without actually saying anything.

Do what you say your god does and cut through the superficiality and start answering these questions a little more honestly.

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Originally Posted by tkthafm


Go easy on the Christians....

It's been near two thousand years and they still can't reconcile the concept of God supposedly being 3 yet 1 at the same time

inb4 1+1+1 = 1

Aren't a muslim?

How does it feel knowing that the god of the quran messed up TWICE indeliveringhis "universal truth" by giving it to the jews, then the christians, and then you.

Theres a parable about something and throwing stones and glass houses...do you know it?

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Originally Posted by OnTheNephs

No one benefits anything from these threads, as it has been said a hundred times, I do enjoy them though.

My personal inbox says otherwise.

Putty why do YOU, or atheists in general, dislike religion?

It can not be wars considering the wars caused by greed, corruption, social systems, faaar outweigh any of the "battles" regarding religion.

Not that I will ever condone war, but fighting over tangible presentations of ideas, as opposed to empty and vapid ones, does legitimize one over the other.

The idea that religion is the cause of all these wars is purely manipulated by the media. I am sure you are smart enough to know this, or not "smart" but at least resourceful enough to find out that this is the case.

Does that make religion more beneficial?

The pope has probably led to the birth of millions of babies AND the spread of STDs because of his stance on prophylactics and safe sex practices.

Thats just ONE example

The state of Kentucky recently cut 50M in education only to give 45M to the "Creationist Theme Park"

Religion hinders our collective impact of STEM fields because of their bronze-age ideology that does not allow for new information to be introduced.

This can NOT be a serious question.

Is it that religious people are bad people?

Inherently bad? No.
However, when commanded to by your religion, you will do bad things and no question your actions.

Your religion makes decisions for you, instead of the other way around.

I mean, am I bad because i believe in ALLAH?

No. Its what that belief commands you to do VERBATIM that calls into question what you would do when asked.

.. but yet you have no concept of bad.

Not believing in god doesn't mean I have no concept of morality. This is a flawed concept.
There have been religious AND moral codes that predated islam and it would be incredibly ignorant of you to assert this.

Morality is defined in the absence of religion and always has been.

So what am I? why would i cause some sort of discomfort to you?

Islamjustifiesthe death of people who don't follow islam.

If you disagree with that sentiment, then you're not a muslim. If you do agree with that sentiment, then at least you're being consistent with the teachings of the koran.

On one hand you either make things up. On the other hand, you are a blind believer with no sense of empathy or common good.

Is it that you think humans can achieve more than what we already have?

Yes.

Surely religion does not de motivate individuals nor does it kill ambition.

Au-contraire

You can achieve just as much being an aethist doctor, as one named Muhammed, correct?

Issac Newton, as brilliant as he was, stopped his research when he found that it too closely challenged the existence of god.

Imagine if he didnt have that mental barrier of BS to hold him back.

If it is because religion shapes outlooks and those outlooks do not generally approve of yours, there are conservatives, liberals, republicans, democrats, socialism, capitalism (killed way more than religion) and they are all ways of life.

Sure. They are all ways of life.
But don't impose your way of life on my dollar bill, or my pledge ofallegiance, or force it on a diverse group of people or hold it over the heads of poor people in exchange for food and shelter.

People generally use these terms to describe much more than just their political views but also their personal views. And just like there are anarchists who believe those systems are at fault, there are atheists who disprove god.

People who talk about political views can actually debunk something. They have problems with actual entities.

Anarchists talk about things that actually exist.

Religious people...well you get the idea.

So the exploitation of WHOLE continents, people and resources of the earth that Capitalism/Merchantilism caused, yet people still follow them blindly and agree with the system whats your view on that?

Nice non-sequitur and red-herring.
How does any of this have to do with the existence of your islamic god?

Why are you not out there professing your disgust and clear failures with in a system?

Because this isn't the topic of discussion.

If you want to talk about politics and economics, make a thread on that.

MY POINT IS, why is religion given so much attention when the factors that really affect day to day life for all societies has nothing to do with religion?

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Originally Posted by OnTheNephs

There are many reasons not to like religion. Religious bigotry, how religion tries to influence our secular nation, how religion tries to influence the education system, how religion persecutes certain minority groups due to their archaic laws, etc.

Come on. Over looking the fact that your nation is not secular, have you literally seen this any where? The church and the gays. Do the actual math and you will realize the gays have much more power than the church in USA, they are neither the minority nor are they persecuted in the birds eye view of things. What else is there? the political and judicial system imposes more on your free rights as a human being than religion ever has.


Whats your problem with gay people?

You really don't believe this non-sense do you?

Religion helped to justify slavery, then justify the lack of women's rights, then justify the lack of civil rights. Religion stiffled birth control, stem cell research, scientific understanding of the universe, genetics, vaccinations, public finance, government creed

Come on man. Religion is used as a pretense for a lot of bigotry and hatred in this country. Don't be so blind to overlook that obvious history. I can't believe you'd try and shift the blame like that.

Religion is a cancer.

The US is a secular nation that should give no preference to any religion over another.

...In fact, when it comes down to it... I don't CARE what the founding fathers said...Why should one religion or ANY religion take precedent over any other and force it on others?

And the concept of bad. Typical humanbehavioris to associate bad with feelings of guilt, the implicatioin that you can commit actions feeling no guilt, to me, signifies that your understanding of bad is different than mine or the mainstream. Hence why i say you don't believe in the concept of bad.

No. Just call it "YOUR" concept of bad.

You can't define things only in terms of how YOU define them and then assign them as a complete definition to which we are all responsible to adhere to.

Morality is subjective. And you know this, thats why you don't even follow the entire Quran, but you're smart enough to know what to pick and choose.

So much for your "absolute" morality in religion.

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Originally Posted by tkthafm

The article falls apart right from the start:

"Every religious book is written, edited, and printed by humans. All moral opinions, interpretations, and proclamations are human opinions. If there were a huge, glowing set of tablets with commandments engraved on them that descended from the sky accompanied by angels blowing trumpets, and the choice was between following those or making up moral laws on our own, we'd be having a very different debate; but there is no such thing. All moral laws are humanly produced. The question is which set of human-created laws we should follow and why."

Simply: No.

Hold up...are you saying that the Quran is any different?

The author might as well have written "I personally deem all religious books as being human-created". Better yet, you can summarize his entire "article" as: I don't believe in God, therefore he doesn't exist.

I don't believe in god because there is no evidence....much like your faith in the lochness monster. It doesn't mean that the loch ness doesn't exist.

There's no proof the Qur'an was human created or edited.. in fact all proof points to the opposite. (unlike all other religious texts). If you want to ignore this and assume it was human created so you can group it together with other texts in one giant clump and write a boring/irrelevant article about churches changing their mind, that's on you; but don't be so pompous/arrogant as to assume you just proved the lack of a moral authority.

Hol' Up!...What?!

Who wrote the Quran, buddy?




Humans? or God?

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Originally Posted by tkthafm

The point of my post wasn't to prove God's existence, but rather to refute the article. Faith aside, the empirical evidence for the Qur'an being perfectly preserved is on my side.

The quran is written in arabic and was limited to a period of time apart from the rest of the world...AND its newer...

On top of that, we have preserved chinese texts PREDATING even jewish religions by THOUSANDS of years...does that make theirs more valid?

AND other version of the quran were eliminated early in the beginning of the history of the religion by a guy whose name started with a "U" or something. I don't remember, but I know you know EXACTLY who i'm talking about. He burned all the other copies once a new leader came in power. Its well known and don't front like you don't know what i'm talking about.




Oh yeah, it also took TWENTY TWO YEARS to write.

What did muslims do for the first 21 years? Did they just read up until the most recently added sura?

Hence claiming a non-human moral authority can't exist because all religious texts are human-created is mere opinion.

They ARE all human created.

Claiming all religious texts were human edited is an unsupported assumption.

THEY WERE.

So as you said, we're back to square one. As for the evidence, if you are interested I can refer you to why I personally believe the Qur'an is in fact from God. Accepting/rejecting is of course up to you.

What you "believe" doesn't make it more factual, true, valid, or real.

It either is, or it is not.

You need to step out of this circle of logic you always present:

TKTHAFM, you can't post stuff from people who say the Quran is proven to be from god when they already believe the quran is from god. They can't be convinced otherwise. Thats illogical.

 

[tkthafm]

Originally Posted by FIREPOWER23

Originally Posted by tkthafm

There's no proof the Qur'an was human created or edited.. 

There's no proof it was created or edited by a deity.

Refer back to my post. There are mountains of evidence (I even broke it down by category) that show no human (no matter how smart/where he plagiarized from/how many people helped him etc) could have written it. The position that it was human created is ironically the one making the more extreme claim. If it's not from God, then who wrote it ? Muhammad was illiterate, but yet the Qur'an becomes the gold standard for the Arabic language for its beauty, it contains countless scientific/historical facts with not a single mistake (including corrections of the mistakes of previous religious texts). Someone claiming a book is from God is a making a very bold statement, so it would only make sense that the book in question would stand the test of time and be perfect in every form, which the Qur'an is (again, refer back to my post). 

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Originally Posted by FIREPOWER23

Originally Posted by tkthafm

There's no proof the Qur'an was human created or edited.. 

There's no proof it was created or edited by a deity.

Refer back to my post. There are mountains of evidence (I even broke it down by category) that show no human (no matter how smart/where he plagiarized from/how many people helped him etc) could have written it. 

Books... got... written... by... human... hands... before... the... invention... of... the... printing... press... in... Germany... 600... years... after... islam... was... created...

The position that it was human created is ironically the one making the more extreme claim.
What is the most succinct and direct evidence that "god" wrote it?



Don't forget that Arabic is still spoken, unlike the greek, Aramaic, and latin of the early bibles.




But dont forget that ancient chinese works are OLDER by thousands of years far better preserved than even some arabic texts.

If it's not from God, then who wrote it ? Muhammad was illiterate, but yet the Qur'an becomes the gold standard for the Arabic language for its beauty,

Homer composed the Iliad and the Odyssey, is it hard to believe that its said he was BLIND?! 

...maybe Zeus helped in write those...or MAYBE someone wrote them for him...

 

But wait...didn't those texts become hallmark works in our understanding of Greco-Roman culture?


Or didn't "Shakespeare" plagiarize some of his works? ...good thing he didn't become a hallmark of period English...oh wait, he DID. 

I wonder where concepts of hell arose before Dante...oh wait, there weren't any! 

Your answer is, "Well since I don't know who wrote it...then God wrote it!"




Bingo!




Case solved. Court adjourned. Home before five to see the wife and kids. 

 

it contains countless scientific/historical facts with not a single mistake (including corrections of the mistakes of previous religious texts).
 No. It doesn't.



I already showed you in a previous thread how the math it uses to calculate the ratio of the surface area of land to water was off by several orders of magnitude using the numbers YOU provided.




Don't be so quick to forget.




And thats just one example.

Someone claiming a book is from God is a making a very bold statement,

and yet you believe it...

so it would only make sense that the book in question would stand the test of time and be perfect in every form, which the Qur'an is (again, refer back to my post). 

Sans the fact it took 22 years to write and has countless revisions and updates to be incorporated through additional texts like the hadiths and other complementary texts. 

 

[Peep Game]

 

[tkthafm]

Hopefully some will actually look at the evidence posted.

sillyputty wrote:

---

tkthafm wrote:

---

FIREPOWER23 wrote:

---

There's no proof it was created or edited by a deity.


Refer back to my post. There are mountains of evidence (I even broke it down by category) that show no human (no matter how smart/where he plagiarized from/how many people helped him etc) could have written it. 
Books... got... written... by... human... hands... before... the... invention... of... the... printing... press... in... Germany... 600... years... after... islam... was... created...
I don't think you understand what the Qur'an is or it's significance in the daily life of a Muslim (IE: how many times a day we recite Quranic verses in congregation, going back to the very first revelation). The Qur'an was meant to be recited and thus memorized immediately by hundreds. To this day millions have memorized the exact same book. This is documented fact. 

The position that it was human created is ironically the one making the more extreme claim.
What is the most succinct and direct evidence that "god" wrote it?

Don't forget that Arabic is still spoken, unlike the greek, Aramaic, and latin of the early bibles.

But dont forget that ancient chinese works are OLDER by thousands of years far better preserved than even some arabic texts.



No other religious text of comparable age is perfectly preserved. Prove otherwise.

If it's not from God, then who wrote it ? Muhammad was illiterate, but yet the Qur'an becomes the gold standard for the Arabic language for its beauty,

Homer composed the Iliad and the Odyssey, is it hard to believe that its said he was BLIND?! ...maybe Zeus helped in write those...or MAYBE someone wrote them for him... 

But wait...didn't those texts become hallmark works in our understanding of Greco-Roman culture?

Or didn't "Shakespeare" plagiarize some of his works? ...good thing he didn't become a hallmark of period English...oh wait, he DID. 

I wonder where concepts of hell arose before Dante...oh wait, there weren't any! 



Your answer is, "Well since I don't know who wrote it...then God wrote it!"

Bingo!

Case solved. Court adjourned. Home before five to see the wife and kids.



Notice how you dodged the question. Who wrote it then ? and where is the proof ? How did he/they/them get the vast amount of knowledge needed to compose this perfect book (IE: Not a single error/contradiction) ? No alternative explanation makes any sense or has a shred of evidence to support it.




"Qur'an is a religious book ? 


God doesn't exist. I'll just ignore all evidence.




Case solved. Court adjourned. "

it contains countless scientific/historical facts with not a single mistake (including corrections of the mistakes of previous religious texts).
 No. It doesn't.

I already showed you in a previous thread how the math it uses to calculate the ratio of the surface area of land to water was off by several orders of magnitude using the numbers YOU provided.

Don't be so quick to forget.

And thats just one example.



and if you went back to the thread you would have seen how you were wrong and the numbers were correct. The water/land ratio is just one minor example. I posted countless more in this thread. Many confirmed by leading experts in their respective fields (see: Dr. Keith Moore, just one example) 




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_L._Moore

In his article, A Scientist’s Interpretation of References to Embryology in the Qur’an, Moore asserts that "statements referring to human reproduction and development are scattered throughout the Qur'an", and that "the interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago."[sup][12][/sup] Moore affirms that Qur'anic statements regarding human development make it clear that the book is of divine origin, concluding: "This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God or Allah."[sup][13] - wikipedia[/sup]

[sup]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_L._Moore#cite_note-12[/sup]

Someone claiming a book is from God is a making a very bold statement,

and yet you believe it...

so it would only make sense that the book in question would stand the test of time and be perfect in every form, which the Qur'an is (again, refer back to my post). 

Sans the fact it took 22 years to write and has countless revisions and updates to be incorporated through additional texts like the hadiths and other complementary texts.

Your ignorance is showing. I already provided you with an entire series documenting exactly how the Qur'an was sent down over the 23 (not 22) years. Then immediately memorized/implemented with absolutely no changes. (see debate I posted above) If you are interested in how the Hadith was compiled, you can look into the research of Johnathan Brown, a Hadith scholar who became so impressed with the process/accuracy of Hadith compilation that he later became Muslim 

at the end of the day, the evidence if never addressed because no one can refute it. No alternative explanations hold water. The Qur'an is undeniably divine.

 

[rko2004]

Putty, I'm not going back and forth with you. I have faith in God. I'm not going to argue and debate with you over that. You can continue to believe what you please.

You won.

 

[|A-Man|]

That is probably the quote of this thread.

Son thinks it's more likely a being that has not been prove to exist wrote the Quran than human beings who actually do exist

Occam's Razor man. Then he has the nerve to claim he posted evidence of it.

Originally Posted by RKO2004

Putty, I'm not going back and forth with you. I have faith in God. I'm not going to argue and debate with you over that. You can continue to believe what you please.

You won.

What's the difference between faith and gullibility?

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Hopefully some will actually look at the evidence posted.

sillyputty wrote:

---

tkthafm wrote:

---

Refer back to my post. There are mountains of evidence (I even broke it down by category) that show no human (no matter how smart/where he plagiarized from/how many people helped him etc) could have written it. 

Books... got... written... by... human... hands... before... the... invention... of... the... printing... press... in... Germany... 600... years... after... islam... was... created...
I don't think you understand what the Qur'an is or it's significance in the daily life of a Muslim (IE: how many times a day we recite Quranic verses in congregation, going back to the very first revelation). The Qur'an was meant to be recited and thus memorized immediately by hundreds. To this day millions have memorized the exact same book. This is documented fact. 


...SO?



I personally don't care what it means to you. I'm being honest. Its like asking if I honestly care what that cast iron pot in your oven means to you. I could care less if its from your great-great-great grandmother or not. To me its a pot thats really old. Now, it would be nice of me to respect it, but no one is obligated to "cherish" things the same way you do. There is also a difference between culture and religion that you're neglecting to address. 




I only care if what the Quran says is TRUE or FALSE.




The amount of people doing something, doesn't make it "True" or not. Tradition does not make certain things valid...otherwise civil rights would have never passed.

The position that it was human created is ironically the one making the more extreme claim.

What is the most succinct and direct evidence that "god" wrote it?

Don't forget that Arabic is still spoken, unlike the greek, Aramaic, and latin of the early bibles.

But dont forget that ancient chinese works are OLDER by thousands of years far better preserved than even some arabic texts.



No other religious text of comparable age is perfectly preserved. Prove otherwise.


Just one?...ok...




The code of Hammurabi...the Vedas?




Bruh, they've been using these things for THOUSANDS of years.




Anything else? 

If it's not from God, then who wrote it ? Muhammad was illiterate, but yet the Qur'an becomes the gold standard for the Arabic language for its beauty,

Homer composed the Iliad and the Odyssey, is it hard to believe that its said he was BLIND?! ...maybe Zeus helped in write those...or MAYBE someone wrote them for him... 

But wait...didn't those texts become hallmark works in our understanding of Greco-Roman culture?

Or didn't "Shakespeare" plagiarize some of his works? ...good thing he didn't become a hallmark of period English...oh wait, he DID. 

I wonder where concepts of hell arose before Dante...oh wait, there weren't any! 



Your answer is, "Well since I don't know who wrote it...then God wrote it!"

Bingo!

Case solved. Court adjourned. Home before five to see the wife and kids.



Notice how you dodged the question. Who wrote it then ? and where is the proof ? How did he/they/them get the vast amount of knowledge needed to compose this perfect book (IE: Not a single error/contradiction) ? No alternative explanation makes any sense or has a shred of evidence to support it.




"Qur'an is a religious book ? 


God doesn't exist. I'll just ignore all evidence.




Case solved. Court adjourned. "











I dodged the question?




I don't know who wrote it. I don't claim to know and I don't care. I only care if the claims in it are true or not. Is that something that not important to you?




But are you saying that a book that took 22 years to write didn't get written by a human? 

I might be able to get a large amount of information to fit into a book if I wasn't stealing from christianity AND taking TWO DECADES to write a book WITHOUT modern distractions. 

I didn't say "god doesnt exist"




I said that your proof doesn't support the islamic version of "god" to exist.

it contains countless scientific/historical facts with not a single mistake (including corrections of the mistakes of previous religious texts).

 
No. It doesn't.

I already showed you in a previous thread how the math it uses to calculate the ratio of the surface area of land to water was off by several orders of magnitude using the numbers YOU provided.

Don't be so quick to forget.

And thats just one example.



and if you went back to the thread you would have seen how you were wrong and the numbers were correct. The water/land ratio is just one minor example. I posted countless more in this thread. Many confirmed by leading experts in their respective fields (see: Dr. Keith Moore)





Post them. Try me. I already did your calculations for you.




I used YOUR numbers and your math was still wrong.




Let me find out that you don't know your order of operations.

Please. Excuse. My. Dear. Aunt. Sally. 

Someone claiming a book is from God is a making a very bold statement,

and yet you believe it...

so it would only make sense that the book in question would stand the test of time and be perfect in every form, which the Qur'an is (again, refer back to my post). 

Sans the fact it took 22 years to write and has countless revisions and updates to be incorporated through additional texts like the hadiths and other complementary texts.

Your ignorance is showing. I already provided you with an entire series documenting exactly how the Qur'an was sent down over the 23 (not 22) years.





That actually makes your argument look weaker...




God took 23 years to write a holy book.




Why would it take god ANY amount of time to write a holy book?




How is a book "sent down?" 




You mean, a guy says "god talked to him over 23 years?" 




or do you mean "god took 23 years to write a book?"




How is this common sense evading you?




God created the universe in six days...but took 22...excuse me, 23 years to "write" the Quran...Seems legit. 

...because god loves the written version of Arabic over all other languages in the world at the time 1400 years ago and forms of communication. Why didn't he write it in the sky? or on the side of a mountain? Why not just TELL everyone? 

On top of that, why did god mess up in revealing the "final word" to the jews, then the christians, and FINALLY the muslims? Did god make two mistakes?...and why did he wait so long? 

Then immediately memorized/implemented with absolutely no changes.

If it takes you 23 years to write something, you better know whats in it and have all your proofreading done. 

(see debate I posted above) If you are interested in how the Hadith was compiled, you can look into the research of Johnathan Brown, a Hadith scholar who became so impressed with the process/accuracy of Hadith compilation that he later became Muslim 

A hadith scholar that became a muslim. 

...seems...legit... 

at the end of the day, the evidence if never addressed because no one can refute it.

I'm addressing your evidence AND refuting it. What are you talking about?

No alternative explanations hold water.

Yeah...they actually do.



The quran wasn't written by god and you can't prove it was either.




 Its more likely that they stole from other religions (can you explain why Jesus is in there?

...maybe to steer all the christians away by throwing him in line with the "rest" of the story...

) than it is that they created something completely new. 

The Qur'an is undeniably divine.

No. Just no. 




Based on your justification, if the Qu'ran is divine so is this:

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Originally Posted by RKO2004

Putty, I'm not going back and forth with you. I have faith in God. I'm not going to argue and debate with you over that. You can continue to believe what you please.

You won.

Why do you keep doing this? 

 

You keep asking questions and when I respond to you then you just clam up. Like...jeez dude at least TRY to be consistent. I take the time to reply to EACH and EVERY thing you ever say...




You're free to espouse YOUR views but when I challenge what you say, then you have nothing to say. At all.




You know what god thinks, but when I respond to that, god apparently has nothing else to say. 

Where is the reciprocity and general respect for the rules of the debate?

























Sidenote: I'm not even legitimately upset with anyone or slamming my keyboard

, despite the size of my font. I'm just trying to get a point across. I enjoy these debates. Its good fun...just don't say something, then REFUSE to reply. Its not upsetting, just more annoying than anything.