Grey market discussion thread (Let's keep the discussion mature) Rules on pg 1 please read before yo

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JChambers said:
No Space Jams yet, but the black Grape Vs are here, and I can't tell the difference in quality between any of my retail Vs. I believe that any minor discrepancies are the same that you would find in any retail Nike or Jordan products. The quality is there, the real risk lies in dealing with overseas sellers and customs, etc.
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glad we got honest opinions in here

i bet with the space jams, you will like the taobao pair more than the retail version.
 
jdfrenchbread23 said:
Here's a little more info on Grey Market shoes/process in general

FAKE - by definition means not authentic or genuine.  Fake product is the term used for the illegal copying and manufacturing of name-brand products.  In also goes by the other names like imitation, replicas, knockoffs or bootleg. BOOTLEGGING is to produce, reproduce and distribute without authorization or license.  COUNTERFEIT is an imitation with intent of fraudulently passing it off as genuine. In essence Fake is a poor DUPLICATE of the genuine product.  


For example, a Fake Jordan IV starts by obtaining an authentic Jordan IV (normally smuggled out from the original factory) to reverse engineer, make a mould and use inferior direct and indirect materials in the build.  If you reproduce more Fake Jordan IV for distribution then you are BOOTLEGGING.  If you intend to pass your FAKE Jordan IV as genuine, then you are COUNTERFEITING.


VARIANT is a sneaker with slight variation in the official product. Un-released official colorways that is not distributed to the public are also called Variants (like team college sneakers for players). 


FACTORY VARIANTS can either be authentic (will discuss later) or fakes made to look different at factory level i.e. colorways or materials. Variants came into prominence in the sneaker hobby after Jordan retired for the 2nd time with the release of the Jordan XV.  What’s ironic is variants pave way to Customization of sneakers and in a way, Nike ID.


HYBRIDS are sneakers made from two or more models fused together.  In the 80s especially in Asia before Nike gave distribution rights, retailers buy straight from the factories.  Any sneakers damaged in transit are fixed and glued together often times resulting in a sneaker with a different top or bottom. So these sneakers are usually one-offs and not necessarily fakes, it’s just the result of the retailer not wanting to lose a sale.  Again, ironically, hybrids pave way to Nike fusions.


FACTORY SECONDS means imperfections found on the finish product which is also same as B-GRADES.  B-Grades are sneakers that fail the quality inspection.  There are two kinds of B-Grades.


FACTORY B-GRADES are sneakers that didn’t make the final cut in the manufacturing process i.e. factory, before shipment to the warehouse for distribution. Usually these sneakers are considered faulty and ‘written off’ (will discuss later).


OUTLET B-GRADES are finished sneakers shipped from the factory but failed the quality inspection for official distribution to the retailers-consumers.  Failed units are usually sneakers with minor cosmetic flaws.  Usually if one unit fails the inspection, 100 units before and after are taken out and considered B-Grades i.e.  1 fail unit = 201 B-Grades units to the outlets.



OK, SO WHERE DOES AIR-RANDY FIT IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS?


The best way to describe Air Randy, Marquesole etc is that they cater for the demand that never existed before in the sneaker industry.  Can I coined this term or trademark it? LOL. Anyway, I call these sneakers == GREY SNEAKERS



GREY SNEAKERS?!! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU SMOKING?! 


You see, fake sneakers are one of the commodities found in the black market.  A BLACK MARKET is the trade of goods and services that are illegal in themselves and/or distributed through illegal channels, such as the selling of stolen goods or counterfeits.


A GREY MARKET is the trade of a commodity through distribution channels which, while legal, are unofficial, unauthorized, or unintended by the original manufacturer. The term grey economy, however, refers to workers being paid under the table, without paying income taxes etc. It is sometimes referred to as the underground economy or "hidden economy".


So thats why I call them GREY SNEAKERS.  It’s not fake because its authentic materials etc but not legit because it is un-authorised, un-sanctioned by Nike.  These dont "exist" in a way because on paper these "excess units" (see factory B-Grades) are shown as defects and/or write offs in the manufacturing cost of the Chinese OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturers) when Nike does an audit.


Please picture this scenario.


1.  Jordan Brand meeting in Jan 2011, OK’s the retro of the Air Jordan III in Holiday 2011.  JB instructed the factory to make a ‘sample’.


2.  Sample produced and shown in JB meeting in March 2011.  JB’s approved the sample.  


3.  The sample and ‘TECH PACK’ are given to the OEM factory in June 2011 for mass production of say 1000 units for $XXX money.


4.  The OEM factory was given 3 months from July to September 2011 to produce 1000 units. 


5.  The OEM factory allows OVERRUNS to compensate for possible faulty, defected units or Factory B-Grades. Therefore the factory produces 1000 units + OVERRUN units.


6.  The OEM shows these OVERRUNS in the manufacturing cost as write-offs so on paper when Nike does an audit these are considered ‘destroyed’.


7.  The OEM instead of ‘destroying’ the write-offs instead sell these units for extra $XXX. This is where Air-Randy etc comes in.


8.  Usually the Air Randys get the first batch or the run of units thus the sneakers may look slighty different (see Variant as well) and different packaging and accessories (e.g. the shoe horn used is from previous stock).


9.  Air Randy sells these units in July and September online to us, sneaker afficianados, which is the same timeline at the production time at the factory. THUS out in the streets months in advance of the official release date.


10.  Once the OEM finished the order and shipped the 1000 units, they can be greedy and sell the TECH PACKS and SAMPLE to the counterfeit industry.


11.  JB received the 1000 units in the warehouse in October. Looks for any potential outlet B-Grade units then distribute the remainder to the retailers for the Dec 2011 Holiday release.


Don’t be naïve to think that the Triads etc are not a part of this.  They do in the Black Market but they are keeping an eye at the Grey Market as well.  



NIKE SHOULD DO SOMETHING!


NOPE!  This is the tradeoff for Nike outsourcing their intellectual property to countries with little or even no regard to patents/trademarks, brand protection and lax labour practices in the name of maximizing profits.  


At the end of the day, Nike is not pursuing the Grey Market Merchants of the sneaker world like Air Randys and Marqueesoles. WHY?


1.  It hardly put a dent on the $$$ billions gross sale profit of Nike


2. Sneakers worn out in the street months in advance of the release are UNPAID PUBLICITY and MARKETING.  Nike is really a marketing company as well.
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Best post in this thread.


Anyone remotely interested in this topic needs to read this.
 
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I posted that numerous times & da uninformed

At da time dismissed it..glad everyone now is up

To speed on grey markets.
 
QBoogie said:
how can you confirm that ?
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Well this is how it happened

1. Air Randys site went "under construction"

2. Start posting on his facebook page "follow our friends at sole-up"

3. Air Randy denies being sole-up, promises site will be back soon.

4. Air Randy's site/facebook page disappear. Email becomes in active

5. All that remains is sole-up, which ironically has the same inventory as Air Randy.

Conclusion Air Randy = Sole-up

Realistically, when/if things get too hot for Sole-up Air randy will show up again like he does every 5-6 years or so.
 
JohnNguyenFTW said:
i find it funny that people complain about the patent cut on GM XI's, when the retailed pairs can have different cuts on the left and right shoe... look at the stitching above the heel

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Yes sir! So when I hear about the mistakes made which is why a pair isn't authentic, it doesn't mean jack to me. On my cool grey 11 and black/red 11, my 23 is slanted, not straight up and down....yet, these pairs came from NDC and Footaction.
 
jacksodk said:
Yes sir! So when I hear about the mistakes made which is why a pair isn't authentic, it doesn't mean jack to me. On my cool grey 11 and black/red 11, my 23 is slanted, not straight up and down....yet, these pairs came from NDC and Footaction.
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Most of the people who say that there are "quality issues" with GM all 11s are by no means experts. Im sure their first pair was either the Breds from last year or some concords they picked up on ebay and they are just overly proud of their new found "grail" to give credit to anything other than what they have. Anyone who has had a pair of 11s from 2000 onward knows that not only do the shoes vary from release to release but from pair to pair across the releases. But you wouldnt know that if all you have to go off of is a pair of breds.

Sorry to sound like one of those "elitist" sneaker heads but i actually own/owned a majority of the 11s from all of the release from the past decade or so, as well as 13s, and 1s. I would say those models are ones that i am especially familiar with. And i am almost certain that any sneakerhead who has owned several releases of a certain model over the years gains a certain level of familiarity with that shoe and it becomes second nature to know if something is truly "off" with a shoe or if its just your average variation. But hey, what do i know. I joined NT last month so i must not be knowledgeable 
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jdfrenchbread23 said:
Most of the people who say that there are "quality issues" with GM all 11s are by no means experts. Im sure their first pair was either the Breds from last year or some concords they picked up on ebay and they are just overly proud of their new found "grail" to give credit to anything other than what they have. Anyone who has had a pair of 11s from 2000 onward knows that not only do the shoes vary from release to release but from pair to pair across the releases. But you wouldnt know that if all you have to go off of is a pair of breds.

Sorry to sound like one of those "elitist" sneaker heads but i actually own/owned a majority of the 11s from all of the release from the past decade or so, as well as 13s, and 1s. I would say those models are ones that i am especially familiar with. And i am almost certain that any sneakerhead who has owned several releases of a certain model over the years gains a certain level of familiarity with that shoe and it becomes second nature to know if something is truly "off" with a shoe or if its just your average variation. But hey, what do i know. I joined NT last month so i must not be knowledgeable 
ohwell.gif
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Right with you. Been collecting before it was a fad since the early 90's. You can't show me different materials, stitching all wrong, and just blatant errors mistakes ( check differences like how to tell an authentic lv purse...hey don't judge, I have a wife) then I don't want to hear nothing about glue stains, glue smells and quality of work because all my authentics have these issues. Think about it. Paint cracking almost immediately on 3's and 4's, my 88 cements, cement 4's and 5 all had a loud glue smell and the quality of work is subpar at best on half my collection. Yet, I know none are fake or grey market because they all came from NDC, footlocker, Footaction, Finishline, dtlr or champs. I have seen grey market items before and I know they are real. They just got away from the corporation by some means
 
jacksodk said:
Right with you. Been collecting before it was a fad since the early 90's. You can't show me different materials, stitching all wrong, and just blatant errors mistakes ( check differences like how to tell an authentic lv purse...hey don't judge, I have a wife) then I don't want to hear nothing about glue stains, glue smells and quality of work because all my authentics have these issues. Think about it. Paint cracking almost immediately on 3's and 4's, my 88 cements, cement 4's and 5 all had a loud glue smell and the quality of work is subpar at best on half my collection. Yet, I know none are fake or grey market because they all came from NDC, footlocker, Footaction, Finishline, dtlr or champs. I have seen grey market items before and I know they are real. They just got away from the corporation by some means
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Exactly. Its like once they hear its GM they automatically point out "flaws" existent in every shoe and and identify these flaws exclusively with GM shoes.
 
Jordan brand likes the GM, think about it ......instead of looking at the "official retro" Jordan 4 or Jordan 11 and comparing it to the great quality and shape of the OG pairs. We now look at the Retro as the new baseline of what it's suppose to look like and ignore the fact that the retro is subpar. It's funny, if you hold up a pair of OG 4's and a pair of fake 4's that look similar newbies would think both of them are fake cause they don't look like what came out this year. JB winning.
 
nflowshoe said:
Jordan brand likes the GM, think about it ......instead of looking at the "official retro" Jordan 4 or Jordan 11 and comparing it to the great quality and shape of the OG pairs. We now look at the Retro as the new baseline of what it's suppose to look like and ignore the fact that the retro is subpar. It's funny, if you hold up a pair of OG 4's and a pair of fake 4's that look similar newbies would think both of them are fake cause they don't look like what came out this year. JB winning.
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I don't think you get it fam, and don't take me as being disrespectful either. GM kicks are same quality/build as what is released legitimately through authorized retailers. If anything you put up a pair of GMs next to an OG pair, new shoeheads who don't know any better would think the OG is a fake since it doesn't look like what came out this year.
 
QBoogie said:
I don't think you get it fam, and don't take me as being disrespectful either. GM kicks are same quality/build as what is released legitimately through authorized retailers. If anything you put up a pair of GMs next to an OG pair, new shoeheads who don't know any better would think the OG is a fake since it doesn't look like what came out this year.
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Yeah I get what you are saying. We basicly saying the same point. I know GM pairs come from the same place. I was just trying to say the GM talk makes JB quality the standard and takes the focus off it should be better. Even though its the same shoe..
 
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night and day between retro 11s and 4s and OGs, no way anything made today from nike/jb or their outsourced factories is close to the old materials/quality regardless if the PL cut on the 11s is higher its still not as thick or durable.
 
rcjbbp1313 said:
night and day between retro 11s and 4s and OGs, no way anything made today from nike/jb or their outsourced factories is close to the old materials/quality regardless if the PL cut on the 11s is higher its still not as thick or durable.
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Heads who been in the game a minute can tell. A "Johnny Come Lately" could possibly dispute the legitimacy of the OG since the recent builds are quite different, understand what I'm trying to say? 
 
Same with the 3's.. From the originals to the 2nd retro's to now.. Not the same. Thin leather,etc... Cheap feeling almost.. Very sad..
 
csp23 said:
Same with the 3's.. From the originals to the 2nd retro's to now.. Not the same. Thin leather,etc... Cheap feeling almost.. Very sad..
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And even more bulkier. The thin material and this paint cracking is a killer though. In don't understand why they just want go back to the original method. Cost effective or not, the paint chipping should not be happening after a few general wears.
 
Horrible... Jordan shoes have become about money and not quality.. The crimson's were the first 3's I bought since the 03? Needless to say, if I didn't just walk out of hibbets... I would of swore I bought fake.. It saddens me..
 
Ya'll trippin' on those last 3s they released right before the 88s. I got the white cement, black cement and white/blue and I thought that the quality on all of those was nice. :smokin
 
3's and 4's retros crack very often... however my air flight 89's are still good... willing to bet the air revolution retro won't crack like the retro 3's
 
sneakerp said:
Is this considered grey market or triple A replica? I could spot the fakeness from those pics. Thought grey market pairs were truer to release pairs.
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This looks like someone slapped this together in their basement. For me to consider a GM shoe authentic it has to have the materials of an authentic shoe AND the quality of one as well. This does not. It seems as if this wasnt simply placing a 45 instead of a 23 on the back of a pair of concords. This may have been reconstructed from the ground up. Unprofessionally i might add.
 
well they are samples, dont think they are meant to be like the 2011 release.

just saying. they do look bad but you cant say they should be the same as the retail xi concords
 
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