Grey market discussion thread (Let's keep the discussion mature) Rules on pg 1 please read before yo

[Sneaker P]

Quite possible! Don't let people fool you like they have the "authorized" magic eye. No such thing. Shoes are the same. No way to tell if they came from a retail shop or out the backdoor of a Nike factory. Unless Nike about to start tagging or putting special chips in their shoes, I believe you will always be rolling the dice. Unless you wear a size 16-18

I know its a gamble, but I can take certain measures to avoid unauthorized pairs. Like a receipt and if they have a FTL, FTA, FNL, box tag. Still they could have swapped pairs, but I guess this is how things are going to be with this GM market.

 

[rcjbbp1313]

ill agree its illegal but stealing im not agreeing on only because you think that nike sent the factory ,that they outsourced, the materials they used? get outta here, im sure they tell them what quality materials to use but no way do they provide them with the materials so using their name and logo illegally? yes. stealing their own materials and selling them is not stealing from nike/JB plain and simple so illegal yes but def not stealing unless someone can prove that nike sent them the materials to use i'm not convinced

 

[bigj505]

ill agree its illegal but stealing im not agreeing on only because you think that nike sent the factory ,that they outsourced, the materials they used? get outta here, im sure they tell them what quality materials to use but no way do they provide them with the materials so using their name and logo illegally? yes. stealing their own materials and selling them is not stealing from nike/JB plain and simple so illegal yes but def not stealing unless someone can prove that nike sent them the materials to use i'm not convinced

Who is paying for the materials? Nike or the company Nike is contracted with or is it the workers?
If its Nike or the contracting company then that's definitely stealing. Anyone with common sense knows that. Tell me that the owners of these companies are authorizing such practices and ill sit down and shut up. It's the workers that are doing such things which is stealing whether its stealing from nike or stealing from their company. Do an ethics training and you will learn that even taking tape hope from work is considered stealing.

Quite possible! Don't let people fool you like they have the "authorized" magic eye. No such thing. Shoes are the same. No way to tell if they came from a retail shop or out the backdoor of a Nike factory. Unless Nike about to start tagging or putting special chips in their shoes, I believe you will always be rolling the dice. Unless you wear a size 16-18

I know its a gamble, but I can take certain measures to avoid unauthorized pairs. Like a receipt and if they have a FTL, FTA, FNL, box tag. Still they could have swapped pairs, but I guess this is how things are going to be with this GM market.

at the end of the day, its the thorough inspection that the purchaser does that can determine if the product is acceptable. ill say it again, this stuff is nothing new so all of this anxiety isn't even needed unless you never purchased the shoes before.

the big, big thing here is that these GM shoes are not under any quality control so an inspection can go a long ways.

 

[vood99]

this is funny i literally LOL'd but like it has been said before its not stealing since the products are made after their contracted number of shoes is made and finished so its extra product and since their shoes are selling out first day anyway they are actaully losing zero money so its not stealing from JB as much as paying someone else for something unauthorized, now if i got the same thing for a shoe thats sitting and they are losing money on a shoe that would be horrible, either way its not great

Proper capitalization, punctuation, periods and commas would go along way to effectively help you express your thoughts. I had to re-read that 'ish you typed out to actually 'get' what you're trying to say.

I'll second what bigj505 said and said that there's 'universal' agreement that there is some form of theft or 'stealing' going on with these GM pairs. Earlier on in the thread BigLEscobar dropped some knowledge on how outsourced manufacturing works - you should read up on it.

The factories in this case, are fulfilling their contractual obligations to Nike then going on behind their backs to produce additional units. I don't work for Nike marketing so I don't know their exact reason for producing XXX number of shoes but they have their reasons - whether justifiable or not.

That said I hope these GM pairs force Nike to rethink some of their business processes AND improve the quality of their product.

 

[bigj505]

^^^ why would they tho? this process has been around for years? all nike has managed to do is shut down some of the sites of the distributors instead of halting the actual process. Air Randy has the biggest guts because he used to send the sneaker sites tagged pics of the shoes months before they were slated to release. had a big target on his back.

 

[vood99]

Who is paying for the materials? Nike or the company Nike is contracted with or is it the workers?
If its Nike or the contracting company then that's definitely stealing. Anyone with common sense knows that. Tell me that the owners of these companies are authorizing such practices and ill sit down and shut up. It's the workers that are doing such things which is stealing whether its stealing from nike or stealing from their company. Do an ethics training and you will learn that even taking tape hope from work is considered stealing.

bigj505, I'm willing to bet that it's the Pou Chen management/executives authorizing these GM pairs. Workers in Chinese manufacturing industries have little to no authoritative power to do such things - they are peons/slaves/cogs in the machinery. Again going back to what BigL and Rockdeep/NikeDealer said, the business models for outsourced sneaker manufacturing have changed and the margins vary for each model or 'brand'. Again, whether it's Pou Chen management as a whole or a few 'rogue' executives - they see the potential for profit and their capitalizing on it.

 

[bigj505]

^^^ workers for me = every one in the company minus the owners, or whomever pays the bills.

if an executive is giving the OK, that still means stealing since its stealing from the company as an entity. we all know that these materials are written off as whatever they feel works, ie damaged, destroyed, etc but that doesn't change the bottom line that materials are used that the company purchased for personal means.

 

[thegamemodo9]

that was a terrible example.

I have one that you may be able to relate to. Im sure people will not agree.

If you work for McDonalds and sell a Quarter Pounder with cheese to an customer, the item is an authentic, sanctioned good.
If you work for McDonalds and go to the back, put together a Quarter Pounder, then GIVE a Quarter Pounder to someone you know, it is not a sanctioned good.

Both are made with the same materials and from the same source.

Would this be considered a Fake Quarter Pounder?

I want a Quarter Pounder now.

 

[jecca650]

I've been following one of the websites that some of you GM heads are buying from and saw those "authentic" true blue 3s they were selling for $120. Now the rep for them put up a video on youtube saying that the shoes they sent out to everyone were not authentic and were "perfect" fakes lol. "25 dollar off next purchase" is what theyre compensating buyers with.

 

[rcjbbp1313]

I'm probably wrong about a lot of this stuff. Sorry for the bad punctuation and such I didnt mean to be so bad about that (I'm used to using Outlook all day). If nike/JB didn't want this to happen then they probably should produce more pairs of the shoes they know sell out so that so many people wouldnt have to buy elsewhere. I do believe it is wrong and stealing but somewhere along the lines i also believe that it is like buying something stolen from a pawn shop. Whether the pawn shop knew it was stolen or not is not your problem and if you want the product and the price is right why worry about the rest of it? It is not like the factory contacts us and says they have these and are going out the back door as unauthorized right? If so then yes that is horrible but when others imply they are real and i buy them as a customer i dont give a rats butt who made them as long as they "look" real and have the same materilas so why care so much?

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

^^^ dude, its stealing. I think everyone but you agree to that.

The materials are stolen from Nike and sold without Nike's OK to do so.

the only thing being stolen is nikes intellectual property. Meaning the design of the shoe. That belongs to Nike. If Nike request 100 shoes to be produced. Those shoes that are made and the the materials that it took to make those 100 shoes are nikes property. And nothing else. Nike doesn't own the factories that make their shoes they just contract them so they can't be held liable for the workers and the conditions they work in. These manufacturers aquire (purchase) the Nike approved (not Nike own) material in bulk from what ever factories or manufacters that produce the raw materials, or the factories that Nike contracted makes them in house.

Bottom line is this:
1. Nike owns the design of the shoe aka intellectual property.
2. Nike only owns the shoes that they have made under contract.

Everything else is technically owned by the factory and they are "free" to do with them whatever they please.

I speak from my own experience working in manufacturing as a engineer.

 

[rcjbbp1313]

the only thing being stolen is nikes intellectual property. Meaning the design of the shoe. That belongs to Nike. If Nike request 100 shoes to be produced. Those shoes that are made and the the materials that it took to make those 100 shoes are nikes property. And nothing else. Nike doesn't own the factories that make their shoes they just contract them so they can't be held liable for the workers and the conditions they work in. These manufacturers aquire (purchase) the Nike approved (not Nike own) material in bulk from what ever factories or manufacters that produce the raw materials, or the factories that Nike contracted makes them in house.

Bottom line is this:
1. Nike owns the design of the shoe aka intellectual property.
2. Nike only owns the shoes that they have made under contract.

Everything else is technically owned by the factory and they are "free" to do with them whatever they please.

I speak from my own experience working in manufacturing as a engineer.

this was pretty much what i said in a nut shell and got flamed but im glad someone else said it as well. only the shoes they contractually made are nikes everything else has the shoes design stolen but the materials were never nikes to begin with.

 

[madamimadam]

I've been following one of the websites that some of you GM heads are buying from and saw those "authentic" true blue 3s they were selling for $120. Now the rep for them put up a video on youtube saying that the shoes they sent out to everyone were not authentic and were "perfect" fakes lol.

"25 dollar off next purchase" is what theyre compensating buyers with.

saw this too and know exactly what you're talking about. But it was easy to tell that something was up with those true blues right from the pictures they had posted on the website.

 

[madamimadam]

Those are reps, not grey market corks.

 

[jacksodk]

saw this too and know exactly what you're talking about. But it was easy to tell that something was up with those true blues right from the pictures they had posted on the website.

Smh. You can look at the site and tell. Do research people, stay with reputable sites and feedback and please use paypal

 

[bigj505]

the only thing being stolen is nikes intellectual property. Meaning the design of the shoe. That belongs to Nike. If Nike request 100 shoes to be produced. Those shoes that are made and the the materials that it took to make those 100 shoes are nikes property. And nothing else. Nike doesn't own the factories that make their shoes they just contract them so they can't be held liable for the workers and the conditions they work in. These manufacturers aquire (purchase) the Nike approved (not Nike own) material in bulk from what ever factories or manufacters that produce the raw materials, or the factories that Nike contracted makes them in house.

Bottom line is this:
1. Nike owns the design of the shoe aka intellectual property.
2. Nike only owns the shoes that they have made under contract.

Everything else is technically owned by the factory and they are "free" to do with them whatever they please.

I speak from my own experience working in manufacturing as a engineer.

this was pretty much what i said in a nut shell and got flamed but im glad someone else said it as well. only the shoes they contractually made are nikes everything else has the shoes design stolen but the materials were never nikes to begin with.

So again, stealing is stealing.

Has it been confirmed that the actual owners of the factory/contracting company are the ones giving orders to produce additional items? If its higher ups, then its still stealing since you are stealing the materials from the factory's inventory. I said this before but I guess that was missed huh?

 

[castomere]

These are replicas, not grey market pairs. Just want to show you how good the Chinese are.

Mods, please remove if this is not allowed.

 

[rcjbbp1313]

So again, stealing is stealing.

Has it been confirmed that the actual owners of the factory/contracting company are the ones giving orders to produce additional items? If its higher ups, then its still stealing since you are stealing the materials from the factory's inventory. I said this before but I guess that was missed huh?

since nobody knows that answer on these forums we dont know, so it could be that the owners are making a profit or the managers/ higher ups are making some back door shoes, im guessing the factory owners are doing it since im sure they would notice the loss of lots of materials to make these unauthorized pairs so yeah stealing is stealing but again whos to blame? the people selling the unauthorized pairs and the ones buying them directly from those factories. After that they are being represented as authentic and nobody else is responsible unless told they are grey market shoes before they buy them

 

[bigj505]

So again, stealing is stealing.

Has it been confirmed that the actual owners of the factory/contracting company are the ones giving orders to produce additional items? If its higher ups, then its still stealing since you are stealing the materials from the factory's inventory. I said this before but I guess that was missed huh?

since nobody knows that answer on these forums we dont know, so it could be that the owners are making a profit or the managers/ higher ups are making some back door shoes, im guessing the factory owners are doing it since im sure they would notice the loss of lots of materials to make these unauthorized pairs so yeah stealing is stealing but again whos to blame? the people selling the unauthorized pairs and the ones buying them directly from those factories. After that they are being represented as authentic and nobody else is responsible unless told they are grey market shoes before they buy them

dude, my back and forward with you was based off you saying its not stealing but yet you reverse course. at the same time, the loss of materials wouldn't be noticed by the big wigs if the management is "erroring out" the inventory.

 

[rcjbbp1313]

dude, my back and forward with you was based off you saying its not stealing but yet you reverse course. at the same time, the loss of materials wouldn't be noticed by the big wigs if the management is "erroring out" the inventory.

im not trying to go back in forth, someone is stealing at some point but also at a certain point the shoes (if you cant 100% identify them as GM) are fair game and unless someone tells u they are GM we cant really blame anyone for buying them, yes it is wrong and just as wrong actually more wrong than fakes since you can obviously tell the difference with fakes. this new GM thing is crazy but i also see it in the way that this wouldnt be a problem at all if resellers of authentic authorized shoes werent ruining the hobby and making it hard for EVERYONE to get a pair of GR shoes which is rediculous. in the end wrong is wrong but if i get duped i wont cry cuz i dont cop to resell. Actually if you think about it they are quinching a little more of the thirst that JB refuses to fill.

 

[shoegamenutz]

Everyone should read specially grey market area.

SO WHICH ONE IS WHICH?

FAKE - by definition means not authentic or genuine. Fake product is the term used for the illegal copying and manufacturing of name-brand products. In also goes by the other names like imitation, replicas, knockoffs or bootleg. BOOTLEGGING is to produce, reproduce and distribute without authorization or license. COUNTERFEIT is an imitation with intent of fraudulently passing it off as genuine. In essence Fake is a poor DUPLICATE of the genuine product.

For example, a Fake Jordan IV starts by obtaining an authentic Jordan IV (normally smuggled out from the original factory) to reverse engineer, make a mould and use inferior direct and indirect materials in the build. If you reproduce more Fake Jordan IV for distribution then you are BOOTLEGGING. If you intend to pass your FAKE Jordan IV as genuine, then you are COUNTERFEITING.

VARIANT is a sneaker with slight variation in the official product. Un-released official colorways that is not distributed to the public are also called Variants (like team college sneakers for players).

FACTORY VARIANTS can either be authentic (will discuss later) or fakes made to look different at factory level i.e. colorways or materials. Variants came into prominence in the sneaker hobby after Jordan retired for the 2nd time with the release of the Jordan XV. What’s ironic is variants pave way to Customization of sneakers and in a way, Nike ID.

HYBRIDS are sneakers made from two or more models fused together. In the 80s especially in Asia before Nike gave distribution rights, retailers buy straight from the factories. Any sneakers damaged in transit are fixed and glued together often times resulting in a sneaker with a different top or bottom. So these sneakers are usually one-offs and not necessarily fakes, it’s just the result of the retailer not wanting to lose a sale. Again, ironically, hybrids pave way to Nike fusions.

FACTORY SECONDS means imperfections found on the finish product which is also same as B-GRADES. B-Grades are sneakers that fail the quality inspection. There are two kinds of B-Grades.

FACTORY B-GRADES are sneakers that didn’t make the final cut in the manufacturing process i.e. factory, before shipment to the warehouse for distribution. Usually these sneakers are considered faulty and ‘written off’ (will discuss later).

OUTLET B-GRADES are finished sneakers shipped from the factory but failed the quality inspection for official distribution to the retailers-consumers. Failed units are usually sneakers with minor cosmetic flaws. Usually if one unit fails the inspection, 100 units before and after are taken out and considered B-Grades i.e. 1 fail unit = 201 B-Grades units to the outlets.


OK, SO WHERE DOES AIR-RANDY FIT IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS?

The best way to describe Air Randy, Marquesole etc is that they cater for the demand that never existed before in the sneaker industry. Can I coined this term or trademark it? LOL. Anyway, I call these sneakers == GREY SNEAKERS


GREY SNEAKERS?!! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU SMOKING?!

You see, fake sneakers are one of the commodities found in the black market. A BLACK MARKET is the trade of goods and services that are illegal in themselves and/or distributed through illegal channels, such as the selling of stolen goods or counterfeits.

A GREY MARKET is the trade of a commodity through distribution channels which, while legal, are unofficial, unauthorized, or unintended by the original manufacturer. The term grey economy, however, refers to workers being paid under the table, without paying income taxes etc. It is sometimes referred to as the underground economy or "hidden economy".

So thats why I call them GREY SNEAKERS. It’s not fake because its authentic materials etc but not legit because it is un-authorised, un-sanctioned by Nike. These dont "exist" in a way because on paper these "excess units" (see factory B-Grades) are shown as defects and/or write offs in the manufacturing cost of the Chinese OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturers) when Nike does an audit.

Please picture this scenario.

1. Jordan Brand meeting in Jan 2011, OK’s the retro of the Air Jordan III in Holiday 2011. JB instructed the factory to make a ‘sample’.

2. Sample produced and shown in JB meeting in March 2011. JB’s approved the sample.

3. The sample and ‘TECH PACK’ are given to the OEM factory in June 2011 for mass production of say 1000 units for $XXX money.

4. The OEM factory was given 3 months from July to September 2011 to produce 1000 units.

5. The OEM factory allows OVERRUNS to compensate for possible faulty, defected units or Factory B-Grades. Therefore the factory produces 1000 units + OVERRUN units.

6. The OEM shows these OVERRUNS in the manufacturing cost as write-offs so on paper when Nike does an audit these are considered ‘destroyed’.

7. The OEM instead of ‘destroying’ the write-offs instead sell these units for extra $XXX. This is where Air-Randy etc comes in.

8. Usually the Air Randys get the first batch or the run of units thus the sneakers may look slighty different (see Variant as well) and different packaging and accessories (e.g. the shoe horn used is from previous stock).

9. Air Randy sells these units in July and September online to us, sneaker afficianados, which is the same timeline at the production time at the factory. THUS out in the streets months in advance of the official release date.

10. Once the OEM finished the order and shipped the 1000 units, they can be greedy and sell the TECH PACKS and SAMPLE to the counterfeit industry.

11. JB received the 1000 units in the warehouse in October. Looks for any potential outlet B-Grade units then distribute the remainder to the retailers for the Dec 2011 Holiday release.

Don’t be naïve to think that the Triads etc are not a part of this. They do in the Black Market but they are keeping an eye at the Grey Market as well.


NIKE SHOULD DO SOMETHING!

NOPE! This is the tradeoff for Nike outsourcing their intellectual property to countries with little or even no regard to patents/trademarks, brand protection and lax labour practices in the name of maximizing profits.

At the end of the day, Nike is not pursuing the Grey Market Merchants of the sneaker world like Air Randys and Marqueesoles. WHY?

1. It hardly put a dent on the $$$ billions gross sale profit of Nike

2. Sneakers worn out in the street months in advance of the release are UNPAID PUBLICITY and MARKETING. Nike is really a marketing company as well.


SO ARE THEY GOOD OR BAD?

These sneaker merchants see a market for these grey sneakers and they capitalise on it. It wise business move I say because if Air Randy dont, someone else will. If they stay in the grey market then IMO its all good but if they are doing counterfeiting then HATE HATE.

Again it really is a fine line. In the end we THE CONSUMER WINS because WE HAVE A CHOICE. However its CAVEAT EMPTOR. Let the buyer beware. IT IS WHAT IT IS.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

im not trying to go back in forth, someone is stealing at some point but also at a certain point the shoes (if you cant 100% identify them as GM) are fair game and unless someone tells u they are GM we cant really blame anyone for buying them, yes it is wrong and just as wrong actually more wrong than fakes since you can obviously tell the difference with fakes. this new GM thing is crazy but i also see it in the way that this wouldnt be a problem at all if resellers of authentic authorized shoes werent ruining the hobby and making it hard for EVERYONE to get a pair of GR shoes which is rediculous. in the end wrong is wrong but if i get duped i wont cry cuz i dont cop to resell. Actually if you think about it they are quinching a little more of the thirst that JB refuses to fill.

As a consumer you're only at fault if you buy them knowing they are grey market. But the factory owners, if they sanction the production, are infringing on nikes intellectual property and stealing.

 

[doyung9]

Sounds like a bunch of guys who've given their time and money to Nike are upset that others are getting the same thing with way less effort.

It's a cruel world, yo.

 

[ninjahood]

Sounds like a bunch of guys who've given their time and money to Nike are upset that others are getting the same thing with way less effort.

It's a cruel world, yo.

 

[guvnor]

So before I take the chance can someone tell me, if I get a pair of bred 4s from rstor, they're gonna be on point? Same materials and feel exactly the same on foot as an official 4?