Has Allen Iverson's career been underrated?

[im not you]

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Originally Posted by CP1708

airmaxpenny1 wrote:

---

Iverson last real season was 07-08, a season where he averaged 26.4 ppg while shooting 46% from the field, on a 50 win team. And people want this guy to come off the bench...I would feel disrespected if I was Ivo as well.

I will say this one time only, then I'm leavin this thread. I took the heat in the last one Dirk and Mike, ya'll's turn.

Teams want him to come off the bench because AI's game is not conducive to winning in the NBA.

Clearly, he is a lot better then many many other guards out there. But he dominates the ball so incredibly much and takes so many off balance 21 footers that a typical offense can not succeed.

It is NOT that the league hates him. It is NOT that there is some vendetta against him, teams just simply realize what his fanboys do not, pounding the ball into the floor for 20 seconds and then throwing up a contested jumper against a bigger defender is not a good look. At all. It does not work. Period.

If he came off the bench, he could run around out there in spurts and get buckets, which he of course can still do, but the coach would be able to bring him out and put the starters back in and not mess up their rhythm or the total goal of the offense. As an example, Sasha Vujacic comes in and just shoots. He doesn't do anything else, he just shoots for 3-4 minutes and then goes back to the bench. AI is a billion times better player then Sasha, but that is what teams want from AI, a specified role for him to deliver in. And he won't abide by it. He won't accept it. He wants a team to give him the reins and let him run around and do whatever he wants for 40 minutes a night. No team, coach, or GM is going to do that. None

The second AI says publicly that he would relish the chance to come off the bench and score at will for short stretches like a Vinnie Johnson did, 10-12 teams would line up and call him.

It's really that simple.

76ers, Charlotte, Knicks, Nets, Cleveland Heat, Rockets, Pacers...there is no reason AI couldn't be putting work in on one of those squads.


See this is a common misconception.

Is AI a better player than Lou Williams, Raymond Felton, Chris Duhon, Mo Williams, Mario Chalmers, Aaron Brooks, and TJ Ford? Is he better than Mike Conley? Hesure is....even at 34. hell...honestly if you tell Iverson and OJ Mayo they both can have 25+ shots per game...their #s probably would look very identical.Again...that never was the issue. The problem is...why feature him in your starting lineup? He's not going to put ANY of those teams over the hump...so whyhinder those young guys development and mess with chemistry? If I'm the GM of the Sixers...I know AI might give me more than Lou Williams...but why am Igoing to *+%@ up a 20 something year olds development when the 34 year old isn't going to give me anything substantially better in the win/loss column?

The only team that had absolutely nothing to lose in acquiring Allen Iverson was the Knicks...to everyone else he was a huge risk.

 

[airmaxpenny1]

I agree once again, but in a league where teams are almost half of the teams are losing money, including many that I just listed, why not bring in AI, someonewho is going to undeniably put people in the stands. Maybe I'm the only one, but I believe AI could help someone like Lou Williams develop in the long run.If Lou Williams is AI lite, why not have him learn from the guy who did it best. You aren't contending for anything this year anyway.

And I know people say look at Denver without AI but JR Smith was a guy who was traded twice until he got to Denver. While he definitly picked up a couple ofAI's bad habits as well, he picked up a few good one too.

 

[durden7]

I think he's greatly overrated.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it he's the most overrated player of this era.

 

[nychiphophippo]

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

And I know people say look at Denver without AI but JR Smith was a guy who was traded twice until he got to Denver. While he definitly picked up a couple of AI's bad habits as well, he picked up a few good one too.

Iverson did not teach JR how to pull up from 5 feet behind the 3 point line, how to jump extremely high, or be athletic. If I saw JR constantlydoing Iverson like crossovers I'd be able to see where ur coming from.

And CP said everything that I came in here to say about the current situtation with AI. I think at the moment his career is being underrated because of all ofthe recent problems he's had, but once its all said and done and he officially retires we'll remember his greatness more than we remember thedetroit/memphis situation and rate him right where he belongs as a hall of famer, one of the greatest scorers, and a player who was unlike any we had seenbefore he came into the league and might never see again in our lifetime.

 

[iknowrap]

who yall comparing his career to?

Less than Isiah Thomas more than Gary Payton...fair enough to me...and both of them got rings

 

[d723]

Originally Posted by IKnowRap

who yall comparing his career to?

Less than Isiah Thomas more than Gary Payton...fair enough to me...and both of them got rings

GP is my favorite point guard ever, but he was totally handed that ring.

 

[mrdills]

Originally Posted by Durden7


I think he's greatly overrated.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it he's the most overrated player of this era.

qft

 

[kdawg]

I've just never liked the guy. Never liked his attitude and the fact that he thought he was good enough - the "practice" thing underlines that.Sure, he played hard - but that's to be expected. Everyone wants to win.

It makes me sad watching his college or early NBA highlights - he could have been great. He has all the tools but just couldn't get it into his thick headhow best to play a team sport. He's had some great coaches too but he always knew better.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have shot the ball ever - but he could have been a PG in the mold of Isaiah who is undeniably a better player.

He could have been great.

 

[cedric ceballos 1995 lakers]

Originally Posted by D723

Originally Posted by IKnowRap

who yall comparing his career to?

Less than Isiah Thomas more than Gary Payton...fair enough to me...and both of them got rings

GP is my favorite point guard ever, but he was totally handed that ring.

gp did his part, he hit the game winner in game 3 of the finals and i remember him getting in odoms head on that christmas 2005 game.

 

[fro b giant]

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Can I ask a question...What other hall of famer, someone who clearly has something left in the tank, has been treated the way Ai had? Stockton was never asked to come off the bench, nor Malone, nor Robinson, nor Pippen. The only guys you really saw doing that were Ewing, Payton and Olajuwon, and they were considerably older and more washed up than Iverson is. Considering last season was a mockery, Iverson last real season was 07-08, a season where he averaged 26.4 ppg while shooting 46% from the field, on a 50 win team. And people want this guy to come off the bench...I would feel disrespected if I was Ivo as well.

I would say that if nobody will give him a job then no team has a need/want for him. I don't know if it's because he is asking too much money, Idon't know if they don't want to deal with a player that doesn't want to be used in the best interest of the team (according to coaches/higherups). One thing I will say is that whatever the reason, there is a reason. I could see your argument if another teamsigns him, but your argument kinda goes out the door when even the Knicks won't take him

Really if the Knicks don't take him then who will? They must have saw something that made them change their minds about bringing him on. I will also saythat he is a big reason why the Nuggets weren't winning. The ball often times will get stuck in his hands and they didn't need another scorer thatcould create his own baskets. They need one, and another person that can create baskets for other players. Now he did spen most of his career as that guy that was the leader, the go to, but he isn't that anymore and he doesn't realize it. He feels like he is that guythat can lead a team, the problem is nobody else in the NBA sees that.

Not taking away anything from his career because people would kill to have a career such as his, but I don't think he was underrated as a player. I thinkhe got the due credit for what he has done in the league.

 

[goukiteg]

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Can I ask a question...What other hall of famer, someone who clearly has something left in the tank, has been treated the way Ai had? Stockton was never asked to come off the bench, nor Malone, nor Robinson, nor Pippen. The only guys you really saw doing that were Ewing, Payton and Olajuwon, and they were considerably older and more washed up than Iverson is. Considering last season was a mockery, Iverson last real season was 07-08, a season where he averaged 26.4 ppg while shooting 46% from the field, on a 50 win team. And people want this guy to come off the bench...I would feel disrespected if I was Ivo as well.

Iverson has always refused to come off the bench. In the 2004 season, he refused to play in a game because Chris Ford informed Iverson he wouldcome off the bench for a game or two after recoverying from a back injury. He replied with, with things like "I'm a starter. I'm not a sixth man.How many starters you know come off the bench after returning from an injury." That same season Tim Duncan came off the bench from an injury. Have younoticed it wasn't what was conducive for the team? It was what's best for Iverson, the individual. That's what its always been about. He'snever been about winning at all cost. Iverson first, team secondary.

"I'm a starter. I've been a starter here for eight years. I'm not a sixth man," Iverson said after the game. "I'm a starter. I know in this league ... if someone comes back from an injury, if he's a starter he starts. What's the difference? If you're going to cut my time down, cut my time down. It doesn't make any difference. I'm a starter."

"I do not know any franchise players that come off the bench. I do not know any Olympian that comes off the bench," he said. "I do not know any All-Star that comes off the bench. I do not know any former MVP that comes off the bench. I do not know any three-time scoring champion that comes off the bench. I do not know any first-team or all-NBA (player) that comes off the bench. Why Allen Iverson? Why should I come off the bench?"

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by goukiteg

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Can I ask a question...What other hall of famer, someone who clearly has something left in the tank, has been treated the way Ai had? Stockton was never asked to come off the bench, nor Malone, nor Robinson, nor Pippen. The only guys you really saw doing that were Ewing, Payton and Olajuwon, and they were considerably older and more washed up than Iverson is. Considering last season was a mockery, Iverson last real season was 07-08, a season where he averaged 26.4 ppg while shooting 46% from the field, on a 50 win team. And people want this guy to come off the bench...I would feel disrespected if I was Ivo as well.

Iverson has always refused to come off the bench. In the 2004 season, he refused to play in a game because Chris Ford informed Iverson he would come off the bench for a game or two after recoverying from a back injury. He replied with, with things like "I'm a starter. I'm not a sixth man. How many starters you know come off the bench after returning from an injury." That same season Tim Duncan came off the bench from an injury. Have you noticed it wasn't what was conducive for the team? It was what's best for Iverson, the individual. That's what its always been about. He's never been about winning at all cost. Iverson first, team secondary.

"I'm a starter. I've been a starter here for eight years. I'm not a sixth man," Iverson said after the game. "I'm a starter. I know in this league ... if someone comes back from an injury, if he's a starter he starts. What's the difference? If you're going to cut my time down, cut my time down. It doesn't make any difference. I'm a starter."

"I do not know any franchise players that come off the bench. I do not know any Olympian that comes off the bench," he said. "I do not know any All-Star that comes off the bench. I do not know any former MVP that comes off the bench. I do not know any three-time scoring champion that comes off the bench. I do not know any first-team or all-NBA (player) that comes off the bench. Why Allen Iverson? Why should I come off the bench?"

Bigmike23 wrote:

---

in ever AI thread that comes up from now on this needs to be posted in there

 

[japanair21]

One of the most selfish players of all-time.

 

[fac3 tak30v312]

I don't think his problem has ever truly been about starting games .. but in fact about finishing games ........... if you look at when he started actingout in detroit ..... that all started when he wasn't getting consistent minutes .... and not getting any playing time in the fourth quarter of close gamesthey ended up losing ...... That's when this whole rant about him being a starter started
.
.
When a similar trend started to repeat itself in Memphis .. instead of letting it play out ..... again he started acting out early ..... I highly doubt if ateam comes to him and tells him he's going to have the same role as Ginobilli he'll act out the same way
.
.
Also something else that's not being brought up is that the NBA changed it's rules so that players such as Iverson are a lot less effective .... withthe palming violations as well as different implementations of zone defense .... Unlike what some like to claim that his game is based around dribbling for 20sec ...... his game is actually very similar to that of RIP Hamilton the only difference is that instead of using screnes to create space Iverson usesdribbling and quickness, Ivo is also more of a rhythem/volume shooter ... Another point I'll like to add is if any of you all that are adamantly arguingagainst him watched him play in Detroit you would have noticed that he doesn't get the same calls he used too ...

Btw too add a little more to the RIP comparisons, when Larry Brown was coaching Philly, Iverson got about 30-40 percent of his shots from screnes

 

[fro b giant]

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

Originally Posted by CP1708

airmaxpenny1 wrote:

---

Iverson last real season was 07-08, a season where he averaged 26.4 ppg while shooting 46% from the field, on a 50 win team. And people want this guy to come off the bench...I would feel disrespected if I was Ivo as well.

I will say this one time only, then I'm leavin this thread. I took the heat in the last one Dirk and Mike, ya'll's turn.

Teams want him to come off the bench because AI's game is not conducive to winning in the NBA.

Clearly, he is a lot better then many many other guards out there. But he dominates the ball so incredibly much and takes so many off balance 21 footers that a typical offense can not succeed.

It is NOT that the league hates him. It is NOT that there is some vendetta against him, teams just simply realize what his fanboys do not, pounding the ball into the floor for 20 seconds and then throwing up a contested jumper against a bigger defender is not a good look. At all. It does not work. Period.

If he came off the bench, he could run around out there in spurts and get buckets, which he of course can still do, but the coach would be able to bring him out and put the starters back in and not mess up their rhythm or the total goal of the offense. As an example, Sasha Vujacic comes in and just shoots. He doesn't do anything else, he just shoots for 3-4 minutes and then goes back to the bench. AI is a billion times better player then Sasha, but that is what teams want from AI, a specified role for him to deliver in. And he won't abide by it. He won't accept it. He wants a team to give him the reins and let him run around and do whatever he wants for 40 minutes a night. No team, coach, or GM is going to do that. None

The second AI says publicly that he would relish the chance to come off the bench and score at will for short stretches like a Vinnie Johnson did, 10-12 teams would line up and call him.

It's really that simple.

I agree with most of what you said...but the thing is there are too many crappy teams and players in the league where Iverson could be starting on. 76ers, Charlotte, Knicks, Nets, Cleveland Heat, Rockets, Pacers...there is no reason AI couldn't be putting work in on one of those squads. I'm not saying he should be the main player on a elite team, but the dude can still go out there and single handedly win a game for you. Not many dudes in the league that can do that.


It doesn't work the way you are thinking of it. you can't just play the paper game. The way it looks on paper doesn't tell the wholestory, meaning, teams can't just plug a guy like Iverson into their team and voila, they get 26 ppg and 2 apg...

The GM and coaches might not want him on their team, tell me something, if you were trying to rebuild or add that extra piece to your team that could make youan 8 or 7 seed would you take Iverson? Before you answer think of your team, they are probably young and impressionable, he could change the moral of the team.Do you want a possible distraction? Would you risk possibly messing up the chemistry and dynamics of your team tobring him on just because of what he has accomplished in the past? This is a "what have you done for melately" league, and they are looking at this guy who just came from a team and didn't like coming off the bench, has a history of being disruptive ifhe doesn't get his way, and wants to start no matter what.

Now tell me again would you bring him onto your team?

I would have to say: "My Iverson you have had a great career, but we cannot use your services. Thanks for your interest."

The problem is the way that he views himself, he still thinks he is the Iverson from Philly. I am sorry he is no longer that, and even if he were, youdon't win championships with teams built like that.

 

[notorious 858]

He was the face of the League while Stern desperately searched for someone else to take Jordan's torch.

Please explain what years were these. AI came into the league in 96 and Jordan's second retirement didn't happen until 98. By 98 Kobe was theapprentice to carry the league. AI had Rebok and thats about it while Kobe had Adidas, McDonald's, Nintendo, Sprite, and Spalding, and was voted into theallstar game as a starter in 98 even though he wasn't even starting for the Lakers back then.

 

[goukiteg]

Originally Posted by fac3 tak30v312

Also something else that's not being brought up is that the NBA changed it's rules so that players such as Iverson are a lot less effective .... with the palming violations as well as different implementations of zone defense .... Unlike what some like to claim that his game is based around dribbling for 20 sec ...... his game is actually very similar to that of RIP Hamilton the only difference is that instead of using screnes to create space Iverson uses dribbling and quickness, Ivo is also more of a rhythem/volume shooter ... Another point I'll like to add is if any of you all that are adamantly arguing against him watched him play in Detroit you would have noticed that he doesn't get the same calls he used too ...

Btw too add a little more to the RIP comparisons, when Larry Brown was coaching Philly, Iverson got about 30-40 percent of his shots from screnes

?

 

[soleoneyez]

I love A.I to death. But he never got it. "It" being that knowledge that the game is bigger than any individual.

Kobe eventually got it....KG got it. I honestly don't think Lebron has it yet (but he is reeeeally close lol) But A.I is clueless.

There is a certain respect for ones craft that you have to have to transcend and become a champion.

Allen is part of the me generation. Some folks gain wisdom as they get older and learn that its bigger than them. At 34 years old, A.I still doesn't seethat.

In that respect, he is extremely overrated because his selfish character has tarnished any individual accolades he has ever gotten.

Some people bow out gracefully, some just physically can't do it anymore.....then you have some like Allen who hang themselves with their own ego.


Overrated.

 

[airjordan jb23]

I wouldn't say underated. He's a hall of fame player, & everyone knows it. It's hard to underate that.

The good he has done in his career has gotten overshadowed as of late though. From the problems in Detroit to Memphis to now not being able to find a team yet.

There is time to fix that, he just has to realize he is at a point where he isn't in his prime anymore. Yes he could still dominate a basketball game, butso can other players his age... but those other players took a lesser role on a winning team. Now all those players who did that have a shot at a ring. Hestill wants to be the go to guy & with most teams either haven't there future set with young guys they wanna develope or a squad with a good mix avets/young players, they don't wanna take the chance on him.

He still wants to be the player he was his whole career... Im sure most players in the league would want that as well, but they go about it differently. He hasa choice to either be on a losing team & score the way he did & play the way he did on Philly, or give up the scoring role & cut his stats &get a shot at a ring. It depends what he wants- to win or to have personal stats still. Only thing is a lot of losing teams have guys they want to develope(Memphis for example).

I don't know, I think he has done the personal stats in his career already... hence the HOF reference. IMO he should give up the numbers & go to acontender. Only thing is it's hard now with his rep from the past 2 teams.

 

[trasoul82]

Originally Posted by SoleOnEyez

I love A.I to death. But he never got it. "It" being that knowledge that the game is bigger than any individual.

Kobe eventually got it....KG got it. I honestly don't think Lebron has it yet (but he is reeeeally close lol) But A.I is clueless.

There is a certain respect for ones craft that you have to have to transcend and become a champion.

Allen is part of the me generation. Some folks gain wisdom as they get older and learn that its bigger than them. At 34 years old, A.I still doesn't see that.

In that respect, he is extremely overrated because his selfish character has tarnished any individual accolades he has ever gotten.

Some people bow out gracefully, some just physically can't do it anymore.....then you have some like Allen who hang themselves with their own ego.


Overrated.

Spoiler

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[blaxoid]

Originally Posted by SoleOnEyez

I love A.I to death. But he never got it. "It" being that knowledge that the game is bigger than any individual.

Kobe eventually got it....KG got it. I honestly don't think Lebron has it yet (but he is reeeeally close lol) But A.I is clueless.

There is a certain respect for ones craft that you have to have to transcend and become a champion.

Allen is part of the me generation. Some folks gain wisdom as they get older and learn that its bigger than them. At 34 years old, A.I still doesn't see that.

In that respect, he is extremely overrated because his selfish character has tarnished any individual accolades he has ever gotten.

Some people bow out gracefully, some just physically can't do it anymore.....then you have some like Allen who hang themselves with their own ego.


Overrated.

Exactly how I feel about him. Anyone who disagrees with the assessment of AI's attitude towards the Team concept is in denial.

 

[grittyman20]

Attitude does not effect what the man HAS done on the court.

He's neither under or overrated...

 

[durden7]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

Attitude does not effect what the man HAS done on the court.

He's neither under or overrated...

His attitude/behavior ON the court is a direction relation to his legacy though.


Which was subpar.

 

[mateen cleaves]

WOW

more like overrated

 

[gko2408]

Originally Posted by CP1708

airmaxpenny1 wrote:

---

Iverson last real season was 07-08, a season where he averaged 26.4 ppg while shooting 46% from the field, on a 50 win team. And people want this guy to come off the bench...I would feel disrespected if I was Ivo as well.

I will say this one time only, then I'm leavin this thread. I took the heat in the last one Dirk and Mike, ya'll's turn.

Teams want him to come off the bench because AI's game is not conducive to winning in the NBA.

Clearly, he is a lot better then many many other guards out there. But he dominates the ball so incredibly much and takes so many off balance 21 footers that a typical offense can not succeed.

It is NOT that the league hates him. It is NOT that there is some vendetta against him, teams just simply realize what his fanboys do not, pounding the ball into the floor for 20 seconds and then throwing up a contested jumper against a bigger defender is not a good look. At all. It does not work. Period.

If he came off the bench, he could run around out there in spurts and get buckets, which he of course can still do, but the coach would be able to bring him out and put the starters back in and not mess up their rhythm or the total goal of the offense. As an example, Sasha Vujacic comes in and just shoots. He doesn't do anything else, he just shoots for 3-4 minutes and then goes back to the bench. AI is a billion times better player then Sasha, but that is what teams want from AI, a specified role for him to deliver in. And he won't abide by it. He won't accept it. He wants a team to give him the reins and let him run around and do whatever he wants for 40 minutes a night. No team, coach, or GM is going to do that. None

The second AI says publicly that he would relish the chance to come off the bench and score at will for short stretches like a Vinnie Johnson did, 10-12 teams would line up and call him.

It's really that simple.


truth bomb.