If you don't have a top 10 QB, give up

Originally Posted by epox12

Originally Posted by Antidope

Originally Posted by epox12

So who are your elite QB's then? Ben is 10-3 in the playoffs, 80-33 in the regular season, 165 TD's to 100 Int's. What constitutes elite? Great regular season numbers? Playoffs numbers? What's your criteria?
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The 5 I just listed, lets not just start throwing around the term Elite to people who dont deserve it. His quarterbacking numbers are average, there are plently of other qbs who consistently put up better numbers than he does year after year. He's a product of his environment IMO especially when it comes to his win loss. He's good, but great no? Elite? No. If he didnt have 2 SB wins he wouldnt be in the convo cause the numbers are really average. He's gonna be the worst QB in the HoF without question.
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So he had nothing to do with those SB wins? It was all the defense and running game but in Eli's case in 07 it was all Eli and had nothing to do with a miracle catch by a back up WR? Ok.
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Didnt say it was all Eli, but he sure has more to do with that Giants win than Ben has to do with his 2.

He was nine of 21 passes for 123 yards and two interceptions; his QB Rating of 22.6 was the lowest in Super Bowl history by a winning quarterback in superbowl XL.

The defense won the superbowl for him the next time, he had an average game with 1 touchdown and one pick.  He didnt win those games, he was just on the team. He had that drive but that was more Arizonas fault. They ran the same play twice on one drive and Arizona didnt stop it, Cromatie chocked
 
Originally Posted by Antidope

Originally Posted by epox12

Originally Posted by Antidope


The 5 I just listed, lets not just start throwing around the term Elite to people who dont deserve it. His quarterbacking numbers are average, there are plently of other qbs who consistently put up better numbers than he does year after year. He's a product of his environment IMO especially when it comes to his win loss. He's good, but great no? Elite? No. If he didnt have 2 SB wins he wouldnt be in the convo cause the numbers are really average. He's gonna be the worst QB in the HoF without question.
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So he had nothing to do with those SB wins? It was all the defense and running game but in Eli's case in 07 it was all Eli and had nothing to do with a miracle catch by a back up WR? Ok.
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Didnt say it was all Eli, but he sure has more to do with that Giants win than Ben has to do with his 2.

He was nine of 21 passes for 123 yards and two interceptions; his QB Rating of 22.6 was the lowest in Super Bowl history by a winning quarterback in superbowl XL.

The defense won the superbowl for him the next time, he had an average game with 1 touchdown and one pick.  He didnt win those games, he was just on the team. He had that drive but that was more Arizonas fault. They ran the same play twice on one drive and Arizona didnt stop it, Cromatie chocked
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Even with that rating of 22.6, his cumulative rating for the playoff run was over 100

[table][tr][td]Postseason[/td] [td]Games[/td][td]Passing[/td][td]Rushing[/td][td]Fumbles[/td] [/tr][tr][td]WK[/td][td]Game Date[/td][td]Opp[/td][td]Result[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]GS[/td] [td]Comp[/td] [td]Att[/td] [td]Pct[/td] [td]Yds[/td] [td]Avg[/td] [td]TD[/td] [td]Int[/td] [td]Sck[/td] [td]SckY[/td] [td]Rate[/td] [td]Att[/td] [td]Yds[/td] [td]Avg[/td] [td]TD[/td] [td]FUM[/td] [td]Lost[/td][/tr][tr][td]18[/td] [td]01/08[/td][td] @ CIN[/td][td] W   31-17 [/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]14[/td][td]19[/td][td]73.7[/td][td]208[/td][td]10.9[/td][td]3[/td][td]0[/td][td]1[/td][td]6[/td][td]148.7[/td][td]4[/td][td]3[/td][td]0.8[/td][td]0[/td][td]--[/td][td]--[/td][/tr][tr][td]
[/td][/tr][tr][td]19[/td] [td]01/15[/td][td] @ IND[/td][td] W   21-18 [/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]14[/td][td]24[/td][td]58.3[/td][td]197[/td][td]8.2[/td][td]2[/td][td]1[/td][td]2[/td][td]14[/td][td]95.3[/td][td]5[/td][td]-3[/td][td]-0.6[/td][td]0[/td][td]--[/td][td]--[/td][/tr][tr][td]
[/td][/tr][tr][td]20[/td] [td]01/22[/td][td] @ DEN[/td][td] W   34-17 [/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]21[/td][td]29[/td][td]72.4[/td][td]275[/td][td]9.5[/td][td]2[/td][td]0[/td][td]2[/td][td]7[/td][td]124.9[/td][td]3[/td][td]12[/td][td]4.0[/td][td]1[/td][td]--[/td][td]--[/td][/tr][tr][td]
[/td][/tr][tr][td]21[/td] [td]02/05[/td][td] SEA[/td][td] W   21-10 [/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]9[/td][td]21[/td][td]42.9[/td][td]123[/td][td]5.9[/td][td]0[/td][td]2[/td][td]1[/td][td]8[/td][td]22.6[/td][td]7[/td][td]25[/td][td]3.6[/td][td]1[/td][td]--[/td][td]--[/td][/tr][tr][td]
[/td][/tr][tr][td]
[/td][td]TOTAL[/td][td]4[/td][td]4[/td][td]58[/td][td]93[/td][td]62.4[/td][td]803[/td][td]8.6[/td][td]7[/td][td]3[/td][td]6[/td][td]35[/td][td]101.7[/td][td]19[/td][td]37[/td][td]1.9[/td][td]2[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][/tr][/table]
 
Originally Posted by Antidope

Originally Posted by epox12

Originally Posted by Antidope


The 5 I just listed, lets not just start throwing around the term Elite to people who dont deserve it. His quarterbacking numbers are average, there are plently of other qbs who consistently put up better numbers than he does year after year. He's a product of his environment IMO especially when it comes to his win loss. He's good, but great no? Elite? No. If he didnt have 2 SB wins he wouldnt be in the convo cause the numbers are really average. He's gonna be the worst QB in the HoF without question.
Click to expand...
So he had nothing to do with those SB wins? It was all the defense and running game but in Eli's case in 07 it was all Eli and had nothing to do with a miracle catch by a back up WR? Ok.
Click to expand...

Didnt say it was all Eli, but he sure has more to do with that Giants win than Ben has to do with his 2.

He was nine of 21 passes for 123 yards and two interceptions; his passer rating of 22.6 was the lowest in Super Bowl history by a winning quarterback in superbowl XL.

The defense won the superbowl for him the next time, he had an average game with 1 touchdown and one pick.  He didnt win those games, he was just on the team. He had that drive but that was more Arizonas fault. They ran the same play twice on one drive and Arizona didnt stop it, Cromatie chocked
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He didn't drive the team down the field for the game winning TD to Santonio Holmes? It was just Arizona choking? Dude you just hate Ben. He may be a douche bag off the field but he is a top QB on the field. You are making Ben sound like he is Trent Dilfer and doesn't make clutch throws in the playoffs to win games and bring his team back when they are down. Btw the Giants defense held the Patriots with the most prolific offense in NFL history to 14 points in that Super Bowl. 
 
Originally Posted by Mez 0ne

You can make an argument between Ben and Eli, you wouldn't be wrong.
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No you can't.  What does Eli have over Ben? 

If stats are your criteria, Eli isn't even the best in the division.  Romo is (#2 active all-time passer rating)

If playoff/Super Bow wins are your criteria, Ben is better.

If stats and playoff/Super Bowl wins are your criteria, Ben has both of those over Eli. 
 
Almost positive if you dont have a Top 10 QB the way it is nowadays.

Stafford & Cam Newton are two QBs I know will eventually be there.

You saw those 49ers? They would of easily won that game even with all those mishaps to go to the chip but Alex Smith...is Alex Smith
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You see those Jets? Almost positive they would of at least made two SB appearances if that bum Sanchez wasn't the starter.

If Jets, 49ers, Ravens even maybe Ariz pick up Manning and he is back to his normal self its going to be a problem for the league....again
 
Nobody ever said Ben was "elite". Pay attention. I said he was a great QB and has given my favorite team more success than any other QB in that same situation. He is in the tier with Eli right below a Rodgers/Brady/Brees. Everyone is agreeing to this but you keep claiming we are all putting him as the best QB in the league or something. We aren't. This is about top ten QBs, he is clearly in that. Lord
 
And if it does say somewhere that Ben is elite, the it was probably the loose definition that included like 6 QBs. I rarely use it but just my preference
 
Originally Posted by dmxfury

Nobody ever said Ben was "elite". Pay attention. I said he was a great QB and has given my favorite team more success than any other QB in that same situation. He is in the tier with Eli right below a Rodgers/Brady/Brees. Everyone is agreeing to this but you keep claiming we are all putting him as the best QB in the league or something. We aren't. This is about top ten QBs, he is clearly in that. Lord
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ding ding ding....ALL OF THIS
 
if stats and playoff/Super Bowl wins are your criteria, Ben has both of those over Eli.  
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Ben does't have better playoff stats than Eli 

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Eli 8 TDs twice in the playoffs ben has never done that, you wan to bring up QB rating?(which is a complete joke do me a favor explain how Eli had a QB rating of 82 in the game sunday and smith had 97!!!) ok Ben career in reg season 92 and playoffs 83.....Eli reg season 82 and playoffs 88......thats the thing Eli like many clutch players step up their game in the playoffs.......

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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Eli does need ring 2[/font]
 
I'm ok with an Eli = Ben discussion, they are close in my mind. Regardless this is about not having a top QB and the era of still being able to win a championship seems to have disappeared.
 
I just want to get that out of the way before I even begin an "argument" with you (an argument which can go either way), so you've said Vick is better than Eli, and now you're saying Romo is since you bring up the QB rating which is an over-rated stat as well......want to get this out of the way.

It has a lot to do with how the argument will go, since that is your mindset going in.
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fyi....Eli Manning had a QB rating of 82 vs the 49ers, and he played terrific consideringthe conditions and the pass attempts, vs arguably the best defense in the L and absolutely killed him....don't look into stats too much when judging quarterbacks. Alex Smith had a higher QB rating that game, you want to sit there and tell me Alex Smith played a better game this past Sunday?
 
Originally Posted by Air273

if stats and playoff/Super Bowl wins are your criteria, Ben has both of those over Eli.  
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Ben does't have better playoff stats than Eli 

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Eli 8 TDs twice in the playoffs ben has never done that, you wan to bring up QB rating?(which is a complete joke do me a favor explain how Eli had a QB rating of 82 in the game sunday and smith had 97!!!) ok Ben career in reg season 92 and playoffs 83.....Eli reg season 82 and playoffs 88......thats the thing Eli like many clutch players step up their game in the playoffs.......

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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Eli does need ring 2[/font]

Good point.  However, the sample size is too small for playoff games to really compare stats like that.  I mean, Eli's been in like 6 or 7 playoff games, right?  If there was a huge difference, then it would be a bigger deal. 
 
Originally Posted by holdupstop23

Originally Posted by DeadsetAce

tebow is great in the 4th quarter if his team is still in it too....just sayin'


and no, not saying tebow is great or on eli's level
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And if Tebow keeps winning games in the 4th quarter during the rest of his career, does it in the playoffs, and wins a Superbowl, then there's no way you can say he's not elite. 
Eli's mostly been in a running offense. The year he has absolutely no running game, he throws for 5000 yds and has the best season of his career. Mind you, this is with a rookie WR, a rookie TE, a POS offensive line, and a POS defense(for most of the year). If that's not elite then you're just dumb.

Unless you're good in those first 3 quarters ala Brady, Peyton, Rodgers. Moreover, Romo puts up huge numbers in the  4th to prove no point
But you're  an   idiot if  you dare contend this.
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Tom Brady has 34 game winning drives, Peyton has 46, Eli has 23, and Romo has 14. 

You're an idiot.


Ben has more. Matt Ryan already has 16. Josh Freeman, Stafford and Sanchez have more than Arod
You've proven nothing besides being able  to name call. Try again.
Originally Posted by Mez 0ne

I know sir.

.....as for Romo, you already know the deal with him, checks down a lot which inflates his completion percentage esp YAC but his issue was never his "stats" per say, its about winning the big game and making the plays to win when it matters most.
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What have Cruz and Nicks been doing for Eli
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Good point.  However, the sample size is too small for playoff games to really compare stats like that.  I mean, Eli's been in like 6 or 7 playoff games, right?  If there was a huge difference, then it would be a bigger deal.  
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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10 games for Eli 14 for Ben, ben has had 1 more playoff season than Eli .........the point about the QB rating stat is not the number its that its higher than his reg season where bens is much lower than his reg season.....i'm not a big qb rating guy.......the stat that i just found out today is that Eli is the only QB that has thrown for at least 8 TDs in the playoffs twice.....ben has never done it neither has john elway and peyton not only did it once it wasnt during his super bowl runs.....in fact peyton won throwing only 3 TDs that year with 7 ints!
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 shocked to learn that today.....only reason i bring this up is people keep saying that eli is here because of his defense which as of late as been amazing.....but shouldnt eli get credit for all these TDs??? i mean rodgers, brees, brady are going to be top 3 in MVP voting for their insane TD-int numbers......Eli in 2 super bowl playoff runs has had better stats than Brady.....[/font]

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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]not enough is said about the season Eli has had with the worst rushing attack in the NFL......i can't find it anywhere but i'm pretty sure i read somewhere this was the worst season or one of his worst seasons with the play action  pass of course that would be a direct result of worst rushing attack... [/font]

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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]o[/font] one more thing about QB rating stat......Eli 8 TDs 1 int this post season brady 6 TDs 2 ints yet Bradys rating is higher 
 
Originally Posted by Air273

if stats and playoff/Super Bowl wins are your criteria, Ben has both of those over Eli.  
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Click to expand...

Ben does't have better playoff stats than Eli 

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Eli 8 TDs twice in the playoffs ben has never done that, you wan to bring up QB rating?(which is a complete joke do me a favor explain how Eli had a QB rating of 82 in the game sunday and smith had 97!!!) ok Ben career in reg season 92 and playoffs 83.....Eli reg season 82 and playoffs 88......thats the thing Eli like many clutch players step up their game in the playoffs.......

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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Eli does need ring 2[/font]



You realize the reason Eli got 8 tds in 07 and 8 tds this season is because of being a wildcard and then a 4th seed. Brady, Peyton, etc. shouldn't be faulted for being able to win their divisions constantly and being top 2 seeds in their conference, which of course causes them to play one less game then a wildcard or a 4th seed.
 
I just find it funny that the same reasons ppl are using to knock ben... And im not a big ben fan nor do I hate him, but for the reasons ppl knock him as a elite qb.. the comming up short and having bad games in big games and playoffs and just being a regular season winner... the stats show the exact same thing for peyton. Only thing is peyton has been doing it longer and has less playoff wins and one less ring. So how can two players who essentially results end the same stat wise etc yet one has more wins and more rings not be elite, yet the guy with a lower % of wins and less rings and has been doing it longer be elite.

It kinda reminds me of the lebron vs kobe argument. But in lebron defense he hasnt been playing nearly as long as kobe or been in a position to win a chip for as long as kobe has. In the case of peyton and other elite qbs, he has had more opportunities, and has been in a position with a team that has been more then capable of winning it all yet consistantly lets his team down with poor play by him personally.
 
Originally Posted by chokeonsmoke

Alex smith has to be in that top ten...I think???
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Don't know if you are being sarcastic but one efficient year and a deep playoff run do not make you top 10.  I am a 9er fan. 
 
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