Is Dwyane Wade the 3rd best SG of all time?

[goldenchild9]

Where's the consistency?

I think you need to look over A.I.'s career again.

He average 25+, 5 + assists, 2+ steals for a decade and the 76ers were perennially in the top half of the EC and in the second round of the playoffs during the AI years.

Wade had multiple first round boots in the prime of his ability and his team went 15-67 in 07-08 due to his penchant for injuries.
From the 98/99 season to the 2002/03 season, Iverson lead the 6ers to 3 ECF semis and 1 NBA Finals appearance.

From the 2006/07 to the 2009/10 season, Wade and the Heat got bumped 3 times in the first round and failed to make the playoffs once.

Where are these make believe histories and careers coming from?

Winning a ring in the NBA really does give fans amnesia.

Son...we handing out awards for making it past the 1st round? Only to turn around and get knocked off in the 2nd round...

This for a supposedly top 3 SG of all time.

Then you mention Wade's penchant for injuries...this dude AI waited until late in the summer after his 01 run to have surgery further hindering the team's progress of duplicating the previous years success.

Now let's talk about Wade's success in the playoff's compared to Iverson's.

He was a rookie in 03. Did not reach playoffs.

03-04 won first round, got beat second round...sound familar?

04-05 went to the ECF only to lose to a Pistons team that had the east on lock for years. Iverson only made it once.

05-06 he's crowned a Champion.

06-07 swept by the Bulls.

07-08 did not make playoffs.

08-09 lost first round to Hawks.

We can stop right there...because AI was irrelevant after 2009.

Still a better resume than AI's. because he got a ring.

First of all I didn't say AI was top 3.

Secondly see those cluster of sweeps, not making the playoffs and losing in the first round?...Thats when Wade was the man of his squad.

Steve Kerr has more rings than Charles Barkley and Patrick Ewing......is he a better player?

And why are you comparing the time frame like Iverson did come into the league 7 seasons before Wade?

You haven't said anything to prove that Wade was a better player than Iverson.

 

[gllahone84]

AI didn't play defense...

Wade does...

Easy.

 

[mertonhanks]

No in order to be a complete scorer you need to be able to shoot the 3 and mid range effectively not just easy dunk and lay up.

Wade like Kobe had better scoring teammates.  Lebron, Bosh, Shaq etc

Ai had Mutumbo and Erick Snow.

Your boxing comparison is way off. This is basketball. In NBA height does matter. How many 5'11 player ever won MVP or reach Finals?

I'd take prime AI over Wade any day of the week.

Layups, dunks, points in the paint are the best points in basketball. You saying Wade gets all his points from these is a compliment to his game, not a takeaway.

And I have said AI is a better shooter. But theres more to the SG position than just shooting jump shots.

Height does matter. And the fact is AI is 5'11, which isnt an argument for him being a better player.

 

[alphawolf]

 

[goldenchild9]

AI didn't play defense...

Wade does...

Easy.

x

Iverson is the only player in league history to snatch 9 or more steals in a playoff game and is tied in second place with MJ for holding the most steals titles with 3.

 

[mertonhanks]

Oh. You posted pictures of the way Wade dresses which has literally everything to do with his abilities as SG on the court. You Win

 

[gllahone84]

x

Iverson is the only player in league history to snatch 9 or more steals in a playoff game and is tied in second place with MJ for holding the most steals titles with 3.

Bruh..playing passing lanes and gambling on defense does not equate to being a solid defender.

MJ and GP are the last guards to win defensive player of the year awards...please don't insult them by putting AI in the same company. That's only If what you're trying to say is Iverson was just as good of a defender as Jordan.

This is my last post in here...because we're talking about a champion (Wade) and a guy that's known more so for his hip hop influence on the game of baskeball (Iverson).

 

[goldenchild9]

x

Iverson is the only player in league history to snatch 9 or more steals in a playoff game and is tied in second place with MJ for holding the most steals titles with 3.

Bruh..playing passing lanes and gambling on defense does not equate to being a solid defender.

MJ and GP are the last guards to win defensive player of the year awards...please don't insult them by putting AI in the same company. That's only If what you're trying to say is Iverson was just as good of a defender as Jordan.

This is my last post in here...because we're talking about a champion (Wade) and a guy that's known more so for his hip hop influence on the game of baskeball (Iverson).

Funny cause that's exactly what D Wade does as well. He has never been a lock down defender in any shape or form.

Is Dwyane Wade an Elite Defender?
April, 24, 2009
4/24/09
10:39
AM ET
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Posted by Kevin Arnovitz

Dwyane Wade averaged 1.67 blocks per 48 minutes this season – far and away the highest rate of any guard in the league. To put that number into perspective, there's a greater gap between #1 Wade and his closest competition, Rasual Butler, than between Butler and the 11th ranked guard, Kobe Bryant. Stats like this -- along with his high steals totals -- have fueled the popular perception that Wade is one of the league's premier defenders, and are probably why he finished third in the Defensive Player of the Year voting, behind only Dwight Howard and LeBron James.

Wade seems like a fairly capable defender who takes a lot of gambles -- sometimes to good effect (the high blocks and steals numbers), and sometimes to his team's detriment. With this in mind, I sat down Sunday night to watch the Heat's playoff opener with the intention of breaking down Wade's defensive performance against Atlanta's best player and Wade's counterpart at shooting guard, Joe Johnson. What better defensive assignment to get an honest read of Wade's talents? Johnson is a big 2 guard who can score in every way imaginable -- shooting from long range off the dribble, posting up smaller guards, driving to the cup, spotting up, etc. He's a handful, and a definitive test for any top defender. Only ... Dwyane Wade wasn't guarding him. That responsibility was left to James Jones.

It seemed strange that a player regarded as one of the league's best defensive guards wouldn't be assigned to cover a playoff opponent's most dangerous offensive threat, but maybe it was merely an attempt by Erik Spoelstra to ration Wade's energy for the offensive end, where he's one of a handful of NBA players who can single-handedly carry his team to a win. Fortunately, Synergy Sports catalogs every possession of the season. Deprived of the Wade-Johnson showdown, I watched a couple hundred clips of Dwyane Wade playing defense, and here are some general observations:

Wade loves to rove the passing lanes -- it's the defining feature of his defensive game. No matter where he is on the court, Wade is almost always playing the ball. Sometimes this strategy produces a steal, but sometimes the ball works its way to Wade's man for an open perimeter jumper, because Wade is busy anticipating an entry pass and is too far away to close on the shot. Wade's likelihood to rove is inversely proportional to how deadly the shooter he's guarding. In a couple of games against the Lakers this season, Wade didn't concern himself with the passing lane while covering Kobe Bryant, but left Trevor Ariza all alone on a couple of occasions trying to anticipate Laker passes from the pinch post.

A fair number of Wade's blocks come on "horror flick" plays: Wade will get caught on a pick or a rub. Just when you think Wade is out of the play, he'll recover, then swoop in for the kill as the shot goes up. Remember that crazy game against Chicago back in March when Wade hit the running three-pointer at the horn in double overtime? Wade blocked a Ben Gordon jumper at a crucial juncture in the final minute of the first OT after catching up to him off a Brad Miller screen.
Because Wade plays so far off his man, he's vulnerable off the dribble, even against guys you wouldn't characterize as slashers like, say, Delonte West. The sequence usually occurs something like this: Wade, on the weak side, is cheating toward the help line. A skip pass to his man leaves Wade in no-man's land, scrambling to close. Wade is lightning quick, so he's actually able to recover and contest the shot -- except that the shooter uses Wade's agility and momentum by driving past him toward the hole.

Cheating doesn't come without risk -- but there's also a great deal of reward. For every instance like the one above when a slower offensive player exploits Wade's willingness to cheat, there's another clip in the archives where a seemingly wide open corner jumper is blocked by Wade as he leaps toward the shooter. Nobody in the game closes daylight quite like D-Wade, and the number of times it happens is astounding.

As a straight-up on-ball defender, Wade likes to go for the strip, and will often pay the price. Bigger guards, like Jason Richardson, will power by him when he reaches, while heady but less athletic players, like Ray Allen and Marquis Daniels, will anticipate Wade's swipe and burst ahead the moment Wade tries to strike. This leaves Miami's back line with a lot to clean up. It's a little confounding because Wade seems well-equipped to guard a player like Daniels without having to gamble.

When Wade foregoes a steal attempt and plays straight-up perimeter defense, he appears to be an above-average defender. He's not the lockdown sort (slow, crafty guards like Andre Miller and Raja Bell are seen taking him off the dribble), but Wade generally does a very nice job of leveling off his man and funneling penetrators to Miami's help defenders.

In the post, whether against Joe Johnson or Paul Pierce, Wade will almost always try to compensate for his lack of size with his leaping ability. He'll play his man very close as he's backed in, anticipate the spin, then time for the block. This produces mixed results, though it's hard to imagine many 6-4 guards who can give up that kind of size, and still challenge a shot on the block. Can you think of a single one?

How does Wade fight through screens when matched up against shooters like Ray Allen? The Boston video shows that he's neither ferocious nor frail -- though this might be more of a reflection of Miami's defensive philosophy than any failure of Wade's part.

Measuring individual defense continues to be one of the basketball world's most difficult tasks. Will we ever be able to determine how much better or worse a defender Dwyane Wade would be if he stopped trying to pick Marquis Daniels' pocket? If Wade concerned himself a little less with the passing lanes and stayed closer to home? Do the volume of steals Wade racks up compensate for the easy baskets generated by his opponents when he gambled and lost?

Advanced stats for defense are very much a work in progress, but those that are available demonstrate Wade to be a solid defender. His defensive rating of 103.7 at Basketball Prospectus. The only wing player with a better defensive rating? James, LeBron. Both 82games.com and Basketball Value show Miami's on court/off court defense to be about 2 3/4 points better per 100 possessions with Wade on the court, also quite good.

The eye test seems to support this. Dwyane Wade might be an unabashed gambler, but over time he's beating the house. It's difficult to watch a series of ten clips of Wade on defense without seeing at least one easy breakaway bucket off a Wade-generated turnover. Whether that makes him the third-best defender in the league is an entirely different conversation, but as guards go, Wade is a defensive asset, one whose presence disrupts offenses, even from the weak side of the floor.

 

[goldenchild9]

Since we're talking about it, heres a classic match up between the 2...

 

[blakep267]

Bruh..playing passing lanes and gambling on defense does not equate to being a solid defender.

MJ and GP are the last guards to win defensive player of the year awards...please don't insult them by putting AI in the same company. That's only If what you're trying to say is Iverson was just as good of a defender as Jordan.

This is my last post in here...because we're talking about a champion (Wade) and a guy that's known more so for his hip hop influence on the game of baskeball (Iverson).

what are you talking about. Iverson is known for the killer crossover. His humongous heart. A 5'11 guard who could score on anybody. fearless etc. Iverson was the best player in the league for a few years. Can you say that about Wade? In his best season, Lebron still won the MVP.

And championships has nothing to do with this convo

 

[JD617]

No he wasn't. 

 

He was never at any point the best player in the league.

Also I like the idea that being 5'11" is a positive thing for a basketball player.

 

[goldenchild9]

Iverson was the best player in the league for a few years.

No he wasn't.   

He was never at any point the best player in the league.

Also I like the idea that being 5'11" is a positive thing for a basketball player.

 

[pmatic]

Shaq was better that year, but keep going.

 

[al3xis]

The way people talk about him now, you'd figure AI wasn't even a Top 75 player of All-Time.

Do not like how his career is being devauled over time.

 

[blakep267]

Shaq was better that year, but keep going.

eh, thats debatable.

The way people talk about him now, you'd figure AI wasn't even a Top 75 player of All-Time.

how fast they forget. At this rate, Wade will be a memory a year after he retires

 

[JD617]

Shaq was the best player in the league in '00-'01 and that's not really up for debate.

 

[goldenchild9]

Shaq was better that year, but keep going.

It was debatable then, its debatable now. Their teams had the same records and the both ended up in the Finals.

28.7, 2.8 blocks, 12.7 rebounds vs. 31.1 pts, 2.5 steals, 4.6 assists

Realistically, Shaq couldv'e won it almost every year but guards get preference because of their ball handling and playmaking responsibilities. Both of them (and Duncan) played out of their minds that season but lets not forget that Shaq was a liability in crunch time because of his free throw shooting. Thats when Kobe had to bail him out.

The way people talk about him now, you'd figure AI wasn't even a Top 75 player of All-Time.

Do not like how his career is being devauled over time.

Crazy how quick people are to sweep greatness under the rug.

Shaq was the best player in the league in '00-'01 and that's not really up for debate.

Iverson got 93 out of the 124 MVP votes, Duncan got a far removed second place and Shaq came in third so obviously it was up for debate.

 

[blakep267]

It was debatable then, its debatable now. Their teams had the same records and the both ended up in the Finals.
28.7, 2.8 blocks, 12.7 rebounds vs. 31.1 pts, 2.5 steals, 4.6 assists
Realistically, Shaq couldv'e won it almost every year but guards get preference because of their ball handling and playmaking responsibilities. Both of them (and Duncan) played out of their minds that season but lets not forget that Shaq was a liability in crunch time because of his free throw shooting. Thats when Kobe had to bail him out.

exactly. Both Iverson and shaq were unstoppable.

 

[ill steelo]

Y'all are just giving D. Wade the nod because of his athleticism and rings (which came with great help from other top 15/20 ALL TIME players who were arguably the better player and team leader at the time of the chips).

Shaq > Wade in '06? Is that what you're saying?

 

[goldenchild9]

Y'all are just giving D. Wade the nod because of his athleticism and rings (which came with great help from other top 15/20 ALL TIME players who were arguably the better player and team leader at the time of the chips).

Shaq > Wade in '06? Is that what you're saying?

I'm saying Shaq is unquestionably a greater player than Wade, he was the leader of that squad and his dominant presence is what allowed Wade to go crazy during that run.

 

[ill steelo]

I'm saying Shaq is unquestionably a greater player than Wade

All time, sure. In the year 2006, absolutely not.

he was the leader of that squad

Nope. Zo was the heart & soul of that team, then Wade.

his dominant presence is what allowed Wade to go crazy during that run.

He shot 62% against a DET team that was notorious for not giving help to Ben Wallace against Shaq.

Shaq averaged just 14 points in the finals and if I recall he didn't even get to double digits in the deciding game. There was nothing dominant about him against DAL. He wasn't even getting doubled by game 4. The focus of the D had completely shifted to Wade as it was clear who the best player in black & red was.

 

[powerballin]

 yeah he lost some points 

 

[JD617]

Shaq was the best player in the league in '00-'01 and that's not really up for debate.

Iverson got 93 out of the 124 MVP votes, Duncan got a far removed second place and Shaq came in third so obviously it was up for debate.

The criteria for the MVP Award is poorly defined. Different voters interpret it differently but one thing that's clear is that the MVP Award winner isn't necessarily the best player in the league. Otherwise Michael Jordan would've had 8 or 9 instead of 5.

Iverson over Shaq was a classic case of the media voting for the best narrative instead of the best player.

"Everybody roots for David, nobody roots for Goliath." - Wilt Chamberlain

 

[goldenchild9]

I'm saying Shaq is unquestionably a greater player than Wade

All time, sure. In the year 2006, absolutely not.

he was the leader of that squad

Nope. Zo was the heart & soul of that team, then Wade.

his dominant presence is what allowed Wade to go crazy during that run.

He shot 62% against a DET team that was notorious for not giving help to Ben Wallace against Shaq.

Shaq averaged just 14 points in the finals and if I recall he didn't even get to double digits in the deciding game. There was nothing dominant about him against DAL. He wasn't even getting doubled by game 4. The focus of the D had completely shifted to Wade as it was clear who the best player in black & red was.

Not even gonna take anything away from Wade's 06 run even though we know the story of the whistle in that Finals series. Wade still had a historic showing but don't discount Shaq's importance to that squad. In 06 they won over 70% of their regular season games with Shaq in the lineup and won less than 50% when he was missing.

 

[mertonhanks]

All time, sure. In the year 2006, absolutely not.
Nope. Zo was the heart & soul of that team, then Wade.
He shot 62% against a DET team that was notorious for not giving help to Ben Wallace against Shaq.
Shaq averaged just 14 points in the finals and if I recall he didn't even get to double digits in the deciding game. There was nothing dominant about him against DAL. He wasn't even getting doubled by game 4. The focus of the D had completely shifted to Wade as it was clear who the best player in black & red was.

I agree with everything you said expect for the very last part. The Mavs game plan was to not let Shaq beat them. Every single game, they fronted and backed Shaq. Shaq didnt get nearly enough credit because he wasnt putting up the numbers. With that being said, in 2006 Wade > Shaq.