Is Dwyane Wade the 3rd best SG of all time?

[DCAllAfrican]

When I posed those questions, I wasn't looking for an answer based on stats but based on observation. Most people agree that Iverson had a better stroke, but let's just say they were equal.
To answer the question, was Iverson less efficient than Wade? Yes. But don't let efficiency/fg% fool you. Duncan has a better fg% than Dirk, but we both know that Dirk is still the better overall scorer.

It is 2012, there is no longer a need to base anything off of "observation" when it can be objectively looked at based on #s.

THe only reason you want to "observe" these things is because that is the only way Iverson would be considered superior to Wade in those categories. Don't trust your memory, it only remembers what you want to remember my man.

So if you want to ignore what the numbers say in this situation, cool. Just say that.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

When I posed those questions, I wasn't looking for an answer based on stats but based on observation. Most people agree that Iverson had a better stroke, but let's just say they were equal.
To answer the question, was Iverson less efficient than Wade? Yes. But don't let efficiency/fg% fool you. Duncan has a better fg% than Dirk, but we both know that Dirk is still the better overall scorer.

Dirk and Duncan's scoring are different. I personally wouldn't even compare the two.

But again, I ask, what makes Iverson a better scorer? And if we base it off of "observation" I observe Iverson miss a high % of his shots than Wade so why would I say Iverson is a better scorer?

 

[ill steelo]

Jerry West, george gervin, Iverson, Drexler, Dumars. I dont know if hes better than those guys, but he does have the rings to back it up

lulz @ all those guys except the logo.

Drexler only had 3 seasons above 24 ppg

When you in factor in facilitating, Wade was more complete than Gervin

Iverson wasn't nearly as efficient. Only has 2 seasons above 45% FG

Dumars is better defensively, but Wade is a better facilitator, scorer & rebounder.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Most people agree that Iverson had a better stroke,.

WHO agrees with that? Show me this "most people." Who are most people?

 

[gllahone84]

^ What do you mean except the logo? 

I'm not sold on dude because he's the logo...

 

[ill steelo]

^ What do you mean except the logo? 

I'm not sold on dude because he's the logo...

I only say that cause he played in the '60s and I've only seen highlights of those guys.

So I can't argue one way or the other.

 

[Trillmatic90]

Dirk and Duncan's scoring are different. I personally wouldn't even compare the two.
But again, I ask, what makes Iverson a better scorer? And if we base it off of "observation" I observe Iverson miss a high % of his shots than Wade so why would I say Iverson is a better scorer?

Why is Iverson a better scorer? Cause he was a better shooter (superior 3pt% and ft%), better at drawing fouls, and better at creating his own shot (has a lower percentage of points that were assisted by a teammate). He's only better than Wade in these categories slightly, but I'm not arguing that Iverson is WAY better than Wade to begin with. I'm just saying that Iverson has the edge.

You're right, comparing Duncan and Dirk isn't a good comparison. But my point is fg% /= who is a better scorer. If you disagree, you would be implying that Wade is also a better scorer than Kobe, since fg% would say Wade is more efficient.

 

[ill steelo]

To answer the question, was Iverson less efficient than Wade? Yes. But don't efficiency/fg% fool you. Duncan has a better fg% than Dirk, but we both know that Dirk is still the better overall scorer.

Actually, when you use True Shooting %, which factors in all shots (2 pointers, threes, and free throws), Dirk has a better TS%.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Why is Iverson a better scorer? Cause he was a better shooter (superior 3pt% and ft%), better at drawing fouls, and better at creating his own shot (has a lower percentage of points that were assisted by a teammate). He's only better than Wade in these categories slightly, but I'm not arguing that Iverson is WAY better than Wade to begin with. I'm just saying that Iverson has the edge.
You're right, comparing Duncan and Dirk isn't a good comparison. But my point is fg% /= who is a better scorer. If you disagree, you would be implying that Wade is also a better scorer than Kobe, since fg% would say Wade is more efficient.

1. Iverson shot more 3's than Wade and is a 4% better 3PT shooter than Wade. Cool, I will give you that one if you need that.

2. Free Throw %. 78 vs. 77, really? Give Iverson that one too right? LOL. 1% differential.

3. Having a lower % of assisted FG doesn't mean you are BETTER at creating your own shot. It just means that a higher % of your fg's aren't assisted. Plus where are you seeing career stats for that? Show me please. Seeing the FG% for "shots created" would be a better tool than just looking at % of fg's assisted.

4. Better at drawing fouls, we already addressed that.

So again man, what makes Iverson a better scorer? You have yet to provide me with anything that supports that argument.

 

[Trillmatic90]

WHO agrees with that? Show me this "most people." Who are most people?

I'm not about to scope out google to find all the replies that say Iverson is a better shooter. If you look through other message boards (insidehoops, realgm, etc), a lot of people agree that Iverson was the better shooter between the two.

 

[fantastic4our]

It is 2012, there is no longer a need to base anything off of "observation" when it can be objectively looked at based on #s.
THe only reason you want to "observe" these things is because that is the only way Iverson would be considered superior to Wade in those categories. Don't trust your memory, it only remembers what you want to remember my man.
So if you want to ignore what the numbers say in this situation, cool. Just say that.

I disagree with this. Numbers don't always tell the whole story. For example, the career FTA stat listed above is likely hurt quite a bit by his last couple of seasons. Just including his prime years would likely tell a truer story.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

I disagree with this. Numbers don't always tell the whole story. For example, the career FTA stat listed above is likely hurt quite a bit by his last couple of seasons. Just including his prime years would likely tell a truer story.

I can agree with the last point you made about them being in their primes. But we can compare prime years if you want to. That is fine by me. Look up the stats.

And I know numbers don't always tell the whole story, which is why I said, "In this situation."

 

[DCAllAfrican]

I'm not about to scope out google to find all the replies that say Iverson is a better shooter. If you look through other message boards (insidehoops, realgm, etc), a lot of people agree that Iverson was the better shooter between the two.

And that means what to the actuality of it?

 

[Trillmatic90]

1. Iverson shot more 3's than Wade and is a 4% better 3PT shooter than Wade. Cool, I will give you that one if you need that.
2. Free Throw %. 78 vs. 77, really? Give Iverson that one too right? LOL. 1% differential.
3. Having a lower % of assisted FG doesn't mean you are BETTER at creating your own shot. It just means that a higher % of your fg's aren't assisted. Plus where are you seeing career stats for that? Show me please. Seeing the FG% for "shots created" would be a better tool than just looking at % of fg's assisted.
4. Better at drawing fouls, we already addressed that.
So again man, what makes Iverson a better scorer? You have yet to provide me with anything that supports that argument.

Though percentage differentials are minimal, I never said that Iverson is way better than Wade (this is Dwayne Wade we're talking about). But I strictly said that he has the "edge" in scoring over Wade.

Aside from Wade having a higher fg%, you haven't provided anything that supports Wade>Iverson offensively. Like I said, if fg% is your basis for who the better scorer is, then you would essentially be saying that Wade>Kobe offensively correct?

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Though percentage differentials are minimal, I never said that Iverson is way better than Wade (this is Dwayne Wade we're talking about). But I strictly said that he has the "edge" in scoring over Wade.
Aside from Wade having a higher fg%, you haven't provided anything that supports Wade>Iverson offensively. Like I said, if fg% is your basis for who the better scorer is, then you would essentially be saying that Wade>Kobe offensively correct?

See the thing, I never said Wade > Iverson. I simply said he is a more efficient shooter. Which he is.

I never said that a higher FG% means you are a better scorer. That is something YOU pulled out of thin air.

I simply asked what makes Iverson a better scorer, which you still have yet to explain. You tried though. 3PT % is the only semi-valid thing you have presented.

I wish we had a Draw Foul % for each year of their careers because I don't want to look at just the FTA as a way to determine who is better at drawing fouls. That doesn't factor in pace.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Pay attention to True Shooting %

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html

True shooting percentage is a sabermetric basketball statistic meant to more accurately calculate a player's shooting than field goal percentage, free throw percentage, and three-point field goal percentage taken individually. Two- and three-point field goals and free throws are all considered in its calculation. It is abbreviated TS%.

A fair way to determine who the better overall shooter is. And there really is no contest when we look at that.

Also peep the Effective FG%. Again, no contest.

So anyone that says Iverson was a better shooter, I wonder what they are really "observing."

 

[Trillmatic90]

See the thing, I never said Wade > Iverson. I simply said he is a more efficient shooter. Which he is.
I never said that a higher FG% means you are a better scorer. That is something YOU pulled out of thin air.
I simply asked what makes Iverson a better scorer, which you still have yet to explain. You tried though. 3PT % is the only semi-valid thing you have presented.
I wish we had a Draw Foul % for each year of their careers because I don't want to look at just the FTA as a way to determine who is better at drawing fouls. That doesn't factor in pace.

As mentioned, Iverson wasn't a very efficient scorer. So why exactly are we calling him a BETTER scorer?

By bringing up that Iverson wasn't an "efficient scorer" and then asking "why exactly are we calling him a BETTER scorer" clearly implies that you associate fg%/efficiency with who the better scorer is.

 

[Trillmatic90]

double

 

[DCAllAfrican]

By bringing up that Iverson wasn't an "efficient scorer" and then asking "why exactly are we calling him a BETTER scorer" clearly implies that you associate fg%/efficiency with who the better scorer is.

Listen. I said Iverson is a less efficient scorer than Wade. Which means I think Wade is a more efficient scorer than Wade. So then I asked, what makes Iverson a better scorer? (Which I still ask). What I brought up is one factor. Not the only factor.

I am saying that you can't simply look at PPG as the main factor when saying who the better scorer is.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[ucm92]

He took more shots, but that was the result of being on teams that were lacking offensive weapons. The year Iverson got traded to the Nuggets, his fga went down by 6 (while still averaging something like 26 ppg) cause he finally had a reliable scorer on his team.
To answer your question on Iverson being a better scorer:
Do you agree Iverson is a better all around shooter (mid range, perimeter, and free throw)?
Do you agree that Iverson was better at drawing fouls?
Do you agree that Iverson was better at creating his own shot?
I'm not saying you're biased, but if you think Wade was better at any of those things on the offensive end then Iverson, I don't know what to say. The only thing Wade had over Iverson in terms of offense is slashing/cutting ability due to his size. That's it.

Thank you, Thank you.

 

[Trillmatic90]

Pay attention to True Shooting %
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html
A fair way to determine who the better overall shooter is. And there really is no contest when we look at that.
Also peep the Effective FG%. Again, no contest.
So anyone that says Iverson was a better shooter, I wonder what they are really "observing."

I already agreed that Wade shot a better percentage. You seem to be stuck on the idea that higher shot % = better scorer/shooter. This is nowhere near the truth.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

I already agreed that Wade shot a better percentage. You seem to be stuck on the idea that higher shot % = better scorer/shooter. This is nowhere near the truth.

No I am stuck on a higher % means higher efficiency.

Is that no where near the truth either?

 

[Trillmatic90]

No I am stuck on a higher % means higher efficiency.
Is that no where near the truth either?

I agree with you on that. Wade is the more efficient scorer between the two. No argument there.

But my point is percentages do not translate to who the superior scorer is, rather it translates to who the more efficient scorer is.

As for what your asking, there is no statistic that can give you what your looking for. You wanna know why Iverson is a better scorer/shooter but all we have statistically are percentages (which we both agree are not the deciding factor to who the better scorer is). Essentially, this argument is just a never ending cycle because who the better scorer is really just boils down to opinion after a certain point.

 

[doctorshoes]

If Iverson was the third best shooting guard of all time, he'd still be in the league, but he's not. He never won anything, only made it to one Finals appearance, and fell off quickly. If we are going to talk about best all time, then you have to factor in the player's entire career, and Iverson's career just doesn't compare to Wade's. You can make a case for Gervin being better than Wade, but he never made a Finals appearance either. Drexler maybe might be ranked ahead of Wade, but he never won a championship as "the man" on his team, nor did he ever win MVP. I don't even know if you could consider him a top 5 player in his day.

 

[ballinboykz]

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