Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[me love nutella]

But initial reporting didn't match visuals of the aftermath. Whatever caused the explosion scorched cars and barely damaged the ground and surrounding structures. I'm not saying anything different than Al-J is

Investigations reveal discrepancies in Israel’s Gaza hospital attack claims

As Israel bombs Gaza, media organisations and researchers are investigating what happened at the al-Ahli Arab Hospital.

www.aljazeera.com

This is where Israel and some biased so-called armchair experts got people bamboozled.

So, what were people expecting to happen to the ground? That looks like the work of what is likely an aerosol or vacuum bomb. This thermobaric weapon uses a high temperature explosion, and some of them are fuel air explosives. Also, why are the deniers looking into pictures of the aftermath only when the fire from the bomb was settled? Looks like ya'll missed while seeing what it was doing DURING the explosion fire of the bomb.

Its impacts include crushing human bodies and crushing internal organs. Also, with the aftermath, did you see how the flock of hundreds of victims were basically shredded to pieces and bones?

There were bodies everywhere in those videos. That is definitely in the 500s because there was about 1000 people crammed in that courtyard. There's plenty of videos out there to see with all the bodies and body bags. It was not just a couple or less than 10 victims of the usual PIJ or Hamas rockets, this was beyond any Hamas or PIJ rocket can do to humans, but also in the extensive number of civilians it killed instantly.

There is all types of different missiles with different of impacts and events.

Regardless if you're not an expert or know about explosions and impacts, this is all you need to know:

-Israeli spokesperson admitted it and then deleted tweet
-So why is Israel continously lying, retracting, and manipulating the 'evidence'? Many of you saw it in real time. The fact they fabricated 'evidence'.
-Israel has been warning and bombing hospitals, and even hit this hospital Saturday and destroyed their cancer ward.
-Israel has a pattern of committing atrocities, and then blaming PIJ or Hamas misfires, and then to come back and admit it.

But, somehow, because so many people were paying attention to the calamity of this barbaric incident, people believed it was a misfire.

I am shocked and trying to process this because we saw it in real-time, and people want to nitpick to protect their cognitive dissonance.

 

[me love nutella]

Bias, media influence, tribalism, etc. Seems like there are a multitude of factors at play. here The wedge is just too large. Doesn't seem like there's ANY budge between the conflicting sides. Then introduce social media. It's not too dissimilar from the political divide here, albeit more violent with much higher stakes.

If someone with a blue check mark tweeted that Israel or Hamas did anything controversial it would immediately set off a fuse that leads to finger pointing, pissing matches, false claims and outrage. There's a propaganda war that's been taking place from the jump.

That's why I haven't had a twitter account for like 10 years and generally don't take much at face value.

I think why I am so confused is because they had bombed 22 hospitals already, so why is this one any different to believe? They actually already hit this same hospital on Saturday and destroyed the cancer ward. So were the 22 hospital hits misfire too?

I do not want to believe that so many people can be complicit in a cover-up and to deny it because they think Palestinians are subhuman and do not deserve empathy or justice for this massacre.

Again, it has to do with the psychology of white proximity/adjacent to white colonial violence and power as acceptable and think they're above evil, when actually these Western governments are the most evil and the deadliest in fulfilling structural and systemic harm and violence unto others.

 

[getback]

I think why I am so confused is because they had bombed 22 hospitals already, so why is this one any different to believe? They actually already hit this same hospital on Saturday and destroyed the cancer ward. So were the 22 hospital hits misfire too?

In my opinion, it's like I said. There's no budge. As soon as someone puts a claim out there to the mainstream media for the public to consume, it becomes a tug-of-war for the truth. Or the general public's perception of the truth. There are plenty of worse things happening that we don't even know about yet. When and if we do, it will be the same thing. First it was beheaded babies, now it's the hospital attack. It's the popular vehicle to divide everyone at the moment. There will be something new by the end of the weekend.

 

[moderndarwin]

The entire conflict has reminded me how dangerous of a spot we are with misinformation.

I legit have no idea what is true and what is not true. I know that I definitely don’t think social media is the source of truth - it’s the ultimate propaganda tool (for either side). And there are some extremely convincing people from both sides of any conflict (not just this one).

What’s apparent though is that actual news organizations now get a lot of information (at least initially) through there. I generally wait for print articles from NYT or BBC to read up on these events. Not sure how much boots on ground reporting is possible though given such an actively dangerous area.

It’s interesting though how much people are calling for US involvement. People are very fickle and say don’t be the world police and then when stuff pops off it becomes why aren’t you stopping it.

hopefully people don’t take this the wrong way i think the people actively voicing and trying to get Palestinian support are doing the right thing. at the most base level of truth seems killing needs to stop and humanitarian supplies need to get in. Im just stating my general confusion and my own personal fear of misinformation.

 

[me love nutella]

In my opinion, it's like I said. There's no budge. As soon as someone puts a claim out there to the mainstream media for the public to consume, it becomes a tug-of-war for the truth. Or the general public's perception of the truth. There are plenty of worse things happening that we don't even know about yet. When and if we do, it will be the same thing. First it was beheaded babies, now it's the hospital attack. It's the popular vehicle to divide everyone at the moment. There will be something new by the end of the weekend.

I agree with what you said, but I also think it has to do a lot with their beliefs and value systems and confirmation bias too. There is another whole aspect where we can discuss anti-colonial struggles, and social justice movements for the oppressed, and where people stand on it.

Also, if we look at both sides, it seems like to be the U.S. and Israeli side has been much more complicit in putting unverified claims out there and then retracting and saying we cannot confirm. Biden straight up lied and said he saw a picture of beheaded babies. It is whether he lied, or Israel showed him some AI generated pics like the one Ben Shapiro going around.

Also, the dominant narrative out here is the Israeli and American press that just follows whatever Israel and the US feed them. The media is their propaganda tool.

It is vey clear in some people's alignment on social and political issues that tend to be similar across the spectrum. For instance, Black, indigenous, Palestinian cause and other BIPOC issues tend to be allies, against pro-American/Israeli/Western systemic oppression and power. It is all by design, and people will take a side depending where their benefits, priviledge or values lie.

 

[me love nutella]

The entire conflict has reminded me how dangerous of a spot we are with misinformation.

I legit have no idea what is true and what is not true. I know that I definitely don’t think social media is the source of truth - it’s the ultimate propaganda tool (for either side). And there are some extremely convincing people from both sides of any conflict (not just this one).

What’s apparent though is that actual news organizations now get a lot of information (at least initially) through there. I generally wait for print articles from NYT or BBC to read up on these events. Not sure how much boots on ground reporting is possible though given such an actively dangerous area.

It’s interesting though how much people are calling for US involvement. People are very fickle and say don’t be the world police and then when stuff pops off it becomes why aren’t you stopping it.

hopefully people don’t take this the wrong way i think the people actively voicing and trying to get Palestinian support are doing the right thing. at the most base level of truth seems killing needs to stop and humanitarian supplies need to get in. Im just stating my general confusion and my own personal fear of misinformation.

Social media has just been a tool that facilitates misinformation in the way it can be manipulated, and now even AI-generated SO fast and spread so fast.

But social media has also been frugal in being an alternative to the mainstream media that is also heavily influenced by governments to be a mouthpiece for pro-war, pro-imperialist, and condition the viewers to support their objectives for power and control in foreign policy out here in the West.

Western media on this issue is as bad as it was during Iraq and Afghanistan. It is like everyone forgot the lies they fed us to go to war.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

This is what I want to know, why is it SO HARD for the Israeli supporters to believe that Israel bombed that hospital?? Let's say they are too conditioned and brainwashed to know the Israeli tactics of covering up war crimes. Let's say they do not want to believe any of the cirucmstantial evidence stacked against Israel in this case.

This is what I d onot understand though. Israel has been carpet bombing Gaza, including hitting 22 hospitals. It hit that same hospital Saturday, and destroyed their cancer ward. They have been sending threats to hospitals to evacuate because they are going to get hit, and then hit them. They saw the Israeli digital spokesperson admit it, and then retract it. They saw the IDF manipulate audio and time stamps on photos and then retract them.

So, why is it THIS hospital, that got hit they are giving Israel benefit of the doubt, but not the other 22 hospitals that got hit? Is it to be complicit to help them cover up such a war crime?

I don't get it. I am trying to understand the psychology here behind this.

Obviously because most people view hitting civilians intentionally as different than collateral damage.

And the pro Palestinian side understands this, that's why they rushed to amplify the hospital claim.

If you really thought the hospital strike was business as usual you nobody on either side would be fixating on it like this.


Personally I think what's happening is really bad either way.

 

[me love nutella]

Obviously because most people view hitting civilians intentionally as different than collateral damage.

And the pro Palestinian side understands this, that's why they rushed to amplify the hospital claim.

If you really thought the hospital strike was business as usual you nobody on either side would be fixating on it like this.


Personally I think what's happening is really bad either way.

This is something ya'll need to understand, they always INTENTIONALLY target Palestinians civilians though. It wasn't rushed because to make it seem like some spectacle, it is because they do, and no one is doing anything to stop it. What do you think they have been bombing in the last 12 days?

The pro Israelis/Zionist just do not want Palestinians to speak out on the atrocities and submit to being exterminated.

Like I mentioned, they hit already 22 hospitals and that same hospital previously destroying its cancer ward. Israel has always been a genocidal regime, that's how it was established.

Israel has always committed disproportionately and indiscriminately deadlier war crimes and human rights violations because they know they can with no impunity and face no consequences.

Because, look, they're at it again with the warnings and threats:

Eventually, they will come out and admit the hit and say go, oh Hamas was in there, or oh, there was a tunnel under there. Now they are doing their propaganda just to create confusion and frustration to dehumanize and take away attention of their war crimes.


Did this even make the mainstream Western news yesterday???? A Greek Orthodox CHURCH was attacked and hit where Christians and Muslims were seeking refuge and civilians got killed! This was the 3rd oldest church in the world. Was it a misfire too?

Orthodox church says it was hit by Israeli air strike in Gaza

A Greek Orthodox church in the Gaza Strip which was sheltering hundreds of displaced Palestinians was hit overnight by an Israeli air strike, the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem said, and Palestinian health officials said 16 people were killed.

www.reuters.com

 

[heelsandeers]

This is where Israel and some biased so-called armchair experts got people bamboozled.

So, what were people expecting to happen to the ground? That looks like the work of what is likely an aerosol or vacuum bomb. This thermobaric weapon uses a high temperature explosion, and some of them are fuel air explosives. Also, why are the deniers looking into pictures of the aftermath only when the fire from the bomb was settled? Looks like ya'll missed while seeing what it was doing DURING the explosion fire of the bomb.

People were expecting damage consistent with a projectile explosive that would cause so many casualties. If one of these other types of weapons was used (or w/e caused the explosion) I assume there to be trace evidence. Are you really asking why the scene is being examined after the fact?

But I digress, given the danger in Gaza and if/when neutral investigators are even allowed, we probably won’t know more until it’s not in the news anymore

Its impacts include crushing human bodies and crushing internal organs. Also, with the aftermath, did you see how the flock of hundreds of victims were basically shredded to pieces and bones?

There were bodies everywhere in those videos. That is definitely in the 500s because there was about 1000 people crammed in that courtyard. There's plenty of videos out there to see with all the bodies and body bags. It was not just a couple or less than 10 victims of the usual PIJ or Hamas rockets, this was beyond any Hamas or PIJ rocket can do to humans, but also in the extensive number of civilians it killed instantly.

There is all types of different missiles with different of impacts and events.

This is more persuasive to me (though Idk what sort of damage a Hamas/PIJ rocket would do exploding in a crowd of 1000). Packed courtyard or not whatever exploded had to have a significant fuel load to cause so many causalities

The Palestinian Health Ministry is saying 470. Tragic loss regardless but I do think the actual number is important in understanding what happened

 

[heelsandeers]

Regardless if you're not an expert or know about explosions and impacts, this is all you need to know:

-Israeli spokesperson admitted it and then deleted tweet
-So why is Israel continously lying, retracting, and manipulating the 'evidence'? Many of you saw it in real time. The fact they fabricated 'evidence'.

This isn't all that persuasive imo. People make mistakes and there's a number of reasons why Israel would try to obfuscate (one of those being a cover up). But sure, it obviously isn't making them look more credible

-Israel has been warning and bombing hospitals, and even hit this hospital Saturday and destroyed their cancer ward.
-Israel has a pattern of committing atrocities, and then blaming PIJ or Hamas misfires, and then to come back and admit it.

But, somehow, because so many people were paying attention to the calamity of this barbaric incident, people believed it was a misfire.

I am shocked and trying to process this because we saw it in real-time, and people want to nitpick to protect their cognitive dissonance.

If you want to say Israel is guilty until proven innocent I completely get it. I'm not far off from that thought process myself

 

[osh kosh bosh]

This is something ya'll need to understand, they always INTENTIONALLY target Palestinians civilians though. It wasn't rushed because to make it seem like some spectacle, it is because they do, and no one is doing anything to stop it. What do you think they have been bombing in the last 12 days?

The pro Israelis/Zionist just do not want Palestinians to speak out on the atrocities and submit to being exterminated.

Like I mentioned, they hit already 22 hospitals and that same hospital previously destroying its cancer ward. Israel has always been a genocidal regime, that's how it was established.

Israel has always committed disproportionately and indiscriminately deadlier war crimes and human rights violations because they know they can with no impunity and face no consequences.

Because, look, they're at it again with the warnings and threats:

Eventually, they will come out and admit the hit and say go, oh Hamas was in there, or oh, there was a tunnel under there. Now they are doing their propaganda just to create confusion and frustration to dehumanize and take away attention of their war crimes.


Did this even make the mainstream Western news yesterday???? A Greek Orthodox CHURCH was attacked and hit where Christians and Muslims were seeking refuge and civilians got killed! This was the 3rd oldest church in the world. Was it a misfire too?

Orthodox church says it was hit by Israeli air strike in Gaza

A Greek Orthodox church in the Gaza Strip which was sheltering hundreds of displaced Palestinians was hit overnight by an Israeli air strike, the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem said, and Palestinian health officials said 16 people were killed.

www.reuters.com

Again, intent matters to both sides.

most people think telling people to evacuate a hospital because you think there are military targets in there is different then just without warning blowing up a hospital with 500 people in there.

now you can believe that both are terrible crimes regardless,

but the reality is most people on both sides see it as fundamentally different.

 

[me love nutella]

If you want to say Israel is guilty until proven innocent I completely get it. I'm not far off from that thought process myself

Thanks for taking your time to explain, but I am still just trying to understand the mindset here.

My question is, they have been hitting many hospitals, and do not deny hitting them after warning them, so why deny this one? It is because it got mass attention.

Also, I am not saying that misfires never happen, like there has been some and I had read one that misfired into the Jabylya refugee camp. You know the refugee camp is very densely packed, and people are stacked on each other. In that instance, it only killed 7 civilians.

PIJ/Hamas rockets, even when they misfire, do not kill more than 10, this is even in comparison when they land in Israel.

This hospital one? It is was hundreds instantly, and obliterated people to flesh and bones. Those aerosol bombs are one of the strongest in attacking and killing civilians.

This whole ordeal reminded me of when Russia downed that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 back in 2014 over the Russian-Ukrainian border. They blamed Ukraine for it and ran with it. They KNEW it was them, and just deflected blame.

 

[me love nutella]

Again, intent matters to both sides.

most people think telling people to evacuate a hospital because you think there are military targets in there is different then just without warning blowing up a hospital with 500 people in there.

now you can believe that both are terrible crimes regardless,

but the reality is most people on both sides see it as fundamentally different.

The warnings are just protocol. I mean, last week I read Hamas gave a warning to a settlement in Israel to evacuate.

It is inhumane to warn hospitals you're going to bomb them. This is hospitals.

I realized some people really think that Western superpower militaries don't target civilians. They have a romanticized version and conditioning of warfare. War is inherently violent, there is no such thing as not targeting civilians. When territorial conquest, control and annexation are the aims of warfare, the population of the land is viewed as a threat and the aggressor state targets those civilians to remove them. It is a numbers game. You also have to destroy the infrastructure.

 

[me love nutella]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/hamas-releases-two-american-hostages-from-gaza

I am glad to hear these women are getting back home safe.

 

[degenerate423]

Macklemore and 40 speaking out against Israel .

 

[DLF]

Macklemore and 40 speaking out against Israel .

Wow. Just wow.

Beautiful

 

[ahat]

 

[ahat]

Hmm

 

[me love nutella]

Another good analysis:

Who was behind the Gaza hospital blast – visual investigation

So what do we actually know about the hospital blast - and the contradicting claims by Israel and Hamas, which is designated a terrorist organisation by the UK? It's been impossible to carry out any independent verification - but we’ve been examining the evidence presented by both sides so far.

www.channel4.com

 

[htg designs]

Hmm

Poisoning of the youth is everywhere.
Propaganda is everywhere.

I dont like these types of posts cus they try to suggest the videoed represent the whole.
Thats like saying SexxyRed represents black women in America...

 

[gry60]

Poisoning of the youth is everywhere.
Propaganda is everywhere.

I dont like these types of posts cus they try to suggest the videoed represent the whole.
Thats like saying SexxyRed represents black women in America...

These posts are important because they highlight the double standard with which this conflict is covered in the West (and really, everywhere else).

The Israeli government is full of religious right wingers intend on making all of historic Palestine a Jewish state. Hamas took advantage of the inattention of Israeli leaders who were more focused on elevating Jewish religious issues over everything else, to the point where they aimed to take control of and weaken their supreme court. That is not Democratic. And yet, all of Israel's allies continue to describe the country as THE only democracy in the Middle East.

There is a hypocrisy here that needs to be called out. More people need to know about the military service exemption for religious folks in Israel, settlers' treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, and the origins of Likud and other extremist parties that dominate the Israeli political scene.

 

[ahat]

Poisoning of the youth is everywhere.
Propaganda is everywhere.

I dont like these types of posts cus they try to suggest the videoed represent the whole.
Thats like saying SexxyRed represents black women in America...

These posts are important because they highlight the double standard with which this conflict is covered in the West (and really, everywhere else).

The Israeli government is full of religious right wingers intend on making all of historic Palestine a Jewish state. Hamas took advantage of the inattention of Israeli leaders who were more focused on elevating Jewish religious issues over everything else, to the point where they aimed to take control of and weaken their supreme court. That is not Democratic. And yet, all of Israel's allies continue to describe the country as THE only democracy in the Middle East.

There is a hypocrisy here that needs to be called out. More people need to know about the military service exemption for religious folks in Israel, settlers' treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, and the origins of Likud and other extremist parties that dominate the Israeli political scene.

Exactly. That's what the west shows. They don't show what Israel and Israelis do and say in the same light. Always the victim. Always "defending themselves".

 

[me love nutella]

Agreed.

It's very one sided in the West that supposedly the culture of hate and antisemitism is only by the Arabs but it goes both ways.

There's also a power dynamics, imbalance and asymmetry, where the occupied see the need to resist the brutal violent occupation, and the occupier and colonial entity sees it as it has to reinforce its violence and occupation on the oppressed.

 

[Upptempo]

As many have already stated in this thread, misinformation is rampant in this era of society and technology. However, I don't think the misinformation is swaying anyone. A lot of people say "oh I'm neutral on the subject but I read ____" or they say "I'm not that familiar with the conflict but I saw that _____" but the reality is, there is some subconscious perspective everyone taps into in conflicts like this. To think that there were people that had 0 emotion towards Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims or Israel/White people/Jews, is hard for me to believe.

 

[moderndarwin]

What’s the pragmatic solution? It seems like a historic peace accords needs to be signed and all Palestinian (including any in other parts like West Bank) need their own spot to live (maybe Gaza?). Seems to me like the two countries need to be completely separated and significant international resources and aid given to the Palestinians to rebound and recover and build infrastructure etc. Maybe that’s a way off base take but i just don’t see what else is even possible.

People think North Korea and South Korea is some bad or violent situation. Having lived in the DMZ border there I can say it’s very peaceful not even remotely “conflict”. They each rock and do their own things and mostly there’s no strong animosity between the two - they just view each other as political ideology governance very different and SK views NK more as in cohort with China and Nk views SK as more in cohort with US Western thinking.

Not to remotely say that it’s a perfect situation but compared because NK is full of indoctrined people and a terrible way of ruling and oppressive lifestyle.

Just using the example from a geographic perspective of - it just seems like there needs to be an actual split here with two disparate countries vs some melting point solution.