Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[me love nutella]

You are making too much sense for the pro Hamas crowd. They'll blame Israel for creating these terrorists though.

It took the PLO decades to make peace only for violence to take over again.

Edit - yep exactly what I said. Like clockwork. Blame the Jew

Israel are to blame because they are the occupier and there's the imbalance and asymmetry of power.

There will never be peace until the occupation an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians ends.

Also, Israel are not only corrupt. They're a fascist fundamentalist extremist state. They're much much worse than Hamas or any othef Palestinian resistance fighters because they created tug conditions of an extreme indiscriminate non proportional violence and are armed to the teeth that has been butchering Palestinians since the 1940s.

 

[ahat]

Israel are to blame because they are the occupier and there's the imbalance and asymmetry of power.

There will never be peace until the occupation an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians ends.

Also, Israel are not only corrupt. They're a fascist fundamentalist extremist state. They're much much worse than Hamas or any othef Palestinian resistance fighters because they created tug conditions of an extreme indiscriminate non proportional violence and are armed to the teeth that has been butchering Palestinians since the 1940s.

He doesn't wanna hear that.

Victim mentality.

 

[me love nutella]

Correct. Charity programs from Hamas to the Palestinian people. The hundreds of millions of dollars donated to infrastructure and education and growth. I completely forgot about that.

You cant be serious.

You realize that there are Palestinian people in Gaza that are afraid of Hamas right? You cant say anything negative about Hamas.

No for real, read up on their history and why they got popular.

They can't funnel that money to civil society. How the hell and where can they get all the imports and exports when there is a blockade and siege?

They can barely even get hummus or milk because of the blockade. Israel controls anything that goes in and out unless they can smuggle sometimes.

You're not to decide how an oppressed people under suffering and living in a concentration camp get to fight back the brutal violence inflicted on them and with a boot on their necks.

 

[moderndarwin]

It seems even within this thread there is no real halfway point of discussion. Nvm. There’s definitely no solution that’ll work because it’s scorched earth from both on this…and understandably so.

Israel lost 6M people can’t imagine a more PTSD people. And then got put into the middle of an area where there’d be endless conflict. They were bound to become extremist from jump street.

 

[heelsandeers]

Am i just confused or wrong? So the last election the Palestinian side had they actually ELECTED Hamas and since then there’s been no other political party that is the designated leadership?

Why hasn’t the Palestinians overthrown them since then it’s like 2M people there right i don’t get at all what is going on there.

Hamas rules Palestinians by fear
Israel hates Hamas because Hamas hates them
Israel wants Hamas gone

Why aren’t Palestinians working with Israelis to remove Hamas and then sort out a more peaceful two state solution. So confusing

Half the population in Gaza is under 18. They are struggling to live day to day as is

How does an unarmed civilian population comprised of mostly women and children overthrow Hamas?

They don’t have a way of doing it. The leadership of Hamas isn’t even in Gaza

 

[DLF]

Fantastic listen

 

[shibadekobe]

Israeli Tanks Exchange Fire With Hamas Inside Gaza, Small Arms Clashes Heard, As Ground War Opens

 

[ballinsam23]

Zionists love that victim mentality.

You can say you're against Zionism all you want, yet the tone of your posts says otherwise.

How many Jews are there in the world? 0.2% I'll be pro-Jewish lives no matter what because I know how things are and can be when it comes to Jews.

Extreme right wing. Extreme left wing. Government and politics and all this other bs I really dont care about

I understand the pro-Palestinians crowd, but pro-Hamas? Nah. **** no.

 

[ahat]

How many Jews are there in the world? 0.2% I'll be pro-Jewish lives no matter what because I know how things are and can be when it comes to Jews.

Extreme right wing. Extreme left wing. Government and politics and all this other bs I really dont care about

I understand the pro-Palestinians crowd, but pro-Hamas? Nah. **** no.

You keep conflating pro-palestinian with being pro-hamas. This is what zionists do.

 

[ballinsam23]

You keep conflating pro-palestinian with being pro-hamas. This is what zionists do.

I'm not though. You can clearly tell by certain posters here they are pro Hamas.

 

[elpablo21]

awful

 

[ballinsam23]

It seems even within this thread there is no real halfway point of discussion. Nvm. There’s definitely no solution that’ll work because it’s scorched earth from both on this…and understandably so.

Israel lost 6M people can’t imagine a more PTSD people. And then got put into the middle of an area where there’d be endless conflict. They were bound to become extremist from jump street.

There are extremists in both groups. There are extremists in every race/religion in this world.

The common Arab and common Jewish family want peace. They dont want killing and more war.

Until there is better leadership for the Palestinians, peace will be impossible it seems like. Both sides are dumb if they think a war will end this. When Hamas doesnt exist anymore, another group will eventually form and it'll be another cycle a few years down the line.

 

[DLF]

The autopsies of those dead on October 7 will likely show that most died as a result of Israel crossfire as it is their MO to not care for hostages when taken by Hamas. Shoot to kill, even if their own die. Time and time again.

I’m not saying I support Hamas’ attack. Don’t twist words like most like to do.

 

[heelsandeers]

The problem with Hamas for many Palestinians

Yasmine Mohammed grew up in Vancouver in an Islamic fundamentalist home, and at age 19, was forced into marriage to a man who turned out to be an al-Qaeda operative.

www.wbur.org

“People don't want the face of the resistance to be terrorists,” she says. “It’s like calling ISIS the face of Syrians or Iraqis. This is an unfortunate situation. Hamas have been getting so much funding from Iran and other Islamist countries ... It’s easy for them to become the voice of the Palestinian people because all the other voices are being completely silenced.”

…

“We saw a very similar thing happening when the Iranian people were fighting against the Islamic regime. People assume, ‘Oh, it's your leadership and you voted them in. So, therefore, you must agree with what they do,'" she says. "But we have to remember, Hamas was voted in 18 years ago. The Iranian regime was voted in 40 years ago, and these are not functioning democracies where people can just vote them out,” she says.

 

[moderndarwin]

The problem with Hamas for many Palestinians

Yasmine Mohammed grew up in Vancouver in an Islamic fundamentalist home, and at age 19, was forced into marriage to a man who turned out to be an al-Qaeda operative.

www.wbur.org

“People don't want the face of the resistance to be terrorists,” she says. “It’s like calling ISIS the face of Syrians or Iraqis. This is an unfortunate situation. Hamas have been getting so much funding from Iran and other Islamist countries ... It’s easy for them to become the voice of the Palestinian people because all the other voices are being completely silenced.”

…

“We saw a very similar thing happening when the Iranian people were fighting against the Islamic regime. People assume, ‘Oh, it's your leadership and you voted them in. So, therefore, you must agree with what they do,'" she says. "But we have to remember, Hamas was voted in 18 years ago. The Iranian regime was voted in 40 years ago, and these are not functioning democracies where people can just vote them out,” she says.

true completely true.

but what is the solution. we’ve seen how little people support when outside forces step in and try to help. usually it’s a mix of it doesn’t work and the people there don’t want it.

also most people want US to not have to act as the world police. but when stuff goes south people always expect the US to right the ship.

It’s like having a friend who then becomes nuts and does nuts things. You won’t all of a sudden support his enemy you just distance yourself from the nuts friend.

 

[gry60]

Am i just confused or wrong? So the last election the Palestinian side had they actually ELECTED Hamas and since then there’s been no other political party that is the designated leadership?

Why hasn’t the Palestinians overthrown them since then it’s like 2M people there right i don’t get at all what is going on there.

Hamas rules Palestinians by fear
Israel hates Hamas because Hamas hates them
Israel wants Hamas gone

Why aren’t Palestinians working with Israelis to remove Hamas and then sort out a more peaceful two state solution. So confusing

There's a lot of glossing over the events that happened during that period of time:

The PA was encouraged to hold elections by the international community. At the time, Bush was leading the US. The dominant thought was that with Israel ending the blockade of Gaza, the PA would easily win the elections and stomp down Hamas.

The problem is that the PA under Abbas has had a legitimacy problem among Palestinians, and that resulted in very close elections that saw Hamas' victory (both Fatah and Hamas won >40% of the vote). This is with Israel very clearly trying to influence the vote by arresting Hamas politicians before, during, and after the elections.

While the EU continued to deliver funds to Gaza for the first few months, Bush and Bibi convinced them to stop and encouraged Abbas to take over Gaza, with the promise of material support. That's how the civil war between Fatah and Hamas started, and why we are where we are today (no elections for 17 years in the West Bank and in Gaza).

Today, support for the PA and Abbas is even lower than it used to be because Palestinians can see what is happening in the WB when it comes to how Israel has free reign over what should be Palestinian territory. The PA has no power to stop illegal settlements or the killings of Palestinian civilians by Israeli settlers.

Finally, folks still gloss over the fact that the Israeli government is dominated by the country's extreme right, and this situation of open conflict suits them perfectly, as it allows them to justify airstrikes and land capture.

Also Hamas got popular off their charity programs and social services to the people.

True.
They campaigned in 2006 on a fairly conservative economic platform (control costs, increase efficiency), AND they took credit for Israel's withdrawal from Gaza.

With that said...

Also, Hamas are not the only ones in this fight and are part of the alliance of Palestinian forces. It includes armed Communist and Socialist Palestinian armed factions. There's a list of them in alliance part of the resistance.

Nobody should be naïve enough to believe that these aren't anything more than alliances of convenience.

Much of Hamas support comes from folks who have merged the geopolitical with the ideological (Iran, ISIS or whatever is left of it, PIJ, Hezbollah, etc...), and for those specific actors, tolerance of an Israeli state is synonymous with capitulation. I would think that leaders of these left-wing organizations are aware of the motivations that dominate their side of the conflict, and that their ideas about how society should be organized are not exactly welcome.

 

[heelsandeers]

Problem with most of the "eliminate Hamas" talk is that eliminating Hamas doesn't actually solve anything. As long as there are millions of young men with not much to lose radicals will always be able to build a small army

The way to defeat the radicals is to deprive them of recruits and you only do that by addressing the underlying causes. Maybe I'm forgetting one but there have been no successful military campaigns in modern times that have succeeded in achieving peace by wiping out insurgents

Colombia maybe? Though arguably FARC became exhausted and unable to recruit more than they were defeated. Not coincidentally the GDP of Colombia skyrocketed during this time

 

[gry60]

Next time your obnoxiously Christian acquaintance voices their support for Israel because the Bible says so, just show them this:

Palestinian Christians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In Israel​

In July 2014, during operation Protective Edge an Israeli-Arab Christian demonstration was held in Haifa in a protest against Muslim extremism in the Middle East (concerning the rise of the Islamic State) and in support of Israel and the IDF.[41]

Christian Arabs are one of the most educated groups in Israel.[42][43] Statistically, Christian Arabs in Israel have the highest rates of educational attainment among all religious communities, according to a data by Israel Central Bureau of Statistics in 2010, 63% of Israeli Christian Arabs have had college or postgraduate education, the highest of any religious and ethno-religious group.[44] Despite the fact that Arab Christians only represent 2.1% of the total Israeli population, in 2014 they accounted for 17.0% of the country's university students, and for 14.4% of its college students.[45] Christians are proportionally more likely to have attained a bachelor's or higher academic degrees than the Israeli national average. Christian Arabs additionally have one of the highest rates of success in the matriculation examinations, (73.9%) in 2017[46][47] both in comparison to the Muslims and the Druze and in comparison to all students in the Jewish education system as a group.[48] Arab Christians were also the vanguard in terms of eligibility for higher education,[48] and they have attained a bachelor's degree and academic degree more than the median Israeli population.[48] Christians schools in Israel went on strike in 2015 at the beginning of the 2015 academic year in protest at budget cuts aimed at them. The strike affected 33,000 pupils, 40 percent of them Muslim. In 2013, Israel covered 65% of the budget of Palestinian Christian schools in Israel, a figure cut that year to 34%. Christians say they now received a third of what Jewish schools receive, with a shortfall of $53 million.[49]

The rate of students studying in the field of medicine was also higher among the Christian Arab students, compared with all the students from other sectors. The percentage of Arab Christian women who are higher education students is higher than other sectors.[5

In September 2014, Israel's interior minister signed an order that the self-identified ''Aramean Christian'' minority in Israel could register as Arameans rather than Arabs.[51] The order will affect about 200 families.[51]

The first local woman cleric ordained in the Holy Land was Palestinian Sally Azar of the Lutheran church in 2023.[52]

"Only democracy in the Middle East"

 

[gry60]

Problem with most of the "eliminate Hamas" talk is that eliminating Hamas doesn't actually solve anything. As long as there are millions of young men with not much to lose radicals will always be able to build a small army

The way to defeat the radicals is to deprive them of recruits and you only do that by addressing the underlying causes. Maybe I'm forgetting one but there have been no successful military campaigns in modern times that have succeeded in achieving peace by wiping out insurgents

Colombia maybe? Though arguably FARC became exhausted and unable to recruit more than they were defeated. Not coincidentally the GDP of Colombia skyrocketed during this time

I agree with everything you said.

I see Israel ultimately responsible for a different set of reasons: They've always had the upper hand in this conflict, and instead of fostering a real relationship with the PA, which would legitimize them in the eyes of Palestinians, they undermined them. The results, as you said, are predictable: radicalization. A real solution that accommodates most Israelis and most Palestinians will take decades of normalization between the two peoples, and every violent episode will reset that clock.

There's no rooting out Hamas by force. I don't think Israelis don't realize this. That's why I think they want the whole land, even when they publicly declare they don't.

 

[moderndarwin]

Yeah i agree i think they simply want the whole land. It’s not more complex than that. They don’t want to share. I don’t really blame them. It’s like blaming a kid that went through serious abuse. I blame the rest of the world - this is just the result. Far right extremism and need for safety and security has got to be their most core beliefs considering what they went through when they didn’t have it.

it’s unfortunate for the Palestinians but the choices are either fight and die or leave. Cuz the Israelis clearly don’t want to share. And they’ll justify any ends to why they don’t want to share (some valid most not). The obviously middle ground being two completely separated nations.

 

[me love nutella]

Ok, first off... ya'll are lumping all these islamist groups together as united or something.

I have explained here that they are not all chummy together and there's beef between different factions and governments. They're not all a monolith. Saudi, including UAE, Eggypt and other Gulf states (except Qatar), are enemies of Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran.

ISIS are said to be some made up mercenaries and death squads, not some ideological party to take over. We all know now the U.S. helped fuel ISIS just like the U.S. did with their death squads unto Latin America in the 1980s.

Some of you lack the understanding on the shift in Middle Eastern culture and why some support islamists/extremists as the front of resistance to be the antithesis to the extremist monarchies/Western governments.

The secular Middle Eastern authoritarian governments are just as messed up as the religious fundamentalists.

Some of you are trying to put YOUR WESTERN VERSION of how these countries should be ruled, when it is not your call. It needs to happen organically. Also, the issue is that you cannot take away extremism or fundamentalism from the region in politics, if you do not get to the root and remove the foreign interference and plundering of their resources by the West.

A final note, the Western governments are no moral high ground either, and are the dominant superpowers that commit the most atrocities and violations in the world.

 

[me love nutella]

Half the population in Gaza is under 18. They are struggling to live day to day as is

How does an unarmed civilian population comprised of mostly women and children overthrow Hamas?

They don’t have a way of doing it. The leadership of Hamas isn’t even in Gaza

The only language the occupier understands is violence, so in some form of resistance, the occupied will also speak back through violence.

The Hamas fighters are young too. Supposedly they range mostly from 20-35 years old. Have you ever met a Gazan fresh out of Gaza? These people are made of steel and nothing scares them and they have no fear. They have seen everything and all they know is death and destruction, and have been caged, starved, whole families wiped out. To them, it is just die doing nothing or die fighting for your land.

 

[me love nutella]

Israel lost 6M people can’t imagine a more PTSD people. And then got put into the middle of an area where there’d be endless conflict. They were bound to become extremist from jump street.

I do not get this rhetoric here in the West at all that Jews deserve the most empathy because of what they went through in the Holocaust, and so they have inter-generational trauma, but yet where is the accountability that the Zionists took the same playbook from the Nazis and colonizers and then did it to the Palestinians?

In school, because of the Holocaust, they teach us the story and embed it in our heads, so it can never happen again, right? Well damn, some of these survivors and descendent have been doing it again and again to another group of people. Many people around the world have intergenerational trauma due to wars, ethnic cleansing and genocide occurring until this day, but the focus is only what centers where whiteness and white adjacent colonizers are involved.

Why is it the Arabs and Palestinians were made responsible and punished for the persecution of the Jews by the Christian Europeans? In a plot twist, the Christian Europeans are now allies to the Jewish political leaders of Israel. You also need to know that Zionists collaborated with Nazis and antisemite European leaders to establish Israel.

 

[moderndarwin]

I do not get this rhetoric here in the West at all that Jews deserve the most empathy because of what they went through in the Holocaust, and so they have inter-generational trauma, but yet where is the accountability that the Zionists took the same playbook from the Nazis and colonizers and then did it to the Palestinians?

In school, because of the Holocaust, they teach us the story and embed it in our heads, so it can never happen again, right? Well damn, some of these survivors and descendent have been doing it again and again to another group of people. Many people around the world have intergenerational trauma due to wars, ethnic cleansing and genocide occurring until this day, but the focus is only what centers where whiteness and white adjacent colonizers are involved.

Why is it the Arabs and Palestinians were made responsible and punished for the persecution of the Jews by the Christian Europeans? In a plot twist, the Christian Europeans are now allies to the Jewish political leaders of Israel. You also need to know that Zionists collaborated with Nazis and antisemite European leaders to establish Israel.

i don’t think you get how abuse and trauma shape the way people act. It’s not an excuse it’s an explanation. like when people that got beat and abused as kids repeat the cycle. It doesn’t make it right but human behavior isn’t that complex…they were a bunch of extremists from day 1 because of what they went through.

it’s unfortunate for the palestinians to bear the brunt of this for a problem they had no part of. That’s the situation though. They were the weak and now they’re the strong. And strength and money corrupts even non extreme people so can only imagine what it did over there. They’re a unique people that is fully committed to wealth, security, and their military. Palestinians have no chance against that sort of internal moral compass. As evidenced by all the stuff that’s being said more boldly out loud now by them.

 

[Zainjal26]

awful

I knew the calls for ceasefire would go on deaf ears

Netanyahu aka genghis khan 2.0 isn’t stopping until Palestine is destroyed

Rip to those innocents killed by this - especially children
Special place in heaven for them



Special place in hell for Hamas and Netanyahu and his cabinet