Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[me love nutella]

Can you really argue that Palestinian leaders of the past (namely, Arafat and the PLO) haven't led their people on because "a better deal will be around the corner"? I mean, for all the praise that Oslo is getting today, let's remember that Arafat had few Arab leaders by his side after supporting the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq, being active in the Lebanon civil war, and trying to destabilize the Jordanian monarchy.

Can we recognize the role the PLO's past is playing in the inability of Palestinian authorities to be effectively supported by Arab nations?

There is way more to unpack here, and the lack of Arab support is because of their double-faced underlying support of being upheld by the West/U.S./British.

The only Arab state leaders that were able to side with the Palestinian resistance/PLO somehow got killed or died eventually. Egypt's Abdel Gamal Nasser is rumored to have been poisoned, and we saw what happened with King Faisal of Saudi, and then we saw what happened with Saddam. Oh ya, it is rumored Arafat was poisoned too.

The Arab states/governments, most of them were never robust staunch supporters of the Palestinian cause because they are in bed with the colonizers because the colonizers supported them. Since the mid 70s , the situation had shifted partially because of the emergence of local nationalism in most Arab states, which died down pan-Arabism that had taken on the Palestinian cause.

Moreover, the strategic importance of the Palestinian question in the Arab world has been declining since the Camp David Accords. Also, when it comes to civil and ethnic strife, the Palestinian question has not been a priority for Arab publics since the Arab Uprisings and the emergence of conflicts in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, and Libya. Additionally, the deep divisions within Palestine makes it difficult to know how to support it because of many issues and factors (Palestinian refugees, Gaza vs. West Bank population, Israeli-Arabs, and Jerusalem issue).

Can we recognize the problematic slogan that is "from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea, Palestine will be free?" Anyone care to pick up a map and figure out what that's supposed to mean?

What is wrong with the slogan and why are so many threatened by this from the other side?

It has been used in Palestinian nationalism and folklore for decades. It means for Palestinians to be free, gain equal rights, and sovereignty, from the West Bank, inside Israel, and in Gaza, whether that is in the form of a one-state or two-state solution, and whatever else it entails to achieve equality and human rights.

 

[IATT]

 

[me love nutella]

Bibi knows he is done, so he is going berzerk genocidal mode to hang on to power and prolong a war to stay at the helm.

 

[Brownstone]

Bibi knows he is done, so he is going berzerk genocidal mode to hang on to power and prolong a war to stay at the helm.

Why is he done?

I am curious because I am hearing this elsewhere and wondering what the reasoning is in your opinion?

 

[computersputin]

What Russia Hopes to Gain From the Israel-Hamas Conflict

What to know about Russia’s relationship with Hamas—and what Russia stands to gain from unrest in the Middle East.

time.com

 

[Upptempo]

Why is he done?

I am curious because I am hearing this elsewhere and wondering what the reasoning is in your opinion?

Israelis hate him. It's like how Biden currently has an under 40% approval rating yet people across the world think Americans love him and support his decisions.

 

[gry60]

The only Arab state leaders that were able to side with the Palestinian resistance/PLO somehow got killed or died eventually. Egypt's Abdel Gamal Nasser is rumored to have been poisoned, and we saw what happened with King Faisal of Saudi, and then we saw what happened with Saddam. Oh ya, it is rumored Arafat was poisoned too.

The Arab states/governments, most of them were never robust staunch supporters of the Palestinian cause because they are in bed with the colonizers because the colonizers supported them. Since the mid 70s , the situation had shifted partially because of the emergence of local nationalism in most Arab states, which died down pan-Arabism that had taken on the Palestinian cause.

I disagree with this statement. All the countries listed below fought Israel since its inception (194. You don't fight Israel for 30 years or more because you're in bed with the same colonizers who are also funding Israel.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab–Israeli_conflict

1974–2000​

Egypt​

Further information: Egypt–Israel relations

Following the Camp David Accords of the late 1970s, Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty in March 1979. Under its terms, the Sinai Peninsula returned to Egyptian hands, and the Gaza Strip remained under Israeli control, to be included in a future Palestinian state. The agreement also provided for the free passage of Israeli ships through the Suez Canal and recognition of the Straits of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba as international waterways.

Jordan​

Further information: Israel–Jordan relations
In October 1994, Israel and Jordan signed a peace agreement, which stipulated mutual cooperation, an end of hostilities, the fixing of the Israel-Jordan border, and a resolution of other issues. The conflict between them had cost roughly 18.3 billion dollars. Its signing is also closely linked with the efforts to create peace between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) representing the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). It was signed at the southern border crossing of Arabah on 26 October 1994 and made Jordan only the second Arab country (after Egypt) to sign a peace accord with Israel.

Iraq​

Further information: Iraq–Israel relations
Israel and Iraq have been implacable foes since 1948. Iraq sent its troops to participate in the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, and later backed Egypt and Syria in the 1967 Six-Day War and in the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

In June 1981, Israel attacked and destroyed newly built Iraqi nuclear facilities in Operation Opera.

During the Gulf War in 1991, Iraq fired 39 Scud missiles into Israel, in the hopes of uniting the Arab world against the coalition which sought to liberate Kuwait. At the behest of the United States, Israel did not respond to this attack in order to prevent a greater outbreak of war.

Lebanon​

Main article: Israeli–Lebanese conflict
Further information: Israel–Lebanon relations and Palestinian insurgency in South Lebanon
In 1970, following an extended civil war, King Hussein expelled the Palestine Liberation Organization from Jordan. September 1970 is known as the Black September in Arab history and sometimes is referred to as the "era of regrettable events". It was a month when Hashemite King Hussein of Jordan moved to quash the autonomy of Palestinian organisations and restore his monarchy's rule over the country.[76] The violence resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinians.[77] Armed conflict lasted until July 1971 with the expulsion of the PLO and thousands of Palestinian fighters to Lebanon.

The PLO resettled in Lebanon, where it began to extend a de facto autonomous rule and from which it staged raids into Israel. PLO was one of the major factors for sectarian destabilization of Lebanon and the eruption of the Lebanese Civil War in 1975. In 1978, Israel launched Operation Litani, in which it together with the Free Lebanon Army forced the PLO to retreat north of the Litani river. In 1981 another conflict between Israel and the PLO broke out, which ended with a ceasefire agreement that did not solve the core of the conflict. In June 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon in alliance with Christian factions of the Lebanese government. Within two months the PLO agreed to withdraw thence.

In March 1983, Israel and Lebanon signed a normalization agreement. However, Syria pressured President Amine Gemayel into nullifying the truce in March 1984, following . By 1985, Israeli forces withdrew to a 15 km wide southern strip of Lebanon, following which the conflict continued on a lower scale, with relatively low casualties on both sides. In 1993 and 1996, Israel launched major operations against the Shiite militia of Hezbollah, which had become an emergent threat. In May 2000, the newly elected government of Ehud Barak authorized a withdrawal from Southern Lebanon, fulfilling an election promise to do so well ahead of a declared deadline. The hasty withdrawal lead to the immediate collapse of the South Lebanon Army, and many members either got arrested or fled to Israel.

Like I said, these countries couldn't remove Israel, so they adopted another strategy that took into account Israel's right to exist.

Moreover, the strategic importance of the Palestinian question in the Arab world has been declining since the Camp David Accords. Also, when it comes to civil and ethnic strife, the Palestinian question has not been a priority for Arab publics since the Arab Uprisings and the emergence of conflicts in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, and Libya. Additionally, the deep divisions within Palestine makes it difficult to know how to support it because of many issues and factors (Palestinian refugees, Gaza vs. West Bank population, Israeli-Arabs, and Jerusalem issue).

It sounds like Camp David failed BECAUSE the opinions of the Arab world weighed on Arafat. It is true that the streets in the Arab world (and throughout the global South) do not see eye to eye with their leaders on the question of their relationship with the West. Arafat accepting a peace deal with Israel had the potential to enflame Arab nationalists in the region too. On the other hand, Arafat not accepting the deal gave the Israeli Right the reins of government in 2001 (because he was painted as unserious and made the Israeli Left look like fools for seeking a peaceful solution), and we are where we are today.

Was Arafat the problem?

One thing nearly all pundits seem to agree on is that Yasser Arafat's rejection of the land-for-peace offer made by Ehud Barak at Camp David in the...

slate.com

 

[computersputin]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/29/us/cornell-university-antisemetic-threats-online-investigation/index.html

Authorities investigating online threats of violence against Jewish students at Cornell University, school’s president says​

 

[me love nutella]

I disagree with this statement. All the countries listed below fought Israel since its inception (194. You don't fight Israel for 30 years or more because you're in bed with the same colonizers who are also funding Israel.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab–Israeli_conflict


Like I said, these countries couldn't remove Israel, so they adopted another strategy that took into account Israel's right to exist.

Let me clarify a bit...The Arab betrayal of Palestinians has a long history and it happened in different stages by different actors. While Arab leaders claimed to be fighting for Palestine since 1948, they were also engaged in a war of interests in which the warring parties had different agendas and often conflicting goals.

It is a lot to get into, but just take a look at the war of 1948. There was rivalry between the Jordanians, with their British-officered Arab Legion and King Abdullah’s ambitions for a Greater Syria, and the Egyptians, with King Farouk’s ambition to lead the Arab World, backed to some degree by the League of Arab States and by the former mufti of Jerusalem. Iraq tended to support Transjordan while Saudi Arabia sided with Egypt, pointing out that it is not clear who really looked out for the Palestinian Arabs.

There was even a deal between Transjordan’s King Abdullah and the Jews in which he was offered the West Bank and Eastern Jerusalem. In 1946–48, Abdullah actually supported partition in order that the Arab allocated areas of the British Mandate for Palestine could be annexed into Transjordan. During the course of the war, the Arab Legion did not advance beyond the regions the Israelis had given Abdullah under the deal. There was even a deal later on between King Abdullah and Golda Meir, the Israeli prime minister, as major setbacks that turned the course of events in favour of Israel. That is why in 1951, King Abdullah of Jordan was assassinated by a Palestinian.

Instead of fighting against the Jewish state, Arab leaders fought against each other for land and glory. Us Palestinians always know and say the Arab leaders were more in back handed deals with the colonizers and Israel as they were looking out for themselves, and for power and land grabs. There were different periods depending on the Arab leader and regime that were genuinely backing Palestinians. But, not from the beginning and it was much more nuanced and complex in shifting relations and alliances.

So, I would not really call this a staunch alliance with the Palestinian Arabs, and there were a lot of shady and snaky moves behind the backs of Palestinians.

 

[computersputin]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/30/europe/russia-dagestan-airport-anti-israel-intl-hnk/index.html

Antisemitic mob storms through Russian airport as flight from Tel Aviv lands​

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[smedroc]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/30/europe/russia-dagestan-airport-anti-israel-intl-hnk/index.html

Antisemitic mob storms through Russian airport as flight from Tel Aviv lands​

Dagestani breddas don't play games.

 

[DripNick]

Dagestani breddas don't play games.

Standing on bidness

 

[me love nutella]

 

[ahat]

Zionists love to play the victim

 

[gry60]

Let me clarify a bit...The Arab betrayal of Palestinians has a long history and it happened in different stages by different actors. While Arab leaders claimed to be fighting for Palestine since 1948, they were also engaged in a war of interests in which the warring parties had different agendas and often conflicting goals.

Is that not fair and expected from the leader of a country to place the interests of the area they control over the interests of people outside of it? Is it realistic of Palestinians to expect that other leaders place them above their own citizens/national interests?

Instead of fighting against the Jewish state, Arab leaders fought against each other for land and glory. Us Palestinians always know and say the Arab leaders were more in back handed deals with the colonizers and Israel as they were looking out for themselves, and for power and land grabs. There were different periods depending on the Arab leader and regime that were genuinely backing Palestinians. But, not from the beginning and it was much more nuanced and complex in shifting relations and alliances.

So, I would not really call this a staunch alliance with the Palestinian Arabs, and there were a lot of shady and snaky moves behind the backs of Palestinians.

I wouldn't necessarily call vying for regional/international influence shady. All nations do it. An independent Palestine would do it too, given the means. The Palestinian cause played well to the national audiences that embraced the narrative of Arab Nationalism, but I think Palestinian leaders should have been more aware that national interests always trump international friendship/kinship.

This morning, the Palestinian ambassador to the UN was on NPR, pleading for a return to the solution that was rejected by Arafat 23 years ago. What I don't understand is why there is no recognition on the Palestinian side that what Hamas did has pretty much eliminated the possibility of reviving proposals similar to or exceeding those offered during the Camp David talks.

 

[shibadekobe]

 

[me love nutella]

I just heard that 881 whole family trees and bloodlines wiped off the Gaza public registry. Gone. Wiped from the face of the planet. Some of these lineages date back to the Biblical times, 2000 years.

The violent systematic oppression against Palestinian people ongoing since 1940s, annihilating the Palestinians' past, present and future. This is what ongoing ethnic cleansing and genocide looks like.

Also, before you come trying to use genocidal rhetoric in denying the numbers from the Gazan health minsitry, the human rights and international aid on the ground have said their reporting on death tolls and on other data has always been accurate and credible.

 

[IATT]

 

[me love nutella]

Israel struck the Jabalia refugee camp with 6 U.S.-made bombs:

I just saw a video of a pregnant wounded burned to crisp, while they desperately took out the white-flesh colored baby and trying to save it.

I am done for the day.

 

[me love nutella]

Al Jazeera has been reporting an unprecedent levels of coordinating cyber attacks on their websites. It is also coming from IP addresses of agents involved in the current conflict.

This is seriously some dystopian level s*** going on, and just the level of pictures and pictures of barbarity and carnage of dead bodies and flesh in the last few weeks are images ingrained in my head that I cannot unsee or even believed to be possible. The doctors in Gaza are saying they have never seen this type of effects on the bodies before and even are scrambling to figure out how to treat or save victims with severe lack of resources at their disposal and near full collapse. They're the true heroes.

It is beyond incomprehensible, and some of you wonder why your beloved sheep in wolf's clothing Western governments/Israel are seen as the supervillains and devils in disguise of the world. The only language they understand is violence, death and destruction. That is how they maintain a chokehold on the colonized and the oppressed they continue to slaughter and plunder for power, land, wealth & resources. Then you wonder why they receive blowback by violence from years of torment, suffering and violence on the oppressed. This is why.

Israel doesn’t have to justify doing this because Israel is above the law. Israel is above the moral compass. It’s been permitted to carry out the worst crimes against humanity without any sense of accountability to anyone for decades. As long as the U.S. is on its side, as long as the Europeans are giving it the license to kill, as long as Arabs also aren’t taking any steps that could make Israel think again about its plan, it is just going to be full on live genocide and massacres.

 

[ballinsam23]

Surrounded by Arab and Muslim countries who'd be happy if a Jew and especially Israel never existed, but we're playing the victim .

Tell your Hamas buddies to surrender and come to the table for peace talks. Nope. They rather play and hide and seek while their own die everyday.

 

[me love nutella]

Surrounded by Arab and Muslim countries who'd be happy if a Jew and especially Israel never existed, but we're playing the victim .

Tell your Hamas buddies to surrender and come to the table for peace talks. Nope. They rather play and hide and seek while their own die everyday.

This is the problem with the Jewish/Israeli victim mentality on this conflict...Their safety requires the occupation, imprisonment, and oppression of another people, so they will never have safety. EVERYTHING they had established to create Israel is inherently violent, and they will continue to justify the violence with the racist and genocidal idea that those they oppress must be even more violent oppressive than they are, and will use that resistance to that oppression to feed the fear needed to maintain this cycle and victim mentality.

Palestinian resistance fighters will never surrender. They have been fighting since the inception of Israel which was established through their occupation, dispossession, ethnic cleansing and genocides. Only way you can kill off violent resistance from the occupied is to stop the violent aggression, occupation, Apartheid and ethnic cleansing of the occupier Israel.

Israel doesn't get to say they created a violent system of oppression, but now they have to maintain it because they shouldn't have to take any personal risk to dismantle it.

For some reason, the idea of Palestinian liberation makes them feel unsafe, and if that simple thought of freedom for a people makes them feel threatened, they need to take a hard look at themselves and their bigotry to feed and justify oppression and systemic violence just to maintain their existence.

 

[smedroc]

Surrounded by Arab and Muslim countries who'd be happy if a Jew and especially Israel never existed, but we're playing the victim .

Tell your Hamas buddies to surrender and come to the table for peace talks. Nope. They rather play and hide and seek while their own die everyday.

Garbage.