<>Kanye West & Jay-Z 'Watch The Throne'<> Ns in PARIS video on pg. 290

[ace rawstein]

Originally Posted by cartune

Originally Posted by back1ntheday

Originally Posted by Ace Rawstein


anybody care to share their interpretation of Jay's verse on "No Church In the Wild" or the song in general

Im personally not a big fan of this track but I think he is trying to paint a picture...lil blurry for me still tho 

ill give it a try

essentially i thinks hes questioning the relationships between god/kings/civilians and the church. what him and ye are doing is making up something that works for them.

Tears on the mausoleum floor / Blood stains the coliseum doors /
mausoleum- a tomb that is built in honor of leaders/kings, where they're buried
coliseum - place where athletes/gladiators put their lives on the line for the entertainment of others
hes getting at the fact that when a king dies, people cry for them - when a gladiator dies, people cheer, like their life is worthless/inhuman.
hes questioning who has the right to decide that.

Lies on the lips of a priest / Thanksgiving disguised as a feast /
pretty straightforward. everybody knows the origins of thanksgiving and early european colonizers. initial "thanksgivings" were shared by native americans as well as settlers together as they gave thanks to their god/s as and the harvest season. hes questioning the motives of the church spreading the word in a land that isn't theirs. like it was the root of evil to come.

Rolling in the Rolls Royce Corniche / Only the doctors got this /
I’m hiding from police / Cocaine seats /
All white like I got the whole thing bleached / Drug dealer chic /
this section ties in with what's coming next. hes saying that these cars are meant for the noble/rich/elite - to the successful. but there he is, a drug dealer, in the same type of car, hiding from the police, having a much lower social status/rank. all the while "looking the part" of someone successful in life,even though he gained his riches be selling.

I’m wondering if a thug’s prayers reach / Is Pious pious cause God loves pious? /
Socrates asked whose bias do yall seek / All for Plato, screech / I’m out here balling, I know yall hear my sneaks
 / Jesus was a carpenter, Yeezy laid beats / Hova flow the Holy Ghost / Get the hell up out your seats / Preach
my favorite part right here. hes wondering if god listens to people who continually live in sin/or judges people by their status in life/social standing. in the next line hes bringing me back to philosophy 101

- and the euthyphro dilemma. socrates says "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" is what is right or moral  - universally right? or is it only right because they say so? hes asking where do you stand.  all for plato, screech. i dont know for sure but from what i gather some philosophers were thought to be the annoying type, to constantly question things, and were the constant object of ridicule. basically jay is saying that hes asking these questions for you benefit. hes like do you hear what im saying? and the last lines finish it off, basically the new religion is the holy trinity of rap. father, son and the holy spirit are now jesus, kanye, and jay-z.

Pretty much 
I found the Euthyphro quote crazy too followed by the line "..All for Plato..screech" Plato was Socrates's protege like Kanye is to Jay. 

The "screech" references the way Kanye acts out sometimes he was Just like Plato. Plato was known as a social gadfly. And shunned because of it.

"A gadfly is a person who upsets the status quo by posing upsetting or novel questions....or just being an irritant"

In the end both Socrates and Plato were assassinated because of there attack on social norms. Here Jay is comparing that because he and Yeezy sometimes reference things that might be against social norms or relgion he and Kanye are being assasinated socially (called devil worshippers and Illuminati members)

Its the plight of the social gadfly. 

During the trial of Socrates...Plato wrote the Apology about the trial of Socrates

"In the Apology Socrates tries to dismiss rumors that he is a sophist and defends himself against charges of disbelief in the gods and corruption of the young."

^ Sound familiar?

u dudes did work!
Jesus was a carpenter, Yeezy laid beats / Hova flow the Holy Ghost / Get the hell up out your seats / Preach

"the last lines finish it off, basically the new religion is the holy trinity of rap. father, son and the holy spirit are now jesus, kanye, and jay-z."

^i dunno why but I still cant call it on this but good insight nonetheless 

 

[0renthaljames]

Originally Posted by i LyricaLJKilla i

Originally Posted by ThorrocksJs

People who think this production on another level probably don't listen to anything beyond hip hop honestly.This production was average.

I've been seeing this elitist comment as of late.
So to be fair...shed light on some amazing productions, overall, you're a big fan of? I'm throwing no shade here whatsoever....just a little insight. 

For the record I enjoy the production on WTT but off the top of my head:

Coldplay
Bon Iver
City and Colour
James Blake
The Good The Bad The Queen
Gnarls Barkley
N.E.R.D (Seeing Sounds album)
The Beatles
Gorillaz
Red Hot Chili Peppers (By The Way album)
Late Registration (I think Late Orchestration solidifies it's greatness)
The Black Keys (Magic Potion album and possibly Attack and Release album)
Possibly Cudi's first album (possibly)
Possibly Santogolds first album (again...possibly)
Little Dragon (second album)
Amadou and Mariam (welcome to Mali)
Daft Punk (any album)
JUSTICE

If I didn't specify that means you can probably pick just about any album from the people listed above. I mean really there are other people who can produce other than Kanye

I love Kanye's production I think as far as Hip-Hop goes....no one can top him. Dude makes great tracks, but the people that I listed above....are people who ACTUALLY PRODUCE THEIR OWN MUSIC. Like starting from the ground up, clean slate, jam session turned into great songs. I think it's very fair to say, that Kanye is one of the greatest copycats in the hip hop world. He listens to classic music/alternative music/different genres and then takes the foundation of that song and throws it on a track with some drum samples made by other people (ie Dr. Dre). Where his greatness comes in, is the mixing and every now and then he will throw in some orchestral chit. He is nice on the keyboards so that helps as well.

People who live in the hip hop genre and never venture out believe Kanye is on some next level chit just cause he has the intuition to sample The Alan Parsons Project or The Incredible Bongo Band and throw it on a track, when really he is just a really really super talented SAMPLE PRODUCER.  Like I said I love dudes style cause I believe he is a pioneer as far as making other people/produces in the Hip-Hop industry think outside the box.

BTW I also believe that Xaphoon (white boy from Chiddy Bang) is highly underrated, I've been noticing his skills. He is ALMOST like a white Kanye. Chill, I said ALMOST

-The Juice

 

[0renthaljames]

Originally Posted by i LyricaLJKilla i

Originally Posted by ThorrocksJs

People who think this production on another level probably don't listen to anything beyond hip hop honestly.This production was average.

I've been seeing this elitist comment as of late.
So to be fair...shed light on some amazing productions, overall, you're a big fan of? I'm throwing no shade here whatsoever....just a little insight. 

For the record I enjoy the production on WTT but off the top of my head:

Coldplay
Bon Iver
City and Colour
James Blake
The Good The Bad The Queen
Gnarls Barkley
N.E.R.D (Seeing Sounds album)
The Beatles
Gorillaz
Red Hot Chili Peppers (By The Way album)
Late Registration (I think Late Orchestration solidifies it's greatness)
The Black Keys (Magic Potion album and possibly Attack and Release album)
Possibly Cudi's first album (possibly)
Possibly Santogolds first album (again...possibly)
Little Dragon (second album)
Amadou and Mariam (welcome to Mali)
Daft Punk (any album)
JUSTICE

If I didn't specify that means you can probably pick just about any album from the people listed above. I mean really there are other people who can produce other than Kanye

I love Kanye's production I think as far as Hip-Hop goes....no one can top him. Dude makes great tracks, but the people that I listed above....are people who ACTUALLY PRODUCE THEIR OWN MUSIC. Like starting from the ground up, clean slate, jam session turned into great songs. I think it's very fair to say, that Kanye is one of the greatest copycats in the hip hop world. He listens to classic music/alternative music/different genres and then takes the foundation of that song and throws it on a track with some drum samples made by other people (ie Dr. Dre). Where his greatness comes in, is the mixing and every now and then he will throw in some orchestral chit. He is nice on the keyboards so that helps as well.

People who live in the hip hop genre and never venture out believe Kanye is on some next level chit just cause he has the intuition to sample The Alan Parsons Project or The Incredible Bongo Band and throw it on a track, when really he is just a really really super talented SAMPLE PRODUCER.  Like I said I love dudes style cause I believe he is a pioneer as far as making other people/produces in the Hip-Hop industry think outside the box.

BTW I also believe that Xaphoon (white boy from Chiddy Bang) is highly underrated, I've been noticing his skills. He is ALMOST like a white Kanye. Chill, I said ALMOST

-The Juice

 

[metrokid26]

I just think no church in the wild just means a flawed, lawless society. It's a jungle, and the "church" represents morality, righteousness. and we (the ones in the wild) live like animals, we aren't confined by that morality, we do what we want. "What's a God to a nonbeliever?" why would someone do right if wrong felt right, and there wasn't a higher being watching you?


 It's as if Jay was rapping from a higher scale looking down on the world...seeing the blood on the doors, questioning why the pious are pious. (which I always wanted to know too. I always felt being pious is like working out to be healthy but making poor choices for meals, where the pious preach, but don't practice.)

Kanye's verse is more like him in the Jungle itself, almost being apart of the society itself.

"We formed a new religion/No sins as long as there's permission": 'If everybody is down for it, then there are no problems. It's not like were doing direct harm to one another, it's just pleasure'

"2 tattoos, one read 'No apologies'/The other said 'Love is cursed by monogamy'/That's something that the pastor don't preach/That's something the teacher can't teach" - I need help making sense of that though, I mean wouldn't love be safe if monogamy was around?

 

[metrokid26]

I just think no church in the wild just means a flawed, lawless society. It's a jungle, and the "church" represents morality, righteousness. and we (the ones in the wild) live like animals, we aren't confined by that morality, we do what we want. "What's a God to a nonbeliever?" why would someone do right if wrong felt right, and there wasn't a higher being watching you?


 It's as if Jay was rapping from a higher scale looking down on the world...seeing the blood on the doors, questioning why the pious are pious. (which I always wanted to know too. I always felt being pious is like working out to be healthy but making poor choices for meals, where the pious preach, but don't practice.)

Kanye's verse is more like him in the Jungle itself, almost being apart of the society itself.

"We formed a new religion/No sins as long as there's permission": 'If everybody is down for it, then there are no problems. It's not like were doing direct harm to one another, it's just pleasure'

"2 tattoos, one read 'No apologies'/The other said 'Love is cursed by monogamy'/That's something that the pastor don't preach/That's something the teacher can't teach" - I need help making sense of that though, I mean wouldn't love be safe if monogamy was around?

 

[ultralightbeam]

Good post, 0renthalJames.

 

[ultralightbeam]

Good post, 0renthalJames.

 

[sstutter]

Originally Posted by MetroKid26

"2 tattoos, one read 'No apologies'/The other said 'Love is cursed by monogamy'/That's something that the pastor don't preach/That's something the teacher can't teach" - I need help making sense of that though, I mean wouldn't love be safe if monogamy was around?

From how I see it, Kanye, in the scope of this verse at least, is advocating polyamory, the practice, desire, and acceptance of having more than one intimate relationship at a time. He believes that true love is universal love, unbounded by the moral and ethical confines that society has attached to it. That is, monogamy severely limits love by forcing you to be intimate with only one significant other. The latter lines refer to the fact that polyamory and virtually any other relationship structure other than monogamy is heavily frowned down upon by pastors, teachers, and more or less society as a whole. The tone implies that he's questioning why this is the case, why humans are expected to live according to these rules when the vast majority of the animal kingdom doesn't, why we have to educate ourselves about polyamory, etc.

 

[sstutter]

Originally Posted by MetroKid26

"2 tattoos, one read 'No apologies'/The other said 'Love is cursed by monogamy'/That's something that the pastor don't preach/That's something the teacher can't teach" - I need help making sense of that though, I mean wouldn't love be safe if monogamy was around?

From how I see it, Kanye, in the scope of this verse at least, is advocating polyamory, the practice, desire, and acceptance of having more than one intimate relationship at a time. He believes that true love is universal love, unbounded by the moral and ethical confines that society has attached to it. That is, monogamy severely limits love by forcing you to be intimate with only one significant other. The latter lines refer to the fact that polyamory and virtually any other relationship structure other than monogamy is heavily frowned down upon by pastors, teachers, and more or less society as a whole. The tone implies that he's questioning why this is the case, why humans are expected to live according to these rules when the vast majority of the animal kingdom doesn't, why we have to educate ourselves about polyamory, etc.

 

[king arthur]

Originally Posted by Ace Rawstein

Originally Posted by cartune

Originally Posted by back1ntheday

ill give it a try

essentially i thinks hes questioning the relationships between god/kings/civilians and the church. what him and ye are doing is making up something that works for them.

Tears on the mausoleum floor / Blood stains the coliseum doors /
mausoleum- a tomb that is built in honor of leaders/kings, where they're buried
coliseum - place where athletes/gladiators put their lives on the line for the entertainment of others
hes getting at the fact that when a king dies, people cry for them - when a gladiator dies, people cheer, like their life is worthless/inhuman.
hes questioning who has the right to decide that.

Lies on the lips of a priest / Thanksgiving disguised as a feast /
pretty straightforward. everybody knows the origins of thanksgiving and early european colonizers. initial "thanksgivings" were shared by native americans as well as settlers together as they gave thanks to their god/s as and the harvest season. hes questioning the motives of the church spreading the word in a land that isn't theirs. like it was the root of evil to come.

Rolling in the Rolls Royce Corniche / Only the doctors got this /
I’m hiding from police / Cocaine seats /
All white like I got the whole thing bleached / Drug dealer chic /
this section ties in with what's coming next. hes saying that these cars are meant for the noble/rich/elite - to the successful. but there he is, a drug dealer, in the same type of car, hiding from the police, having a much lower social status/rank. all the while "looking the part" of someone successful in life,even though he gained his riches be selling.

I’m wondering if a thug’s prayers reach / Is Pious pious cause God loves pious? /
Socrates asked whose bias do yall seek / All for Plato, screech / I’m out here balling, I know yall hear my sneaks
 / Jesus was a carpenter, Yeezy laid beats / Hova flow the Holy Ghost / Get the hell up out your seats / Preach
my favorite part right here. hes wondering if god listens to people who continually live in sin/or judges people by their status in life/social standing. in the next line hes bringing me back to philosophy 101

- and the euthyphro dilemma. socrates says "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" is what is right or moral - universally right? or is it only right because they say so? hes asking where do you stand. all for plato, screech. i dont know for sure but from what i gather some philosophers were thought to be the annoying type, to constantly question things, and were the constant object of ridicule. basically jay is saying that hes asking these questions for you benefit. hes like do you hear what im saying? and the last lines finish it off, basically the new religion is the holy trinity of rap. father, son and the holy spirit are now jesus, kanye, and jay-z.

Pretty much
I found the Euthyphro quote crazy too followed by the line "..All for Plato..screech" Plato was Socrates's protege like Kanye is to Jay.

The "screech"referencesthe way Kanye acts out sometimes he wasJust like Plato. Plato was known as a social gadfly. And shunned because of it.

"A gadfly is a person who upsets the status quo by posing upsetting or novel questions....or just being an irritant"

In the end both Socrates and Plato were assassinated because of there attack on social norms. Here Jay is comparing that because he and Yeezy sometimes reference things that might be against social norms or relgion he and Kanye are being assasinated socially (called devil worshippers and Illuminati members)

Its the plight of the social gadfly.

During the trial of Socrates...Plato wrote the Apology about the trial of Socrates

"In the Apology Socrates tries to dismiss rumors that he is a sophist and defends himself against charges of disbelief in the gods and corruption of the young."

^ Sound familiar?

u dudes did work!
Jesus was a carpenter, Yeezy laid beats / Hova flow the Holy Ghost / Get the hell up out your seats / Preach

"the last lines finish it off, basically the new religion is the holy trinity of rap. father, son and the holy spirit are now jesus, kanye, and jay-z."

^i dunno why but I still cant call it on this but good insight nonetheless

and
I took the Hook to be that a non believer trumps all. Everyone else is ruled by something. A non believer is ruled by himself (that kinda ties back into the subjective truth line, find your own truth)

but ill leave it like this Jay is just a deeply introspective individual. I mean to deal drugs and do all the "bad" or what society deems bad in life then to raise to such great success in life must leave him with more questions than answers. Most pressing I would suggest is "Why me?"

if you read his book he talks having to sell drugs and thedynamicof being a castoff ofsociety expected to sell drugs so hemerely obliged.

I could talk about this for a whole post but ill let me say it himself

 

[king arthur]

Originally Posted by Ace Rawstein

Originally Posted by cartune

Originally Posted by back1ntheday

ill give it a try

essentially i thinks hes questioning the relationships between god/kings/civilians and the church. what him and ye are doing is making up something that works for them.

Tears on the mausoleum floor / Blood stains the coliseum doors /
mausoleum- a tomb that is built in honor of leaders/kings, where they're buried
coliseum - place where athletes/gladiators put their lives on the line for the entertainment of others
hes getting at the fact that when a king dies, people cry for them - when a gladiator dies, people cheer, like their life is worthless/inhuman.
hes questioning who has the right to decide that.

Lies on the lips of a priest / Thanksgiving disguised as a feast /
pretty straightforward. everybody knows the origins of thanksgiving and early european colonizers. initial "thanksgivings" were shared by native americans as well as settlers together as they gave thanks to their god/s as and the harvest season. hes questioning the motives of the church spreading the word in a land that isn't theirs. like it was the root of evil to come.

Rolling in the Rolls Royce Corniche / Only the doctors got this /
I’m hiding from police / Cocaine seats /
All white like I got the whole thing bleached / Drug dealer chic /
this section ties in with what's coming next. hes saying that these cars are meant for the noble/rich/elite - to the successful. but there he is, a drug dealer, in the same type of car, hiding from the police, having a much lower social status/rank. all the while "looking the part" of someone successful in life,even though he gained his riches be selling.

I’m wondering if a thug’s prayers reach / Is Pious pious cause God loves pious? /
Socrates asked whose bias do yall seek / All for Plato, screech / I’m out here balling, I know yall hear my sneaks
 / Jesus was a carpenter, Yeezy laid beats / Hova flow the Holy Ghost / Get the hell up out your seats / Preach
my favorite part right here. hes wondering if god listens to people who continually live in sin/or judges people by their status in life/social standing. in the next line hes bringing me back to philosophy 101

- and the euthyphro dilemma. socrates says "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" is what is right or moral - universally right? or is it only right because they say so? hes asking where do you stand. all for plato, screech. i dont know for sure but from what i gather some philosophers were thought to be the annoying type, to constantly question things, and were the constant object of ridicule. basically jay is saying that hes asking these questions for you benefit. hes like do you hear what im saying? and the last lines finish it off, basically the new religion is the holy trinity of rap. father, son and the holy spirit are now jesus, kanye, and jay-z.

Pretty much
I found the Euthyphro quote crazy too followed by the line "..All for Plato..screech" Plato was Socrates's protege like Kanye is to Jay.

The "screech"referencesthe way Kanye acts out sometimes he wasJust like Plato. Plato was known as a social gadfly. And shunned because of it.

"A gadfly is a person who upsets the status quo by posing upsetting or novel questions....or just being an irritant"

In the end both Socrates and Plato were assassinated because of there attack on social norms. Here Jay is comparing that because he and Yeezy sometimes reference things that might be against social norms or relgion he and Kanye are being assasinated socially (called devil worshippers and Illuminati members)

Its the plight of the social gadfly.

During the trial of Socrates...Plato wrote the Apology about the trial of Socrates

"In the Apology Socrates tries to dismiss rumors that he is a sophist and defends himself against charges of disbelief in the gods and corruption of the young."

^ Sound familiar?

u dudes did work!
Jesus was a carpenter, Yeezy laid beats / Hova flow the Holy Ghost / Get the hell up out your seats / Preach

"the last lines finish it off, basically the new religion is the holy trinity of rap. father, son and the holy spirit are now jesus, kanye, and jay-z."

^i dunno why but I still cant call it on this but good insight nonetheless

and
I took the Hook to be that a non believer trumps all. Everyone else is ruled by something. A non believer is ruled by himself (that kinda ties back into the subjective truth line, find your own truth)

but ill leave it like this Jay is just a deeply introspective individual. I mean to deal drugs and do all the "bad" or what society deems bad in life then to raise to such great success in life must leave him with more questions than answers. Most pressing I would suggest is "Why me?"

if you read his book he talks having to sell drugs and thedynamicof being a castoff ofsociety expected to sell drugs so hemerely obliged.

I could talk about this for a whole post but ill let me say it himself

 

[deleted]

Originally Posted by 0renthalJames

the people that I listed above....are people who ACTUALLY PRODUCE THEIR OWN MUSIC. Like starting from the ground up, clean slate, jam session turned into great songs. I think it's very fair to say, that Kanye is one of the greatest copycats in the hip hop world. He listens to classic music/alternative music/different genres and then takes the foundation of that song and throws it on a track with some drum samples made by other people

Gnarls Barkley, Gorillaz, Daft Punk and Justice all use samples though...and heavily.

 

[deleted]

Originally Posted by 0renthalJames

the people that I listed above....are people who ACTUALLY PRODUCE THEIR OWN MUSIC. Like starting from the ground up, clean slate, jam session turned into great songs. I think it's very fair to say, that Kanye is one of the greatest copycats in the hip hop world. He listens to classic music/alternative music/different genres and then takes the foundation of that song and throws it on a track with some drum samples made by other people

Gnarls Barkley, Gorillaz, Daft Punk and Justice all use samples though...and heavily.

 

[king arthur]

*let him say it himself

and for the record im a huge fan of dude and think all the devil Illuminati is non nonsensical ignorance

what he believes is just that for him to believe not my or anyone else's business to judge

only break down what dude is trying to say bar for bar
to better understand

 

[king arthur]

*let him say it himself

and for the record im a huge fan of dude and think all the devil Illuminati is non nonsensical ignorance

what he believes is just that for him to believe not my or anyone else's business to judge

only break down what dude is trying to say bar for bar
to better understand

 

[ihust1e]

 

[ihust1e]

 

[caerus]

Ya doing work! good info...Alot of people say we look to much into Jay lines, but after hearing Jay & actually meeting him, this dude really does seem very educated about past history & is a very bright dude.

 

[caerus]

Ya doing work! good info...Alot of people say we look to much into Jay lines, but after hearing Jay & actually meeting him, this dude really does seem very educated about past history & is a very bright dude.

 

[Pathos]

^ that avy

 

[Pathos]

^ that avy

 

[0renthaljames]

Originally Posted by PLVN

Originally Posted by 0renthalJames

the people that I listed above....are people who ACTUALLY PRODUCE THEIR OWN MUSIC. Like starting from the ground up, clean slate, jam session turned into great songs. I think it's very fair to say, that Kanye is one of the greatest copycats in the hip hop world. He listens to classic music/alternative music/different genres and then takes the foundation of that song and throws it on a track with some drum samples made by other people

Gnarls Barkley, Gorillaz, Daft Punk and Justice all use samples though...and heavily.

Not everyone I listed is completely clean from samples. But they do create their own music, more than Kanye and have produced better albums than WTT. Gnarls and Gorillaz can sample an essence of a song and create almost a totally new record (said almost). Instead of directly biting a song and using it's entire foundation for a beat and to go as far as throwing that artist sampled on a hook...like Ye. Like stated before I like the production on the album, but to say it's next level, is far fetched.

-The Juice

 

[0renthaljames]

Originally Posted by PLVN

Originally Posted by 0renthalJames

the people that I listed above....are people who ACTUALLY PRODUCE THEIR OWN MUSIC. Like starting from the ground up, clean slate, jam session turned into great songs. I think it's very fair to say, that Kanye is one of the greatest copycats in the hip hop world. He listens to classic music/alternative music/different genres and then takes the foundation of that song and throws it on a track with some drum samples made by other people

Gnarls Barkley, Gorillaz, Daft Punk and Justice all use samples though...and heavily.

Not everyone I listed is completely clean from samples. But they do create their own music, more than Kanye and have produced better albums than WTT. Gnarls and Gorillaz can sample an essence of a song and create almost a totally new record (said almost). Instead of directly biting a song and using it's entire foundation for a beat and to go as far as throwing that artist sampled on a hook...like Ye. Like stated before I like the production on the album, but to say it's next level, is far fetched.

-The Juice

 

[deleted]

True...but you're putting it up against every other genre of music instead of just taking it in it's context as a rap album.

 

[deleted]

True...but you're putting it up against every other genre of music instead of just taking it in it's context as a rap album.