- 962
- 32
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2009
You know we don't really have a free market system, right?
Moore's Capitalism: A Love Story....
- Thread in 'General' Thread starter Started by 38816,
- Start date
- 962
- 32
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2009
You know we don't really have a free market system, right?
- 617
- 10
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2006
You are conflating a monetary system with an economic system.
- 617
- 10
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2006
You are conflating a monetary system with an economic system.
3
38816
Guest
um...whats happening now isn't far off from "killing and pillaging", tho.
like i said, in theory, in the fashion all you finace majors love to gush about capitalism, IS a perfect system.
but then you have pseduo-monopolies, an over abundence in corporate potical power, and legislation designed to allow these corporations to basically kill and pillage.........legally.
one part moore used in his film,
this juvenile delinquent center was just opened in this county. being the free market, capitalist country we are, it was owned and operated privately. This company was actually making a profit off of the juveniles they housed.
that's all fine and dandy......theoretically, that should be the best operating center out.....because its private....and for-profit endevors always encourage improvements to the system, correct?
however, what was happening, they were paying off two juvenile court judges to convict more children.....knowing that once the kids were there, the staff of the center had the final stay on when the kid was "ready" to leave...
dudes got 2 month sentences in 45 seconds....then were held there for like 8 months...
now, had the story ended there, i'm sure all of you would bash moore about how he edited the story, or had some sort of bias...
those judges and the company that operated the center? all in federal prison...
the more you're about a bottom line, the less morality matters to you....
yall can gush to me about the theory of capitalism all you want...
i can clearly see the results of it's actual practice.
but of course, see: the evil that men do
3
38816
Guest
um...whats happening now isn't far off from "killing and pillaging", tho.
like i said, in theory, in the fashion all you finace majors love to gush about capitalism, IS a perfect system.
but then you have pseduo-monopolies, an over abundence in corporate potical power, and legislation designed to allow these corporations to basically kill and pillage.........legally.
one part moore used in his film,
this juvenile delinquent center was just opened in this county. being the free market, capitalist country we are, it was owned and operated privately. This company was actually making a profit off of the juveniles they housed.
that's all fine and dandy......theoretically, that should be the best operating center out.....because its private....and for-profit endevors always encourage improvements to the system, correct?
however, what was happening, they were paying off two juvenile court judges to convict more children.....knowing that once the kids were there, the staff of the center had the final stay on when the kid was "ready" to leave...
dudes got 2 month sentences in 45 seconds....then were held there for like 8 months...
now, had the story ended there, i'm sure all of you would bash moore about how he edited the story, or had some sort of bias...
those judges and the company that operated the center? all in federal prison...
the more you're about a bottom line, the less morality matters to you....
yall can gush to me about the theory of capitalism all you want...
i can clearly see the results of it's actual practice.
but of course, see: the evil that men do
3
38816
Guest
if the USA was truely capitalist and truely believed in a free market....
the banks and the american car industry would have tanked.
period.
so keep the theory in the classroom, sirs.
the banks and the american car industry would have tanked.
period.
so keep the theory in the classroom, sirs.
3
38816
Guest
if the USA was truely capitalist and truely believed in a free market....
the banks and the american car industry would have tanked.
period.
so keep the theory in the classroom, sirs.
the banks and the american car industry would have tanked.
period.
so keep the theory in the classroom, sirs.
- 962
- 32
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2009
So let me ask you. What sort of system does Michael Moore or you propose? How would it work and why would it be better than what we have?
- 962
- 32
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2009
So let me ask you. What sort of system does Michael Moore or you propose? How would it work and why would it be better than what we have?
- 826
- 10
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
The thing is though, that you're basing your opinion on a cherry-picked example that suited Mr. Moore's agenda... Obviously there's going to be instancesOriginally Posted by eNPHAN
um...whats happening now isn't far off from "killing and pillaging", tho.
like i said, in theory, in the fashion all you finace majors love to gush about capitalism, IS a perfect system.
but then you have pseduo-monopolies, an over abundence in corporate potical power, and legislation designed to allow these corporations to basically kill and pillage.........legally.
one part moore used in his film,
this juvenile delinquent center was just opened in this county. being the free market, capitalist country we are, it was owned and operated privately. This company was actually making a profit off of the juveniles they housed.
that's all fine and dandy......theoretically, that should be the best operating center out.....because its private....and for-profit endevors always encourage improvements to the system, correct?
however, what was happening, they were paying off two juvenile court judges to convict more children.....knowing that once the kids were there, the staff of the center had the final stay on when the kid was "ready" to leave...
dudes got 2 month sentences in 45 seconds....then were held there for like 8 months...
now, had the story ended there, i'm sure all of you would bash moore about how he edited the story, or had some sort of bias...
those judges and the company that operated the center? all in federal prison...
the more you're about a bottom line, the less morality matters to you....
yall can gush to me about the theory of capitalism all you want...
i can clearly see the results of it's actual practice.
where people act immorally and take advantage of the system, but a few cases like this can hardly be used to discredit capitalism as a whole.
- 826
- 10
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
The thing is though, that you're basing your opinion on a cherry-picked example that suited Mr. Moore's agenda... Obviously there's going to be instancesOriginally Posted by eNPHAN
um...whats happening now isn't far off from "killing and pillaging", tho.
like i said, in theory, in the fashion all you finace majors love to gush about capitalism, IS a perfect system.
but then you have pseduo-monopolies, an over abundence in corporate potical power, and legislation designed to allow these corporations to basically kill and pillage.........legally.
one part moore used in his film,
this juvenile delinquent center was just opened in this county. being the free market, capitalist country we are, it was owned and operated privately. This company was actually making a profit off of the juveniles they housed.
that's all fine and dandy......theoretically, that should be the best operating center out.....because its private....and for-profit endevors always encourage improvements to the system, correct?
however, what was happening, they were paying off two juvenile court judges to convict more children.....knowing that once the kids were there, the staff of the center had the final stay on when the kid was "ready" to leave...
dudes got 2 month sentences in 45 seconds....then were held there for like 8 months...
now, had the story ended there, i'm sure all of you would bash moore about how he edited the story, or had some sort of bias...
those judges and the company that operated the center? all in federal prison...
the more you're about a bottom line, the less morality matters to you....
yall can gush to me about the theory of capitalism all you want...
i can clearly see the results of it's actual practice.
where people act immorally and take advantage of the system, but a few cases like this can hardly be used to discredit capitalism as a whole.
- 617
- 10
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2006
This I agree with.
- 617
- 10
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2006
This I agree with.
3
38816
Guest
on NT of all places?
i asked for a discussion about THE FILM
not about capitalism.
not about free markets.
not about finance.
the FILM, as a FILM....
and i have STILL yet to see a single comment about THE FILM
yall havent even seen it, yall just automatically defending capitalism theory and dismissing mike moore....
the movie dead $%! had me emo....seeing stars and stripes....wanting to get involved in politics....
and typically, movies don't even move me.
So let me ask you. What sort of system does Michael Moore or you propose? How would it work and why would it be better than what we have?
watch the movie, bro bro
its on netflix instant query, and you can prolly find it on youtube.
what i got a sense of, he was advocating REAL democracy.....a semi-democratic socialist type of movement, where the lower class recreates the middle class, much like in the 20s and 30s when the unions were at war with corporations....where we realize and excercise the power we posses.
he's saying that we must lead an american revolution as the bottom 95 percent against the top 1%, which is why i use the word socialist for lack of a better word...he's basically calling us lazy americans out on what we're LETTING happen.....and telling us to do something about it....
he's actually all about a free market.....a REAL free market....
he used two companies as examples...one was a computer chip company....and every one of the like 40 employees equally owned the company. not a stock option...literally owned the company. everyone was paid exactly the same, because everyone did work. they're actually bringing in record profits and dominating their niche.
another company was a bread company which operated much like a co-op. the CEO made just as much as his employees.....guess how much dudes bagging bread off an assembly line were making? 65k a year....
meanwhile, PILOTS, who GO TO AVIATION SCHOOL, make 17k a year, IF THAT....
capitalism vs. "hippie tree hugging ideas"
not theory
real life
practiced.
argue it, tho
also, unrelated...
yo, did yall know (prolly) that in the 20s 30s and 40s the rich were taxed 80-90 percent? that's wild....and they were still caking...eating lobsters and steaks....
3
38816
Guest
on NT of all places?
i asked for a discussion about THE FILM
not about capitalism.
not about free markets.
not about finance.
the FILM, as a FILM....
and i have STILL yet to see a single comment about THE FILM
yall havent even seen it, yall just automatically defending capitalism theory and dismissing mike moore....
the movie dead $%! had me emo....seeing stars and stripes....wanting to get involved in politics....
and typically, movies don't even move me.
So let me ask you. What sort of system does Michael Moore or you propose? How would it work and why would it be better than what we have?
watch the movie, bro bro
its on netflix instant query, and you can prolly find it on youtube.
what i got a sense of, he was advocating REAL democracy.....a semi-democratic socialist type of movement, where the lower class recreates the middle class, much like in the 20s and 30s when the unions were at war with corporations....where we realize and excercise the power we posses.
he's saying that we must lead an american revolution as the bottom 95 percent against the top 1%, which is why i use the word socialist for lack of a better word...he's basically calling us lazy americans out on what we're LETTING happen.....and telling us to do something about it....
he's actually all about a free market.....a REAL free market....
he used two companies as examples...one was a computer chip company....and every one of the like 40 employees equally owned the company. not a stock option...literally owned the company. everyone was paid exactly the same, because everyone did work. they're actually bringing in record profits and dominating their niche.
another company was a bread company which operated much like a co-op. the CEO made just as much as his employees.....guess how much dudes bagging bread off an assembly line were making? 65k a year....
meanwhile, PILOTS, who GO TO AVIATION SCHOOL, make 17k a year, IF THAT....
capitalism vs. "hippie tree hugging ideas"
not theory
real life
practiced.
argue it, tho
also, unrelated...
yo, did yall know (prolly) that in the 20s 30s and 40s the rich were taxed 80-90 percent? that's wild....and they were still caking...eating lobsters and steaks....
- 4,837
- 215
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2010
Originally Posted by eNPHAN
yet, ole boy above you said "that's not unique to capitalism"
but, im dead wrong...
yo, if you work for wall street or youre a finance major, just stay free of this thread
excersize your right to a capitalist NT board and use your ability to make a choice on the free market to go to another thread.
im asking you to comment on the film.
if you havent seen it, beat it.
I've watched Michael Moore's film and he's just as clueless about Capitalism as you are. Michael Moore's film wasn't about Capitalism at all, actually.
When you have a production system that has been taken over by government, they print billions of dollars and give it to their bankster friends is called FASCISM. If you cannot understand the difference between Capitalism and Fascism, then I suggest you logout of and read a book.
I dont believe this is 100% true. What about the barter system?
I wish we had a barter system in this country. The Free Market would determine the best currency, instead of a government monopolized one which destroys the value thereof.
he's saying that we must lead an american revolution as the bottom 95 percent against the top 1%, which is why i use the word socialist for lack of a better word...he's basically calling us lazy americans out on what we're LETTING happen.....and telling us to do something about it....
Yeah, Karl Marx said the same thing and look how great Communism works. Famines, death, dictatorships.
- 4,837
- 215
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2010
Originally Posted by eNPHAN
yet, ole boy above you said "that's not unique to capitalism"
but, im dead wrong...
yo, if you work for wall street or youre a finance major, just stay free of this thread
excersize your right to a capitalist NT board and use your ability to make a choice on the free market to go to another thread.
im asking you to comment on the film.
if you havent seen it, beat it.
I've watched Michael Moore's film and he's just as clueless about Capitalism as you are. Michael Moore's film wasn't about Capitalism at all, actually.
When you have a production system that has been taken over by government, they print billions of dollars and give it to their bankster friends is called FASCISM. If you cannot understand the difference between Capitalism and Fascism, then I suggest you logout of and read a book.
I dont believe this is 100% true. What about the barter system?
I wish we had a barter system in this country. The Free Market would determine the best currency, instead of a government monopolized one which destroys the value thereof.
he's saying that we must lead an american revolution as the bottom 95 percent against the top 1%, which is why i use the word socialist for lack of a better word...he's basically calling us lazy americans out on what we're LETTING happen.....and telling us to do something about it....
Yeah, Karl Marx said the same thing and look how great Communism works. Famines, death, dictatorships.
3
38816
Guest
no, im not.
i thought this way pre-mike moore
i just thought the film was amazing.
my opinion on capitalism and "free market" and basically the way our country is being run, all developed out of discussions with my SURPRISE,part-time hobbiest finance major friend......
sorry, you thought mike moore influenced my overall ideas and concepts of reality?
like i said, WATCH THE MOVIE, THEN COME BACK TO THE THREAD AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT
until then, its like yall are just arguing theory and ideas......blindly....
yes, this was ONE cherry-picked example...but i could literally sit here all day running examples off...
why are people paid 6.25 to work at krogers bagging groceries when doing the same job at giant eagle gets you benefits and 8.25?
that's capitalism at work...in reality. Is krogers just more evil than giant eagle? no. but they're certainly trying to cut costs to compete, right? so they pay their employees something around or below the federal poverty line.....
same with pilots, they companies exploit the fact that pilots have went to school for 7 years and have a true passion for flying...and pay them table scraps....lol one chick said she had 100k in loans from aviation school......and gets paid 16k.....and waitresses at a coffe house part time....
i bet the CEO of the company that made the decision to pay them 16k, makes upwards of 10 million a year.....just a bet im willing to make...
look at corporate pay on wall st and at these banks....your 150 year old bank failed...literally failed...you have 700 million in your POCKET....and not only do you ask for assistance, YOU GIVE YOURSELF A BONUS FOR GETTING THE ASSISTANCE....
and im not talking, ooo, imma give myself 250k for a bentley....these dudes are giving themselves whole state budgets.....IN ONE BONUS....meanwhile, the "peasant" working in his cubicle 40+ hrs a week, slaving for the company, barely makes enough to pay back the college loans they had to take out to even get the job in the first place...
$+!@ outta here trynna justify a system such as that...
yall believe and defend a system of have and have nots.....with some hint at the ability for the have nots to become haves magically through this thing called free market capitalism....when, in reality, the power and influence of the haves already encouraged legislation that keeps them haves and keeps us have nots....
i see something fundamentally wrong with a human being compensated 40000000 times more than another equal human being....
like, honestly, what are you doing that makes you 400000000 times more important than someone else? seriously?
entertainment is different....its only one mike jordan...compensate him like that...
its hundreds of bank CEOS....who are replaced all the time....what do they really do that justifies them being compensated 40000000 times more than a doctor....than a fireman....than a teacher?
really?
please, through your capitalist theory, explain the morality in that one...
(mind you, these CEOS didnt found their own banks and make themselves a have out of a have not, either...)
3
38816
Guest
no, im not.
i thought this way pre-mike moore
i just thought the film was amazing.
my opinion on capitalism and "free market" and basically the way our country is being run, all developed out of discussions with my SURPRISE,part-time hobbiest finance major friend......
sorry, you thought mike moore influenced my overall ideas and concepts of reality?
like i said, WATCH THE MOVIE, THEN COME BACK TO THE THREAD AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT
until then, its like yall are just arguing theory and ideas......blindly....
yes, this was ONE cherry-picked example...but i could literally sit here all day running examples off...
why are people paid 6.25 to work at krogers bagging groceries when doing the same job at giant eagle gets you benefits and 8.25?
that's capitalism at work...in reality. Is krogers just more evil than giant eagle? no. but they're certainly trying to cut costs to compete, right? so they pay their employees something around or below the federal poverty line.....
same with pilots, they companies exploit the fact that pilots have went to school for 7 years and have a true passion for flying...and pay them table scraps....lol one chick said she had 100k in loans from aviation school......and gets paid 16k.....and waitresses at a coffe house part time....
i bet the CEO of the company that made the decision to pay them 16k, makes upwards of 10 million a year.....just a bet im willing to make...
look at corporate pay on wall st and at these banks....your 150 year old bank failed...literally failed...you have 700 million in your POCKET....and not only do you ask for assistance, YOU GIVE YOURSELF A BONUS FOR GETTING THE ASSISTANCE....
and im not talking, ooo, imma give myself 250k for a bentley....these dudes are giving themselves whole state budgets.....IN ONE BONUS....meanwhile, the "peasant" working in his cubicle 40+ hrs a week, slaving for the company, barely makes enough to pay back the college loans they had to take out to even get the job in the first place...
$+!@ outta here trynna justify a system such as that...
yall believe and defend a system of have and have nots.....with some hint at the ability for the have nots to become haves magically through this thing called free market capitalism....when, in reality, the power and influence of the haves already encouraged legislation that keeps them haves and keeps us have nots....
i see something fundamentally wrong with a human being compensated 40000000 times more than another equal human being....
like, honestly, what are you doing that makes you 400000000 times more important than someone else? seriously?
entertainment is different....its only one mike jordan...compensate him like that...
its hundreds of bank CEOS....who are replaced all the time....what do they really do that justifies them being compensated 40000000 times more than a doctor....than a fireman....than a teacher?
really?
please, through your capitalist theory, explain the morality in that one...
(mind you, these CEOS didnt found their own banks and make themselves a have out of a have not, either...)
3
38816
Guest
I wish we had a barter system in this country. The Free Market would determine the best currency, instead of a government monopolized one which destroys the value thereof.
he's saying that we must lead an american revolution as the bottom 95 percent against the top 1%, which is why i use the word socialist for lack of a better word...he's basically calling us lazy americans out on what we're LETTING happen.....and telling us to do something about it....
Yeah, Karl Marx said the same thing and look how great Communism works. Famines, death, dictatorships.
so his film wasnt about the system that our country operates on, that is supposedly marketed to REALITY as "Capitalism"?
oh, okay.
also, noone is talking about dictatorship...actually, moore is calling on us to literally use our rights as americans in our democracy...and use democracy how it was created to be used. If we americans used democracy the correct way, and actually took $+%% serious like they do in other countries, this discussion wouldnt be taking place.
if this $+%% happened in europe, there would be rioting in the streets...
people don't even vote, g.......
3
38816
Guest
I wish we had a barter system in this country. The Free Market would determine the best currency, instead of a government monopolized one which destroys the value thereof.
he's saying that we must lead an american revolution as the bottom 95 percent against the top 1%, which is why i use the word socialist for lack of a better word...he's basically calling us lazy americans out on what we're LETTING happen.....and telling us to do something about it....
Yeah, Karl Marx said the same thing and look how great Communism works. Famines, death, dictatorships.
so his film wasnt about the system that our country operates on, that is supposedly marketed to REALITY as "Capitalism"?
oh, okay.
also, noone is talking about dictatorship...actually, moore is calling on us to literally use our rights as americans in our democracy...and use democracy how it was created to be used. If we americans used democracy the correct way, and actually took $+%% serious like they do in other countries, this discussion wouldnt be taking place.
if this $+%% happened in europe, there would be rioting in the streets...
people don't even vote, g.......
- 2,078
- 10
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2009
As film i actually enjoyed. bringing spotlight to how deeply effected Americans were by the collapse.
what he said was factual, but somehow i think he's full of it. just me though
capitalism is a love hate thing expect sharks to take advantage to grow their personal accounts.
what he said was factual, but somehow i think he's full of it. just me though
capitalism is a love hate thing expect sharks to take advantage to grow their personal accounts.
- 2,078
- 10
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2009
As film i actually enjoyed. bringing spotlight to how deeply effected Americans were by the collapse.
what he said was factual, but somehow i think he's full of it. just me though
capitalism is a love hate thing expect sharks to take advantage to grow their personal accounts.
what he said was factual, but somehow i think he's full of it. just me though
capitalism is a love hate thing expect sharks to take advantage to grow their personal accounts.
- 482
- 11
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2005
First of all, tell me: do you know of any system that is free of greed or exploitation? Is greed/exploitation unique to Capitalism?
Question begging at its finest. Rather than answering or even addressing the question, you attempt to shift the onus by asking him to justify something that only superficially relates to his question. You might as well have replied by asking him to give a brief history of capitalism or something similarly superfluous.
Why?Originally Posted by stateofsingularity
eNPHAN wrote:
yet, ole boy above you said "that's not unique to capitalism"
but, im dead wrong...
yo, if you work for wall street or youre a finance major, just stay free of this thread
excersize your right to a capitalist NT board and use your ability to make a choice on the free market to go to another thread.
im asking you to comment on the film.
if you havent seen it, beat it.
Thats a very insecure stance.
Why? Because he asked the initial question and now you are trying to redirect it? That doesn't mean his stances are somehow "insecure".
(BTW, you may have meant "tenuous".)
"Were"? Because these have been fully tested and uniformly deemed inferior to mature and fully realized free market capitalism?
1. You have just made one of the most fantastical statements I've ever heard - and I'm a NT lifer. I would love for you to attempt to justify that utterly amazing statement.
2. First, this is an ad hoc argument. Second, other than making cartoonish references to historical vagaries you have done nothing to prove anything. You're just saying words that sound like they relate to the topic.
3. Thank you for the disclosure. Even more so because I don't see how it would necessarily create conflict or bias, unless your concern (and perhaps justifiably) is that people would presume that a trader is necessarily some abhorrent form of capitalist. Personally, I did not make that presumption but kudos nonetheless for disclosing.
This I agree with.
As do I. (I share this only to show that I'm not just writing to attack any and everything you say.)
Regarding your specific references to elders of the Austian School (and any other individuals to whom Libertarians ascribe their origins), all I have to do is raise you Keynes, Krugman, and Amartya Sen and the implied punch of your ad hominum* argument dissolves. And regarding your reference to Adam Smith...have you actually read The Wealth of Nations? Even just Book IV? If so, you would realize that Smith's famous "invisible hand" espoused a system that no longer tipped to favor the wealthy, but that at a minimum permitted the underclass(es) to play on even footing. I find it somewhere between troubling and revealing that a graduate student (presumably in some sort of economic science) would include Smith in your list of those defending capitalism in the face of all other economic systems.
*For a graduate student you seem blithely unaware of logical fallicies and how frequently you commit them.