NCAA Will Allow Trans Athletes: Lia Thomas Becomes 1st NCAA Transgender Champion

[osh kosh bosh]

Not all sports are combat sports. In fact, most sports are NOT combat sports, and they allow a wide range of physical profiles to share the court, pitch, and field. This is like saying that there should be a height class in basketball.

lol it's literally not,
as I've already explained. We segregate when the category significant and decisive to the outcome.
Height in basketball is actually negatively correlated with performance at the elite levels.

Boxing segregates for weight, but not reach. Why because reach is not decisive to the outcome, where weight all things being equal is.

non combat sports don't often segregate, because there aren't factors (other than biological sex) that are that decisive to determining the outcome.

again this is like saying, "why do you have a special olympics, wheelchair bound people should play regular basketball!!"
we segregate for physical disability, because being able to walk or not is decisive to the outcome of a basketball game.

How big?
Because once again, a lot of that depends on the activity you're looking at. Performance is not solely independent on physical abilities. In contact sports, there are rules against foul play, and those can and have changed to minimize the risk of harm. In extreme long distance running, the gap between men and women is closing. Are we gonna make men a protected class in this sport?

yup the ultra marathon talking point right on time.
these are exceptions that prove the rule. the fact that women can compete with men in extreme endurance competitions.

says literally nothing about speed and power sports. where male and female sex difference matters.
the gap between men and women in upper body strength is still 30+%

a female of similar skill and work ethic and training will NEVER be competitive with a Male at the same level with benifit of male puberty in speed power sports.

so yes, women can perform as well as many in archery, skeet shooting, ultra marathons, race walking.

but in the vast majority of sports that people actually care about. a man will always be better than a woman all other things being equal.

What's the relevance of mentioning that more people feel comfortable identifying as trans? You made yourself sound like a bigot.

I only sound like a "bigot" because you think calling someone a bigot is an argument ender.
I mentioned that because of the obvious; more people are identifying as trans so an issue that was once completely invisible to the larger public, is now more prominent.
and generating more attention.

if something is more common the issue becomes more prominent.
and harder to totally dismiss.

The attention is manufactured.

Very little attention has been given to mixed-gender teams because they didn't involve trans people. The attention to trans folks in athletics latches onto the general apprehension that folks have when it comes to that crowd, and Republicans have been beating that drum literally every night and day on TV, in papers, online, etc...

Mixed teams have been a thing in this country (and elsewhere) for a long time, and this never went past the local news. We know what the difference is.

obviously it's because transgender people are involved.
because transgender participation in female sports VIOLATES THE PRINCIPLE OF FEMALE PROTECTED CATEGORY.
as I said it's the same reason people don't want you to kick in Boxing despite Kickboxing existing.

it's a non sequitur argument.

I can't force you to acknowledge that you're wrong about the sacrosanct separation of genders in sports. But the proof is here.

?????

they punch in boxing, so why can't punch in greco roman wrestling. i men it's all combat sports, the proof is there!!!

I can't force you to acknowledge that we have double standards when it comes to judging performance based on biological anomalies in men's vs women's sports, but the proof is here (Semenya).

FEMALE SPORTS IS A PROTECTED CATEGORY.

THE ENTIRE POINT IS TO HAVE A DOUBLE STANDARD.

Classification in sports is based on an outdated understanding of mankind's capabilities that is solely related to their reproductive organs. I think there is room to reexamine that, and I don't think a few trans women competing will kill women's sports.

Cool bro just say that, you don't care if transwomen have an advantage. and you don't care about fairness, you want 100% inclusion.

that's a fine position to take. no need to gaslight us with this "a woman won a archery contest once so therefore there is no such thing as male advantage in sports" talk.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Guys did you know a woman won a shooting rifle shooting competition against men!!!!

So why do we even bother separating men and women in MMA!!!???
Bigots!!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[witnesskb24]

So the basis of your argument is using extreme and also rare occurrences in ENDURANCE sports (the Montane Spine Event which most people have never heard of) where a woman broke a men’s record thus leading you to believe that biological males should be able to compete with females across all sports?

And women beating their own marathon records at a faster rate than men beating their records somehow means men should compete with women? Even though the women’s marathon record is still about 17 minutes slower than the men’s

Can you give me examples of women breaking men’s records in: powerlifting, swimming, field events, etc.?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Can you give me examples of women breaking men’s records in: powerlifting, swimming, field events, etc.?

he's bout to give you the mental gymnastics.

 

[witnesskb24]

he's bout to give you the mental gymnastics.

Oh I know it’s on the way.

What’s funny is his tidbit about the women’s marathon just further proves my point. The record has been broken by 45 minutes over however many years and it’s STILL 17 minutes away from the mens

But let’s use some mundane 268 mile event that nobody has heard of as the basis

 

[shogun]

Not even sure what is being argued anymore. ncaa sports separate the males and females for a reason.

 

[witnesskb24]

Not even sure what is being argued anymore. ncaa sports separate the males and females for a reason.

Women are breaking their own records at a higher rate than men are and some woman won a 268 mile endurance race

So that means biological men should be able to compete with women

Not sure how but that’s the real basis of an argument in here

 

[Zainjal26]

Jon Jones gotta identify as a woman and start fighting women in the ufc














So I can bet on those fights

 

[gry60]

Gotta love how the goal posts keep moving. We went from talking about exclusion from sports in general to "the sports people care about."

transgender participation in female sports VIOLATES THE PRINCIPLE OF FEMALE PROTECTED CATEGORY

And male participation doesn't? You keep ignoring the fact that it has been happening with boys joining female teams too, with little noise being made.

Oh I know it’s on the way.

What’s funny is his tidbit about the women’s marathon just further proves my point. The record has been broken by 45 minutes over however many years and it’s STILL 17 minutes away from the mens

But let’s use some mundane 268 mile event that nobody has heard of as the basis

Didn't know that running 268 miles was mundane.

What the article highlights is that those differences may not be set in stone.
The other part of the article you missed is the role that estrogen plays in making those women better at running those distances, which brings into question the use of testosterone levels alone to determine which women can and can't participate in competitions.

just say that, you don't care if transwomen have an advantage. and you don't care about fairness, you want 100% inclusion

I just don't buy that it is about fairness. It trivializes what makes athletes champions. It takes more than physical aptitude to win, and there are plenty of examples of trans women athletes who don't dominate automatically.https://www.outsports.com/2019/12/3/20990763/trans-women-athlete-sports-winning-losing-transgender

 

[witnesskb24]

Gotta love how the goal posts keep moving. We went from talking about exclusion from sports in general to "the sports people care about."


And male participation doesn't? You keep ignoring the fact that it has been happening with boys joining female teams too, with little noise being made.



Didn't know that running 268 miles was mundane.

What the article highlights is that those differences may not be set in stone.
The other part of the article you missed is the role that estrogen plays in making those women better at running those distances, which brings into question the use of testosterone levels alone to determine which women can and can't participate in competitions.



I just don't buy that it is about fairness. It trivializes what makes athletes champions. It takes more than physical aptitude to win, and there are plenty of examples of trans women athletes who don't dominate automatically.https://www.outsports.com/2019/12/3/20990763/trans-women-athlete-sports-winning-losing-transgender

You’re still dodging my last post. Here I’ll add it again:

So the basis of your argument is using extreme and also rare occurrences in ENDURANCE sports (the Montane Spine Event which most people have never heard of) where a woman broke a men’s record thus leading you to believe that biological males should be able to compete with females across all sports?

And women beating their own marathon records at a faster rate than men beating their records somehow means men should compete with women? Even though the women’s marathon record is still about 17 minutes slower than the men’s

Can you give me examples of women breaking men’s records in: powerlifting, swimming, field events, etc.?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Gotta love how the goal posts keep moving. We went from talking about exclusion from sports in general to "the sports people care about."

cling to ultra marathon, archery, and skeet shooting if you want to man.

but you're right, I guess my girl beats me in a game of darts, we should square up in the boxing ring.
why not? we are basically equal right?

And male participation doesn't? You keep ignoring the fact that it has been happening with boys joining female teams too, with little noise being made.

please show where males (non trans) are allowed to compete in competitive female segregated sporting events.
not a rec league, or a mixed league, or prepubescent kids, or some rural county where they don't have enough bodies to field a team.

we aren't talking about a special exception being made, we are talking about violating the central principle of a protected class.

Didn't know that running 268 miles was mundane.

What the article highlights is that those differences may not be set in stone.
The other part of the article you missed is the role that estrogen plays in making those women better at running those distances, which brings into question the use of testosterone levels alone to determine which women can and can't participate in competitions.

it doesn't, men and women might have comparable levels of endurance, in sports where an advantage of strength and power is not useful.
winning a Olympic rifle isn't mundane either. but a woman winning that, does not mean that men and women are equal in powerlifting.

again all obvious common sense stuff, but you insist on going down with this ship.

I just don't buy that it is about fairness. It trivializes what makes athletes champions. It takes more than physical aptitude to win, and there are plenty of examples of trans women athletes who don't dominate automatically.https://www.outsports.com/2019/12/3/20990763/trans-women-athlete-sports-winning-losing-transgender

you are trivializing the accomplishments of female athletes. by your logic,
the reason that Serena Williams can't compete against men is because she isn't trying hard enough or isn't a "champion"
if only these lazy female athletes would believe in themselves then they could be competitive with men like...the olympic female archery women.


also it doesn't matter if they don't "dominate". they have the benefit of male puberty. which is the entire point of the protected category.
by definition it is unfair. even if they come in last place.

that's like saying I can do steroids, but as long as I don't dominate the competition it's all good.


you can think the unfairness is fine because inclusion is worth it. Fine. JUST SAY THAT.
but you make the pro trans position look ridiculous with facially absurd claims.

 

[WASHED KING]

Steroids, cheating, it all has to be fair game under that logic.

 

[Nike Jordan]

 

[gry60]

please show where males (non trans) are allowed to compete in competitive female segregated sporting events.
not a rec league, or a mixed league, or prepubescent kids, or some rural county where they don't have enough bodies to field a team.

You don't get to exclude categories of examples because you feel like it.

If the evidence is in less visible places, it doesn't matter how trivial you think it is.

we aren't talking about a special exception being made, we are talking about violating the central principle of a protected class.

This isn't a principle that was pulled out of thin air. It is based on the assumption that women are inherently weaker than men, and there is a growing body of evidence that suggests that peak performance isn't as cut and dry as previously assumed.

So the basis of your argument is using extreme and also rare occurrences in ENDURANCE sports (the Montane Spine Event which most people have never heard of) where a woman broke a men’s record thus leading you to believe that biological males should be able to compete with females across all sports?

If you assert that men are physically superior to women, and that it is true no matter what, all I need to do to invalidate your statement is to show that there are instances where this isn't true, and the article does just that.

And women beating their own marathon records at a faster rate than men beating their records somehow means men should compete with women? Even though the women’s marathon record is still about 17 minutes slower than the men’s

Can you give me examples of women breaking men’s records in: powerlifting, swimming, field events, etc.?

The women in the article beat women's and men's records over distances much longer than marathons. That's not trivial.

Not only did she beat all the women and men, but she broke the women’s record by more than 24 hours and the men’s by more than 12 hours.

 

[witnesskb24]

And yet you still only have that one instance of that happening.

Point proven.

I’m still waiting for the examples I asked

 

[gry60]

And yet you still only have that one instance of that happening.

Point proven.

I’m still waiting for the examples I asked

Women and men events use different apparatus for sports: javelins, discus, balls are often different, so you can't objectively judge the best times and distances that result from sports associated with them. You'll definitely find plenty of lists of women athletes beating men's records, but I wouldn't call such comparisons valid because of those differences.

With that said, my views on this topic seem to be shared by a non-negligible amount of people.

Separating Sports by Sex Doesn’t Make Sense

Though school sports are typically sex-segregated, a new generation of kids isn’t content to compete within traditional structures.

www.theatlantic.com

As with many kids who play sports in school, Ives’s teammates were his close friends, and they wanted to play together. Ives told me that the girls on his team (as well as on opposing teams) expressed support for him to play because the idea that he was “too good” to play with them felt discriminatory toward them. “It’s belittling to them to know that their own heads of school or their own athletic directors or whoever they would credit for making these decisions didn’t think that they were strong enough or had the physical capabilities to play against me,” Ives said. Just as Mandelzis told me that she could take a hit as well as the boys on her football team, Ives said the assumption that he’d be a danger to girls is an oversimplification. “There are players on teams that we play that are faster than me, that are stronger than me, that can hit the ball harder than me. So I knew that [the league’s] arguments didn’t really have any basis in that regard.” (A representative of the Ivy Preparatory School League did not respond to requests for comment.)

While the need to separate athletes by sex is still held firmly by many as a way to protect girls and women from harm, many people advocate for moving to a more integrated and inclusive approach. The Women’s Sports Foundation, founded by the tennis legend Billie Jean King, offered guidance on how girls and boys can equitably compete with and against each other: “If the skill, size and strength of any participant, female or male, compared to others playing on the team creates the potential of a hazardous environment, participation may be limited on the basis of these factors, rather than the sex of the participant.” In other words, if a girl on the football team needs to be assessed for her size and strength for safety reasons, so should all of the boys.

 

[IATT]

 

[1995]

Damn I didn't know dude was like this

 

[shogun]

he didn't pay for the blue check?

 

[IATT]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Women and men events use different apparatus for sports: javelins, discus, balls are often different, so you can't objectively judge the best times and distances that result from sports associated with them. You'll definitely find plenty of lists of women athletes beating men's records, but I wouldn't call such comparisons valid because of those differences.

With that said, my views on this topic seem to be shared by a non-negligible amount of people.

Separating Sports by Sex Doesn’t Make Sense

Though school sports are typically sex-segregated, a new generation of kids isn’t content to compete within traditional structures.

www.theatlantic.com

AaaaaH this article is one of the dumber articles on the subject on the internet. Im glad you posted it.
it reveals what is obviously at the heart of this desire to deny sex differences.


Many people have started with goal. "Trans women should be included in women's sports."
and they will do whatever mental gymnastics necessary to justify this aim. even going as far as to call for the elimination of the female protected category.

the evidence she cites?
a study that says reproductive biology doesn't have anything to do with lower female athletic performance....because Serena won a tournament while being pregnant.
and a tiny Norwegian study on teenage soccer players.

we have mounds of evidence showing a persistent male-female athletic advantage in speed and power sports.


but nah we gotta ignore that because Serena won while pregnant and a small study on Norwegian teenagers.


but hey maybe she's right, and Serena Williams just isn't trying hard enough.
if she did she'd beat the men.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

You don't get to exclude categories of examples because you feel like it.

"People should be able to kick in boxing, they do it in kickboxing"
"show me a professional boxing match, (not kickboxing or another sport) where they allow kicking"
"You don't get to exclude categories of examples because you feel like it!!!"

based on the assumption that women are inherently weaker than men, and there is a growing body of evidence that suggests that peak performance isn't as cut and dry as previously assumed.

It's based off fact that males have an advantage in strength/speed/power sports.
if you pick a sport where these things aren't important.

extreme endurance competitions, archery, pool, skeet shooting, chess ect

the fact that women can performance as well as men in non strength/speed/power is not disproving that hypothesis.
it's further confirmation.

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[WASHED KING]

Is this the bill that would block people under the age of 18 from transitioning?

If so I’m 50/50 on it. I don’t think children are mature enough to make that decision.