Official 2017-2018 Knicks season thread

[olx9o]

Seriously. And it would be another thing if the current regime running the organization hired this guy. But they didn't so you know he's gone anyway, so why delay the inevitable? Especially when you got Steve ****ing Mills at the top who will probably use Jeff as a scapegoat regardless of when he's fired. Might as well let him handpick his head coach asap so theres nobody else to throw under the bus when/if **** falls apart and he can fall on his own sword.

I halfway agree. This organization has fell apart for 20+ years now tho fam....NYK is it's own toxic entity

I just don't think whoever we hire is going to solve anything at this moment other than give the media and the fans another person to go after

Imagine you're developing in an environment with a group of guys and a coach and every year or 2 you have to get used to a new coach because the media and fans are spewing hatred towards the organization and the organization gets rid of him as a result. NO stability, NO consistency...

“At the same time, I do feel I did a great job my rookie season. Second year, they drafted another point guard [Exum] — which kind of messed with my mind. It played with me a little bit. That’s where it went wrong. My rookie season the coach [Tyrone Corbin] gets fired. Going into the second year, it’s a whole new coaching staff to get used to. Sometimes it don’t work out.’’

as stated by Burke

 

[the 718 truth]

My current thoughts on this organization:

 

[floodarea]

I halfway agree. This organization has fell apart for 20+ years now tho fam....NYK is it's own toxic entity

I just don't think whoever we hire is going to solve anything at this moment other than give the media and the fans another person to go after

Imagine you're developing in an environment with a group of guys and a coach and every year or 2 you have to get used to a new coach because the media and fans are spewing hatred towards the organization and the organization gets rid of him as a result. NO stability, NO consistency...



as stated by Burke

Frank will be just fine with a new staff because development wise anything is better than keep it the way it is

It’s KP I’m concerned with

 

[olx9o]

Frank will be just fine with a new staff because development wise anything is better than keep it the way it is

It’s KP I’m concerned with

How do YOU know Frank will be fine though?
And contrary to popular belief the whole team has shown development the second half of the season

This team AND organization still has a lot more growth they need to do...a new coach could help or hurt us but I dont think it will solve our problems right now....just another system and culture that will have to be learned by players while they are currently getting better in the one in place. It will be just another guy for the NY media to attack....our most winning coach of the past 10 years has been Woodson but we are trending upwards in wins...slowly but surely

Who knows tho

 

[njavier03]

Austin is

Frank will be just fine with a new staff because development wise anything is better than keep it the way it is

It’s KP I’m concerned with

This is why you come off as caper. No one said Frank’s name individually until you decided to vouch for him. Are you his cousin or something? Do you even watch the team for the team or only when #11 is on the floor? You get hyped over normal plays, like drives to the hoop, when EVERY guard should be able to do that. First the authentic, avy, and then flat out just dropping his name whenever. You’re thirsting for this dude more than Bron riders.

 

[nick.]

Miles Bridges declared for the draft

 

[floodarea]

Austin is


This is why you come off as caper. No one said Frank’s name individually until you decided to vouch for him. Are you his cousin or something? Do you even watch the team for the team or only when #11 is on the floor? You get hyped over normal plays, like drives to the hoop, when EVERY guard should be able to do that. First the authentic, avy, and then flat out just dropping his name whenever. You’re thirsting for this dude more than Bron riders.

Did you even read what the previous post was about?

Development

Who’s the main guy we’re trying to develop?

Frank

I swear man, you clueless

 

[floodarea]

How do YOU know Frank will be fine though?
And contrary to popular belief the whole team has shown development the second half of the season

This team AND organization still has a lot more growth they need to do...a new coach could help or hurt us but I dont think it will solve our problems right now....just another system and culture that will have to be learned by players while they are currently getting better in the one in place. It will be just another guy for the NY media to attack....our most winning coach of the past 10 years has been Woodson but we are trending upwards in wins...slowly but surely

Who knows tho

I don’t know Frank will be fine but I’m assuming he’d be more comfortable with a coaching staff who knows what they’re doing

 

[the gr8est]

At this point I don't know what the right direction is...and we as fans only see what we see when the team hits the court & what the media feeds us.
NYK fans hero JVG commended Jeff for his composure that was kept throughout the chaos and the KP injury....before KP injury we were only 4 games out the playoffs.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-k...irable-job-under-very-difficult-circumstances
When Trey first got here he could barely run P&R... now he's getting better
We got Troy Williams showing out and Frank getting better right before our eyes as well
Luke Kornet is even developing and competing with the Knicks....I'm not in love with them but...
Doc or Mark Jackson are GUARANTEED to help this team do better?
Y'all so hype to get hire a coach then get rid of him when we still don't have a solid core in place.

Players are actually showing improvement right now albeit at the end of the year in a lost season
Knicks get a new coach and the chemistry being built could dwindle.....another system will have to be learned and we could set ourselves back.
KP tore his ACL and won't be back until God knows when...

Rome wasn't built in a day man....coaches need a team of able bodies to win. Look at D'Antoni winning in Houston right now when Kobe and Melo didnt adapt to his system. We've got atleast 2-3 more years of rebuilding before we MIGHT be able to "contend" depending on what the other teams in the league look like

1st off, anybody who knows anything about JVG knows that before anything else he is a coaches coach. He would never in a million years throw an active head coach under the bus or criticize the job they do. That's not JVG's style.

2nd, Knicks maintained a playoff record up until new years because as we have gone over they played the easiest most home loaded schedule in the NBA at the time. It would be one thing if they were 4 games out and had maintained a consistent level of play all season. But the Knicks were falling hard at the time and falling fast, KP was no longer playing anywhere near the MVP-caliber level he was playing at in Nov-Dec. Knicks might have 5 more wins right now with KP than they do without him. Team was not even coming close to sniffing a playoff spot regardless.

But I do see what you are getting at. Continuity is very important, for sure, and the Knicks sorely lack it. As for Hornacek's performance, I'm not a hater and really have complimented him for most of the season. He was handed a roster that wasn't his guard happy style from the front office. Was told to preach defense by the same front office who's offseason acquisitions included the likes of Enes Kanter, Doug McDermott, Timmy, and Beasley. Yet in small ball NBA, he somehow had the Knicks competing for awhile starting Jarrett Jack and 2 big men in the starting lineup. The Knicks played a half court system Hornacek designed that somehow still had the ball moving effectively. Even with the easy schedule Hornacek deserves a lot of credit for that, and knowing the Knicks were outkicking their coverage due to an easy schedule and crediting Hornacek are not and were not mutually exclusive factors.

But it wasn't that the Knicks' play as a team dropped off. That much was expected. Hornacek lost me as a coach for a variety of factors late in the season.

1.

I halfway agree. This organization has fell apart for 20+ years now tho fam....NYK is it's own toxic entity]

First and foremost point #1 is exactly what you stated yourself and exactly what I stated in my post. Even in the beginning of the season when the Knicks were outperforming and I was personally crediting Hornacek as team MVP outside of KP, I still knew that he was just delaying the inevitable and wanted him gone.

The Knicks front office is a ******* joke. We all know that. But these ******* idiots fire Phil Jackson just to promote the ******* cockroach who has been at Dolan's side for 20 years now to team president, despite not a single iota of legit basketball experience on his resume. He hired Isiah Thomas, oversaw the franchise through an embarrassing sexual harassment lawsuit, and to make matters worse, during the only period of relative success we have had during the Dolan era, he was working for Magic Johnson's agency because the only legitimate basketball guy we have had running the operations, Donnie Walsh, made sure he got the boot as soon as he started draining the toxic swamp after taking over as team president... only for Dolan to slowly take back control of the organization and rehire Mills in 2013 once he became too cocksure and got the media/fans off his case with some relative success.

We protested Dolan in 2014 which led him to hire Phil Jackson as a deflection, then he fires Phil, just to promote the same toxic force who was running the team during the protests to the position as team president, and everyone just turns a blind eye because they were so happy Phil was canned. It is a FACT that as long as cockroach Steve Mills is running the Knicks, Dolan is running the Knicks, and that should not be tolerated by this franchise 20 years later.

I bring all that up to circle back to my original point. Hornacek was Phil Jackson's hire. You never want to be the last guy's hire because when **** goes wrong you take the fall because the front office gets a pass until they hire "their guy." For that reason more so than anything else, even if Hornacek did a PERFECT job, part of me would still want him to get fired just so Steve Mills has direct accountability to the team so we can speed up the process of him hopefully getting fired and bringing in a legitimate basketball guy to run the operation.

2. Although point 1 stands as most important, Hornacek lost me down the stretch regardless and convinced me he isnt the coach for this team for a number of other reasons I'm about to go over. Although I certainly don't believe that he is a "bad" basketball coach by any standard.

Relying on Jarrett Jack as the starter for as long as he did was ridiculous. It demonstrates a lack of trust in the young players and a lack of willingness to let them play through their mistakes and develop. I dont discount Frank for his own lack of development this season or discount the role age took in the equation as well, but it certainly isn't a good look for Hornacek as the top of the list for any potential head coaching candidate for the Knicks right now should read "PLAYER DEVELOPMENT."

With KP/Frank and another top 10 pick to come in such critical phases of their career, player development stands above all else right now even if that coach was good at player development and sucked in games like Scott Brooks. We can afford another season in the loss column but we CANNOT waste another season with a coach who struggles developing young players (also another reason why doc Rivers is an even more ****** candidate than Hornacek, but at least he would fit part 1 of my equation).

On a similar note, as much as I credited him for shaping an offense that facilitated ball movement during the beginning of the season in a half court setting that really got the most out of a lineup featuring 35 low post big men and a 34 year-old starting PG, Jeff's lack of willingness to tweek the offense after the all-star break shows me the same negative signs as sticking with Jack for so long.

The half-court style offense suited 2 bigs and Jack, it did not suit 3 PGs all under the age of 25 and only 1 big man at a time. That also held back Frank and some of the other young players IMO. Frank is already young and raw and new to the NBA, but trying to orchestrate against NBA defenders in a half court setting all the time certainly didn't help his case as many of the best plays we have seen this season out of Frank have come on the break.

Conflict with Noah was a really bad look. Locker room seemed to develop into chaos a little bit (nothing like last year, which he also coached the team for, but gets a slight pass because of Phil) towards the end of the season. At the end of the day, Noah is here on a guaranteed long-term contract, Hornacek is not. Noah is also well-respected by the players and now has the NBPA on his side. That cant be a good look for Hornacek not only in our own locker room but around the League.

He comes across as a bit of a pushover at times. Doesn't always command respect. Saw that in Phoenix when it certainly wasn't all his fault or even mostly his fault, but he definitely lost control at the end and came across as weak when he was publicly aired out by Markieff Morris. Same thing with the Knicks last year. Wasn't all his fault or mostly his fault but he was still the head coach of one of the most dysfunctional seasons we have seen in a long, storied tradition of dysfunctional seasons.

He also came across as weak by succumbing to Phil Jackson and bringing back the triangle midway through the season. A great coach should always stand up for himself and coach the team to the best of his abilities at all times, even if it costs him his job. Because great coaches know that bending over backwards to the front office and coaching just to protect their job would likely cost them their jobs in the long-run anyway.

If you wanna talk about Van Gundy, I would have loved, LOVED to see Ernie Grunfeld or any other front office guy, come into one of JVG's practices and try to monitor the way he coached the team. Read the book Just Ballin' about the '99 Knicks to get the inside scoop about the way JVG felt about front office interference on his basketball team. Jeff would have died on his sword and left kicking and screaming before he gave into a front office demand about how he should coach/handle his basketball team. If he coached to save his job we would have never even had a '99 Finals run to make him a legend in the first place. Or he would leave entirely before that happened, like he ended up doing when Dolan's stench got more and more powerful. Regardless, the last thing JVG would EVER do as a coach is bend over backwards to his organization's front office and coach to protect his job.

The same is true with Pat Riley. The same is even true of Phil ******* Jackson himself who notoriously HATED Jerry Kraue and constantly feuded with him publicly and disdained him trying to have any sort of influence whatsoever over the players and the team. Great coaches should either be like-minded with great front offices, left to do their own thing by uninvolved front offices, or in renegade combative mode when dealing with a confrontational front office. But the one thing they should never do is give in and come across as weak, especially midway through the season. So yeah, that was something else that made Hornacek come across as a weak leader and contributed to the dysfunction that was the 2017 Knicks.

He never fired Kurt Rambis.... enough said.

And that's just all I can think of off the top of my head about why Hornacek isn't the right coach for us. But again, 75% of my reasoning all has to do with #1. That we need to allow this franchise to hire "their guy" and claim full accountability over this team good or bad. If it wasn't for that reason I might be more willing to overlook some of the other **** I wrote and get down with the "why not give the guy one last shot" mentality.

With "the last guy's hire" in place there will always be a barrier between the front office and full accountability until they hire "their guy" whether that is this summer or the next, and that isn't good considering that the front office themselves are just another barrier of accountability for Dolan. We definitely don't want 2 barriers from Dolan on an organization that runs from accountability more so than anything else, so yeah, Jeff's gotta go.

“At the same time, I do feel I did a great job my rookie season. Second year, they drafted another point guard [Exum] — which kind of messed with my mind. It played with me a little bit. That’s where it went wrong. My rookie season the coach [Tyrone Corbin] gets fired. Going into the second year, it’s a whole new coaching staff to get used to. Sometimes it don’t work out.’’

You can easily play both sides to that equation. It works as much as it doesn't work. Look at Golden State and what they accomplished after they fired Don Nelson with one of the worst records in the NBA and a developing young roster and brought in Mark Jackson and then replaced him with Kerr and took another step forward into greatness. Look at Milwaukee who replaced Larry Drew (and that was after only 1 season, not even 2) after Giannis' unspectacular rookie season in which they won 15 games and brought in Jason Kidd who led the Bucks to the playoffs in his first season and helped transform Giannis into "The Greek Freak." Do you imagine Giannis being the same player he is today if the Bucks decided to wait it out with Larry Drew during his formative years?

A lot of it just falls on the individual player themself and IMO Trey never had it in him to succeed in the NBA until he developed into a more capable/consistent scorer, since he is an undersized scoring PG after all who isn't a great floor general or exceptionally athletic (not exactly a premium type of player unless you can really get buckets), which took him some time to do and get that kick in the *** he needed from the G-League. So I wouldn't necessarily equate Tryey Burke's current success to coaching changes in Utah or Jeff Hornacek. It was just the path he needed as a player more so than anything else.

But like you said, it's also about hiring the right guy. I know for a fact that guy is not Doc Rivers that's for damn sure.

(Sorry for rant, it's been a minute )

 

[njavier03]

Did you even read what the previous post was about?

Development

Who’s the main guy we’re trying to develop?

Frank

I swear man, you clueless

Actually we need ALL players to develop, and not just your beloved #11. By “main” you mean “needs the most development”, then you’re correct.

 

[nick.]

I don't think it's a coincidence that Hornacek lost the locker room & got into feuds with players in both PHX and here

 

[the gr8est]

And contrary to popular belief the whole team has shown development the second half of the season

I was with you for a lot of what you wrote, but This last point is simply a false statement.

The only player I can think of on this team who has made noticeable progress as the season has gone on is Trey Burke, and that's mostly because he's finally getting a shot. Dude should have been on the team and getting PT months ago but we were content with letting Sessions ride it out on the bench.

Almost every other player on this team who matters, including KP (when he was healthy) and Frank, have seen their play drop off from the beginning of the season.

And please dont argue about useless young players like Kornet and Troy Williams playing well. That's just irrelevant and happens every season in garbage time. Look back at Mardy Collins or Toney Douglas or Ron Baker. They will be lucky to still be getting minutes next season so I am not going to credit that to Hornacek's developmental skills. They have been nonexistant.

 

[floodarea]

Actually we need ALL players to develop, and not just your beloved #11. By “main” you mean “needs the most development”, then you’re correct.

No **** he needs the most

He 19

You sound silly man

What you so sour about?

 

[njavier03]

No **** he needs the most

He 19

You sound silly man

What you so sour about?

I'm not sour about anything. You're just so pressed that its annoying, and you constantly call us haters for being realists about what we see on the court. You wouldn't be such a target if you didn't buy his authentic or have him as your avy. You're essentially asking for it really. I just want to know why you ride for him so badly.

 

[olx9o]

I was with you for a lot of what you wrote, but This last point is simply a false statement.

The only player I can think of on this team who has made noticeable progress as the season has gone on is Trey Burke, and that's mostly because he's finally getting a shot. Dude should have been on the team and getting PT months ago but we were content with letting Sessions ride it out on the bench.

Almost every other player on this team who matters, including KP (when he was healthy) and Frank, have seen their play drop off from the beginning of the season.

And please dont argue about useless young players like Kornet and Troy Williams playing well. That's just irrelevant and happens every season in garbage time. Look back at Mardy Collins or Toney Douglas or Ron Baker. They will be lucky to still be getting minutes next season so I am not going to credit that to Hornacek's developmental skills. They have been nonexistant.

I’ll have you know that I thoroughly enjoy your rants

Man, I can’t call anything irrelevant though. These are actual players that are getting a chance to prove themselves as NBA players. Useless by your standards but who knows where they may end up in the future due to this opportunity that the Knicks have given them.

Frank has been much better on offense while remaining solid on defense so far; I’m not running with that garbage time narrative as these are nba players they play night in and night out so every bit of play they can get will help. Timmy fell off after KP went down and just dropped a career high the other night playing with Frank & Trey. He’s been getting netter too so I could never say agree to say noone is developing

 

[doxen5703]

I don’t give a **** about any development or coaches or guards. Somebody just needs to make sure KP stays his *** on the couch until next season is almost over. Let him take next season off too, I don’t care. No need to rush this at all. Ain’t **** to come back to.

 

[squatchnt]

that cape is tattered, frayed and holding on by a thread. Does anyone care about Dotsons development?

 

[floodarea]

I'm not sour about anything. You're just so pressed that its annoying, and you constantly call us haters for being realists about what we see on the court. You wouldn't be such a target if you didn't buy his authentic or have him as your avy. You're essentially asking for it really. I just want to know why you ride for him so badly.

So you saying I got a target because I buy the kids jersey but you don't know why I be calling you a hater?

I just think dude has a bright future, thats it

Y'all are so thirsty to call me out for "gassing him up" that you guys be bringing him up more than I do

 

[the gr8est]

I’ll have you know that I thoroughly enjoy your rants

Man, I can’t call anything irrelevant though. These are actual players that are getting a chance to prove themselves as NBA players. Useless by your standards but who knows where they may end up in the future due to this opportunity that the Knicks have given them.

Frank has been much better on offense while remaining solid on defense so far; I’m not running with that garbage time narrative as these are nba players they play night in and night out so every bit of play they can get will help. Timmy fell off after KP went down and just dropped a career high the other night playing with Frank & Trey. He’s been getting netter too so I could never say agree to say noone is developing

Appreciate it.

I don't mean useless in the sense that its completely irrelevant overall, just useless in attributing it to Hornacek or this team's future prospects considering that this happens every year around the League on every team fortunate enough. 80% of the time it doesn't amount to **** and the other 20% it pays off for its usually just becoming a lower level role player. All I know is that I am not determining anything whatsoever about the Knicks future our Hornacek's ability to develop players by late March-early April play of Luke Kornet and Troy Williams. I do not consider Luke Kornet and Troy Williams to be a part of our "young core" when evaluating this team's future. I've seen that song and dance way too many times before.

With or without Hornacek yo'ure lucky if one of those guys are rotation players next season so it would be kind of foolish to keep a coach around because you want to take their development into account, even if Hornacek was making a legitimate difference. But like I said, the majority of the difference is due to teams resting veterans and tanking anyway, which leads to these guys getting more minutes and producing better numbers than they ever will in their NBA careers sometimes.

Yes these players are still getting NBA minutes but it's not even close to the same competition value. And even if it was the increased minutes/usage would inflate their stats regardless. That is why we see this thing year after year. Trust me, I'd love to get super excited about Luke Kornet and Troy Williams, People dont use the "garbage time" argument for no reason. It's not like it was created out of thin air. It's because year after year we see people overreact to young players "producing" during this time of year on tanking teams to little or no results down the road. Look at how worthless Ron Baker has become.

As far as Frank goes, IMO he was playing his best basketball in December. And even if you can argue that his play hasn't dropped off significantly, it's not a good sign for Hornacek that he hasn't gotten a 19 yo rookie to play any better, let alone much better, after a full NBA season coaching him, now that he has more minutes and more opportunity to produce during the same kind of games where Trey Burke is capable of dropping 42 and 12.

And on a similar note, what about Dotson? Nothing going on with him. These are guys Hornacek has had under his watch for a full year. Even if you really want to make the Kornet/Troy Williams argument, which I am against doing, you could easily argue that these guys are just diamonds in the rough doing their thing now that they have some time to shine. They went from nowhere to producing in the NBA with playing time. Who knows the coach is even relevant to that equation? Hornacek on the other hand has had a full roster and 2 drafted rookies under his watch for a full season and there have been no strides from a player development standpoint.

For some reason, I have a feeling Frank would be effected a lot closer to the "Giannis effected by losing Larry Drew after his rookie season" side of the spectrum than the "making a serious detriment to his development" side. IMO you have to go after a coach prioritizing his development, which is why I'd like to see us go after a coach with a proven track record in both player development and PGs like Jason Kidd and not Doc ******* Rivers. Regardless though, Horny aint that guy.

 

[olx9o]

Agreed. The only reason why I think Jeff should stay is to let him finish off the last year of his contract and not force such a sudden change on this young team. We don’t know what the next coach will bring. Only way I think he should be let go early is for a Jason Kidd, as you said, although that’s just my personal opinion.

I’m looking forward to seeing who we draft (hopefully Mikal) because as of now I think we can compete with Trey, Frank, Tim & a healthy KP as our core.
One season isn’t enough time for development for overseas players anyway, especially PGs...Frank should be way better with another offseason under his belt (this is hoping).
& yoooo I really forgot all about Dotson ...havent been paying attention to him. Can’t say much about him. I just hope whatever decision Perry n em makes doesnt shake **** up too drastically

PS: **** Doc Rivers

 

[Master Zik]

@ the Frank hating turning in to floodarea hating.

 

[olx9o]

@ the Frank hating turning in to floodarea hating.

Sh*t wild, dude said he’s a target because he bought a jersey and has a Frank avy. Are we not supposed to support our team/players?

 

[olx9o]

 

[squatchnt]

That shoulda been a flagrant

 

[floodarea]

@ the Frank hating turning in to floodarea hating.

Sh*t wild, dude said he’s a target because he bought a jersey and has a Frank avy. Are we not supposed to support our team/players?

I’m saying man

Silly stuff