Official 2017 Knicks Offseason thread, Phil Jackson gone

[squatchnt]

No matter how many words are typed no one who has watched the game of basketball for more than 2 years is buying into the tank. And using minny and Philly as examples of why this is a good idea is confusing.. Besides Philly looks like its got the tank on lock again this year. Look at the position OKC is in now when they drafted 3 of the better players in the league. It's not a gaurentee...

 

[flyeed]

@worldbeefreeg tanking isn't some complex idea that you just came up with. everyone understands how it works in theory. But there hasn't been a single champion made from tanking since the turn of the century. Or with more than 1 top 5 pick drafted together (The Cavs got Kyrie off a Clippers pick and a ton of luck, and this generations Jordan doing the impossible won them a title.) And with Melo and KP here it's pretty much impossible to ask these guys to just go out and purposely lose games. One is a vet on a NTC and KP is trying to become the best player he can be. And that happens by trying to, and succeeding in winning.
 

5. I just don't understand the "I'd rather be in the first round of the plyaoffs than build a team that can win the chip," mentality.

It's ironic because you're the one who's been narrow-minded in your lack of respect for the opinions of others, history, and disregarding of nuances that go beyond ping pong balls. Such as the potentially toxic environment tanking can make in an organization (76ers, who are the embodiment of your experiment failing.) If Melo didn't have a NTC and we were hovering in the 8-10 range would I consider trading him for young pieces/picks? Without a doubt. But that isn't the hand that we have. And also, this would be more akin to your comparison of the T'Wolves having KAT+Wiggins. They didn't tank for or draft Wiggins. They traded for him.

And even if you wanted to look at the most recent champion who won by tanking, the 99 Spurs, they had only a 1 in 5 chance to land Duncan, and the next picks were Keith Van Horn, Chauncey Billups, Antonio Daniels, Tony Battie, Ron Merceer, Tim Thomas, and Adonal Foyle. And even then, it's not like they drafted Robinson+Duncan back-to-back too.

The point is, there are many different routes to winning a title, none are guaranteed, and all require some luck. And every situation is unique. Right now there's nothing wrong with giving a nurturing and supportive environment in this savage market of NY to let KP grow and be happy. And getting a taste of the playoffs and understanding that he is a winner. Wanting to tank doesn't mean you're more invested in wanting to win a title, or care more about the team than other fans.

 

[flyeed]

Imo for the time being you go out and try to win. Then at around the ASG/Trade deadline you make an evaluation of the situation and decision on tanking if we're hovering going nowhere and likely to miss the playoffs.

 

[you go boy]

and KP will be a free agent sooner or later and if we do this tanking what will give him a good reason to stay? for example kevin love they were trash for so long he was getting tired of losing and wanted to get traded asap... the same thing might happen with boogie... these players dont enjoy losing

 

[worldbeefreeg]

1. You wrote that Philly failed at tanking when that absolutely isn't true. They will be a force in a few years.

2. OKC would have won a championship if their owners hadn't acted like cheapskates and traded Harden. If NY had that core, it would have stayed together cause paying the luxury isn't an issue to Dolan.

3. Tanking has absolutely worked in acute cases. Cleveland had three no. 1 picks in a 4 year span. Without that, they do not get LeBron back. They only go LeBron back cause they got a no.1 pick to trade Wiggins for Love. Without that it doesn't happen.

4. Golden State tanked at the end of 2012 to keep their draft pick so they could draft Harrison Barnes. Without that pick, they don't win a ring cause there is no death lineup.

5. Spurs tanked to get Duncan. Cleveland tanked to get LeBron the first time.

6. Y'all getting caught up in the word tanking. I'm not advocating for the Knicks to go out there and not try and sign D-league guys. But surrounding our future superstar with players who's best years are yet to come instead of in there rear view. We could have signed Moe Harkless for 45 million or signed Joakim Noah for 70....which did we do?

Having Derrick Rose, who doesn't make his teammates better and isn't a real PG isn't helping the Knicks right now.

I don't think tanking is some complicated theorem I came up with it. It's pretty simple actually. You win in this league by having multiple stars. The easiest place to get a star is by drafting one on the top 5. It's easier to draft a superstar than to sign one. Cause superstars only sign in places that are already contending. We aren't there. Building a foundation through the draft is the way you give yourself the best chance to contend and that's what I want to be. A contender.

 

[floodarea]

Philly isn't going to be a force at all unless they can convince quality players to go there. Only 1 player they drafted the past 5 years has any potential above all star is Embiid 

 

[don ramon]

 Speaking of which:

NEW YORK (FOX 5 NEWS)  - Workers at Efficiency Enterprise named all the stray cats that come for food and shelter. They're sort of treated like pets. That is how it has been for two years in this industrial area of Astoria, Queens, until the coyotes moved in.

http://www.fox5ny.com/news/215423390-story

LOLWUT.

Meanwhile I've been taking evening strolls along LaGuardia Airport's walls.

 

y'all don't know bout them queens coyotes tho? hanging out at the local bars in LIC

 

[sharpshooter718]

With all the crap people talk about Melo's leadership and selfishness, he's been a huge part of KP flourishing and gaining confidence.

He's always looked for him on the floor and been supportive in the media. You can even see that most of KP's go to moves are out of Carmelo's offensive bag.

I don't see the purpose of tanking. We have very few long term contracts. Lets keep fielding the best teams we can around Kristaps, let him keep growing in a healthy supportive environment, while we keep our payroll flexible and our team attractive to potential free agents. Stock pile some draft picks and put a good mix of young talent and star FAs that complement his game around him.

Why take on the unnecessary risk that comes with tanking? The lotto ball not bouncing our way, drafting a bust, putting too much pressure on a young star that can break him physically & mentally....

Tanking guarantees nothing.

SEEN a old melo move 2 nights ago... melo aint pull that move all year yet.. the dribble hard x crossover jumper... melo might blow his knee trying that ... lol

 

[Master Zik]

Y'all are digging up every narrative to be negative so early in the season.

Kept up the Phil and the triangle hate from ppl who apparently never wanted him here. Now we on to who deserves credit for KP's progression, Melo's time is done, we should tank for picks

Its like dudes really think we gonna become a different organization over night.

Remember when I said KP was our best player in the pre-season and everyone in here flamed me for it and said I was trolling?


Where dey at doe?

Where were you when he played like **** and we lost games?

Don't speak up now

 

[flyeed]

1. you can't predict the future lol

2. you're using a hypothetical in the past, and teams never get that lucky on 3 consecutive drafts to get 3 hall of famers. even then it isn't an example of tanking to get a chip. 

3. Kyrie wasn't Cleveland's pick, it was from the Clippers, and they had only a 1.7% chance to get Wiggins and that Kyrie pick was from a 3% chance. None happened from intentionally tanking and sucking, especially Irving who was independent of any record or motives to W/L for the Clippers.

4. Nobody in Golden State's core draft picks were acquired from a full on tank. Tanking at the end of the season =/= tanking and sucking and being a loser for an entire season which is what you wanted us to do before the opening tip. Nobody in GS's core was even a top 5 pick. They're literally the worst example you can give to support your argument.

5. We're talking about chips right, Cleveland didn't win a title tanking for Lebron. Spurs got LUCKY with Duncan. A 1 in 5 chance. 4 out of 5 they wind up with one of those other guys and wasted a year of David Robinson's career. And once again they didn't draft Robinson+Duncan back to back, they tanked late in Robinson's career as a last hope.

Once again at the end you ignore the environment and mental aspect that comes with purposely taking Ls as opposed to having vets alleviate pressure. And the fact that you can't really tank with 2 all-stars stuck here (Melo and KP.)

I was a big advocate for tanking. I always thought NY was the perfect place to do it too. You get a bunch of elite young talents in consecutive years, then you bring in the big FAs, and then you can give no dambs when it comes to maxing out said draftees about the luxury tax because Dolan's pockets. But being stuck here with a frustrated Melo in our locker room with a NTC and a bunch of scrubs isn't what's best for KP rn imo. If we're not sniffing the playoffs by all-star, it'll be easier to get the locker room and players that'll be here to be cool with the tank and they'll cut minutes for some vets / rest dudes more.

 

[flyeed]

 

Remember when I said KP was our best player in the pre-season and everyone in here flamed me for it and said I was trolling?


Where dey at doe?

Where were you when he played like **** and we lost games?

Don't speak up now

It's funny because in one breath he says KP is our best player, and the next advocates for him to come off the bench. How would that be a wiser strategy than staggering the lineups like Hornacek has learned to do?

 

[johnnyredstorm]

No one trolled you for saying he was the best player we trolled you for wanting to put the weight of New York City on a 20 year old 7 footers shoulders. We don't want him breaking down from too much responsibility when he's in the perfect developmental role right now.

 

[worldbeefreeg]

What I was advocating for was him getting minutes on the court where he was the no.1 option. I thought that Melo/Rose wouldn't run him the rock enough for that to happen which they still don't do enough. I thought it could happen easier if they put off the bench. Staggering is always preferential but there really is no difference between the two.

I was wrong in the fact that I actually underplayed how quickly KP would take the reigns of this team. He is just so obviously our best player that all the guys recognize it now and are rightfully starting to get out his way.

Where was I when he wasn't playing well? I was still right here saying that the Knicks roster has a ceiling of 7th in the East and I still highly doubt they make the playoffs. None of that has changed. And I'd argue the games where he struggle largely were because of the position he was put in (playing PF, playing next to Rose, etc.)

@Flyeed, you keep mentioning luck. Of course luck plays into everything. But the NBA rewards losing and that's why you increase your chance of being lucky. through sucking. That's literally all I'm saying. Getting top draft picks are the best way to build a foundation. It scares me that we don't have any future running mates for KP at the moment when I look at his peers as I see stronger foundations.

I don't think we are a playoff team. If we aren't a playoff team, I would rather be a bottom five team than be a 10-14 team. That is just me though.

But carry on.

I'm just going to keep rooting for KP to continue his development.

 

[worldbeefreeg]

The weight of the city thing isn't real. Those are dumb false fed narratives that are only as true as you make them be true.

NY media sucks. But guess what? These dudes are superstars with millions of dollars. It's like LeBron said, "My haters still gotta wake up to their personal problems tomorrow."

You guys act like this dude is going to have an emotional breakdown

He's a extremely intelligent kid who grew up upper-middle class and has been on his own since he was 15 years old. He's not Marbury

 

[the 718 truth]

The weight of the city thing isn't real. Those are dumb false fed narratives that are only as true as you make them be true.

Tell that to all the guys across every sport who came to NY and withered away.

 

[Air Pope]

Y'all are digging up every narrative to be negative so early in the season.

Kept up the Phil and the triangle hate from ppl who apparently never wanted him here. Now we on to who deserves credit for KP's progression, Melo's time is done, we should tank for picks

Its like dudes really think we gonna become a different organization over night.

Remember when I said KP was our best player in the pre-season and everyone in here flamed me for it and said I was trolling?


Where dey at doe?

Where were you when he played like **** and we lost games?

Don't speak up now

He waited until 1 breakout game to say I told you so

 

[squatchnt]

Don't forget Jennings should be starting over Rose too...

 

[nick.]

Both flyeed & worldbeefreeg make good points.

The best chance at getting Porzingis a running mate for the future is through the draft. Especially this class that's stacked with guards. For anyone that says you can't rebuild in New York, look at the Yankees. The biggest franchise in sports traded some of their best players & their future is the brightest it's been since 1995.

On the other hand, acquiring draft picks means nothing. Look at Boston. They traded their core guys for a **** ton of picks & have what to show for it? A perennial 45 win team?

As much as I'd like to pair Porzingis with Markelle Fultz, we're not in position to do so. At this point we just have to ride it out with this current group. KP is developing faster than anyone could've predicted, our salary cap situation for the future is fine, & we own all our draft picks. Just gotta hope for the best.

 

[worldbeefreeg]

Tell that to all the guys across every sport who came to NY and withered away.

That happens in every city in every sport. Those guys just weren't that good or equipped to be professional athletes mentally.

KP is clearly in another stratosphere than other athletes. When one comes along its obvious (gary sanchez/KP/Jeter/Beckham etc).

Giants got a wack QB and the media ********s every littlething OBJ does...he is still on pace to be the greatest reciever the game has ever seen..

Keep up with dat #narrative though

 

[everysingletime]

Rose can get better. Jennings is what he is. If Rose has a healthy yr, I'm not even worried about him.

 

[kingfoamnyc]

.500 would be nice. In a perfect world we get a W tonight and KP plays more than 32 minutes.

 

[you go boy]

So now Eli is a wack QB? Lol

 

[bigjny88]

That happens in every city in every sport. Those guys just weren't that good or equipped to be professional athletes mentally.

KP is clearly in another stratosphere than other athletes. When one comes along its obvious (gary sanchez/KP/Jeter/Beckham etc).

Giants got a wack QB and the media ********s every littlething OBJ does...he is still on pace to be the greatest reciever the game has ever seen..

Keep up with dat #narrative though

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT....................WHAAAT?!

 

#GMen

 

[ballinsam23]

worldbeefreeg I was agreeing with you until your last couple of posts about Eli, athlete mentality, NY not being a factor in a athletes lack of success, etc. Some athletes absolutely can not deal with the NY spotlight and fizzle out. Professional sports is 99% mental and alot of these guys are mental midgets.

My 2 cents is that having most of the attention on Melo does benefit KP in a way. With or without Melo, KP is getting better. He knows his time will come, idk why we're rushing this. Would i like to tank and get our future PG in this draft? Ofcourse, but as long as this roster is healthy it's not happening this year.

 

[phar0]

I'd rather grab a top5 pick this season
but getting into the playoffs and having KP get playoff experience/be on a winning team Isn't bad either
just gotta make sure we make our draft pick worth it wherever we end up picking