Official DragonBall Z Thread. R.I.P Akira Toriyama. You will be missed

[aepps20]

Maybe trunks goes SSJB

 

[jays25]

its like they dont even care about the other characters on this show 

@ "it's like."

 

[bigego24]

Watched the most recent episode and I can't say I am surprised. Vegeta usually is the crash test dummy. It is known. Son Goku was also getting rocked by Black. So we shall see what develops...

 

[bigjny88]

It never ends

Toriyama is forever an *******

 

[waitwut]

its like they dont even care about the other characters on this show 

they really dont tbh dragon ball super could be so much better

 

[antidope]

Said it before, they should have taken a page out of Naruto's book with Super. 

They had everyone in Naruto playing some sort of role of importance even though it was clear who the two most powerful people were in the show.

 

[bigjny88]

 
Said it before, they should have taken a page out of Naruto's book with Super. 

They had everyone in Naruto playing some sort of role of importance even though it was clear who the two most powerful people were in the show.

You're talking about the manga, right?  Because if you were referring to those god awful fillers...........NO, JUST NO

 

[jays25]

 
Said it before, they should have taken a page out of Naruto's book with Super. 

They had everyone in Naruto playing some sort of role of importance even though it was clear who the two most powerful people were in the show.

You're talking about the manga, right?  Because if you were referring to those god awful fillers...........NO, JUST NO

He can't be referring to the manga, because that didn't happen in the manga until like the 4th World War Arc when the story was wrapping up Up until then characters were ignored for years at a time, just as bad as they are in Z, Super, and GT. The fillers are probably a more straight up example in fact, since different teams and characters actually got focus when they went on missions with Naruto.

EDIT: One Piece is also a better example.

 

[PRIME]

There's no threat that would warrant all of the Z fighters to work together. They've ****** the power scale up so much that humans would serve no purpose in helping, and since 99% of the saiyan race is dead, there's no one strong enough or on Goku's level to help. And even if there was, they'd get washed like Vegeta just to make golden boy shine every saga.

Toriyama doesn't think that far into the story. He has a clear formula of how he likes his story arcs to play out.

 

[goldmember]

Chill with the slander. Just let arc play out first.

 

[Based Jesus]

It never ends

Vegeta gotta be based on someone that bullied Toriyama as a kid or something. Just aint right how he treats him 

 

[lamekilla]

I though the rumor was that Toriyama meant to kill Vegeta off but editors liked the character and wanted him to keep Vegeta around so he used him as a character that's constantly failing.

Toriyama gave him Bulma though. Even trade.

 

[Undefined]

its like they dont even care about the other characters on this show 

@ "it's like."

yea Idk why I'm lied to myself saying its like

 

[AIRMAXDISCIPLE]

the upcoming 3-4 episodes we will see vegeta half dead lying on the ground like a piece of roadkill

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

The "Worf Effect" aka Vegeta syndrome

 Want a quick way to show how dangerous one of your unknown characters is? Simple, make them do well or win in a fight with a character that the audience already knows is tough. This establishes them as willing to fight and marks them as sufficiently dangerous.For new villains, it's common for them to pick up the toughest character among the heroes (usually The Big Guy) and hurl them across the room or otherwise take them out in one blow, thus showing that they are the real deal. It's even a genuinely good strategy — take out the biggest and toughest in a group, and the rest will accept how tough you are instead of having to prove it over and over. When used sparingly and appropriately, this is a powerful way to establish said villain as a serious and credible threat, leaving the audience thinking, "Wow, they just beat up Worf! They must be bad news!" But if the same character is repeatedly used as the target of displays like these, then the character begins to look weak, and if abused, their reputation as the "biggest, toughest" etc. begins to look more like an Informed Ability  than anything else.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect

 

[everysingletime]

The excuses never stop lol

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

The excuses never stop lol

lmao you enjoy arguing. no one is making excuses for anything

 

[KingParappa]

The "Worf Effect" aka Vegeta syndrome

[QUOTE url="[URL]http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBigGuy[/URL]"]
 Want a quick way to show how dangerous one of your unknown characters is? Simple, make them do well or win in a fight with a character that the audience already knows is tough. This establishes them as willing to fight and marks them as sufficiently dangerous.


For new villains, it's common for them to pick up the toughest character among the heroes (usually The Big Guy) and hurl them across the room or otherwise take them out in one blow, thus showing that they are the real deal. It's even a genuinely good strategy — take out the biggest and toughest in a group, and the rest will accept how tough you are instead of having to prove it over and over. When used sparingly and appropriately, this is a powerful way to establish said villain as a serious and credible threat, leaving the audience thinking, "Wow, they just beat up Worf! They must be bad news!" But if the same character is repeatedly used as the target of displays like these, then the character begins to look weak, and if abused, their reputation as the "biggest, toughest" etc. begins to look more like an Informed Ability than anything else.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect
[/quote]

The DBZ section of that trope is crazy
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TheWorfEffect/AnimeAndManga

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Dragon Ball
Vegeta is doomed to this role for most of Dragon Ball Z. After and even before his Heel–Face Turn, his place in the plot is mostly getting the crap kicked out of him by the newest villain, including Zarbon (though he makes up for it the next time they fight), Recoome, Frieza (who killed him), Android 18, Perfect Cell, Cell Jr., Fat Buu, Kid Buu, Beerus, Hit, and most recently, Goku Black. And that's not even counting the movies, besides Battle of Gods, which is canon. It's even acknowledged in-universe with Vegeta lamenting that he's gone soft and that Goku is always one step ahead of him.

Vegeta also is on the giving side of this several times to demonstrate how strong Saiyans become after recovering or to show results of training. After healing from his loss against Zarbon's transformed state, he effortlessly defeats the same state without any injuries. Later after healing from his fight against Recoome, he goes on to easily kill Jeice, who was about a strong as Recoome, and beat the crap out of Captain Ginyu who was in Goku's body. And during the Cell saga, after training in the hyperbolic time chamber, he made Cell, who previously curb stomped both Piccolo and Android 17, look like an amateur.

Krillin suffers from this nearly as much as Vegeta. In Dragon Ball's Tournament Arcs, Krillin would ultimately lose to enemies Goku would go on to fight or to Goku himself.
Nappa is on the giving and receiving end of this. First, he easily engages all living Z Warriors who have been training for a year to fight him and kills all but two of them, then he's tossed aside quickly when Goku arrives.

Yamcha seemed to be the caretaker of this role long before Vegeta showed up, especially in the tournaments in Dragon Ball, where he was always paired up in the first round against a then-unknown opponent whom everyone expected would be dispatched easily but would end up either winning the tournament (Jackie Chun, Tenshinhan) or being, well, God. Every instance ended with the other main characters in shock that someone like Yamcha was beaten. Unfortunately, this happened so often without giving him enough chance to win fights that, by the time the Z-era began, he had long since lost all credibility.
He's never going to live down the fact that he was unceremoniously killed by a Saibaman.

Piccolo has also suffered from this a few times. After fusing with Nail and fighting Frieza's second form on fairly equal footing, Frieza transforms and utterly trounces him. Likewise, in the Cell Arc, he rejoins with Kami and becomes a "Super Namek," proving himself too much for Imperfect Cell and an equal match to Android 17. Then Cell returns after absorbing several cities-worth of people, and effortlessly defeats and nearly kills him.

Both Piccolo and Vegeta get this in almost every single movie they appear in, usually right after a Big Damn Heroes moment for them.

GOHAN fell victim to the same fate in the Buu Saga. He was built up over the entire series as Goku's successor, and ultimately loses to Super Buu and gets absorbed, even after a significant power multiplier. Although, in this case, Gohan was winning by a lot until Buu absorbed a SS3 Gotenks and Piccolo. Like Gotenks and Piccolo, he was absorbed by surprise. Not exactly, due to him being DOMINATED by Dabura. Not really dominated, as Goku says that Gohan could've won his fight with Dabura had he not gotten reckless and careless, but he was, very clearly, not the same person who defeated Cell several years prior.

Gohan gets hit by this yet again in Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection ‘F’: after taking out a large chunk of Frieza's army, Frieza hits him with a blow that renders him clinically dead until Piccolo restarts his heart.

Even Goku wound up like this in late DB and early DBZ. Both Mercenary Tao and King Piccolo defeated him with little to no trouble in their first bouts with him forcing Goku to seek ways to get stronger to overcome them. Then at the start of DBZ when Raditz showed up, he took Goku out with one kick during their first encounter and spent most of their second curbstomping him.

General Blue is depicted as the strongest of the Red Ribbon Army, being the only one of them able to fight Goku to a draw with his own abilities; in fact, upon their initial confrontation, Blue nearly killed him. He ends up on the receiving end of this trope during his face off with Mercenary Tao, who No Sells Blue's paralysis technique and kills him with his tongue.

Frieza. The epic fight against him took 20-something episodes and after Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan he still could hold his own for a bit. Then when he gets rebuilt into a cyborg and more powerful than ever, so when he lands on Earth it's expected that everybody is royally screwed. Only then Trunks shows up and kills him within five minutes in real time. It gets even worse for him in the anime where any filler and movies that have him make a reappearance usually have him taken out in one blow. Happens again in Resurrection 'F'. After taking down Gohan (who wasn't transformed at the time) in his weakest form with one blow, Frieza goes all out against Goku, going straight to his true form at full power. Goku beats him without taking a single hit and nearly kills Frieza with a Kamehameha, all without going Super Saiyan.
Recoome utterly dominates Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin, only for Goku to come in and defeat Recoome in seconds, then takes out the rest of the Ginyu Force with barely trying. This helps to establish how powerful Goku has become since training in 100 times gravity.

Even Fat Buu gets this treatment in Battle of Gods, when Beerus knocks him away effortlessly. Of course, Beerus does this with everyone. He takes Super Saiyan 3 Goku out with two hits, spank Gotenks into submission, and knocks Gohan out by slamming him into Buu. Happens twice to Fat Buu in his saga. After being nearly invincible with only Super Saiyan 3 Goku outmatching him, Evil Buu beats him effortlessly, blows back the previously unstoppable candy beam, turning Buu into chocolate before eating him, transforming into Super Buu. After coming back, he is nearly beating to death by Kid Buu. From the same saga, Super Buu after he absorbs Gohan, Gotenks, and Piccolo. He was unstoppable, until he met Vegeto who reduced him to a mere annoyance. And before then, Super Buu's only equal was Gotenks. Gohan beats him up with brute force alone after he got his power up.

 

[jays25]

Yep. It's a common trope in anime/manga. A simple way to get around this most of the time is to just have multiple villains available for the protagonists to take on, spreading the action and victories out among them. Therefore, while one or more of them might still lose to the final villain for whatever reason, they'll have a suitable amount of victories to counter it. Vegeta has been hit with the Worf Effect hard in this franchise for years, with DBZ movies probably being the biggest example of this from Cooler's Return on.

 

[hyper cutter]

The Washed Effect

 

[KingParappa]

Yep. It's a common trope in anime/manga. A simple way to get around this most of the time is to just have multiple villains available for the protagonists to take on, spreading the action and victories out among them. Therefore, while one or more of them might still lose to the final villain for whatever reason, they'll have a suitable amount of victories to counter it. Vegeta has been hit with the Worf Effect hard in this franchise for years, with DBZ movies probably being the biggest example of this from Cooler's Return on.

I think Yu Yu Hakusho balances this out greatly. Man that is a great show.

 

[jays25]

Yep. It's a common trope in anime/manga. A simple way to get around this most of the time is to just have multiple villains available for the protagonists to take on, spreading the action and victories out among them. Therefore, while one or more of them might still lose to the final villain for whatever reason, they'll have a suitable amount of victories to counter it. Vegeta has been hit with the Worf Effect hard in this franchise for years, with DBZ movies probably being the biggest example of this from Cooler's Return on.

I think Yu Yu Hakusho balances this out greatly. Man that is a great show.

Agreed, that's an excellent example. One of many reasons that its a Top 10 anime for me I really do need to watch it again when I find the time.

 

[Barbados Slim]

I re-watched Yu Yu Hakusho a month or so ago. Love that series and the opening theme is fire!

 

[jays25]

Just such an excellent show man. Good fights, diverse abilities and powers, decent amounts of focus and develpment for each main character, etc. The Dark Tournament is still one of my favorite arcs in any anime to this day.

 

[Undefined]