Official NBA Off-Season Thread. New 2012-2013 Thread Has Been Made. Please Post In There

[bhzmafia14]

I think people are undervaluing Harden and overvaluing Ibaka. 
You can't just assume any other 6th man will have the same amount impact Harden had on this team. I know Harden had a terrible NBA Finals, but I think people are looking at that series and considering him less valuable than Ibaka. Ibaka had a terrible series as well and he was having trouble with Battier, Lebron, Bosh and Haslem in the paint. I'll rather try to trade Ibaka and find a way to get Henson or multiple picks from Houston. 

 

[kevin cleveland]

No, there aren't quite a few guys on the market to replace him with.

He's 22 and a top-25 player in the league. Off the bench. Stop it.

 

[mmg]

Originally Posted by Kevin Cleveland

No, there aren't quite a few guys on the market to replace him with.

He's 22 and a top-25 player in the league. Off the bench. Stop it.

This, and he comes off the bench for the thunder because that's what works for them, he's a starter on 2/3rd of NBA teams in the NBA and is legit 2nd option

 

[essential1]

Originally Posted by Kevin Cleveland

No, there aren't quite a few guys on the market to replace him with.

He's 22 and a top-25 player in the league. Off the bench. Stop it.

That's true.. But I do think Lou Williams could be a guy who would fit decently in that same role as Solarius49 pointed out

Would be a few mil of savings a year..

Will he be as good? No. But he'd be a good enough replacement value where it wouldn't be disastrous.

 

[solarius49]

The problem is that, while Harden is very good, guys like that are replaceable and come around every few years. Jamal Crawford is the only player in NBA history with a 50 point game on 3 different teams, and has more 4 point plays than any player in NBA history. Lou Williams led a playoff team in scoring coming off the bench. Harden is a great player, but there are plenty of ways to replace his production.

You'll be hard pressed to find as dynamic a shotblocker as Ibaka at the PF position, especially one with a consistent midrange jumper.

 

[scientific method]

Originally Posted by Kevin Cleveland

No, there aren't quite a few guys on the market to replace him with.

He's 22 and a top-25 player in the league. Off the bench. Stop it.

and historically efficient at his position (49/39/85 but it's his ability to get to the line that allows him to score high volume on few possessions). Yes, more guys can come in and score. But I am not trying to have these chucking @*% #+%@@# come in the game and take 20 shots to get 18pts and finish 8-20 with 1 assist, 3tos, and high usage when James averaged 17 on 10 shots. He's also veteran clever (i.e flops/draws contact) already at 22 and is right on the outside of being an all star reserve already.

Beal might be good, but he's not coming in doing any of that right away so it's a step back. I understand the finances, I just think it's worth it to go over the cap a few yrs with our current guys. Obviously it's not my money though.

 

[bhzmafia14]

The question is....if this team is coming off a NBA Final appearance, does trading your 3rd best player (2nd best at times)/best playmaker make your the #1 contender next season? More importantly, does that make them better when it comes to beating the Heat? I don't think so. And I feel that's what it all comes down to.
Are you better a few years later? Maybe so, but thats debatable when you're putting stock into a lottery pick. Your offense changes quite a bit trading Harden for a player like Beal. That means more of Westbrook handling the ball or maybe they feel with Maynor coming back that he can take on Harden's responsibility.

 

[franchise3]

Definitely keep Harden over Ibaka if push came to shove.

 

[kevin cleveland]

See, DatZ is clearly a Thunder fan, but I think he's completely on point. The Crawford's and Williams' serve a major purpose in the league, but I think Harden is more than what they are/were. More versatile, more refined and he seems like he "gets it" more. And I'm not just saying that because he plays on a great team. I don't think Westbrook necessarily "gets it," so it's not just that.

 

[finessesosa]

Originally Posted by bhzmafia14

I think people are undervaluing Harden and overvaluing Ibaka. 
You can't just assume any other 6th man will have the same amount impact Harden had on this team. I know Harden had a terrible NBA Finals, but I think people are looking at that series and considering him less valuable than Ibaka. Ibaka had a terrible series as well and he was having trouble with Battier, Lebron, Bosh and Haslem in the paint. I'll rather try to trade Ibaka and find a way to get Henson or multiple picks from Houston. 

overvaluing Ibaka? not at all. Im almost positive Harden is replaceable. Ibaka not so much on the defensive side.

 

[bigtimejerky]

Harden is a great talent no doubt.. but why spend so much money on someone who comes off the bench. Harden's very versatile offensively, but why keep him when you already have 2 players that are just as, or even more so, versitle. His talent isn't easily replaceable, but his role is for a cheaper price.

 

[buc em]

I think the Thunder feel like getting Maynor back next year will give them someone to do the job facilitating off the bench, and they can get somebody like Beal who's a great shooter and athlete that'll be cheap for the next 3-4 years atleast to start at SG so they won't have to keep on starting Sefolosha. Those wide open 3's in the Finals would have been buckets if that was Beal they were kicking out to.

I hope the Bobcats do get Harden...would atleast give me somebody to go watch in Charlotte.

 

[solarius49]

Originally Posted by Buc Em

I think the Thunder feel like getting Maynor back next year will give them someone to do the job facilitating off the bench, and they can get somebody like Beal who's a great shooter and athlete that'll be cheap for the next 3-4 years atleast to start at SG so they won't have to keep on starting Sefolosha. Those wide open 3's in the Finals would have been buckets if that was Beal they were kicking out to.

I hope the Bobcats do get Harden...would atleast give me somebody to go watch in Charlotte.

they dont HAVE to start Sefolosha, they want to.  His defense is OUTSTANDING, he is up there with Tony Allen as one of the best on ball defenders in the league

 

[statis22]

Originally Posted by bigtimejerky

Harden is a great talent no doubt.. but why spend so much money on someone who comes off the bench. Harden's very versatile offensively, but why keep him when you already have 2 players that are just as, or even more so, versitle. His talent isn't easily replaceable, but his role is for a cheaper price.

He can easily start for the Thunder if they needed him to.

 

[scientific method]

He comes off the bench, and plays more minutes than Thabo and is in the game at the end, so his coming off the bench is kind of irrelevant. It's because nobody in our 2nd unit can score on their own, so he comes in as the premier offensive player to create and score then when the subs go to the bench, stays in and plays with the starters too.

Lou Williams shot 37 and 34% from the field this playoffs. And he plays in the East on a "spread it around" type of team, so !#!! any praise for leading them in scoring. He is also way undersized and has never cracked 40% from the 3 (was 16% this playoffs).

Crawford shot 38% and 30 this season. Again, James was 49% and 39%.

Hell, James is 8th in the whole league in free throw attempts. Career high fga attempts is only 17, career high scoring is 40, but gets high 20's, 30+ routinely; masterful execution on the pick and roll and numbers break (usually feathers a lob pass to KD).

Besides being not nearly as efficient, none of those other "comparable" guys (Ben Gordon, Louis Williams, Jamal Crawford, etc.) would mesh as well as James does because he doesn't impose himself offensively at anyone else's expense.

 

[blazers21ntnp]

Originally Posted by Kevin Cleveland

See, DatZ is clearly a Thunder fan, but I think he's completely on point. The Crawford's and Williams' serve a major purpose in the league, but I think Harden is more than what they are/were. More versatile, more refined and he seems like he "gets it" more. And I'm not just saying that because he plays on a great team. I don't think Westbrook necessarily "gets it," so it's not just that.

This. There's always going to be guys who can fill it up off the bench, like J.R. Smith too, but Harden is much, much more than that. 
If Harden doesn't stay with the Thunder, it's going to hurt them a lot--and I can see Harden, depending on where he lands, being an All-Star within the next few years. 

 

[addict4sneakers]

Originally Posted by solarius49

The problem is that, while Harden is very good, guys like that are replaceable and come around every few years. Jamal Crawford is the only player in NBA history with a 50 point game on 3 different teams, and has more 4 point plays than any player in NBA history. Lou Williams led a playoff team in scoring coming off the bench. Harden is a great player, but there are plenty of ways to replace his production.

crawford will be playing for his 6th team in his 11 year career for a reason. dude is a volume scorer that can only create for himself. he isn't nearly the playmaker nor as efficient as harden.

its not just about scoring

 

[solarius49]

I'm not sure how he doent create for other people.

Crawford averages 4 assists per game for his career, Harden 2.5.

Crawford 3 FTA's per game, Harden 3.6

And offensive efficiency is the most overrated stat in the NBA. Nikola Pekovic is 5th. Harden is 6th in offensive efficiency. Tony Parker is 75th, Kevin Love is 51st, Wade is 55th, RUSSELL WESTBROOK is 88th, Derrick Rose is 89th.

Harden is a very good player, but by your logic, he is better than all these guys too (except Pekovic of course)? Oh ok

 

[Spectacular23]

Source: Nets Interested In Pairing Williams With Nash Jun 28, 2012 12:16 AM EDT

Steve Nash is expected to choose between the Suns, Knicks, Nets, Raptors and Mavericks as he enters free agents, according to sources.

The Nets have cap space to sign Nash while also keeping Deron Williams. A source said the Nets would welcome pairing Williams and Nash together.

When asked if the Knicks or Nets were a better option, Nash said: "Right now the Knicks. Maybe in the few years the Nets."

The Knicks would need to agree to a sign-and-trade with Phoenix in order to acquire Nash.

Nash isn't ruling out remaining with the Suns.

"Phoenix has been home for 10 years," Nash said. "It’s a very important place for me. I'm a Phoenix Sun. I still am to this day. It's definitely still possible. We'll see what happens."

 

[N41D]

I had this same argument with some buddies last week... "But Harden is a bench player..."

Don't give a %#@#... He's a big time scorer and playmaker and I think the Thunder are going to have to break the bank to keep him... He hits the open market someone is gonna +%*$ around and damn near max him out...

 

[mr jordan04]

Originally Posted by bigtimejerky

Harden is a great talent no doubt.. but why spend so much money on someone who comes off the bench. Harden's very versatile offensively, but why keep him when you already have 2 players that are just as, or even more so, versitle. His talent isn't easily replaceable, but his role is for a cheaper price.

 

[hankmoody]

Adrian Wojnarowski 

 

[scientific method]

Originally Posted by solarius49

I'm not sure how he doent create for other people.

Crawford averages 4 assists per game for his career, Harden 2.5.

Crawford 3 FTA's per game, Harden 3.6

And offensive efficiency is the most overrated stat in the NBA. Nikola Pekovic is 5th. Harden is 6th in offensive efficiency. Tony Parker is 75th, Kevin Love is 51st, Wade is 55th, RUSSELL WESTBROOK is 88th, Derrick Rose is 89th.

Harden is a very good player, but by your logic, he is better than all these guys too (except Pekovic of course)? Oh ok

I'm not talking offensive efficiency or any advanced stats. I'm talking strictly field goal %s, and shots taken. 17pts on 10 shots! None of these other guys are doing that ++$%. 49/39/85

And using a career stat for a 3rd yr player who has improved every yr is going to be very misleading, but you knew that and that's why you did it.. What matters now, is that LAST SEASON Harden was 10th in the whole league in ftas at a fraction under 5 and is better than those other similar guys. And as chronicled, shot a whole 20% better from the field than some of those other guys mentioned and is just going to be flat out better no many how hard you want to try to skew and twist stats.

We don't need or want JR Smith chucking contested fadeaway, twisting 3s from just beyond half court. He isn't a "Presti guy" anyways. Just line all their basic stats side by side and James comes out ahead no matter how you want to slice it, Jamal Crawford and his Youtube-sexy crossovers and occasional hero shots be damned.

I had this same argument with some buddies last week... "But Harden is a bench player..."

Don't give a %#@#... He's a big time scorer and playmaker and I think the Thunder are going to have to break the bank to keep him... He hits the open market someone is gonna +%*$ around and damn near max him out...

Please tell me that friend isn't from/in Dallas or a Mavericks fan, and that this didn't happen after game 4. Because if so, you should remove that dude from your top 5 and call me when you wanna talk ball 580.647.0105

 

[bigtimejerky]

It doesn't need to be one guy... The thunder just need scoring to come off the bench. That's it, plain and simple. He didn't bring anything defensively or rebounding wise.. He just had to put points on the board. There's tons of guys who can do that.. Maybe not as effecient, but they still do the job. What they need is a player thats a mixture of Thabo and Harden in one, and they might think Beal is that guy. I think Harden would strive if he had his own team to shine on, and the Bobcats could be where it's at.

 

[solarius49]

Originally Posted by bigtimejerky

It doesn't need to be one guy... The thunder just need scoring to come off the bench. That's it, plain and simple. He didn't bring anything defensively or rebounding wise.. He just had to put points on the board. There's tons of guys who can do that.. Maybe not as effecient, but they still do the job. What they need is a player thats a mixture of Thabo and Harden in one, and they might think Beal is that guy. I think Harden would strive if he had his own team to shine on, and the Bobcats could be where it's at.

all of this