- Jun 28, 2004
- 6,971
- 17,045
dacomeup
you're right. You haven’t said any thing bad about socialism in general nor anything bad about specific socialists who are black.
RustyShackleford you rarely if ever say anything positive about socialists of any background. Now maybe it’s a selection bias, maybe you read about or see or personally know socialists doing good work, you like what they are doing and you don’t mention it on here. Maybe, and I’m not being sarcastic here, maybe you don’t find socialists doing good things to be something worth posting about. But it’s alienating when every time you talk about socialists here, it’s about how awful they are. From where I’m sitting it’s hard not to conclude, maybe this guy doesn’t like socialism but saying so sounds bad so he makes it about something else like race makes it seem way more sympathetic. But then again maybe I’m expressing subconscious racial biases and then making it about a more sympathetic by making it about socialism versus neoliberal capitalism since that sounds way better. Again, not being facetious here.
Methodical Management Man oh man, I wish I had reason to be as optimistic about socialism’s prospects at having real power in America. I fervently wish that the left is out of power mostly or entirely because of messaging and not massive power imbalances and bipartisan complicity in maintaining capitalist hegemony.
As far as student debt relief and the politics of it goes, I ask, when has a Democratic president maintained or increased their Congressional majorities in a mid term because they were frugal and willing to discipline the left wing of their party? That never happens. What usually happens is turnout falls off due to inaction and justifiable cynicism, felt especially heavily by working class BIPOC. The Republican base comes out and the Democrats get creamed than nothing good can happen at the Federal level and since 2010, Republicans implement voter suppression. Then the only hope is a trifecta in the future and that’s where we are now.
Wins build political capital. They don’t diminish it. As you know, this situation with federal student debt is unique in that it can be done unilaterally and it would give a win to many parts of Joe Biden’s coalition right away. In other cases, we are asking the state to intervene in unequal relations between people and capital or people and a ruthless and biased criminal-legal system. In this case, the Federal government is the creditor here. Joe Biden gets to model how a relationship between creditor and debtor ought to work and he’s letting us know his thoughts on that. Moreover, Joe Biden has in his hands a use it or lose it, non transferable voucher. So to talk about all the other things you’d (as in Joe Biden, not you specifically) like to do, in the context of federal student debt relief, is a cynical distraction. Get this win before you have to really wade into the much more brutal and multifaceted crafting of legislation. Instead, Joe Biden gives credence to the notion that politics is not a vehicle to fundamentally change your life so why bother. And non voting is not really a trait among the privileged, it’s trait among the marginalized because even if you don’t live in a State with photo ID laws, the missed pay required to stand in line all day to vote is a poll tax. If only a political tendency existed that actually cared about stuff like paid time off.
Also, when did I say only do student debt relief or never do racially targeted programs? You and I both know that the wealthy and powerful interests in the centers of power don’t actually care about the racial wealth gap when they want to do means testing. They want means testing as a poison pill so that they can demonize those programs as handouts to “lazy” people. Universal programs won’t necessarily end the racial wealth gap but universality makes them much more politically durable.
Lastly I’ll say, and you all (those mentioned and those reading this) are welcomed and encouraged to tear this idea of mine down. I believe that a lot of liberals believe, deep down, that poor whites kind of deserve to be poor. The thinking being that while black people cannot stop being black (all jokes about Sammy Sosa aside) poor white people are losers because through the osmosis of other white people owning homes, running companies and having so much cultural representation that they have no excuse for being poor. Moreover, whites, who are poor, are blamed for Republican power by the hegemonic capitalist media.
All of this framing comes in handy when a popular universal program has a shot at becoming policy, capitalist media and its liberal allies can swoop in and say “forget about this thing that might become policy, let’s do targeted stuff that has no shot at becoming policy.” Everyone on the broader left yells at each other, we get neither the universal nor the targeted stuff nor does the broader left build power and then finally the GOP wins the mid terms and tightens the screws of minority rule. The capitalist class, including and especially the “woke” capitalists in big tech and finance get even richer and they fortify their bunkers and private armies. Rinse and repeat until we’re living in a world without clouds and for all but an extremely wealthy and powerful minority, we’ll all be struggling to gain the minutest of access-to-potable-water privilege.
RustyShackleford you rarely if ever say anything positive about socialists of any background. Now maybe it’s a selection bias, maybe you read about or see or personally know socialists doing good work, you like what they are doing and you don’t mention it on here. Maybe, and I’m not being sarcastic here, maybe you don’t find socialists doing good things to be something worth posting about. But it’s alienating when every time you talk about socialists here, it’s about how awful they are. From where I’m sitting it’s hard not to conclude, maybe this guy doesn’t like socialism but saying so sounds bad so he makes it about something else like race makes it seem way more sympathetic. But then again maybe I’m expressing subconscious racial biases and then making it about a more sympathetic by making it about socialism versus neoliberal capitalism since that sounds way better. Again, not being facetious here.
Methodical Management Man oh man, I wish I had reason to be as optimistic about socialism’s prospects at having real power in America. I fervently wish that the left is out of power mostly or entirely because of messaging and not massive power imbalances and bipartisan complicity in maintaining capitalist hegemony.
As far as student debt relief and the politics of it goes, I ask, when has a Democratic president maintained or increased their Congressional majorities in a mid term because they were frugal and willing to discipline the left wing of their party? That never happens. What usually happens is turnout falls off due to inaction and justifiable cynicism, felt especially heavily by working class BIPOC. The Republican base comes out and the Democrats get creamed than nothing good can happen at the Federal level and since 2010, Republicans implement voter suppression. Then the only hope is a trifecta in the future and that’s where we are now.
Wins build political capital. They don’t diminish it. As you know, this situation with federal student debt is unique in that it can be done unilaterally and it would give a win to many parts of Joe Biden’s coalition right away. In other cases, we are asking the state to intervene in unequal relations between people and capital or people and a ruthless and biased criminal-legal system. In this case, the Federal government is the creditor here. Joe Biden gets to model how a relationship between creditor and debtor ought to work and he’s letting us know his thoughts on that. Moreover, Joe Biden has in his hands a use it or lose it, non transferable voucher. So to talk about all the other things you’d (as in Joe Biden, not you specifically) like to do, in the context of federal student debt relief, is a cynical distraction. Get this win before you have to really wade into the much more brutal and multifaceted crafting of legislation. Instead, Joe Biden gives credence to the notion that politics is not a vehicle to fundamentally change your life so why bother. And non voting is not really a trait among the privileged, it’s trait among the marginalized because even if you don’t live in a State with photo ID laws, the missed pay required to stand in line all day to vote is a poll tax. If only a political tendency existed that actually cared about stuff like paid time off.
Also, when did I say only do student debt relief or never do racially targeted programs? You and I both know that the wealthy and powerful interests in the centers of power don’t actually care about the racial wealth gap when they want to do means testing. They want means testing as a poison pill so that they can demonize those programs as handouts to “lazy” people. Universal programs won’t necessarily end the racial wealth gap but universality makes them much more politically durable.
Lastly I’ll say, and you all (those mentioned and those reading this) are welcomed and encouraged to tear this idea of mine down. I believe that a lot of liberals believe, deep down, that poor whites kind of deserve to be poor. The thinking being that while black people cannot stop being black (all jokes about Sammy Sosa aside) poor white people are losers because through the osmosis of other white people owning homes, running companies and having so much cultural representation that they have no excuse for being poor. Moreover, whites, who are poor, are blamed for Republican power by the hegemonic capitalist media.
All of this framing comes in handy when a popular universal program has a shot at becoming policy, capitalist media and its liberal allies can swoop in and say “forget about this thing that might become policy, let’s do targeted stuff that has no shot at becoming policy.” Everyone on the broader left yells at each other, we get neither the universal nor the targeted stuff nor does the broader left build power and then finally the GOP wins the mid terms and tightens the screws of minority rule. The capitalist class, including and especially the “woke” capitalists in big tech and finance get even richer and they fortify their bunkers and private armies. Rinse and repeat until we’re living in a world without clouds and for all but an extremely wealthy and powerful minority, we’ll all be struggling to gain the minutest of access-to-potable-water privilege.