***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[rexanglorum]

A majority of Americans, agree, on an increasing number of issues, with the “faculty lounge.” Railing against college professors had a lot more traction when the country was 80% white and the average white person was growing wealthier. The median voter is increasingly less white, squeezed by Late capitalism, tolerant of and more and more likely to be LGBT, and weary of law enforcement.

It’s only because of voter suppression that Carville’s advice to appeal to conservatives makes any sense. If we get a VRA, then Democrats won’t have to give any though towards appealing to the reactionary 40% who want to kill the other 60%.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Imagine having your Presidential Candidate say he actually wants to increase police funding

Imagine have every single one of our Senate candidates vehemently deny they are for defunding the police

Imagine nearly all of your House candidates say they are not for it

Yet folk like Carville wanna act like the Dems simply won't listen to common sense advice.

Let us be honest here, people like Carville and folk that agree with him want the Dems to start actively ****ting on part of their base that like this language. Because they don't like these folk.

Until they do that, the Carvilles of the world will yell this ****, then recalibrate their takes over and over when someone points something important out.

Rinse and Repeat

 

[osh kosh bosh]

A majority of Americans, agree, on an increasing number of issues, with the “faculty lounge.”

Do they?
Idiot president, massive calamity,
and you get crushed in the RGV, getting vaporized in rural areas, getting killed in florida. win a tight election and squeeze out a majority in the senate.

Seems to me like a serious problem.

The median voter is increasingly less white, squeezed by Late capitalism, tolerant of and more and more likely to be LGBT, and weary of law enforcement.

well in the meantime before that process is complete you gotta still win elections.

It’s only because of voter suppression that Carville’s advice to appeal to conservatives makes any sense. If we get a VRA, then Democrats won’t have to give any though towards appealing to the reactionary 40% who want to kill the other 60%.

so you think in the current environment his advice is correct?

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

Imagine having your Presidential Candidate say he actually wants to increase police funding

Imagine have every single one of our Senate candidates vehemently deny they are for defunding the police

Imagine nearly all of your House candidates say they are not for it

Yet folk like Carville wanna act like the Dems simply won't listen to common sense advice.

Let us be honest here, people like Carville and folk that agree with him want the Dems to start actively ****ting on part of their base that like this language. Because they don't like these folk.

Until they do that, the Carvilles of the world will yell this ****, then recalibrate their takes over and over when someone points something important out.

Rinse and Repeat

I mean you knew some BS was in there.. but I agree with that part about dems needing more of backbone with some of this stuff

 

[osh kosh bosh]

im sitting here months away from getting a vaccine due to mismanagement by a Conservative party.

a conservative party that managed to create a coalition of white suburbanites and recent immigrants.

they
-****** up covid response.
- canceled $15 minimum wage
- refuse to do paid sick leave despite federal support.


and is poised for re election,

because culturally distant urban elite left wing parties can't get their act together.

Im the ghost of christmas future.
for your sake let's hope the republicans are too racist to ever make it happen.

thank god for Joe Biden.

 

[rexanglorum]

- nobody reads or cares about the party platform.
- You don't need to explicitly support something for it negatively impact your brand.

democrats have to do a better job of creating separation between themselves and a vocal minority of activists that promote unpopular ideas.

Whenever someone, who is already hostile to your beliefs and your community and maybe your very existence, says they’ll change their mind if you would just denounce someone else who is in your broader community, don’t believe them. Anyone, who expects you to apologize on behalf of your community or coalition be it Jewish, Muslim, Communist, LGBT, Black, Immigrant, Latino, whatever, is hostile and dealing in bad faith won’t be won over to your side.

I do understand what you’re saying about left/progressive/liberal politics becoming an affect among PMC/grad school whites but is there evidence that that pushed voters into the arms of white nationalism and the GOP?

Also, no Democrat can ever be pro law enforcement enough for conservatives. Republicans always will out do their Democratic opponents when it comes to praising and defending law enforcement. People who think that George Floyd deserved to die don’t care if the Democrat running in their district poses with cops and says that cops have a though job. Conservatives want blood, conservatives, in America, see themselves as holding out against brown hordes and white race traitors. There’s no persuading these people, only beating them and beating them would be easy if we had some semblance of popular sovereignty.

 

[marikomorose]

Speaking of conservatives, law enforcement should be banned from sporting the Punisher logo while on duty, and should completely banned from attaching it to their line of work.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Also, no Democrat can ever be pro law enforcement enough for conservatives. Republicans always will out do their Democratic opponents when it comes to praising and defending law enforcement. People who think that George Floyd deserved to die don’t care if the Democrat running in their district poses with cops and says that cops have a though job. Conservatives want blood, conservatives, in America, see themselves as holding out against brown hordes and white race traitors. There’s no persuading these people, only beating them and beating them would be easy if we had some semblance of popular sovereignty.

This I think is the fundamental disagreement.
I think you can get these people on the margins., it's not impossible,
but I feel like people are resigning themselves to getting obliterated in rural areas for example.

Whenever someone, who is already hostile to your beliefs and your community and maybe your very existence, says they’ll change their mind if you would just denounce someone else who is in your broader community, don’t believe them. Anyone, who expects you to apologize on behalf of your community or coalition be it Jewish, Muslim, Communist, LGBT, Black, Immigrant, Latino, whatever, is hostile and dealing in bad faith won’t be won over to your side.

would you describe joe machin or jon tester as hostile to the very existence various members of the democratic party coalition?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Speaking of conservatives, law enforcement should be banned from sporting the Punisher logo while on duty, and should completely banned from attaching it to their line of work.

I said years and years ago when there were rumors of them making that tv show
The punisher is the most problematic marvel comics character that hadn't been canceled yet.


I remember jon bernthal the actor saying in an interview before the series came out that

the punisher was "a very important character to law enforcement"
I nearly vomited.

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

James Carville loves to say that his opinions on political strategy are unimpeachable because his “moderate” policies and messaging “won.” Putting aside the damage, to ordinary people, caused by Clinton’s center-right neoliberal presidency; and putting aside the fact that Bill Clinton was helped a great deal by the strongest third party candidacy in decades, we have more elections to look at aside from the 1992 and 1996 presidential election.

Democrats have done well in some elections and done terribly in others while using the James Carville method of being very conciliatory towards the military industrial complex, Wallstreet, and most of all, law enforcement.

2020 had been the only election since “defund” has been in the discourse. While no Democrat running for Federal office had made defund a part of their platform, it is true that some Democrats deviated from the unconditionally-kissing-the-asses-of-law-enforcement strategy, prescribed by the likes of James Carville. And what happened in 2020? They won, which according to Carville, ought to be the guide for campaign messaging.

You give Carville too much credit. He’s a campaign guy, not a policy guy. Clinton is notoriously a wonk. Carville’s job was to distill that broad platform into a small set of digestible themes (“it’s the economy, stupid”)

I’ll need to see evidence of “kiss the *** of law enforcement” as a either a Carville authored policy (he didn’t write policy) or talking point / campaign position.

Also, you may want to revisit what Carville was actually saying last year, because a lot of his viewpoint on that election lines up very will with an explanation for why Biden overtook Sanders.

 

[RustyShackleford]

James Carville is a lot like David Frum, people generally forget the ****** up **** they were involved in back in the day, and they remain generally in good standing with liberals because of it.

Frum with helping with a propaganda campaign to send us to a BS war, and pissing away America's surplus

Carville with aiding Clinton in throwing every black person and Mexican immigrant he could find under the bus

 

[RustyShackleford]

For Disney's sake, I hope they got a black person working in the right department to warn the execs that a new Punisher show is a PR nightmare waiting to happen.

In 2021, I just don't think the white PTSD having superhero, who has an infinity for indiscriminate gun violence, and whose symbol is associated to the worse aspects of policing, is the kinda **** you want to be attached too

Book that man on the same flight to Bolivia you put Pepe Weinstein on. He'll probably highjack the plane

Cities really need to ban Police departments flying that thin blue line flag. **** is becoming the American version of the ISIS flag

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

It’s only because of voter suppression that Carville’s advice to appeal to conservatives makes any sense. If we get a VRA, then Democrats won’t have to give any though towards appealing to the reactionary 40% who want to kill the other 60%.

If we got the full 60% that wasn’t the 40% the. The VRA wouldn’t matter either. I think you’re deliberately misrepresenting who he wants to target.

 

[yobyellav]

SHE FEARED FOR HER LIFE.

That or needed more funding....

 

[rexanglorum]

This I think is the fundamental disagreement.
I think you can get these people on the margins., it's not impossible,
but I feel like people are resigning themselves to getting obliterated in rural areas for example.



would you describe joe machin or jon tester as hostile to the very existence various members of the democratic party coalition?

Sure, I’ve been a big proponent that Democrats could, without flattering or appealing to white supremacy, flip a vote voters and active some voters in exurban and rural areas. But how do you do it, you build and subsidize universal broadband, you create green jobs, you invest in infrastructure, you expand the community college system and build more satellite campuses, you use the state and its boundless resources to offer poor and working class people in rural areas alternatives to what they have now. James Carville and his brand of politics does not offer that and is hostile to that. His brand of politics is about appealing to society’s winners and accommodating their bigotry.

As far as Machin goes, I think if you want groups of people stuck in $7.25/he jobs, with no political power and no meaningful recourse against law enforcement, and you want some of them to not be able to use a public bathroom, I’d say yeah, that’s pretty damn hostile.

 

[RustyShackleford]

It is not hard to conclude that Manchin is hostile to nonwhite people

Given his history, given his rhetoric, and where he is from

He is from West Virginia after all.

I meanwhile Bill Clinton was condemning black people to prison and poverty, Manchin and Bryd were complaining about the Democratic Party becoming too PC.

 

[RustyShackleford]

im sitting here months away from getting a vaccine due to mismanagement by a Conservative party.

a conservative party that managed to create a coalition of white suburbanites and recent immigrants.

they
-****ed up covid response.
- canceled $15 minimum wage
- refuse to do paid sick leave despite federal support.


and is poised for re election,

because culturally distant urban elite left wing parties can't get their act together.

Im the ghost of christmas future.
for your sake let's hope the republicans are too racist to ever make it happen.

thank god for Joe Biden.

Can I ask a question about Candian politics

But in the last Ontario general election, didn't most voters vote for a left-wing party? But because it was a two-party system, the conservatives won the popular vote and got control of the government.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Sure, I’ve been a big proponent that Democrats could, without flattering or appealing to white supremacy, flip a vote voters and active some voters in exurban and rural areas. But how do you do it, you build and subsidize universal broadband, you create green jobs, you invest in infrastructure, you expand the community college system and build more satellite campuses, you use the state and its boundless resources to offer poor and working class people in rural areas alternatives to what they have now. James Carville and his brand of politics does not offer that and is hostile to that. His brand of politics is about appealing to society’s winners and accommodating their bigotry.

I think signaling distance from the excesses of your activist isn't flattering white supremacy.
but let's say I accept that it is.



Barack Obama opposed marriage equality in 2008, because it was politically dicer issue back then magically evolved on the issue later on.

Don't you LGBT americans were better or worse off Obama as president, even though he had to "flatter" white anti lgbt attitudes?



Obama said some very cornball ****, about pulling up your pants, or black people acting white, that morehouse college speech.
all of which could fall under the category of catering to white supremacy


Were black americans materially better off with Barack Obama winning in 08 and 12?


at what point is this just politics?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Can I ask a question about Candian politics

But in the last Ontario general election, didn't most voters vote for a left-wing party? But because it was a two-party system, the conservatives won the popular vote and got control of the government.

yah the left wing parties split the vote, and the conservatives won.


that's basically always the deal.
You have the center left liberal party that is the natural ruling party of Canada/ontario

and when the liberal party is weak they split the vote with the far left NDP.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Obama said if he ran today he wouldn't run back his 2008 campaign

He didn't even run it back in 2012

Also, Barrack Obama was interested in making people's lives better, listen to the progressives in his cabinet on certain issues (granted not all), and was willing to lose in 2012 to pass the ACA

But the Democratic President before that catered to white supremacy, and he followed through with his promises. If the internet boom doesn't juice the economy and got that wage growth, how were black Americans made materially better than Clinton that overrides the Crime Bill and Welfare Reform? Bill cut his losses with healthcare because he felt it was too big a cluster**** to deal with.

If the Democratic Party roll back the clock to attach regressive white people, what is the firewall from it regressing in important places, because Democratic centrist has not been some secret economic populist either.

 

[RustyShackleford]

yah the left wing parties split the vote, and the conservatives won.


that's basically always the deal.
You have the center left liberal party that is the natural ruling party of Canada/ontario

and when the liberal party is weak they split the vote with the far left NDP.

Well then I think if you are talking about how the Liberals have lost touch and the conservatives have a winning coalition now, that might be an important point to include.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Obama said if he ran today he wouldn't run back his 2008 campaign

he didn't even run it back in 2012

Also, Barrack Obama was interested in making people's lives better, listen to the progressives in his cabinet on certain issues, and was willing to lose in 2012 to pass the ACA

But the Democratic President before that catered to white supremacy, and he followed through with his promises. If the interest boom doesn't juice the economy and got that wage growth, how were black Americans made materially better than Clinton. Bill cut his losses with healthcare because he felt it was too big a cluster**** to deal with.

If the Democratic Party roll back the clock, what is the firewall from it regressing in important places. Because Democratic centrist has not been some secret economic populist either.

If a young Barack Obama lived in say ohio or North carolina and had to run for senate I bet he would run is 08 campaign.


both parties have moved significantly to the left on economics.

 

[RustyShackleford]

If a young Barack Obama lived in say ohio or North carolina and had to run for senate I bet he would run is 08 campaign.


both parties have moved significantly to the left on economics.

I say this as a professional economist, please stop repeating this nonsense.

The GOP has not.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Well then I think if you are talking about how the Liberals have lost touch and the conservatives have a winning coalition now, that might be an important point to include.

I mean okay, it's a center left country.

his crack smoking brother, became mayor of toronto and didn't have a significant third party splitting the vote.



my point is conservative populist can build multi racial support.
and they have far less obstacles to success in american than in canada.