***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[Brownstone]

Joe Manchin is bad for West Virginia's residents

Their fault for living in WV honestly, and voting for the guy

 

[RustyShackleford]

well im sure the republican that takes Machins place in 2024 will do a better job.

Oh look

Mr. I only care about material improvements for people is deflecting when people complain about someone sabotaging a bill that will deliver material benefits for millions of people

 

[IATT]

 

[Brownstone]

This isn’t as good of an argument as you think it is.

• Why don’t people living in coastal cities deserve protection?
• Do you really think 60k is good money in Chicago? Houston? Denver?
• I challenge you to put together a budget for 2 working parent family with 2 children living in San Antonio that covers: child care, diapers, two cars, retirement saving, college savings. 60k after taxes is at most 52k… so get it done for under $1000 per week.

1. I do not think in 2021 the US should be offering economic stimulus just because you have kids
2. If they are going to do this, there should be a cap, someone making what I make should not be getting additional money because they decided to have kids and I didn't. I am already footing the bill in ways I don't mind. Direct payments I do.
3. If 60K isn't a good cap what is? Nobody wants to answer this, because there ISN'T one, so in essence 60K is as good or as bad as any
4.No 60K isn't good money in those cities for household but for an individual it is, but you know this, and these are elite cities (coastal is not a literal term) It's also not the federal governments job to decide what is GOOD money
5.I don't care about San Antonio because it resides in Texas, its not apart of the United States

 

[IATT]

 

[wavycrocket]

someone find osh kosh bosh uncle

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Oh look

Mr. I only care about material improvements for people is deflecting when people complain about someone sabotaging a bill that will deliver material benefits for millions of people

complain if you want, it's a free country.

 

[noskey]

well im sure the republican that takes Machins place in 2024 will do a better job.

Joe's doing a damb fine job sabotaging the democrats on his own. Dont think any GOP replacement could do much more.

 

[rexanglorum]

In 2016, Bernie Sanders got more votes, in the West Virginia Democratic Primary, than Joe Manchin got in the 2018 midterm. So maybe West Virginians aren’t as opposed to social spending as Manchin claims.

That said, Trump carried West Virginia by a huge margin so here’s how Manchin could vote for the BBB and pander to the cultural conservatism in his State.

He could say how much he, like President Trump, loves the Polish and Hungarian model of conservatism. He could say that he’s a capitalist who loves free markets but that the state should make it easier for families and it should encourage young people to start families. Moreover, he should acknowledge that as much as he positively loves beautiful, clean coal, coal mining is simply not the jobs engine it once was and West Virginia needs to diversify its economy. Currently, too many young people leave West Virginia in search of better economic prospects. Therefore, West Virginia needs federal help young families so that “mee mas and pap paps can see their grandkids grow up right here in West Virginia instead of them growing up in faraway New York City or San Francisco.”

There’s ways of doing rural idpol and getting good things done legislatively. The problem is that Manchin, like every Republican Senator, is a neoliberal who uses white idpol to get over.

 

[RustyShackleford]

1. I do not think in 2021 the US should be offering economic stimulus just because you have kids
2. If they are going to do this, there should be a cap, someone making what I make should not be getting additional money because they decided to have kids and I didn't. I am already footing the bill in ways I don't mind. Direct payments I do.
3. If 60K isn't a good cap what is? Nobody wants to answer this, because there ISN'T one, so in essence 60K is as good or as bad as any
4.No 60K isn't good money in those cities, but you know this, and these are elite cities (coastal is not a literal term) Make this a state driven initiative that is tied to state funding. Your state doesn't want it great! Vote yes anyway and this won't come out of your allocated state budget and you'll have more to spend on whatever it is those states nobody wants to go to pays for?
5.I don't care about San Antonio because it resides in Texas, its not apart of the United States

1. It is not a traditional Keynesian economic stimulus because the Dems want to offset it with taxes. This is progressive tax reform at its core, and with such a policy and its design, yes, they naturally are other benefits.

2. There is a cap, I posted it last night in a response to you. The reduction in poverty as economic and social benefits that will not only benefit society generally, but you're as a taxpayer. Reducing child poverty will have tons of positive downstream effects. And I hope you claim no deduction on your taxes if you are gonna use this "I'm footing the bill logic"

3. I answered your question. 60K is not a good cap because it excludes too many people, it is below the median for families, and since this will also have a benefit reduction rate in it, by setting it too low then you make lower-income people near the cut off face a very high tax if they chose to earn slightly over the cut off amounts. This disincentives work., and with the participation rate decreasing, this is not something we should be doing. When you put the benefit reduction cutoff higher, the incentive not to work becomes less and less.. This is Welfare Economics 101

4. This is a bad idea, like very bad. This will make the program worse and ensure black people disproportionately don't benefit from the program. Republican state governments will add administrative burdens, on top of administrative burdens, to prevent people from getting help

If the state has the option to opt-out, like with the Medicaid expansion, then the people being disproportionately hurt is gonna be black folk

Your proposal turns a program that will disproportionately help black people into one that disproportionately excludes them,

5. I have no idea what your even saying here

Yeah, your grievances and plan seem wild out of touch with the realities of anti-poverty economics and what is effective public policy

 

[RustyShackleford]

complain if you want, it's a free country.

Will I

Myself, my family, and my friends gotta live in this country

 

[Brownstone]

2. There is a cap, I posted it last night in a response to you. The reduction in poverty as economic and social benefits that will not only benefit society but you're as a taxpayer. I hope you claim no deduction on your taxes if you are gonna use this "I'm footing the bill logic"

3. I answered your question. 60K is not a good cap because it excludes too many people, and since this will also have a benefit reduction rate in it, by setting it too low then you make lower-income people near the cut off face a very high implicit tax if they chose to earn over a certain amount. These disincentives work. When you put the benefit reduction cutoff higher, the incentive not to work becomes less and less.. This is Welfare Economics 101

4. This is a bad idea, like very bad. This will make the program worse and ensure black people disproportionately don't benefit from the program. Republican state governments will add administrative burdens, on top of administrative burdens, to prevent people from getting help

If the state has the option to opt-out, like with the Medicaid expansion, then the people being disproportionately hurt is gonna be black folk

Your proposal turns a program that will disproportionately help black people into one that disproportionately excludes them,

5. I have no idea what your even saying here

Yeah, your grievances and plan seem wild out of touch with the realities of anti-poverty economics and public policy

2. LOL, I have heard that before

3. So the current cap of 150k is a good one? why?

4. I agree, hence why I edited my post. Alabama having more power isn't necessarily a good thing I agree

5. It's a joke Rusty, just because you don't think it's funny doesn't make it less so. Texas sucks is all

 

[RustyShackleford]

2. LOL, I have heard that before

3. So the current cap of 150k is a good one? why?

4. I agree, hence why I edited my post. Alabama having more power isn't necessarily a good thing I agree

5. It's a joke Rusty, just because you don't think it's funny doesn't make it less so. Texas sucks is all

2. Ok you heard it before. It is true though. This is why conservative economists are more open to spending on kids as opposed to adults. Because early in life spending usually pays for itself through those kids being more productive members of society as adults

Here is Grey Mankiw, one of Bush's economist advisors, and critic of liberal/progressive economic plans writing his take on Biden's plan...

Opinion | Can America Afford to Become a Major Social Welfare State? (Published 2021)

Biden’s $3.5 trillion spending plan raises larger questions about the kind of nation we want to be.

www.nytimes.com

That is not to say that the United States has already struck the right balance between compassion and prosperity. It is a continuing tragedy that children are more likely to live in poverty than the overall population. That’s why my favorite provision in the Biden plan is the expanded child credit, which would reduce childhood poverty. (I am also sympathetic to policies aimed at climate change, which is an entirely different problem. Sadly, the Biden plan misses the opportunity to embrace the best solution — a carbon tax.)

3. I just explained it to you. It includes more households, and it makes sure the tax the benefit reduction rate the program will have doesn't fall on households on lower end of the income ladder. That way, it doesn't have the incentive for people not to work more.

4. Ok

5. It not that I didn't find it funny. I was legit confused by the wording. Especially since I didn't know if "apart" was a small typo and you meant " a part".

"Not apart" means nearly the opposite of "not a part"

 

[RustyShackleford]

Joe's doing a damb fine job sabotaging the democrats on his own. Dont think any GOP replacement could do much more.

Famb, Osh just wants a deal to be cut so he can come in here and condescendingly tell people they should he thankful Manchin allowed them to have anything

 

[gry60]

Marjorie Taylor Greene tweets panicked message to supporters following poll of GOP voters

After months of pushing Trump's election conspiracy, Greene is now facing the unintended consequences

www.salon.com

"I recently conducted a poll on Georgia's elections and if my constituents felt their votes would count during a teletown hall," she tweeted on Monday. "Sadly, 4% said they won't even vote due to voter fraud. This is WRONG. Legal votes by Rs are just as important as stopping illegal ones."

Greene, who is up for re-election in 2022, has extensively supported Trump's efforts to overturn the election. Back in September, she declared – without evidence – that the former president "won Georgia," later calling for an official audit. In May, Greene also threw her support behind the GOP-backed election recount of Maricopa County, Arizona, which just weeks ago found that President Biden beat Trump by a wider margin than originally reported.

In a series of tweets, Greene also noted that Republican Gov. Brian Kemp would have lost the gubernatorial election against progressive voting rights activist Stacey Abrams if just 4% of the Georgia GOP electorate opted out of voting.

You think she knows the story of the boy who cried wolf?

 

[zekethephysique]

Classy

Not a Colin Powell supporter or anything, but...

The fact that pro-Military Americans that support Trump will be referring to Powell as a traitor now blows my mind, Powell's career now means nothing to his followers.

The logic of his followers is scary.

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

712K views · 75K likes | NowThis on Instagram: "Why is taking time from your job to care for your newborn such an issue? #parentalleave #paternityleave #parenting #bidenadmin #petebuttigieg"

76K likes, 2,161 comments - nowthisOctober 19, 2021 on : "Why is taking time from your job to care for your newborn such an issue? #parentalleave #paternityleave #parenting #bidenadmin #petebutt..."

www.instagram.com

 

[rexanglorum]

Presented without comment

 

[rexanglorum]

She was too lazy to make a video announcing this. Seriously, it can’t be that hard to get a 15’ by 20’ sheet of canvas and paint some dessert vistas and some Saguaro Cacti and then mount that canvas between between two trees along side the Champs-Élyésees.



I dunno maybe she was worried that mimes would wonder into the shot.

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

1. I do not think in 2021 the US should be offering economic stimulus just because you have kids

1.a Then it certainly seems like your objection to the specific limit wasn’t made in good faith.
1.b They aren’t. They’re offering a certain amount of guaranteed income to citizens who are not able to work. The aid is for children, not parents.
1.c I have a kid. who has received no benefit from any of these programs. if I did get a benefit, it would likely be somewhat circular from my taxes. Thats all fine.

2. If they are going to do this, there should be a cap, someone making what I make should not be getting additional money because they decided to have kids and I didn't. I am already footing the bill in ways I don't mind. Direct payments I do.

2..a See 1.b. The credit is meant to be income for children who made the exact same set of choices you did coming into this world, in this country.
2.b So you object to the mortgage deduction? The state income tax deduction? The property tax deduction? These are all far more expensive programs. If you’re truly worried about redistribution, you might start there instead of things that help people that haven’t made a choice.

3. If 60K isn't a good cap what is? Nobody wants to answer this, because there ISN'T one, so in essence 60K is as good or as bad as any

3. I’d support a sliding scale phased on the child’s income. So any child with taxable income in excess of the annual credit would be ineligible. I think that‘s both reasonable and consistent with the goals of the program.

4.No 60K isn't good money in those cities for household but for an individual it is, but you know this, and these are elite cities (coastal is not a literal term) It's also not the federal governments job to decide what is GOOD money

4.a I assure you, no one in Dallas thinks of themselves as a coastal elite. But fine, let’s use your incredibly non-standard definition
4.b Your point seemed to be that the Manchin-proposed limit was reasonable because outside of “coastal elite cities” 60k was good money. You framed the conversation that way, not me.
4.c But if we’re going to throw in all majot Mets as “coast elites” then your special case is more than half of the population. Seems like a reasonable proportion to govern to.
4.d I’m not sure exactly what the federal government’s job is, but it seems like if it wants to “promote the general Welfare“, then it should have some sense of what a good income looks like,

bonus. It’s funny how libertarians ignore that that promoting the general welfare comes before “secure the Blessings of Liberty”

5.I don't care about San Antonio because it resides in Texas, its not apart of the United States

I picked SAT because it’s one of the most affordable US cities. But lulz, I guess.

 

[IATT]

 

[-Red-]

I get what you're saying but I seem to recall income caps for stimulus less than two years ago....

For sure. I’m just saying they need to move away from that approach, and they seem to be doing that somewhat.

 

[kdawg]

I saw this and it’s just baffling.

The flags are incredible.

I particularly like the flags and t-shirts that use the American flag in place of the U in F***. I’m sure these would be the first people to rant about the flag code too so I just don’t get it.

There’s one that was always blurred out - at first I wondered what could be so offensive - a swastika? - but it’s probably just unedited profanity on that one I suppose.

 

[gry60]

The credit is meant to be income for children who made the exact same set of choices you did coming into this world, in this country.

This.

And this money is not a reward for choosing (or not choosing) to become a parent. It is an investment in the future of this country, and its impact is more immediate and widespread than creating and passing legislation to cap the cost of daycare or to build more schools/libraries.

Even if you want to entertain a cap, you can't do so without taking into account the costs of early education, and 60k is ridiculous regardless of where you live in the US.