***Official Political Discussion Thread***

RustyShackleford said:
-People made comments regarding what the Dems should do right now, I don't know how I am too focused on the present? I am addressing the argument on the grounds other people established.

-So if you are talking about the past you are upset that the Dems didn't follow the GOP playbook of norm-breaking, forcing constant gridlock? Cruz and Hawley were complicit in election subversion, and they failed at their mission. I don't see how that is a model for the Dems to follow.

The Dems can't use the power they don't have. Mitch doesn't need 60 votes to get the main things he wants, which are tax cuts, destroying the ACA (McCain ****ed him there), and federal judges. The Dems need 60 votes to pass most of their agenda. There is an asymmetry there people ignore.

When the Dems could block Bush's judge's, they did for a long period. When Mitch returned the favor, the Dems reformed the filibuster.

Harry Reid did **** like this to try to hurt a presidential candidate...

I really don't see a cogent argument here beyond listing something ****ed up the GOP did, complaining about the Dems not stopping without spelling out how they could, and some hypothetical about how the Dems wouldn't norm break in the same situation if the roles were reversed

-Gerrymandering happens every 10 years, in the year after the census. The GOP won a massive election right before restricting had to happen in 2011. The Dems got swept out of power so they didn't have the power to fight back the GOP's gerrymander with ones of their own. They sued constantly and used ballot measures to claw back some of the loss. They went all the way to the Supreme Court, but Kennedy didn't buy their argument.

While preferring gerrymandering gone completely. In this cycle, the Dems gerrymandered Oregon (1 district gain since they gain a district), Illinois (two district gain since it already was), New Jersey (two districts), Maryland (zero redistrict gain since already was), and plan on gerrymandering New York (4 district gain). All in an attempt to rebalance the national map. Party leadership in Maryland wanted to take another district but a couple of people chicken out at the last second. Virginia, the setup commission to undo the GOP gerrymander because again, a few people in the party went against the party leadership and didn't want to gerrymander. That would have made no difference now since Virginia is now under split control. The blue state with the most House seats in it is Cali, but they can't gerrymander in Cali. They have an independent commission

If you follow the gerrymandering situation, the Dems didn't just roll over and take it. This area doesn't provide a data point for your argument

Sorry, but if I give your argument thorough expectations, it doesn't make sense to me. I have my criticism of how the Dems dropped the ball, but they are more narrow and focused than what seems to amount to "they didn't try hard enough”
Click to expand...
These 3 bolded statements are the problem.

First, it’s the fact that you even call it norm breaking. It isn’t. This is what they’ve been doing, what they continue to do, and what they’ve openly announced they will continue to do in the future. It’s generally people that are still stuck in the “old” ways of politics (ie most of the dem leadership) that are still surprised by their behavior which is why it’s so effective. This is why you get old timers like Biden and Schumer (who are unfortunately are the most powerful dems) always talking about how they miss the old days where they would disagree with the GOP but at least they could talk it out like adults.

The second important point is that you dismiss Cruz and Hawley as a failed attempt. It wasn’t. They knew they didn’t have the numbers for it, they’re not idiots. What they did do is take more time to put it in the floor, disrupt the work of the next admin even if only a little, and make their antics a talking point for a long time which is a distraction that the dems constantly have to take time to address. Rinse and repeat is the name of the game. A great example of this is the recent appointment of the office of the Comptroller. This is a gimme confirmation that doesn't even make the news normally. It should be done and over with and on to the next without a second thought. But you get Rubio to call her a communist and it drags out into a multi-day debate and then the admin and whoever else are stuck preparing for and dealing with the issue of Biden supposedly wanting to appoint a communist instead of working on their agenda and getting a focused message out to the people.

The third is really the crux of the issue and where you and most dems have completely whiffed to be honest. Your entire focus is on what the dems can positively do with the power they have. This is backed up by your response on gerrymandering, Obama and Mitch, etc. What can we enact? What can we pass? What do we not have the numbers for?

What the GOP has figured out is that even if they dont have the numbers to move their agenda forward, bogging down the other side with so much BS and nonsense that prevents them from getting to their agenda is a huge W. Unfortunately, the GOP has gone with outrage politics as their tool to do this. I'm not saying thats the way to go for the dems, especially because the GOP is particularly adept at playing the victim, but the idea is the same: Even if you dont have the numbers, making it difficult for the other side to do their work and even if you can prevent them from getting to a fraction of their agenda, its still a net positive.

The GOP does a similar thing by screwing things up so badly that it takes a huge amount of time and resources to undo. This is what I was referring to with the gerrymandering. Of course both sides will do it when they have the power but if you look at the most extreme examples of gerrymandering, they are almost exclusively the work of the GOP. Same idea with DeJoy's USPS and DeVos's department of education.

This is what we mean when we say play dirty.

You can call it coping or performative or possibly even unethical but when its the future of our country at stake, I dont really care cause it works.
 
Dems need a functional government to push their agenda. the GOP are far more hedged since a complete strangling of Congress plays to their messaging that government is the enemy. So they still win even if they stalemate Congress while the Dems fall behind in the same position, as we’re seeing now. You’d be hard pressed to name a non-tax reduction legislative victory for Republicans. They famously have no platform. It’s just not symmetric enough to reward a mirror strategy.
 
nonnative said:
These 3 bolded statements are the problem.

First, it’s the fact that you even call it norm breaking. It isn’t. This is what they’ve been doing, what they continue to do, and what they’ve openly announced they will continue to do in the future. It’s generally people that are still stuck in the “old” ways of politics (ie most of the dem leadership) that are still surprised by their behavior which is why it’s so effective. This is why you get old timers like Biden and Schumer (who are unfortunately are the most powerful dems) always talking about how they miss the old days where they would disagree with the GOP but at least they could talk it out like adults.

The second important point is that you dismiss Cruz and Hawley as a failed attempt. It wasn’t. They knew they didn’t have the numbers for it, they’re not idiots. What they did do is take more time to put it in the floor, disrupt the work of the next admin even if only a little, and make their antics a talking point for a long time which is a distraction that the dems constantly have to take time to address. Rinse and repeat is the name of the game. A great example of this is the recent appointment of the office of the Comptroller. This is a gimme confirmation that doesn't even make the news normally. It should be done and over with and on to the next without a second thought. But you get Rubio to call her a communist and it drags out into a multi-day debate and then the admin and whoever else are stuck preparing for and dealing with the issue of Biden supposedly wanting to appoint a communist instead of working on their agenda and getting a focused message out to the people.

The third is really the crux of the issue and where you and most dems have completely whiffed to be honest. Your entire focus is on what the dems can positively do with the power they have. This is backed up by your response on gerrymandering, Obama and Mitch, etc. What can we enact? What can we pass? What do we not have the numbers for?

What the GOP has figured out is that even if they dont have the numbers to move their agenda forward, bogging down the other side with so much BS and nonsense that prevents them from getting to their agenda is a huge W. Unfortunately, the GOP has gone with outrage politics as their tool to do this. I'm not saying thats the way to go for the dems, especially because the GOP is particularly adept at playing the victim, but the idea is the same: Even if you dont have the numbers, making it difficult for the other side to do their work and even if you can prevent them from getting to a fraction of their agenda, its still a net positive.

The GOP does a similar thing by screwing things up so badly that it takes a huge amount of time and resources to undo. This is what I was referring to with the gerrymandering. Of course both sides will do it when they have the power but if you look at the most extreme examples of gerrymandering, they are almost exclusively the work of the GOP. Same idea with DeJoy's USPS and DeVos's department of education.

This is what we mean when we say play dirty.

You can call it coping or performative or possibly even unethical but when its the future of our country at stake, I dont really care cause it works.
Click to expand...
I am going to not respond because I simply don't agree with your analyst. I think it just a bad read on things generally

I see you don't agree with me

So I see no point in continuing
 
I think a lot of people are throwing out ideas as copes

Thinking that there is a clear plan for the Dems to beat the other side. But they just refuse to go down that road

But that ignores all the other forces that are hurting the Dems. And to be honest, Mitch McConnell is not some tactical genius, his plan worked because he got lucky too.

It is not simple. It might feel good to think that it is, but the hard truth might be is that the next few decades might be really really rough unless we get lucky.

The Dems will have some wins a long the way, but not nearly enough to save us from the rough ride if current political trends hold

I have not given up hope, I'm ready to do more than ever before to help in any way, but just thinking about this a lot has just made me reach the conclusion is that we are in a ****** up situation.
 
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Jesus. These last few replies are the reason we are well and truly ******. Not just as a country but as a planet.

Not a single person is saying there is a full proof strategy for the dems to beat the GOP. Otherwise we would have done it already. And yes we are all aware that we are ******. And yes we are all aware that it is a complicated situation. Those aren’t enlightening revelations.

Is the dems slowing down the GOP agenda going to solve the whole issue? Of course not. But at this point we are so ******, that we need to try something. Literally anything to at least slow down our collapse and give ourselves more time to recover.

But according to you lot, the system is too far broken, the system is rigged against us, and theres no magic bullet that is going to save us. Therefore, it’s not worth trying anything, even very small things, because in the end, it isn’t going to fix the problem. So all we can do is ride it out and hope we get lucky.

Now replace “dems beat the GOP” with climate change, the oceans collapsing, growing income inequality and poverty, or any mass problem facing this country or planet.

Sound familiar?
 
nonnative said:
Jesus. These last few replies are the reason we are well and truly ******. Not just as a country but as a planet.

Not a single person is saying there is a full proof strategy for the dems to beat the GOP. Otherwise we would have done it already. And yes we are all aware that we are ******. And yes we are all aware that it is a complicated situation. Those aren’t enlightening revelations.

Is the dems slowing down the GOP agenda going to solve the whole issue? Of course not. But at this point we are so ******, that we need to try something. Literally anything to at least slow down our collapse and give ourselves more time to recover.

But according to you lot, the system is too far broken, the system is rigged against us, and theres no magic bullet that is going to save us. Therefore, it’s not worth trying anything, even very small things, because in the end, it isn’t going to fix the problem. So all we can do is ride it out and hope we get lucky.

Now replace “dems beat the GOP” with climate change, the oceans collapsing, growing income inequality and poverty, or any mass problem facing this country or planet.

Sound familiar?
Click to expand...

Yes, people like me are why this planet is truly ******. :lol:

The last sentence of my post is literally saying I am not giving up hope and will be trying harder

You putting words in my mouth and **** like this is why I chose not to engage further with you on this subject. And probably won't in the future

Have nice rest of your weekend
 
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It’s not that we shouldn’t try. But until some of these old conservatives in power die out, it’s no use. At some point, it will change. But maybe we’re a generation or so away. But the effort needs to be there to keep whatever progress has been made going.
 
RustyShackleford said:
I think a lot of people are throwing out ideas as copes

Thinking that there is a clear plan for the Dems to beat the other side. But they just refuse to go down that road

But that ignores all the other forces that are hurting the Dems. And to be honest, Mitch McConnell is not some tactical genius, his plan worked because he got lucky too.

It is not simple. It might feel good to think that it is, but the hard truth might be is that the next few decades might be really really rough unless we get lucky.

The Dems will have some wins a long the way, but not nearly enough to save us from the rough ride if current political trends hold

I have not given up hope, I'm ready to do more than ever before to help in any way, but just thinking about this a lot has just made me reach the conclusion is that we are in a ****ed up situation.
Click to expand...
Cliffnotes:

We're ******
 
rocketqueen said:
It’s not that we shouldn’t try. But until some of these old conservatives in power die out, it’s no use. At some point, it will change. But maybe we’re a generation or so away. But the effort needs to be there to keep whatever progress has been made going.
Click to expand...
Yeah problem is engagement drops off in times like this but if you want to replace the old folks you have to remain engaged in the lows but voter apathy ends up being part of the same cycle. Some of it is justified unfortunately

But the other problem is if the Senate majority doesn't represent the true majority of the country...and if the house majority doesn't represent the majority of the country...and then presidency election doesn't represent the majority of the country. We're just gonna be stuck in the same ****

I'll remain engaged until the end of time. Especially locally but got damn these forecast suck to read
 
A true commitment to fighting for change is fighting as hard as you can, while accepting that you might not be around to see the benefits.

Even more harder to accept, the other side might win. That is why you have to fight not matter what

Realizing your side is probably ****** currently doesn't have to mean giving up or saying things are hopeless

But if someone just was to vent about the Dems with hot takes, I will mainly see that as a cope more than anything else

Which is fine, people process things in different ways. But I think of things in systems

This should not be surprising to anyone that reads my posts in here.

I feel people oversell Congressional tactics in what brought to this place

Structural disadvantages are hurting us way more

When the Dems didn't blow out the GOP in the last election, I was said that ****** us.

I have been saying Manchin won't change and would **** us.

I hate Osh's discourse about discourse because of how he oversells its importance and impact on electoral outcomes and society.

I don't like leftist analysts because they ignore what white people are doing right in front of them.

If someone didn't notice the pessimism and intolerance for simple explanations in the face of major political and social trends, then I dunno what to tell them.

I think I have been pretty clear.

Unless Joe Biden has one of the best years in the history of an incumbent president, then the Dems are gonna take major consequential political losses in 9 and half months. At best, we still have 6 months of high inflation.

Still gonna donate tens of thousands of my money. But I am not gonna delude myself at what will probably happen.
 
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According to Schumer and Co, we should still try to find some common ground between firefighters and arsonists.

RustyShackleford said:
Realizing your side is probably ****ed currently doesn't have to mean giving up or saying things are hopeless
Click to expand...

Things wouldn't seem so hopeless if Democrats actually subpoenaed and jailed those congress members who participated in the decertification attempt.


It isn't really hard to see that such hesitation to do what needs to be done is motivated by the need to minimize the possibility that Democrats be subjected to Benghazi-style hearings when they lose control of the senate/house.

The apparent lack of urgency is very disappointing and alarming. Republicans wanted to kill their own VP to secure power, and Democrats want to manage their feelings. :smh:
 
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