***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[RIP sleazyy]

dog...the hell is going on out here...

Why Is Donald Trump Enabling Russian Espionage in America?

The diplomats, widely assumed to be intelligence operatives, would eventually turn up in odd places, often in middle-of-nowhere USA. One was found on a beach, nowhere near where he was supposed to be. In one particularly bizarre case, relayed by a U.S. intelligence official, another turned up wandering around in the middle of the desert. Interestingly, both seemed to be lingering where underground fiber-optic cables tend to run.

Interesting, indeed. Counterintelligence officials in Washington have confirmed to me that Russian operatives are engaged in systematically mapping America’s telecommunications infrastructure, with an intent to tap into fiber-optic cables. Some counterspies believe the Russians have already done so in several parts of the country.

American diplomats in Putin’s Russia are experiencing in-your-face surveillance and harassment worse than what the KGB practiced during the Cold War. Blatant intimidation of our diplomats in Russia has become routine, while a year ago one of our personnel (in reality, a CIA officer serving under cover), was beaten to a pulp by a Russian security guard at the gates of our embassy in Moscow. The victim was injured so severely he required medical evacuation from Russia. True to form, the Kremlin gloated about this incident, posting a video of the beating online

http://observer.com/2017/06/donald-trump-russian-espionage/

Babylon falling blud

 

[whywesteppin]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...df96de-5850-11e7-ba90-f5875b7d1876_story.html

The framed copy of Time Magazine was hung up in at least five of President Trump’s clubs, from South Florida to Scotland. Filling the entire cover was a photo of Donald Trump.

“Donald Trump: The ‘Apprentice’ is a television smash!” the big headline said. Above the Time nameplate, there was another headline in all caps: “TRUMP IS HITTING ON ALL FRONTS . . . EVEN TV!”

This cover — dated March 1, 2009 — looks like an impressive memento from Trump’s pre-presidential career. To club members eating lunch, or golfers waiting for a pro-shop purchase, it seemed to be a signal that Trump had always been a man who mattered. Even when he was just a reality-TV star, Trump was the kind of star who got a cover story in Time.

But that wasn’t true.

The Time cover is a fake.

There was no March 1, 2009, issue of Time Magazine. And there was no issue at all in 2009 that had Trump on the cover.

 

[Coromanti]

These Republicans and their health plan are hot basura. At least my boys Rand Paul and Justin Amash didn't vote for this garbage.

 

[Rootin4EverybodyBlack]

Maybe they thought Obamacare was only for da minorities and the ACA was for da whites?

In all seriousness, I'm sure there are plenty of people that actually think this.

 

[kdawg]

I don't understand, don said specifically he wanted to get rid of obamacare, why are people upset? They are gonna get what they voted for.

They purposely voted to potentially kill themselves and their families.

I only feel bad for the children, that their parents are morons.

Also of note, many of them had no idea "Obamacare" was actually the Affordable Care Act. True story.

These Republicans and their health plan are hot basura. At least my boys Rand Paul and Justin Amash didn't vote for this garbage.

Both true. Didn't one of the late night talk shows do a segment like that - sent someone out with a camera asking about Obamacare and then the same questions about the ACA and got basically opposite answers.

The polarity is pretty frightening - like those people who voted Republican because they always have. Just stupid.

 

[Coromanti]

 

 

 

I don't understand, don said specifically he wanted to get rid of obamacare, why are people upset? They are gonna get what they voted for.

They purposely voted to potentially kill themselves and their families.

I only feel bad for the children, that their parents are morons.

Also of note, many of them had no idea "Obamacare" was actually the Affordable Care Act. True story.

 

These Republicans and their health plan are hot basura. At least my boys Rand Paul and Justin Amash didn't vote for this garbage.

Both true. Didn't one of the late night talk shows do a segment like that - sent someone out with a camera asking about Obamacare and then the same questions about the ACA and got basically opposite answers.

The polarity is pretty frightening - like those people who voted Republican because they always have. Just stupid.

Yea.

I think it was on Conan. That video was shocking. It opened my eyes to how powerful and effective the right-wing propaganda machine is. They convinced millions of people that Obamacare and the ACA were two different things. They completely omitted the fact that the ACA was based on Romneycare in Masachussetts. Roger Ailes, say what you will about his politics, knew how to run a machine. I've heard his effectiveness compared to Josef Goebbels (Nazi propaganda minister). Frightening stuff really.

edit: It was on Jimmy Kimmel.

 

[RustyShackleford]

These Republicans and their health plan are hot basura. At least my boys Rand Paul and Justin Amash didn't vote for this garbage.

Rand Paul is a clown who wishes the bill was harsher

He should get no credit from anyone for his buffoonery.

Dude spews economic nonsense routinely because he can't see past his ideology

**** him

 

[Belgium]

 
Yea.

I think it was on Conan. That video was shocking. It opened my eyes to how powerful and effective the right-wing propaganda machine is. They convinced millions of people that Obamacare and the ACA were two different things. They completely omitted the fact that the ACA was based on Romneycare in Masachussetts. Roger Ailes, say what you will about his politics, knew how to run a machine. I've heard his effectiveness compared to Josef Goebbels (Nazi propaganda minister). Frightening stuff really.

edit: It was on Jimmy Kimmel.

And that was back in 2013. Pretty sure I saw recent polls (2015/2016) during the election that showed a significant amount of people (mainly republicans obviously) still didn't know the ACA and Obamacare are the same thing. And I agree that the effectiveness of this kind of propaganda is comparable to Goebbels. Back in those days they didn't have the level of education available now, they didn't have the internet, ...

The fact that this propaganda machine is so extremely effective in this day and age is very remarkable.

Personally I think the vice grip religious zealotry has on the US rightwing has a lot to do with that. Religion is a powerful indoctrination tool, and I believe the overzealous believers such as the evangelical right etc. are naturally far more prone to ignorance, manipulation, ... because their beliefs are built on exactly that and the denial of objective truth, science, common sense, ...

When 24% of the population takes the bible literally, word for word, (according to most recent Gallup poll) there is a problem. That's 1/4 of the population whose beliefs are on the same level as thinking the earth is flat and alien reptilians are taking over the planet. I think that religion by nature makes one more prone to propaganda, and religion happens to have a vice grip on America, particularly on the right.

 

[RustyShackleford]

And the ACA is not based on a Republican plan from Mass.

Romeycare was not popular with Romey himself. He vetoed parts of the bill that helps the poor.

It was Dems in Mass that did the heavy lifting. The chief architect of Romeycare and the ACA was also in charge of Vermont's single payer plan.

Regulation, marketplaces and mandates is just the most right wing on the spectrum of way you can responsibly get close to universal coverage

It still on he left of the spectrum when you look at the national parties

-And let's remember, Romney ran on killing the ACA too.

 

[Coromanti]

And the ACA is not based on a Republican plan from Mass.

Romeycare was not popular with Romey himself. He vetoed parts of the bill that helps the poor.

It was Dems in Mass that did the heavy lifting. The chief architect of Romeycare and the ACA was also in charge of Vermont's single payer plan.

Regulation, marketplaces and mandates is just the most right wing on the spectrum of way you can responsibly get close to universal coverage

It still on he left of the spectrum when you look at the national parties

-And let's remember, Romney ran on killing the ACA too.

I'm pretty sure Obamacare was in part based on Romneycare. Not a verbatim copy paste but a significant source of inspiration.

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallp...itt-romney-finally-takes-credit-for-obamacare

I wasn't praising Romney for romneycare. Just stating that the republicans often fail to acknowledge their part in the creation and influences behind the ACA.

 

[rexanglorum]

The biggest problem with many on the right is that it came from a liberal black man, so they assumed it would help too many minorities

Once the boogieman went away, they realized how much they needed it.

And that is why the country can't progress, too many people can't see that all the **** that will benefit minorities in this country, will also help them

Morons

To add to the irony, the medicaid expansion, which is the real crown jewel of Obamacare, actually helped white people more than non whites.

 

[hipstermike]

I don't understand what mentality goes into being ok with knowing your actions will directly lead to people's deaths

There really is just a total disregard for the value of some lives

 

[sonoftony]

[QUOTE url="[URL]https://t.co/ZxEEe6e31P[/URL]"]
Wow. This entire exchange at the WH briefing. Must watch. https://t.co/ZxEEe6e31P
— Bradd Jaffy (@BraddJaffy) June 27, 2017

The irony in her tirade


Fam went in at the end

[/quote]

i did not notice ole girl got a lazy eye

 

[whywesteppin]

I don't understand what mentality goes into being ok with knowing your actions will directly lead to people's deaths

There really is just a total disregard for the value of some lives

People in power are going to do what they think is best for themselves and they will find ways (cognitive dissonance, etc.) to reconcile their actions with their stated beliefs. Expecting people in authority or with power or with money to act in your best interest or based on some moral or ethical code is just a recipe for disaster and disappointment.

What we need to do is hold people accountable. I think a good starting point is to picture politicians as helpless servants to the whim of the voters and of special interests. In that way they are predictable to some degree.

I'm not trying to remove the morality from what's going on. But in understanding and possibly influencing the outcomes in times like this, I feel like it's most effective to be as cold and calculating about it all as the politicians are.

 

[RustyShackleford]

And the ACA is not based on a Republican plan from Mass.


Romeycare was not popular with Romey himself. He vetoed parts of the bill that helps the poor.


It was Dems in Mass that did the heavy lifting. The chief architect of Romeycare and the ACA was also in charge of Vermont's single payer plan.


Regulation, marketplaces and mandates is just the most right wing on the spectrum of way you can responsibly get close to universal coverage


It still on he left of the spectrum when you look at the national parties


-And let's remember, Romney ran on killing the ACA too.

I'm pretty sure Obamacare was in part based on Romneycare. Not a verbatim copy paste but a significant source of inspiration.
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallp...itt-romney-finally-takes-credit-for-obamacare

I wasn't praising Romney for romneycare. Just stating that the republicans often fail to acknowledge their part in the creation and influences behind the ACA.

I'm saying if Romeycare never existed, the ACA would still probably be written the same way.

The economic theory underlying both plans had been around for decades. Go read Richard Nixon's healthcare plan, it reads like a slightly more left wing ACA.

Mitt Romney tried to slow down the Dems healthcare push in Mass, hoped a election would kill it, and then vetoed part of the bill at the end.

So my point it whether it by the Obamacare and Romneycare, despite their flaws, both laws made the situation better and both were driven by Dems.

The GOP hasn't just been **** on healthcare for simply 8 years, they have been that way for decades now.

But you're right in that the GOP runs for Romneycare, they run from all sensible moderate policies, because they GOP has become so anti-intellectual on a national level it is scary.

 

[whywesteppin]

I'm pretty sure Obamacare was in part based on Romneycare. Not a verbatim copy paste but a significant source of inspiration.
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallp...itt-romney-finally-takes-credit-for-obamacare

I wasn't praising Romney for romneycare. Just stating that the republicans often fail to acknowledge their part in the creation and influences behind the ACA.

I think you misread what Rusty posted.

He's not arguing whether Obamacare was based on Romneycare. What he was saying is that Romneycare was actually good in spite of Romney, not because of him.

 

[rexanglorum]

I don't understand what mentality goes into being ok with knowing your actions will directly lead to people's deaths

There really is just a total disregard for the value of some lives

I may be a bleeding heart liberal but I am also an economist so I can understand a certain frame work where you can justify a policy that would cause a few more deaths in exchange for some other benefit to society.

Most Americans, across the political spectrum, would not support a national speed limit of 25 mph even though such a speed limit would reduce traffic fatalities. In effect, our fail support to this new speed limit means that we are indirectly causing thousands of deaths per year. yet we keep on making that tradeoff since 25 mph speed limit would cripple much of our economy.

So on almost all policy questions, we have to weigh cost and benefits and safety is just one dimension upon which we measure the value of public policy.


Now, I am not defending the AHCA's merits. I am just pointing out that almost everyone has policy positions that involve trading off some measure of safety in order to obtain other things that we want.

 

[RustyShackleford]

The biggest problem with many on the right is that it came from a liberal black man, so they assumed it would help too many minorities

Once the boogieman went away, they realized how much they needed it.

And that is why the country can't progress, too many people can't see that all the **** that will benefit minorities in this country, will also help them

Morons

To add to the irony, the medicaid expansion, which is the real crown jewel of Obamacare, actually helped white people more than non whites.

Even after SCOTUS made it possible for so many poor Southern black people to be denied Medicaid (along with poor whites), conservatives still complained.

 

[handullz]

Yea.

I think it was on Conan. That video was shocking. It opened my eyes to how powerful and effective the right-wing propaganda machine is. They convinced millions of people that Obamacare and the ACA were two different things. They completely omitted the fact that the ACA was based on Romneycare in Masachussetts. Roger Ailes, say what you will about his politics, knew how to run a machine. I've heard his effectiveness compared to Josef Goebbels (Nazi propaganda minister). Frightening stuff really.

edit: It was on Jimmy Kimmel.

To be fair, there was an opposite video (gotta search for it) that shows left leaning people displaying supreme levels of ignorance in reference to conservative views, gun control, and basic American freedoms.

People just aren't well versed in this type of stuff... And I can definitely see how someone could not k ow that they're the same.

 

[whywesteppin]

I don't understand what mentality goes into being ok with knowing your actions will directly lead to people's deaths

There really is just a total disregard for the value of some lives

I may be a bleeding heart liberal but I am also an economist so I can understand a certain frame work where you can justify a policy that would cause a few more deaths in exchange for some other benefit to society.

Most Americans, across the political spectrum, would not support a national speed limit of 25 mph even though such a speed limit would reduce traffic fatalities. In effect, our fail support to this new speed limit means that we are indirectly causing thousands of deaths per year. yet we keep on making that tradeoff since 25 mph speed limit would cripple much of our economy.

So on almost all policy questions, we have to weigh cost and benefits and safety is just one dimension upon which we measure the value of public policy.


Now, I am not defending the AHCA's merits. I am just pointing out that almost everyone has policy positions that involve trading off some measure of safety in order to obtain other things that we want.

Apologies if I misremember it, but I remember a post you made years ago describing how economics is ultimately about limited resources.

As a pragmatist, I raise a red flag whenever I hear an argument that goes for an extreme or is purely based on an ideological appeal, whether it's cutting all social programs or giving everyone free health care. Sure, ideally everyone would have free health care AND we wouldn't pay taxes. But obviously we can't have both of them at the same time.

To me these shouldn't even be ideological debates. They should just be optimization problems. But that almost never happens.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I don't understand what mentality goes into being ok with knowing your actions will directly lead to people's deaths

There really is just a total disregard for the value of some lives

I may be a bleeding heart liberal but I am also an economist so I can understand a certain frame work where you can justify a policy that would cause a few more deaths in exchange for some other benefit to society.

Most Americans, across the political spectrum, would not support a national speed limit of 25 mph even though such a speed limit would reduce traffic fatalities. In effect, our fail support to this new speed limit means that we are indirectly causing thousands of deaths per year. yet we keep on making that tradeoff since 25 mph speed limit would cripple much of our economy.

So on almost all policy questions, we have to weigh cost and benefits and safety is just one dimension upon which we measure the value of public policy.


Now, I am not defending the AHCA's merits. I am just pointing out that almost everyone has policy positions that involve trading off some measure of safety in order to obtain other things that we want.

Here is the thing, I don't think we are having a public policy debates right now. At least not healthy ones

Maybe decades ago liberals and conservatives could look at a economic problem and come up with different plans with different trade offs on how to solve it, not today. While the left seems to be inundated with wonks that bicker among themselves, on the right it is becoming a barren wasteland.

The GOP's only economic arguments these days seems to all end on "the rich and corporations need tax cuts and everything will be ok". They won't even admit there are major economic problems beyond that.

Well, unless they want to attack the Dems when they are out of power.

 

[whywesteppin]

Republicans ran attack ads against Republicans:

 

[RustyShackleford]

Hold you head up Dean, don't let the haters get to you pa.

Stay strong and I promise next year I will hesitate when I vote your punk *** out.

 

[Nike Jordan]

 

Yea.

I think it was on Conan. That video was shocking. It opened my eyes to how powerful and effective the right-wing propaganda machine is. They convinced millions of people that Obamacare and the ACA were two different things. They completely omitted the fact that the ACA was based on Romneycare in Masachussetts. Roger Ailes, say what you will about his politics, knew how to run a machine. I've heard his effectiveness compared to Josef Goebbels (Nazi propaganda minister). Frightening stuff really.

edit: It was on Jimmy Kimmel.

To be fair, there was an opposite video (gotta search for it) that shows left leaning people displaying supreme levels of ignorance in reference to conservative views, gun control, and basic American freedoms.

People just aren't well versed in this type of stuff... And I can definitely see how someone could not k ow that they're the same.

Nobody's out to take away your gun, they are however out to take away your healthcare.

 

[RustyShackleford]

It you look at polling on many issues, there is a lot of ignorance, racism, tribalism on both sides.

But overall it is clearly worst on the right by a large margin.