***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[RustyShackleford]

Nah, Joy Gray on some straight buffoonery too

The fact she seems more popular with white men than other black women should be a massive red flag. When she was doing interviews with black media during the primary is was painful.

 

[rexanglorum]

Nah, Joy Gray on some straight buffoonery too

The fact she seems more popular with white men than other black women should be a massive red flag. When she was doing interviews with black media during the primary is was painful.

It seems like if you’re a leftists you’re more likely to like leftist black women like Nina Turner and Brie and if you’re more moderate/centrist you’re more likely to like moderate/centrist black women like Joy Rein and Zelina Maxwell and if you’re right wing, you’re more likely to like right wing black women like Diamond and Silk. Weird.

 

[RustyShackleford]

It seems like if you’re a leftists you’re more likely to like leftist black women like Nina Turner and Brie and if you’re more moderate/centrist you’re more likely to like moderate/centrist black women like Joy Rein and Zelina Maxwell and if you’re right wing, you’re more likely to like right wing black women like Diamond and Silk. Weird.

It is not that simple imo

I and many people I know don't have an issue with her because she is too far left. As a black person, she does say **** that is frankly condescending and ignorant when it comes to discussing race politics in America. She peddles the same black people don't understand their oppression ******* that far-left white people love to hear.

And I think her being a lead example of a black leftist does the whole socialist movement a disservice. She is overly reactionary, she is detached from political reality, overly obsessed with the Democratic party, and low information. Her takes to come off as the usual class reductionist politics that white men love, mixed in with Bernie Bros ********.

 

[IATT]

 

[rexanglorum]

It is not that simple imo

I and many people I know don't have an issue with her because she is too far left. As a black person, she does say **** that is frankly condescending and ignorant when it comes to discussing race politics in America. She peddles the same black people don't understand their oppression ****ery that far-left white people love to hear.

And I think her being a lead example of a black leftist does the whole socialist movement a disservice. She is overly reactionary, she is detached from political reality, overly obsessed with the Democratic party, and low information. Her takes to come off as the usual class reductionist politics that white men love, mixed in with Bernie Bros bull****.

A lot of that is subjective so at the risk of sounding like the Sea Lion, will have to agree to disagree on most of it.

I listen to her podcast and she more or less says what you said about black voters and the Democratic Party. 1.) the median black voter has more left policy positions than the media white voter and more to the left of Joe Biden 2.) A majority of black primary voters went with a more conservative but safer choice.

Now where me and her diverge from you is we see the Democratic Party as cynically exploiting this dynamic and that the more conservative factions in the Democratic Party are delighted to have an extremist GOP which can be wielded to discipline the left, including the black left. Democratic Party elites have us where they want us, they know it and they delight in it. Democratic elites would hate it if the GOP became less extreme.

Also, she cites the polls and hard data to support her thesis that MSNBC viewers were mislead about how progressive Biden actually wasa third of Biden voters thought he supported M4A) and the fact that MSNBC viewers saw mostly negative stories about Bernie and mostly positive stories about Biden. Some of those viewers were black, many more were white.

Lastly, she cites statistics that rebut the narrative that privileged people do t vote and marginalized people do. It’s the opposite.

Lastly, she made it clear that if she were in a remotely competitive State she’d still have voted for Biden but she was not. Seriously, the haranguing of online Bernie supporters, who lived in NY or DC or California was not about beating Trump it is about moderates and centrists demanding complete social and cultural capitulation despite having won politically. It’s the same as MAGA people winning in 2016 and getting mad that liberal celebrities didn’t start wearing MAGA gear. The obsession over who Brie, a DC resident would vote for, was psychotic especially when most of the Haranguers did make a single phone call for Biden.

I know that there are more black voters who voted for Biden but Bernie got a lot of black votes and you try to dismiss them the way we (rightfully) dismiss the small minority of black voters who vote GOP but it not the same dynamic within the Democratic Party. The black left is real and organic and growing in the way that the so called black right is not.

Also if a voting bloc being under imminent danger from Trump’s re election confers moral authority then surely Chicanos and Muslim Americans were very much under threat from Trump and they supported Bernie more than Biden. It would be a, pardon the pun, Bad Faith argument to tell a Chicano or Muslim, who voted for Joe Biden in the primaries, that they are self hating or condescending to their own people.

I get it you disagree with Brie but acting like she’s the moral equivalent to Diamond and Silk is unfair.

 

[Lake Shore Drive]

If only the police had more money...

Repulsive that Mayor Lightfoot would take those actions.
Especially after seeing former Mayor Rahm get dragged out of office for trying to cover up the Laquan McDonald murder.
I supported and voted for her election but this is unacceptable.

 

[RustyShackleford]

A lot of that is subjective so at the risk of sounding like the Sea Lion, will have to agree to disagree on most of it.

I listen to her podcast and she more or less says what you said about black voters and the Democratic Party. 1.) the median black voter has more left policy positions than the media white voter and more to the left of Joe Biden 2.) A majority of black primary voters went with a more conservative but safer choice.

Now where me and her diverge from you is we see the Democratic Party as cynically exploiting this dynamic and that the more conservative factions in the Democratic Party are delighted to have an extremist GOP which can be wielded to discipline the left, including the black left. Democratic Party elites have us where they want us, they know it and they delight in it. Democratic elites would hate it if the GOP became less extreme.

Also, she cites the polls and hard data to support her thesis that MSNBC viewers were mislead about how progressive Biden actually wasa third of Biden voters thought he supported M4A) and the fact that MSNBC viewers saw mostly negative stories about Bernie and mostly positive stories about Biden. Some of those viewers were black, many more were white.

Lastly, she cites statistics that rebut the narrative that privileged people do t vote and marginalized people do. It’s the opposite.

Lastly, she made it clear that if she were in a remotely competitive State she’d still have voted for Biden but she was not. Seriously, the haranguing of online Bernie supporters, who lived in NY or DC or California was not about beating Trump it is about moderates and centrists demanding complete social and cultural capitulation despite having won politically. It’s the same as MAGA people winning in 2016 and getting mad that liberal celebrities didn’t start wearing MAGA gear. The obsession over who Brie, a DC resident would vote for, was psychotic especially when most of the Haranguers did make a single phone call for Biden.

I know that there are more black voters who voted for Biden but Bernie got a lot of black votes and you try to dismiss them the way we (rightfully) dismiss the small minority of black voters who vote GOP but it not the same dynamic within the Democratic Party. The black left is real and organic and growing in the way that the so called black right is not.

Also if a voting bloc being under imminent danger from Trump’s re election confers moral authority then surely Chicanos and Muslim Americans were very much under threat from Trump and they supported Bernie more than Biden. It would be a, pardon the pun, Bad Faith argument to tell a Chicano or Muslim, who voted for Joe Biden in the primaries, that they are self hating or condescending to their own people.

I get it you disagree with Brie but acting like she’s the moral equivalent to Diamond and Silk is unfair.

I didn't try to draw an equivalency to Diamond and Silk. In fact, if anything, you did that. With this post...

It seems like if you’re a leftists you’re more likely to like leftist black women like Nina Turner and Brie and if you’re more moderate/centrist you’re more likely to like moderate/centrist black women like Joy Rein and Zelina Maxwell and if you’re right wing, you’re more likely to like right wing black women like Diamond and Silk. Weird.

My point was that people's issue with her is not strictly because they dislike her choice of Presidential candidate or affinity for leftist policy.

I have been pretty clear about my criticism of her. I didn't claim moral authority, I didn't act as though only black people have it. Or I do it because I am black. So I don't know what you feel compelled you cite the minority groups that voted for Bernie. I didn't respect this rhetorical move from you in February, I damn sure won't respect it now.

I have been checking for this woman long before she started her stupid podcast. I have been critical of her, and her antics, since before the 2016 election. I have listened to her outside of her podcast. A lot of leftist political analysis is condescending toward some black people, she regurgitates a lot of those bad framing, a lot of the bad talking points too. You want to say she doesn't do it all the time, fine. You want to argue that you don't find it condescending, then cool, like you said, there might be a reason for that. But again, we probably disagree on that reason.

The fact that when she went in front of black media, and she was questioned as to why Sanders and his supporters ****** on the Democratic Party was coming off as insulting and condescending, never addressed this issue. Instead, she routinely tried to flip it into a well I have been calling names for my support of Bernie. The reasons she gives for black support for the Democratic party is offend not based in reality, hence why I call it condescending.

This is a woman that likes to throw stones, especially on Twitter, then hide her hands.

So much of this post is putting **** I didn't say at my feet, so I am not gonna bother with it. Like in the past I didn't criticize her for voting for Bernie, or saying she was not voting for Biden, it was that she was going on TV and other media outlets trying to rationalize her asinine reasons for doing so, which could lead influence people in swing states. She did this while peddling untrue ******** about the Democratic party as well.

My issue and a lot of people's issue is not that the black left is growing.

Is that white leftist seemingly only welcome black voices that agree with their politics. Then act oblivious when people point that out. And never grapple with that issue in any real way. White leftists like her politics because she challenges others, she challenges their enemies, she doesn't challenge them in any real way. This is what gets me, leftist throw these shots at liberal media and pundits, even black ones, but never show any self-reflection. Furthermore Joy Gray has a voice and she doesn't use it to challenge them in any real way. Even worse, she repeats a lot of the untrue buffoonery the ****tiest of leftists believe. She is there to seemingly challenge one status quo, yet protects another at the same time.

All things considered. I am not surprised you like her, it makes sense. Her reaction to Bernie losing and where she placed the blame was similar to yours.

 

[rexanglorum]

“Is that white leftist seemingly only welcome black voices that agree with their politics. Then act oblivious when people point that out. And ever grapple with that issue in any real way. White leftists like her politics because she challenges others, she challenges their enemies, she doesn't challenge them in any real way. This is what gets me, leftist throw these shots at liberal media and pundits, even black ones, but never show any self-reflection. Furthermore Joy Gray has a voice and she doesn't use it to challenge them in any real way. Even worse, she repeats a lot of the untrue buffoonery the ****tiest of leftists believe. She is there to seemingly challenge one status quo, yet protects another at the same time.”

You can just sub out leftist for liberals and swap out Joy Gray for Joy Reid. How often does MSNBC have Adolph Reid and Cornell West on their shows? Rarely if ever. MSNBC curates black liberal hosts and guests (and purges black leftist voices) to make their liberal audience comfortable.

Now look, if you’re a white consumer of media, you should curate voices from multiple racial and gender groups and check out ideologies at least near your own so if you’re a leftist check out progressive and moderate black voices and white liberals should listen to black Marxists and social Democrats. That, however, is on the listener.

Brie is putting her perspective out there and your critique is that she’s problematic because her white listeners include too many leftists whom she doesn’t challenge. Here’s how to remedy the problem, white liberals listen to Brie and then those white people will be challenged by Brie.

 

[wavycrocket]

Is that white leftist seemingly only welcome black voices that agree with their politics. Then act oblivious when people point that out. And ever grapple with that issue in any real way. White leftists like her politics because she challenges others, she challenges their enemies, she doesn't challenge them in any real way. This is what gets me, leftist throw these shots at liberal media and pundits, even black ones, but never show any self-reflection. Furthermore Joy Gray has a voice and she doesn't use it to challenge them in any real way. Even worse, she repeats a lot of the untrue buffoonery the ****tiest of leftists believe. She is there to seemingly challenge one status quo, yet protects another at the same time.

This
This
This

And the cozying up, and red-brown alliance she’s falling into....as the COVER for libertarian “left” white supremacist is alarming.

Black folk see the play. We all do.

 

[RustyShackleford]

“Is that white leftist seemingly only welcome black voices that agree with their politics. Then act oblivious when people point that out. And ever grapple with that issue in any real way. White leftists like her politics because she challenges others, she challenges their enemies, she doesn't challenge them in any real way. This is what gets me, leftist throw these shots at liberal media and pundits, even black ones, but never show any self-reflection. Furthermore Joy Gray has a voice and she doesn't use it to challenge them in any real way. Even worse, she repeats a lot of the untrue buffoonery the ****tiest of leftists believe. She is there to seemingly challenge one status quo, yet protects another at the same time.”

You can just sub out leftist for liberals and swap out Joy Gray for Joy Reid. How often does MSNBC have Adolph Reid and Cornell West on their shows? Rarely if ever. MSNBC curates black liberal hosts and guests (and purges black leftist voices) to make their liberal audience comfortable.

Now look, if you’re a white consumer of media, you should curate voices from multiple racial and gender groups and check out ideologies at least near your own so if you’re a leftist check out progressive and moderate black voices and white liberals should listen to black Marxists and social Democrats. That, however, is on the listener.

Brie is putting her perspective out there and your critique is that she’s problematic because her white listeners include too many leftists whom she doesn’t challenge. Here’s how to remedy the problem, white liberals listen to Brie and then those white people will be challenged by Brie.

You are proving my point. Your comeback was basically a whataboutism about liberals. Liberal media is not perfect, farrrrrrr from it, but it is better than leftist media. I am not here to defend liberal media, I am just pointing out clear hypocrisy from leftist on this issue You saying this proves nothing beyond my original point about the lack of self-reflection


There is more diversity of black thought in liberal media than leftist. Liberal media is a **** show, yet it does better than other ideological factions in this area.

More black thought that challenges the white liberal consensus. Joy-Ann Reid, no matter how hung up you are about her, is not representative of the median black liberal pundit. Hell Bill Maher's racist trash *** as on Cornell West (who does go on NSNBC too), Killer Mike, and Michael Eric Dyson routinely. And give me a ******* break, people like Eddie Glaude jr. Bakari Sellers, Jelani Cobb, Ibram X. Kendi, Adam Sewer, and others are there to make white liberal audiences comfortable. Well, I guess that white liberals are more progressive than I thought.

Like do you ever think that people like Joy Gray, West, and A. Reid are shown popular in leftist media (a group that is probably even whiter than liberal circles) because their opinions give comfort to white leftists (people in media and listeners generally)? Because I don't see leftists outlets signal boosting many black voices that make them and their listeners uncomfortable.

You basically made a post today about the damage news outlets do. But now it is all on the listener to curate diverse opinions themselves. So then by your logic, it is on the listener to create their won firewall against nonsense

I know that Facebook is trash but I can’t get too worked up about them because so many other conduits of information push so many falsehoods which cause as much if not more harm than what rubs through Facebook.

Our public schools, MSNBC, CNN, NYT, Congressional Reports, major think tanks have peddled stories such as: crack babies, the notion that jobs training is the answer to falling wages, the notion that 5% UI is full employment, national debt and deficit hysteria, the notion that Iraq had WMDs, the belief that Mortgage backed securities could fail, the idea that there is a “skills gap” so 8% is the new full employment rate, etc.

Those bad ideas were acted upon by people with political power.

Also, I do feel like elite gate keepers of Information only dislike Facebook because they have less control over it than they do over what gets printed in the Washington Lost or who goes on “Meet the Press.” Again, the supposedly better and more responsible platforms have given a platform to Colin Powell, Lyndsey Graham, John McCain, Charles Murray, Rudy Giuliani.

Not to excuse Facebook but where do we draw the line at what is harmful, what is “misinformation” and what causes harm because what I see on MSM causes harm all over the world.

Why is it always One Mic one second, then Ochie Wally the next?

And BTW, I am pretty sure I have pointed out her lies about the Democratic Parties' policy positions, her low information takes, her reactionary tendencies, her bad faith online antics on Twitter, and her generally bad antagonistic politics that is condescending, as reasons I don't rock with her. It was not her leftist politics, or her making white people comfortable, it is the buffoonery she engages in an attempt to further her politics.

She is on a podcast you like, and make points you like, and maybe that is her at her best. So somehow that should be all she is judged on.

Sorry, but no.

 

[rexanglorum]

So your closing argument is “you suck, you like her show so she sucks.”

cool

 

[RustyShackleford]

So your closing argument is “you suck, you like her show so she sucks.”

cool

No it is not

That is just what you misrepresent is as so you can pretend I am being unfair to you, her, and leftist in general.

But then again...

 

[rexanglorum]

No it is not

That is just what you misrepresent is as so you can pretend I am being unfair to you, her, and leftist in general.

I suppose I misread the very last part.

I feel like in my preferred media, many of my favorite podcasts do emphasize that as important as the struggle against capital is, there are other, intersecting forms of oppression and appropriate along lines of race and gender specifically. There are some parts of the left that could do to learn that and there are a lot of leftists who have previously been made uncomfortable and fully acceptable that there are structures of white supremacy that lace all through out our society and those oppressive structures must be abolished by any and all means necessary. So on some of these podcasts, everyone agrees on a radical racial critique, what they don;t agree upon, either with the other hosts or with the subject of the days news, is how to dismantle those structures such as capital, the Democratic consulting class, the GOP, the US Constitution, the US Empire and the police. Of course the majority of the time will be about fighting those structures and little if any time will be dedicated to whether or not those structures ought to be destroyed.

Meanwhile on MSNBC, I don't see much that would challenge even the most centrist of liberals. Before Trump, that was not the case but post Trump, it seems like most of the hosts and guests, even many of the black guests, assure the moderately affluent, over 50, more likely than not white viewer that America fundamentally works, the US Constitution works, the US spying and war making apparatus is a force for good and the only problems exists in this country come from Donald Trump and his low IQ and always poor white supporters. With Bernie and his supporters they crafted a similar message which was everyone who supports Bernie or Trump are all white, they are the bad whites and you, white MSNBC viewer and centrist Democrat, who admires Bill Clinton and fondly remembers the Bush years, are perfect on race, because you voted for Obama and now Biden, and that's why you deserve the wealth you have. If you're a guest including a black guest on MSNBC, post 2016, the more you pander to that, the more you are on and the more you deviate, the less you're on.

Now, the people you mentioned like Bakari Sellers, for instance, have a body of work that fearlessly point out the pervasive power of white supremacy. Ironically, when Bakari Sellers is CNN, he is able to tell it like it is but on MSNBC, post 2016, even normally radical black voices have to trim their sails to make the BMW-buying, well off retirees that white supremacy is only something that afflicts the other white people, the bad white people who don't believe in America. It's baffling how such an increasingly culturally woke news outlet can act like American nationalism and trust in the American state are the paths to racial egalitarianism. If MSNBC sought to make its white viewers uncomfortable, they would never had rolled with that premise to begin with and if they still did. Now that said, MSNBC on the weekends is platforming a more radical critique more and more though not quiet as radical and white discomfort inducing as Melissa Harris Perry did in the glorious pre Russia, pre Trump days.

TLDR;

News outlets tend to agree with their listeners and vice verse, it's not just a left media thing. Some exceptions do exist though.

Many left podcasts do have a radical racial critique foundational to the show's ethos and it doesn't make its listeners uncomfortable most of the time because we have in us a radical critique Now would I like it if some podcasts on the left were more intersectional and demand that their largely white audiences considered intersectional modes of oppression? you better believe it.

 

[zekethephysique]

Don't ever give a dweeb any power or money.

Not getting the girl, making the team, or never being cool as a kid makes dudes like this.

 

[IATT]

This woman paid a lil too much attention to when the teacher would put on a movie in school

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

one day, I hope, democrats will flex some muscle

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[gry60]

Clowns.

Edit: this is the tweet they're replying to:

 

[Rootin4EverybodyBlack]

Nobody with a shred of common sense should expect radical change compared to pre-Trump America, from Biden’s presidency. He’s just not going to actively destroy democracy, peddle conspiracy theories, or embarrass the nation in front of world leaders. If you’re expecting significant change, you’re gonna have to wait 4 years. It sucks, but it is what it is.

 

[IATT]

 

[junglejim]

Nobody with a shred of common sense should expect radical change compared to pre-Trump America, from Biden’s presidency. He’s just not going to actively destroy democracy, peddle conspiracy theories, or embarrass the nation in front of world leaders. If you’re expecting significant change, you’re gonna have to wait 4 years. It sucks, but it is what it is.

I think people need to accept that unless democrats hold a significant majority in the house and senate there will probably never be radical change in this country regardless of who the elected leader is. Change has and almost certainly will always be slow. It won't matter if AOC/Bernie/Warren is president if there is a significant roadblock in the way in the Senate and House.

 

[kungfu koala]

holy $#@% that mf on the wheelchair.
Can only imagine how big an ahole he was on 2 feet.
...its like that chair amplifies the douchebaggery..

 

[gry60]

Suma cum laude from Trump U doing what they do best.