One Question: Is Ray Allen a HOF'er?

[xtapolapacetl]

His longevity will get him in even though at his absolute peak he probably wasn't a top 10 player in the league. One all-NBA 2nd team and one all-NBA 3rd team.

This "best shooter of all time" though? You can forget about that. Not after the 2010 finals. The best shooter of all time doesn't go 0-13 (0-8 3s) in a finals game and then have another horrible shooting performance in a game 7 of the finals. And a lot of those were open/good looks. Steve Nash and Larry Bird are and were definitely better shooters than Ray. And there are a bunch who are debatable (such as Reggie Miller, Glen Rice, Dale Ellis, Chris Mullin, Mark Price and Mitch Richmond) Prettiest jumpshot of all time shouldn't be confused with the best. And BTW, I'll sign any document that says Ray is the prettiest shooter ever.

 

[JD617]

Originally Posted by LouisVuittonDonKing

Originally Posted by JD617

But what players would you drop out of the Top 10 below to make room for Ray Allen?

Jason Kidd and Gary Payton.

Stop it.

Stop what? Neither of them were better than Ray in '00-'01.

 

[JD617]

Originally Posted by LouisVuittonDonKing

Originally Posted by JD617

But what players would you drop out of the Top 10 below to make room for Ray Allen?

Jason Kidd and Gary Payton.

Stop it.

Stop what? Neither of them were better than Ray in '00-'01.

 

[playmaker86]

Ray- Hands Down Hall of Famer

 

[playmaker86]

Ray- Hands Down Hall of Famer

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

His longevity will get him in even though at his absolute peak he probably wasn't a top 10 player in the league. One all-NBA 2nd team and one all-NBA 3rd team.

This "best shooter of all time" though? You can forget about that. Not after the 2010 finals. The best shooter of all time doesn't go 0-13 (0-8 3s) in a finals game and then have another horrible shooting performance in a game 7 of the finals. And a lot of those were open/good looks. Steve Nash and Larry Bird are and were definitely better shooters than Ray. And there are a bunch who are debatable (such as Reggie Miller, Glen Rice, Dale Ellis, Chris Mullin, Mark Price and Mitch Richmond) Prettiest jumpshot of all time shouldn't be confused with the best. And BTW, I'll sign any document that says Ray is the prettiest shooter ever.

I feel ya and agree to an extent. I wouldnt knock all of his clutch performances, and ignore his bigshots based on a few horrid shooting games in a finals. Lets not forget Kobe had a few suck it up games in the finals also. But i still will say he is one of the best clutches in the game and a top possible 5 or 10 player of all time.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

His longevity will get him in even though at his absolute peak he probably wasn't a top 10 player in the league. One all-NBA 2nd team and one all-NBA 3rd team.

This "best shooter of all time" though? You can forget about that. Not after the 2010 finals. The best shooter of all time doesn't go 0-13 (0-8 3s) in a finals game and then have another horrible shooting performance in a game 7 of the finals. And a lot of those were open/good looks. Steve Nash and Larry Bird are and were definitely better shooters than Ray. And there are a bunch who are debatable (such as Reggie Miller, Glen Rice, Dale Ellis, Chris Mullin, Mark Price and Mitch Richmond) Prettiest jumpshot of all time shouldn't be confused with the best. And BTW, I'll sign any document that says Ray is the prettiest shooter ever.

I feel ya and agree to an extent. I wouldnt knock all of his clutch performances, and ignore his bigshots based on a few horrid shooting games in a finals. Lets not forget Kobe had a few suck it up games in the finals also. But i still will say he is one of the best clutches in the game and a top possible 5 or 10 player of all time.

 

[651akathepaul]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

Love the guy, but I just can't say for sure.

HOF's become more blurred to me with each passing year anyway. It's so hard to decipher based on the precedent and standards already set.

Translation - He will get in, but did his career really exemplify HOF caliber?....Not too sure on that one.

The blur comes mostly from when you compare a currently eligible player to a player who is already in and by default make the assumption that if Player A got in, then how could leave out Player B?

I just feel the HOF can get convuluded with players not neccessarily deserving of what you would think is HOF caliber. 

I just don't think I can bring myself to saying that Reggie Miller  is one of the greatest to ever play the game. That may sound silly, but in my mind, he kind of got lucky with the era in which he played. He was a superstar in the mid 90's, but I don't neccessarily think that makes him a bona fide superstar.

Going further, If I don't think Reggie is a HOF'er, then why would I think so of Ray Allen? I think Ray Allen is a better player than Reggie was, yet in this era we just figured out that Ray was never once a Top 10 player. How would that make him one of the greaters to ever play. Very good indeed, but not great.

The blur is by the circumstances which voters and fans perceive to be HOF worthy and what credentials justify such a status.


 

 

[651akathepaul]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

Love the guy, but I just can't say for sure.

HOF's become more blurred to me with each passing year anyway. It's so hard to decipher based on the precedent and standards already set.

Translation - He will get in, but did his career really exemplify HOF caliber?....Not too sure on that one.

The blur comes mostly from when you compare a currently eligible player to a player who is already in and by default make the assumption that if Player A got in, then how could leave out Player B?

I just feel the HOF can get convuluded with players not neccessarily deserving of what you would think is HOF caliber. 

I just don't think I can bring myself to saying that Reggie Miller  is one of the greatest to ever play the game. That may sound silly, but in my mind, he kind of got lucky with the era in which he played. He was a superstar in the mid 90's, but I don't neccessarily think that makes him a bona fide superstar.

Going further, If I don't think Reggie is a HOF'er, then why would I think so of Ray Allen? I think Ray Allen is a better player than Reggie was, yet in this era we just figured out that Ray was never once a Top 10 player. How would that make him one of the greaters to ever play. Very good indeed, but not great.

The blur is by the circumstances which voters and fans perceive to be HOF worthy and what credentials justify such a status.


 

 

[juan baller]

Originally Posted by JD617

Originally Posted by LouisVuittonDonKing

Originally Posted by JD617

But what players would you drop out of the Top 10 below to make room for Ray Allen?

Jason Kidd and Gary Payton.

Stop it.

Stop what? Neither of them were better than Ray in '00-'01.
Stop embarrassing yourself.

I can only assume you're forgetting that defense is half of the game. Both Kidd and Payton were 1st team All-Defense in 2000-01. And Kidd made the overall All-NBA 1st team, so to say he wasn't a Top 10 player that year is ridiculous. Kidd and Payton were by far the 2 best PGs that year. Ray Allen wasn't even Top 4 at his position.. Iverson, Bryant, McGrady, and Carter all performed better at SG in 2000-01. He's never been one of the 10 best players in the league at any point in his career.

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Hislongevity will get him in even though at his absolute peak he probablywasn't a top 10 player in the league. One all-NBA 2nd team and oneall-NBA 3rd team.

There's no probably about it. Ray Allen was never a top 10 player. That All-NBA2nd team selection in 2004-05 was fraudulent. Kobe was snubbed (28-6-6 with a better FG%) and relegated to the 3rd team. Paul Pierce had a better year than Ray Allen in 2004-05 and wasn't selected at all.

 

[juan baller]

Originally Posted by JD617

Originally Posted by LouisVuittonDonKing

Originally Posted by JD617

But what players would you drop out of the Top 10 below to make room for Ray Allen?

Jason Kidd and Gary Payton.

Stop it.

Stop what? Neither of them were better than Ray in '00-'01.
Stop embarrassing yourself.

I can only assume you're forgetting that defense is half of the game. Both Kidd and Payton were 1st team All-Defense in 2000-01. And Kidd made the overall All-NBA 1st team, so to say he wasn't a Top 10 player that year is ridiculous. Kidd and Payton were by far the 2 best PGs that year. Ray Allen wasn't even Top 4 at his position.. Iverson, Bryant, McGrady, and Carter all performed better at SG in 2000-01. He's never been one of the 10 best players in the league at any point in his career.

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Hislongevity will get him in even though at his absolute peak he probablywasn't a top 10 player in the league. One all-NBA 2nd team and oneall-NBA 3rd team.

There's no probably about it. Ray Allen was never a top 10 player. That All-NBA2nd team selection in 2004-05 was fraudulent. Kobe was snubbed (28-6-6 with a better FG%) and relegated to the 3rd team. Paul Pierce had a better year than Ray Allen in 2004-05 and wasn't selected at all.

 

[essential1]

Not even a question..

 

[essential1]

Not even a question..

 

[nooera]

Originally Posted by JD617

LouisVuittonDonKing wrote:

---

JD617 wrote:

---

But what players would you drop out of the Top 10 below to make room for Ray Allen?

Jason Kidd and Gary Payton.

Stop it.

Stop what? Neither of them were better than Ray in '00-'01.

 

[nooera]

Originally Posted by JD617

LouisVuittonDonKing wrote:

---

JD617 wrote:

---

But what players would you drop out of the Top 10 below to make room for Ray Allen?

Jason Kidd and Gary Payton.

Stop it.

Stop what? Neither of them were better than Ray in '00-'01.

 

[ac4three]

One of the worst thread failures I have ever seen...

 

[ac4three]

One of the worst thread failures I have ever seen...

 

[dmbrhs]

Originally Posted by Juan Baller

Ray Allen and Reggie Miller never played at a HOF level at any point in their careers, but they'll make it to the Hall for lifetime achievement.

As opposed to all the people in the hall who are in it only for a couple seasons' worth of stellar play? The hall is a lifetime achievement honor.

 

[dmbrhs]

Originally Posted by Juan Baller

Ray Allen and Reggie Miller never played at a HOF level at any point in their careers, but they'll make it to the Hall for lifetime achievement.

As opposed to all the people in the hall who are in it only for a couple seasons' worth of stellar play? The hall is a lifetime achievement honor.

 

[juan baller]

Originally Posted by dmbrhs

Originally Posted by Juan Baller

Ray Allen and Reggie Miller never played at a HOF level at any point in their careers, but they'll make it to the Hall for lifetime achievement.

As opposed to all the people in the hall who are in it only for a couple seasons' worth of stellar play? The hall is a lifetime achievement honor.

I've already said that longevity should be an component of being in the HOF, but you shouldn't be able to get in mostly off longevity. If Lamar Odom ends up playing deep into his 30s, he'll end up with big career totals in many different statistical categories. Nobody can match all of Odom's totals in rebounds, assists, 3-pointers, steals, and blocks in their first 12 seasons in the league.. only Charles Barkley even comes close. So if Lamar Odom is productive into 30s and ends up with unmatched lifetime achievement stats, he should make the HOF?

 

[juan baller]

Originally Posted by dmbrhs

Originally Posted by Juan Baller

Ray Allen and Reggie Miller never played at a HOF level at any point in their careers, but they'll make it to the Hall for lifetime achievement.

As opposed to all the people in the hall who are in it only for a couple seasons' worth of stellar play? The hall is a lifetime achievement honor.

I've already said that longevity should be an component of being in the HOF, but you shouldn't be able to get in mostly off longevity. If Lamar Odom ends up playing deep into his 30s, he'll end up with big career totals in many different statistical categories. Nobody can match all of Odom's totals in rebounds, assists, 3-pointers, steals, and blocks in their first 12 seasons in the league.. only Charles Barkley even comes close. So if Lamar Odom is productive into 30s and ends up with unmatched lifetime achievement stats, he should make the HOF?

 

[dunknforce]

Originally Posted by AIRJORDAN JB23

at Terry .gif being put to use right away.

Both get in... No question.

 

[dunknforce]

Originally Posted by AIRJORDAN JB23

at Terry .gif being put to use right away.

Both get in... No question.

 

[JD617]

Originally Posted by NooEra

Nice contribution.

Originally Posted by Juan Baller

Stop embarrassing yourself.

I can only assume you're forgetting that defense is half of the game. Both Kidd and Payton were 1st team All-Defense in 2000-01. And Kidd made the overall All-NBA 1st team, so to say he wasn't a Top 10 player that year is ridiculous. Kidd and Payton were by far the 2 best PGs that year. Ray Allen wasn't even Top 4 at his position.. Iverson, Bryant, McGrady, and Carter all performed better at SG in 2000-01. He's never been one of the 10 best players in the league at any point in his career.

Embarrassing myself? We both know the All-Defensive Teams are an annual joke. Not sure why you're putting so much emphasis on those and the All-NBA teams, in which politics also play a role. Payton's defense had started to slip by that point. He wasn't quite the game-changing perimeter defender that he was earlier in his career.

I don't understand why we're acting like it's a landslide here...

I think a case can be made for Ray. If you disagree, that's fine, but let's stop acting like what I said was that outlandish.

Also, I'm noticing that someone's bricklaying caused him to fall outside the top 20 that year in a few notable categories...

And for the people who dismiss individual numbers when they come on bad teams, Ray's Bucks won 52 games that year compared to 51 for Kidd's Suns and 44 for Gary's Sonics.

 

[JD617]

Originally Posted by NooEra

Nice contribution.

Originally Posted by Juan Baller

Stop embarrassing yourself.

I can only assume you're forgetting that defense is half of the game. Both Kidd and Payton were 1st team All-Defense in 2000-01. And Kidd made the overall All-NBA 1st team, so to say he wasn't a Top 10 player that year is ridiculous. Kidd and Payton were by far the 2 best PGs that year. Ray Allen wasn't even Top 4 at his position.. Iverson, Bryant, McGrady, and Carter all performed better at SG in 2000-01. He's never been one of the 10 best players in the league at any point in his career.

Embarrassing myself? We both know the All-Defensive Teams are an annual joke. Not sure why you're putting so much emphasis on those and the All-NBA teams, in which politics also play a role. Payton's defense had started to slip by that point. He wasn't quite the game-changing perimeter defender that he was earlier in his career.

I don't understand why we're acting like it's a landslide here...

I think a case can be made for Ray. If you disagree, that's fine, but let's stop acting like what I said was that outlandish.

Also, I'm noticing that someone's bricklaying caused him to fall outside the top 20 that year in a few notable categories...

And for the people who dismiss individual numbers when they come on bad teams, Ray's Bucks won 52 games that year compared to 51 for Kidd's Suns and 44 for Gary's Sonics.