PALESTINIAN GENOCIDE - ISRAELI-TERRORISM AWARENESS THREAD

[peteymcflight]

Since so few Israelis are actually dying from these terrifying rockets that Hamas is firing, you'd think that they would work a little harder to keep the ratio of Palestinian civilians/children killed lower, but the fact of the matter is that they are either militarily incompetent or just plain don't give a **** about killing off Palestinians. It's almost certainly the latter of the two.

Agreed.

 

[peteymcflight]

No, it is not like that.

It is to post his insight into this discussion which a lot of us here agree with. Just like with the other end posting from authors whose views they think represent the debate clearly and in a valid way to them. 

Some people wanna shove their opinion down your throat because they have unresolved **** with it in their own heads.

 

[duba169]

I understand why they think they have a claim to the land. Just like I understand why jews think they have a right to the land. That's not the hard part. It's exactly what the territories of each state would be and how you guarantee safety for israel if you want that blockade lifted. Which egypt won't want to lift either. Because of hamas. And because once the land is split there will be plenty of palestinians that want to go for the whole thing and conquer israel. And the world won't care. Appeasement for israel is always dangerous.

 

[peteymcflight]

I understand why they think they have a claim to the land. Just like I understand why jews think they have a right to the land. That's not the hard part. It's exactly what the territories of each state would be and how you guarantee safety for israel if you want that blockade lifted. Which egypt won't want to lift either. Because of hamas. And because once the land is split there will be plenty of palestinians that want to go for the whole thing and conquer israel. And the world won't care. Appeasement for israel is always dangerous.

Because there are going to be a few bad apples (i.e. radical terrorists) we should just occupy and oppress an entire group of people. Yeah makes sense.

 

[whywesteppin]

 whywesteppin,

Why is Chomsky not to be taken as serious for his commentary on this conflict? He is a political commentator and activist as well. he is well versed in many topics and fields besides linguistics. There is a reason why he is voted as the world's top public intellectual. He has been publicly commenting on foreign policy since 1967 when he gained public attention for his vocal opposition to U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War, and came to be associated with the New Left movement while being arrested on multiple occasions for his anti-war activism. In fact, he continues to be VERY well known as a political activist, and a leading critic of U.S. foriegn policy, state capitalism, and the mainstream news media. 

He has even written a few books on the Middle Eastern conflicts. Have you ever read his very well received and critiqued book The Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians? 

He can be taken seriously. But he is not THE authority. Given his track record, It's no surprise that he's going to to be critical of Israel, so we can't just reflexively say, "Chomsky is smart and a Jew but against Israel so the whole debate is over."

That's the simplistic view, at least. Really we should analyze his individual arguments and logic, and in that regard I agree with some of what he says (although I admit I have not read his books).

Appeasement for israel is always dangerous.

Fine, appeasement in the sense of giving in to demands is not helpful. But accepting compromise should be on the table, even if it has a chance of being dangerous. We'll never reach any solution if both sides stick to absolute arguments.

 

[me love nutella]

I understand why they think they have a claim to the land. Just like I understand why jews think they have a right to the land. That's not the hard part. It's exactly what the territories of each state would be and how you guarantee safety for israel if you want that blockade lifted. Which egypt won't want to lift either. Because of hamas. And because once the land is split there will be plenty of palestinians that want to go for the whole thing and conquer israel. And the world won't care. Appeasement for israel is always dangerous.

I think the way it was done was completely messed up. 

However, Zionism was a less popular movement, until the Holocaust. So now, you have the European Jews who were persecuted who saw the foundation of Israel as a safe haven (I still do not see how it changed things and now Israel is safe where supposedly they are surrounded by hostile neighbors and those it occupies that are fighting them to gain their freedom). But, in order to establish Israel and create a Jewish state, indigenous Arab population had to be uprooted and split it up in ways quite unfair to them as well. That's was the issue. 

But, since international laws have been implemented, like I said what is done is done. Israel was established and created and Arabs have to accept it. Now, the issue at hand is to give Palestinians their state and end the occupation. The mistreatment, discrimination, constant repression, violations of human rights, illegal violations, persecution, towards the Palestinians is what needs to end. This is not just a political issue, but a humanitarian issue. Freedom. That's all they want. The root of this all is the occupation. But, like we discussed before, the issues of the refugees and Jerusalem will be quite hard to solve. 

 

[duba169]

A few bad apples. Like its some punk kids breaking windows

Fact is you need to convince people in Israel who remember all the suicide bombings and killings that they would be safe without a blockade. Because there's a saying "I'd rather be a mean jew than a dead jew" American jews aren't who need to be convinced

And Egypt. Which for some reason you all gloss over

what government would be set up? What happens if civil war breaks out? Or the government is overthrown? What about human rights of women?

Let's not pretend it's a snap of the fingers and easy peezy we are done

Possiby most important of all... will secular and moderate Muslims be safe sharing their opinions

 

[me love nutella]

He can be taken seriously. But he is not THE authority. Given his track record, It's no surprise that he's going to to be critical of Israel, so we can't just reflexively say, "Chomsky is smart and a Jew but against Israel so the whole debate is over."

That's the simplistic view, at least. Really we should analyze his individual arguments and logic, and in that regard I agree with some of what he says (although I admit I have not read his books).
We can't be doing that if we ever hope for a solution. We can't be making absolute statements like that.

OK, fine, it doesn't matter what we say on here. But as long as Israelis are convinced they can never live in peace near a Palestinian state and as long as Palestinians are convinced that Israelis want to get rid of them, then all this debate is a non-starter and the fighting will never end.

Ok I get you. 

No one can be authority. Now I know what you mean. 

 

[julius wrek]

Since Chomsky is quite popular at the moment please watch his interview with Demorcacy Now...

Click the link

Julius Wrek

 

[me love nutella]

For those Pro-Israeli debaters who use this rehash from Israeli's PR. So let's twist this....

 
AlterNet  [1]  / By  Max Blumenthal  [2]

[h1]How Israel Used Its Own Civilians as Human Shields While Assaulting Gaza[/h1]

August 6, 2014   |  

Throughout the ongoing assault on the Gaza Strip, perhaps no phrase has featured as prominently or persistently in the lexicon of Israeli propaganda as “human shields.” Repeated in stentorian fashion by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and a heavily regimented army of 10,000 public relations flacks, the phrase has been ruthlessly deployed  [3] to shield Israel from responsibility for the bloodbath it has caused in Gaza. Israel has killed 1,800 civilians in a matter of weeks, including some 430 children, but it was Hamas that forced them to do it.

Like so many Zionist accusations against Palestinian society (“They only understand force,” “They teach their children to hate,” “They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity”) the human shields slander is a projection. Israel is the most militarized society on earth, with soldiers and military installations honeycombed throughout its civil society. With full military conscription for all men and women and reserve duty required for all Jews until they reach their 40s, Jewish Israelis alternate constantly between the role of civilian and soldier, blurring the line between the two.

Within one of Tel Aviv’s most densely populated neighborhoods sits Ha’Kirya, the army’s headquarters, a gigantic complex of monolithic buildings that house the offices where attacks on Gaza are planned. The uniformed officers and soldiers who work inside take lunch in the cafes and shop in the malls surrounding their offices, embedding themselves among the civilian population. A military base is nestled  [4] in the middle of the campus of Haifa University while Hebrew and Tel Aviv Universities offer military officers free tuition, encouraging their enrollment and allowing them to carry weapons on campus. It is hard to find a henhouse, flophouse, or fieldhouse anywhere in Israel without some kind of military presence.

In an editorial  [5] for the Israeli daily, Yedioth Aharonot, veteran Israeli military advisor Giora Eiland argued in favor of collectively punishing Gaza’s civilian population. “In order to guarantee our interests versus the other side’s demands, we must avoid the artificial, wrong and dangerous distinction between the Hamas people, who are ‘the bad guys,’ and Gaza's residents, which are allegedly ‘the good guys.’”

Naturally, Eiland failed to consider the terrible implications of eliminating the distinction between civilians and the armed factions that move among them: If his logic were inverted to apply to Israeli society, where civilians are soldiers and soldiers are civilians, almost every Jewish Israeli citizen could be considered a legitimate target.

Most vulnerable among the Jewish Israeli public are residents of the communities surrounding the Gaza Strip. Many of these working class development towns and kibbutzim were planted during the 1950s in place of the Palestinians who had just been forcibly expelled. In al-Majdal Asqalan, now known as Ashkelon, Jewish immigrants from the Middle East were literally trucked in to replace the Palestinians who had been held within a barbed wire enclosure before being outcasted to Gaza. Today, these largely neglected communities form a human wall against the demographic threat tucked behind a high-tech cordon sanitaire just to their south.

Not only do Israel’s southern communities exist under the threat of rocket and mortar attacks from those they displaced, they are routinely used as shelters and temporary bases by the Israeli army.

Renan Raz, a 26-year-old waiter and anti-occupation activist now living in Tel Aviv, remembers the anguish he experienced when the army arrived in Dorot, the southern kibbutz where he was born and raised. It was the height of Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli assault on that left over 1400 Palestinian Gazans dead, mostly civilians, between December 2008 and January 2009.

“Most of the days soldiers were fighting in the Gaza Strip in the morning and in the evening they were coming back to our kibbutz, bringing their weapons there, they were sleeping there, and sometimes they were practicing [military drills] in the fields, in the kibbutz grass — they were hiding there and making plans,” Raz told me. “The way I saw it, they were using us as human shields.”

Raz recalled, “We were right on the border of the Gaza Strip and they were practicing in the fields with weaponry, whether it’s with their rifle or armored vehicles. I could hear explosions [from the fields] while they were practicing and maybe even shooting things into Gaza.”

“We are a sick military society,” he continued. “You can’t say Hamas is using their civilians as a human shield when it’s obvious that our army is using all of us as human shields. And those of us who live near the Gaza Strip are definitely the biggest human shields.”

Raz remembers being almost alone in raising questions about the presence of the soldiers. “People were so happy, they were really proud of them. Each day after they came out of the Gaza Strip, in the [kibbutz] dining room, if it was lunch or dinner, there was food waiting for them,” he said. “They came into our houses and used our showers and relaxed there. People wrote letters to them after they left the kibbutz thanking them for risking their lives for us. Not only in the kibbutz but all over Israel they are seen as the most sacred thing. People treat them as angels, as people who put their own lives at risk so civilians can live at peace.”

Having already refused army service in defiance of his country’s militarist ethos, Raz turned solidly against the attack on Gaza. “Whenever there was a rocket alarm, all the people around me were shouting, Death to leftists! and Death to Arabs! And I just wanted to have a better life for everyone. I don’t want to be intimidated by the rockets but I also don’t want the people in Gaza to be bombed and massacred for no reason. I realized that this is the oppressed and the oppressor — it wasn’t self-defense.”

During the current assault on Gaza, Israeli forces have returned to the communities surrounding Gaza to bivouac and stage attacks. However, the fear of “terror tunnels” and rockets has led many of the local residents to flee, leaving virtual ghost towns in their wake.

In a recorded message broadcast on July 29 by al-Aqsa television, Izzedin al-Qassam Brigades general commander Mohammad Daif declared  [6] that Gaza fighters were exclusively targeting active duty Israeli military personnel and avoiding attacks on civilians. So far, the Qassam Brigades have killed 65 Israeli soldiers, two Israeli civilians, one Thai worker, and wounded a kibbutz owl.  [7]

[8]

See more stories tagged with:
Israel  [9],

gaza  [1

---

Source URL:  http://www.alternet.org/world/how-israel-used-its-own-civilians-human-shields-while-assaulting-gaza

Links:
[1] http://alternet.org
[2] http://www.alternet.org/authors/max-blumenthal
[3] http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.609096
[4] http://electronicintifada.net/conte...ts-surrounded-guns-israeli-universities/12215
[5] http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4554583,00.html
[6] http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/top-hamas-commander-we-only-target-israeli-soldiers-2080884287
[7] http://www.timesofisrael.com/owl-hurt-by-hamas-fire-recovering/
[8] mailto:[email protected]?Subject=Typo on How Israel Used Its Own Civilians as Human Shields While Assaulting Gaza
[9] http://www.alternet.org/tags/israel-gaza-conflict-casualties-timeline
[1 http://www.alternet.org/tags/gaza
[11] http://www.alternet.org/+new_src+

http://www.alternet.org/print/world...civilians-human-shields-while-assaulting-gaza 

 

[duba169]

That's a reach of epic proportions. Nice eye catching title though.

They must not be great at using them as human shields because the rockets are "harmless" according to most of this thread thanks to he iron dome

 

[leavemeglazzies]

 

[oneilmatt]

Rocket which was intercepted btw, now lets see which nursery school IDF plans on bombing as retaliation.

Who gives a * whether or not it was intercepted. "Oh he shot at me but he missed so im not gonna relatliate"

 

[taj gibson]

More like "oh he shot me, so let me retaliate by dropping rockets on his entire neighborhood and label the collateral damage as human shields"

 

[addy85]

 

This lady is so far from intelligent that I'm not even bothered by what she says. All that plastic surgery seems to have affected her brain.

 

[Animal Thug]

Joan Rivers has the typical mind state of a Zionist. That's exactly the same rationale that all Zionist have in regards to Palestinians.

 

[njcollector]

It's like you're constantly bullying the big ****** in the class, and then suddenly he raises his hand and knocks you out.


Oh but he is bigger than you. He shouldn't have hit you... Oh it was just small jokes.



Listen if you constantly barrage a country with rockets over spanning decade since the 1940s. Palestine lost the war, when you lose certain things are taken away or must be given up. Germany lost the war, it paid reperations and gave up land.


But if you constantly fire rockets at a country, what do you expect? Do you expect them to shrug it off? Oh they have the iron dome defense they should be fine... The cost of using the iron dome cripples the country with each defense.


Hamas does not fight under the Geneva convention. It does not wear it's military uniform when fighting. It fires rockets from established UN and press/hospital buildings.


USA has sent drones to exterminate Iraqis over the past decade and no one bats an eye. Then they're surprised to hear that the Iraqi people joined the Syrian rebels to make the IS. Oh where'd they come from? How are they 5-10k strong? What a mystery? Morons.


What Israel is doing is wrong, but for you hypocrites to suddenly now take a stand just because you're seeing video of it or because they are Jews , meanwhile a decade has passed of 1000s of Iraqi civilians died as you sit on your computer with indifference and now you take a stand, now let's fight against those Zionist pigs amirite guys? **** off.



Israel and the USA will suffer consequences with this coming generation of radicalized Palestinians/Iraqis/Afghans, who are just now coming of age, who remember seeing their family getting shot down.

Do not be surprised to see the IS gain more support when the USA kill civilians mothers fathers brothers and sisters like hunting buffalo on a train.

 

[useref15]

Very interesting....... From a Palestinian.

 

[goldenchild9]

No one has batted an eye against US murder in Iraq?

Anti-Iraq war protests were the biggest in history.

View media item 1123664
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US citizens seem to be a whole lot more self-critical than Israeli supporters.

If the big ****** starts bashing in the bully's brain and going Columbine on all of his friends, over being constantly teased, no one is going pat him on the back or defend his actions.

Stop doing the same for Israel.

 

[peteymcflight]

No one has batted an eye against US murder in Iraq?

Anti-Iraq war protests were the biggest in history.

View media item 1123664
View media item 1123665
View media item 1123666
View media item 1123667
View media item 1123668
US citizens seem to be a whole lot more self-critical than Israeli supporters.

If the big ****** starts bashing in the bully's brain and going Columbine on all of his friends, over being constantly teased, no one is going pat him on the back or defend his actions.

Stop doing the same for Israel.

Srsly

 

[peteymcflight]

USA has sent drones to exterminate Iraqis over the past decade and no one bats an eye. Then they're surprised to hear that the Iraqi people joined the Syrian rebels to make the IS. Oh where'd they come from? How are they 5-10k strong? What a mystery? Morons.


What Israel is doing is wrong, but for you hypocrites to suddenly now take a stand just because you're seeing video of it or because they are Jews , meanwhile a decade has passed of 1000s of Iraqi civilians died as you sit on your computer with indifference and now you take a stand, now let's fight against those Zionist pigs amirite guys? **** off.

wow you just took a whole group of people and said they are hypocrites for being indifferent towards the Iraq War. That's horse ****. Many people were very vocal about being against the Iraq War, myself included. Don't make stupid *** generalizations. It makes you look/sound like a simpleton.

 

[useref15]

Gaza Strip: Lies, Damned Lies and the Palestinian Civilian Death Toll Question


[quote name=url="/t/600484/palestinian-genocide-israeli-terrorism-awareness-thread/1350#post_21331713"]


Major news organisations including the BBC, the New York Times and al-Jazeera have admitted that the statistics used to portray the number of deaths in Gaza during the ongoing conflict may not be accurate.

An indepth analysis of the widely-used Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) figures found that statistics emerging from the region show a "disproportionate" number of civilian casualties.

Since the Israeli Defence Forces launched Operation Protective Edge against Hamas began in July, media sources worldwide have published a daily 'body count' detailing the rising death toll of civilians in the Gaza Strip.

The most recent report on August 6 claims 1,843 Palestinian civilians including a reported 415 children have died as a result of Israeli fire.


But the BBC's head of statistics, Anthony Reuben, has called for caution when dealing with Gaza death figures in an article on the BBC website, claiming there are "serious" problems with the broadly disseminated numbers.

Reuben says: "If the Israeli attacks have been 'indiscriminate,' as the UN Human Rights Council says, it's hard to work out why they have killed so many more civilian men than women.

The BBC analysis of the statistics found that "there were 216 members of armed groups killed, and another 725 men who were civilians. Among civilians, more than three times as many men were killed as women, while three times as many civilian men were killed as fighters."

The list of names and ages of the dead published by al-Jazeera also found men aged between 20 and 29 to be "significantly overrepresented".


All You Need to Know about Gaza in One Clear Animated MapIBTimes UK
The New York Times reached a similar conclusion in its analysis, stating: "The Times analysis, looking at 1,431 names, show that the population most likely to be militants, men aged 20-29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll."

The Israel Defence Forces (IDF) have previously condemned the OHCHR figures by claiming they are skewed to condemn Israeli military action and lend sympathy to Palestine.

The BBC spoke to IDF spokesman Captain Eytan Buchman who said: "The UN numbers being reported are, by and by large, based on the Gaza Health Ministry, a Hamas-run organisation."

IDF has published its own 'death toll' statistics, which says they have killed 253 Hamas operatives, 147 Islamic Jihad operatives, 65 "operatives of various organisations", and 603 "operatives whose affiliation is unknown".

Capt Buchman told the BBC that one reason for the discrepancy between the two sets of numbers is because "when militants are brought to hospitals, they are brought in civilian clothing, obscuring terrorist affiliations."

The Gaza Health Ministry denies these accusations and has condemned the "bloodshed" of Gaza civilians by Israel.

Both the BBC and the New York Times have come under fire for their reporting of the Israel Gaza conflict, which shows a "pro-Israeli bias", claims pro-Palestine campaigners such as the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC). The PSC co-ordinated a rally outside BBC headquarters in London in July to draw attention to its "one-sided coverage of Israel's assaults on Gaza".


[/quote]

 

[useref15]

Amazing that seemingly nobody here cares about this conflict anymore.

 

[addy85]

Amazing that seemingly nobody here cares about this conflict anymore.

It's the same argument over and over. What's the point?

 

[duba169]

The holiday activists moved on to Robin Williams and then the Missouri issue. They will be back once hamas doesn't get everything they want from peace talks and the issue gets hip again


As you can see by the length of the ISIS thread that issue isn't as trendy

The self hating Greenwald is impressing me with his determination by blaming israel for the kid that was killed in Missouri. Never quite understood how an openly gay man could be such supporter or hezbollah and hamas