Phil Jackson - OVERRATED

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Joined
Jul 4, 2006
Yeah I said it.


After watching this Laker team crumble before my very eyes this month, I can't help but to think, what did the coach do to allow this?  Whatever the reason for the sweep, I saw the Lakers break down mentally, emotionally, and even defensively.  I know this was his last season, but listening to him on the postgame interview, he sounded like he couldn't wait for the season to be over. 

So everyone is looking back at his career and all the championships.  No one can deny that, but look at the talent he's had in his career.  He had Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe in their PRIMES when he won those rings, and three of those four players are in the top ten best players ever.  He had Tex Winters, the guy who invented the triangle offense, next to him on the bench every year.  Matter of fact, he passed last year and Jackson went this year without Winters, and we see how the season went without him, God rest his soul.

Despite the HOF players on his roster, he has made some dumb decisions with the players he's had on his teams.  Remember when Scottie Pippen sat out the final play of the game vs. the Knicks because he ran  a play for Toni Kukoc?  Or how about his eye for hidden talent, guys like Smush Parker, Sasha Vujacic and Kwame Brown?  These are guys Phil himself vouched for.  Hell, he even called a guy from the NBDL for his playoff roster this year, Terrico Brown.  He's never really developed any players that weren't eventual Hall of Famers in his career.  Remember how Toni Kukoc was supposed to be the next great Euro player?  Or who can forget the Luke Walton project?  Hey, Phil drafted him so there must be some potential there!

This guy has openly thrown his players under the bus numerous times.  I don't see how a coach and a leader can talk down on HIS OWN PLAYERS to the media, and people can be cool about it.  I remember when Shaq and Kobe were going through it, Phil actually wrote a BOOK about how Kobe was a cancer to the team, and then tried to make amends after he rejoined the team in 2006.  His team totally broke down this year in the playoffs, and while no one is defending Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum for their actions, it's up to the coach to discipline his players, if the players act up, that's a bad look on the coach.

I wrote this post because while Phil Jackson is leaving, I see the Celtics re-signed Doc Rivers.  I think Doc Rivers is a helluva coach, and he has gotten the most out of his players, talent and effort-wise.  You see one of his proteges, Tom Thibodeau, on his way to the finals.  You even see Scott Brooks on the Thunder, Lionel Hollins almost make it to the West finals without their best player, and even Doug Collins, fresh off the broadcast booth, take a young team to the playoffs.  None of these teams coasted to the playoffs, no "switch" needed to be turned on, just hard nosed basketball, night in and night out.

So I say all that to say this:  Phil Jackson is overrated, and if he didn't take up teams with multiple Hall of Famers, I doubt he would have won a fraction of the rings he won.  What do you think?
 
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I agree that he's overrated, he's been in a lot of fortunate situations that have allowed him to win so many titles, as it's a player-driven league.
At the same time, he's good at managing superstar egos (from Shaq to Kobe) and getting a good amount from it, so that's where he's better than other coaches.
 
Laker fans still looking for a scapegoat to blame their season on.............
roll.gif
roll.gif
.  I love it!!
 
Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

What exactly are you saying? That a coach needs good players to win games? Oh ok.

Learn something new everyday.

Phil Jackson = GOAT imo.
 
Anytime someone makes a thread that says ______ is overrated, it doesnt end well.
 
Despite the HOF players on his roster, he has made some dumb decisions with the players he's had on his teams. Remember when Scottie Pippen sat out the final play of the game vs. the Knicks because he ran a play for Toni Kukoc? Or how about his eye for hidden talent, guys like Smush Parker, Sasha Vujacic and Kwame Brown? These are guys Phil himself vouched for. Hell, he even called a guy from the NBDL for his playoff roster this year, Terrico Brown. He's never really developed any players that weren't eventual Hall of Famers in his career. Remember how Toni Kukoc was supposed to be the next great Euro player? Or who can forget the Luke Walton project? Hey, Phil drafted him so there must be some potential there!


I agree w. this part. Phil would have been much more successful if he was a better talent evaluator. He could have done so much more.




but seriously....OP needs to do himself a favor and read this:

http://sports.espn.go.com...mons/110513&sportCat=nba
 
In order to win you need a good coach (with good coaching methods) & good players... Just because a coach has good players doesn't mean the team is going to be good. For example, Jackson had to convince Jordan to turn into a player that would share the ball & get others involved at the same time while being dominant. Just because he had good players doesn't mean he shouldn't get credit.
 
Originally Posted by illwill24

Yeah I said it.


After watching this Laker team crumble before my very eyes this month, I can't help but to think, what did the coach do to allow this?  Whatever the reason for the sweep, I saw the Lakers break down mentally, emotionally, and even defensively.  I know this was his last season, but listening to him on the postgame interview, he sounded like he couldn't wait for the season to be over. 

So everyone is looking back at his career and all the championships.  No one can deny that, but look at the talent he's had in his career.  He had Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe in their PRIMES when he won those rings, and three of those four players are in the top ten best players ever.  He had Tex Winters, the guy who invented the triangle offense, next to him on the bench every year.  Matter of fact, he passed last year and Jackson went this year without Winters, and we see how the season went without him, God rest his soul.

Despite the HOF players on his roster, he has made some dumb decisions with the players he's had on his teams.  Remember when Scottie Pippen sat out the final play of the game vs. the Knicks because he ran  a play for Toni Kukoc?  Or how about his eye for hidden talent, guys like Smush Parker, Sasha Vujacic and Kwame Brown?  These are guys Phil himself vouched for.  Hell, he even called a guy from the NBDL for his playoff roster this year, Terrico Brown.  He's never really developed any players that weren't eventual Hall of Famers in his career.  Remember how Toni Kukoc was supposed to be the next great Euro player?  Or who can forget the Luke Walton project?  Hey, Phil drafted him so there must be some potential there!

This guy has openly thrown his players under the bus numerous times.  I don't see how a coach and a leader can talk down on HIS OWN PLAYERS to the media, and people can be cool about it.  I remember when Shaq and Kobe were going through it, Phil actually wrote a BOOK about how Kobe was a cancer to the team, and then tried to make amends after he rejoined the team in 2006.  His team totally broke down this year in the playoffs, and while no one is defending Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum for their actions, it's up to the coach to discipline his players, if the players act up, that's a bad look on the coach.

I wrote this post because while Phil Jackson is leaving, I see the Celtics re-signed Doc Rivers.  I think Doc Rivers is a helluva coach, and he has gotten the most out of his players, talent and effort-wise.  You see one of his proteges, Tom Thibodeau, on his way to the finals.  You even see Scott Brooks on the Thunder, Lionel Hollins almost make it to the West finals without their best player, and even Doug Collins, fresh off the broadcast booth, take a young team to the playoffs.  None of these teams coasted to the playoffs, no "switch" needed to be turned on, just hard nosed basketball, night in and night out.

So I say all that to say this:  Phil Jackson is overrated, and if he didn't take up teams with multiple Hall of Famers, I doubt he would have won a fraction of the rings he won.  What do you think?
 
Phil is not the gm, he doesn't draft players...and from what I've read he doesn't have a very good relationship with the Buss family so I doubt that he has much clout in any decision making processes. Oh, and Scottie refused to enter the game so I don't see how you can knock Phil for that.
 
Idiot just wasted 15 mins writing this %#%+@#+@. Let the man retire in peace he didnt won 11 rings for nothin
 
Originally Posted by illwill24

Yeah I said it.


After watching this Laker team crumble before my very eyes this month, I can't help but to think, what did the coach do to allow this?  Whatever the reason for the sweep, I saw the Lakers break down mentally, emotionally, and even defensively.  I know this was his last season, but listening to him on the postgame interview, he sounded like he couldn't wait for the season to be over. 

So everyone is looking back at his career and all the championships.  No one can deny that, but look at the talent he's had in his career.  He had Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe in their PRIMES when he won those rings, and three of those four players are in the top ten best players ever.  He had Tex Winters, the guy who invented the triangle offense, next to him on the bench every year.  Matter of fact, he passed last year and Jackson went this year without Winters, and we see how the season went without him, God rest his soul.

Despite the HOF players on his roster, he has made some dumb decisions with the players he's had on his teams.  Remember when Scottie Pippen sat out the final play of the game vs. the Knicks because he ran  a play for Toni Kukoc?  Or how about his eye for hidden talent, guys like Smush Parker, Sasha Vujacic and Kwame Brown?  These are guys Phil himself vouched for.  Hell, he even called a guy from the NBDL for his playoff roster this year, Terrico Brown.  He's never really developed any players that weren't eventual Hall of Famers in his career.  Remember how Toni Kukoc was supposed to be the next great Euro player?  Or who can forget the Luke Walton project?  Hey, Phil drafted him so there must be some potential there!

This guy has openly thrown his players under the bus numerous times.  I don't see how a coach and a leader can talk down on HIS OWN PLAYERS to the media, and people can be cool about it.  I remember when Shaq and Kobe were going through it, Phil actually wrote a BOOK about how Kobe was a cancer to the team, and then tried to make amends after he rejoined the team in 2006.  His team totally broke down this year in the playoffs, and while no one is defending Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum for their actions, it's up to the coach to discipline his players, if the players act up, that's a bad look on the coach.

I wrote this post because while Phil Jackson is leaving, I see the Celtics re-signed Doc Rivers.  I think Doc Rivers is a helluva coach, and he has gotten the most out of his players, talent and effort-wise.  You see one of his proteges, Tom Thibodeau, on his way to the finals.  You even see Scott Brooks on the Thunder, Lionel Hollins almost make it to the West finals without their best player, and even Doug Collins, fresh off the broadcast booth, take a young team to the playoffs.  None of these teams coasted to the playoffs, no "switch" needed to be turned on, just hard nosed basketball, night in and night out.

So I say all that to say this:  Phil Jackson is overrated, and if he didn't take up teams with multiple Hall of Famers, I doubt he would have won a fraction of the rings he won.  What do you think?


NT would be a better place if you weren't in it. 
 
Originally Posted by illwill24

Yeah I said it.


After watching this Laker team crumble before my very eyes this month, I can't help but to think, what did the coach do to allow this?  Whatever the reason for the sweep, I saw the Lakers break down mentally, emotionally, and even defensively.  I know this was his last season, but listening to him on the postgame interview, he sounded like he couldn't wait for the season to be over. 

So everyone is looking back at his career and all the championships.  No one can deny that, but look at the talent he's had in his career.  He had Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe in their PRIMES when he won those rings, and three of those four players are in the top ten best players ever.  He had Tex Winters, the guy who invented the triangle offense, next to him on the bench every year.  Matter of fact, he passed last year and Jackson went this year without Winters, and we see how the season went without him, God rest his soul.

Despite the HOF players on his roster, he has made some dumb decisions with the players he's had on his teams.  Remember when Scottie Pippen sat out the final play of the game vs. the Knicks because he ran  a play for Toni Kukoc?  Or how about his eye for hidden talent, guys like Smush Parker, Sasha Vujacic and Kwame Brown?  These are guys Phil himself vouched for.  Hell, he even called a guy from the NBDL for his playoff roster this year, Terrico Brown.  He's never really developed any players that weren't eventual Hall of Famers in his career.  Remember how Toni Kukoc was supposed to be the next great Euro player?  Or who can forget the Luke Walton project?  Hey, Phil drafted him so there must be some potential there!

This guy has openly thrown his players under the bus numerous times.  I don't see how a coach and a leader can talk down on HIS OWN PLAYERS to the media, and people can be cool about it.  I remember when Shaq and Kobe were going through it, Phil actually wrote a BOOK about how Kobe was a cancer to the team, and then tried to make amends after he rejoined the team in 2006.  His team totally broke down this year in the playoffs, and while no one is defending Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum for their actions, it's up to the coach to discipline his players, if the players act up, that's a bad look on the coach.

I wrote this post because while Phil Jackson is leaving, I see the Celtics re-signed Doc Rivers.  I think Doc Rivers is a helluva coach, and he has gotten the most out of his players, talent and effort-wise.  You see one of his proteges, Tom Thibodeau, on his way to the finals.  You even see Scott Brooks on the Thunder, Lionel Hollins almost make it to the West finals without their best player, and even Doug Collins, fresh off the broadcast booth, take a young team to the playoffs.  None of these teams coasted to the playoffs, no "switch" needed to be turned on, just hard nosed basketball, night in and night out.

So I say all that to say this:  Phil Jackson is overrated, and if he didn't take up teams with multiple Hall of Famers, I doubt he would have won a fraction of the rings he won.  What do you think?
Toni Kukoc
Thats where I stopped believing you had any knowledge of Phil Jackson.
Lets get something straight. Jerry Krause was the guy who signed Tony, hyped him up and forced Jackson to play him initally.
Krause thought he could have been a great player. Turns out he was 25 had never adapted to the NBA game, and by the time he did the athletic ability that would have made him a star had faded. Still he was a solid glue guy..... In the locker room and front office however everyone except Jerry Krause at minimum thought he was raw. Add this to the inflamitory relationship between Krause and Jordan, eventually Krause and Pippen and its a wonder why the Bulls were able to comeback after the first title.
Krause thought that Tony would be better than Pip, and would fill the void left by Jordan and openly stated this.
That put off Phil, who thought Tony was what he was.... a 6th man. Pippen who was pissed that Tony was making more than he was , and was now about to take the last shot. Scottie and Scottie alone made the decision to not go into the game. The bottom line is that the shot was made and the Bulls won the game. Do I feel for Scottie in that situation on a personal level? Yup, but that doesnt excuse that that was not a professional move. IMO this saga is null and void because when Money got back they went out and won 3 more titles.
As far as Kobe.... I fully believe Phil thought he would never coach again when he wrote the book, It actually became a blessing in descuise as it forced Kobe to make an attempt at conflict resolution 2 titles later it worked.
As for his endoursement of guys like Smush Parker, Sasha Vujacic and Kwame Brown.
Phil has always had a facination with bigger PG's. Derrick Fisher had to EARN Phil's respect the early part was a love hate relationship as Phil tried bringing in Brian Shaw, Ron Harper etc early in their relationship.
That to an extent is the reason for his facination with Smush.
Everyone knows Smush has talent but he couldnt get along with Kobe. Truth is he was more productive than Fisher has ever been ( sans his one year in GS as the sixth man)
And the thing was that he was 25.....
Sasha is one of the main reasons the Lakers made the finals in 2008. He was playing for a contract, and knew he didnt want to go back to Europe or Asia to play. He does have good talent though.
Kwame actually played well against the Suns in 2006, why he fell off the face of the earth as even a solid offensive guy I will never really know. But Phil is and was egotistical enough to believe that he could make Kwame focus...
Luke Walton is unfourtinuatly built like his dad and cannot stay healthy. They game him that MLE because they felt that his spacing and improving 3pt shooting would be very solid for the team in the future.
Did teams with Phil as coach take personel risk? Sure, but to say that he underdeveloped guys is false.
The whole reason we can mention Fisher as clutch is cause of Phil. Kukoc made a good portion of big shots for the Bulls. He resurected Ron Harper's career. And he kept guys like John Paxton, Steve Kerr and Robert Horry motivated and confidant enough to be able to play at most 20 minutes and hit clutch shots.
He might be overrated, but this season which he didnt want to come back for was an fluke for a Phil Jackson coached team. He checked out at the end of the regular season.
Last year the Lakers as currently constructed would be in the West finals. This year? If the players dont give a damn I dont. 


Double J's He had little control of the Roster in Chicago.
Between Michael always threatning to retire, Jerry Krause's inflamitory relationships with all the stars, plus the fact that the Bulls of that era were always in win now mode and its hard to take risk.
 In Chicago Phil always had to make the most of a bad situation.
The First LA title teams. He didnt have much control here. He could pick his role players but this team could not be changed more than it was.
Maybe you keep Eddie Jones instead of Rice. I would have, but the want for a shooter was not a bad idea. Having 3 guys who need plays run for them and have had allstar level success is.
He wanted Kobe for Kidd and Marion. That could have worked, if the Eddie Jones deal isnt done. Kidd, Jones Marion and Shaq imo win the 3 titles Kobe and Shaq won...
But there was no real reward in making that trade either....
Devan George was a solid contributor who got second and third NBA contracts because Phil knew how to use him.

In LA Phil asserted control of the second Lakers tenure teams from day 1 but he still couldnt control Kobe. Dont get me wrong Kobe didnt do much actually wrong, but its little things like it coming out mid season that Ron wants to be traded cause the only thing he and Kobe can agree on is that they want to win.Undermining the Smush Parker experiment which went well until Kobe threw him under the bus. That %@@@ dont work. Caron was a bad trade. the worst of his career. But all the big men the Lakers had were stiffs.and Kwame looked like he was ready to break out in the season before he got hurt. I think that simply testing the FA market wasnt a bad idea for him either bottom line is his welcome in washington was gone, but he still had a bunch of talent where as Caron was the second choice to Wade when trading Shaq.  Still if your worst 2 trades under your watch  involve #3 guys you aint doing bad.
In this era they were cash strapped even though they were not a great team. Between Kobe, Lamar and Kwame they were making at least the salary cap at that time. So yea Kwame was a mistake, but its not like they had many trading pieces.

The only issue I have with the Lakers the past 4 years is that Bynum and Gasol were never dominant scorers.... And they both have the skill.

Picking at the end of the first round year after year didnt help.
 
illwill24 wrote:
Yeah I said it.


After watching this Laker team crumble before my very eyes this month, I can't help but to think, what did the coach do to allow this?  Whatever the reason for the sweep, I saw the Lakers break down mentally, emotionally, and even defensively.  I know this was his last season, but listening to him on the postgame interview, he sounded like he couldn't wait for the season to be over. 

So everyone is looking back at his career and all the championships.  No one can deny that, but look at the talent he's had in his career.  He had Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe in their PRIMES when he won those rings, and three of those four players are in the top ten best players ever.  He had Tex Winters, the guy who invented the triangle offense, next to him on the bench every year.  Matter of fact, he passed last year and Jackson went this year without Winters, and we see how the season went without him, God rest his soul.

Despite the HOF players on his roster, he has made some dumb decisions with the players he's had on his teams.  Remember when Scottie Pippen sat out the final play of the game vs. the Knicks because he ran  a play for Toni Kukoc?  Or how about his eye for hidden talent, guys like Smush Parker, Sasha Vujacic and Kwame Brown?  These are guys Phil himself vouched for.  Hell, he even called a guy from the NBDL for his playoff roster this year, Terrico Brown.  He's never really developed any players that weren't eventual Hall of Famers in his career.  Remember how Toni Kukoc was supposed to be the next great Euro player?  Or who can forget the Luke Walton project?  Hey, Phil drafted him so there must be some potential there!

This guy has openly thrown his players under the bus numerous times.  I don't see how a coach and a leader can talk down on HIS OWN PLAYERS to the media, and people can be cool about it.  I remember when Shaq and Kobe were going through it, Phil actually wrote a BOOK about how Kobe was a cancer to the team, and then tried to make amends after he rejoined the team in 2006.  His team totally broke down this year in the playoffs, and while no one is defending Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum for their actions, it's up to the coach to discipline his players, if the players act up, that's a bad look on the coach.

I wrote this post because while Phil Jackson is leaving, I see the Celtics re-signed Doc Rivers.  I think Doc Rivers is a helluva coach, and he has gotten the most out of his players, talent and effort-wise.  You see one of his proteges, Tom Thibodeau, on his way to the finals.  You even see Scott Brooks on the Thunder, Lionel Hollins almost make it to the West finals without their best player, and even Doug Collins, fresh off the broadcast booth, take a young team to the playoffs.  None of these teams coasted to the playoffs, no "switch" needed to be turned on, just hard nosed basketball, night in and night out.

So I say all that to say this:  Phil Jackson is overrated, and if he didn't take up teams with multiple Hall of Famers, I doubt he would have won a fraction of the rings he won.  What do you think?

indifferent.gif
 
I feel that he's overrated in the sense that some people are calling him the greatest coach in sports history just cause he's retiring 
indifferent.gif
.

When it comes down to it,he's in the upper echelon of Basketball coaches with Red Auerbach
 
johnny bach doesn't think so...


So my dad and I had dinner last night with former Bulls assistant coach Johnny Bach.  86 years old.  Sharp as a nail. Definitely one of the coolest experiences.  This guy’s knowledge about basketball and everything else is insane. Completely old school.  So instead of trying to remember stories to tell all of you, I figured I’d put it in an email – that way not to forget and get into very good detail. 

Johnny Bach personal file – Has been married 3 times.  He has 5 sons with his first wife.  Once the kids were all out of the house they didn’t get along.  He was married to a flight attendant for a short time but then realized all he was doing was taking care of her kids while she was flying around the world.  That ended quickly.  Now, he is married to a woman 31 years younger.  She is the top medical malpractice lawyer for Clifford, a top Law firm in Chicago.  Both divorces took him for pretty much all he was worth.  Needless to say, big Lar picked up the tab. 

He was in the navy and served with many Marines in WW2.  He had a twin brother that was killed at age 19 in the war…lost at sea.  Loved that big Lar was a marine.  Lots of crazy stories about that.  He coached with or against just about every legend in coaching history.  He got out of the college game because he hated the blatant cheating that went on.  Frank Maquire even told him one time he would never accept a job unless he knew he had $200,000 in cash for him to available at all times. 

He grew up in Brooklyn, playing against the Brooklyn Rens while growing up.  An all black team from Harlem.  He was one of the only white guys that would play against them.  Kareem Abdul Jabbar is writing a book on the Rens.  Johnny had a picture of the team that Kareem did not have.  Kareem really appreciated this and has become great friends with Johnny, even though he wouldn’t give Johnny the time of day when Johnny tried to recruit him to Fordham vs. UCLA.  He also now paints in his spare time and is evidently very good.  He paints pictures for fallen marines’ families at the request of a medal of honor winner that he is friends with. 

Here’s some Johnny Bach stories: He coached with the Bulls for the first three titles before he had a disagreement.   After the third championship the Bulls had one more season in the Stadium before moving to the UC.  Krause told Johnny, Tex, and Jim Clemons that the three of them would all get extensions before the team went to the new stadium for the 94-95 season.  After the Bulls lost to the Knicks in 94, the Hue Hollins game as Johnny referred to it.  There was a meeting 10 days after the season.  All the coaches and management were in the room.  Krause wanted to trade Scottie Pippen.  He said he quit on the team and they didn’t want him around anymore.  Johnny was the supreme voice against trading Scottie.  He said he made a mistake, we all make mistakes.  Krause wanted to put it to a vote – trading Pippen.  Johnny called out everyone in the room saying, “if this needs to be put to a vote you’re all idiots.
 
Originally Posted by illwill24

So I say all that to say this:  Phil Jackson is overrated, and if he didn't take up teams with multiple Hall of Famers, I doubt he would have won a fraction of the rings he won.  What do you think?
  
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