QB THREAD - 2x quarterbacky award winner: Lamar Jackson

[IATT]

You prefer to listen to Philly guys "breakdown" info for you?

I prefer national folks who focus on all. I don't want homer information.

And PFF isn't 1-2 guys doin all the games, they have diff folks covering each one. Unless they're lying to us.

Doesn't NBC use PFF in their broadcasts now?

I have zero clue where they are from.. but their assignments are specifically the eagles

As I've mentioned numerous times, a lot of the national guys give themselves away when talking personnel.. I won't pretend to know more than them league wide.. but I don't care about the whole league, certain games I'm only watching if a commercial comes on and that is the only game going

I watch every single eagles games.. I read a ton of information on the eagles.. I listen to stuff specifically on the eagles

I only played high school football, but that made me appreciate how much depth is there on a single play.. and what we were asked to do in film study, at that level

Sheil kapadia, for example covered the eagles and then went and covered the Seahawks for espn.. and now is back covering the eagles for the Atlantic

 

[IATT]

And I didn't think wentz deserved to be oroy of the year or anything..

And as mentioned above I don't think wentz is currently the MVP either.. although I think brady is stat stuffing, but I'd still have him 2nd with wentz a close 3rd



But I did think Zeke and Jordan Howard deserved to be voted over dak for oroy

 

[IATT]

C CP1708 since you mentioned drops for a rookie QB:
http://www.phillyvoice.com/tally-eagles-drops-2016/

 

[CP1708]

I have zero clue where they are from.. but their assignments are specifically the eagles

As I've mentioned numerous times, a lot of the national guys give themselves away when talking personnel.. I won't pretend to know more than them league wide.. but I don't care about the whole league, certain games I'm only watching if a commercial comes on and that is the only game going

I watch every single eagles games.. I read a ton of information on the eagles.. I listen to stuff specifically on the eagles

I only played high school football, but that made me appreciate how much depth is there on a single play.. and what we were asked to do in film study, at that level

Sheil kapadia, for example covered the eagles and then went and covered the Seahawks for espn.. and now is back covering the eagles for the Atlantic

We're basically the opposite. I want league wide focus, not Omar Kelly types. I want guys who follow everyone in the league and have insights on all moving parts, coaches, players, GM's etc.

Obviously they won't have every detail, but they all have connections and sources that help fill gaps.

I certainly get Miami info from people I need (especially in Oregon) but I don't use them as league wide basis or anything, just tell me who's injured, who's bein signed, etc. I don't need them breaking down film (Omar )

 

[IATT]

We're basically the opposite. I want league wide focus, not Omar Kelly types. I want guys who follow everyone in the league and have insights on all moving parts, coaches, players, GM's etc.

Obviously they won't have every detail, but they all have connections and sources that help fill gaps.

I certainly get Miami info from people I need (especially in Oregon) but I don't use them as league wide basis or anything, just tell me who's injured, who's bein signed, etc. I don't need them breaking down film (Omar )

I don't know Omar.. won't pretend to

But someone being a local guy doesn't make them quality, see Howard eskin.. for a Philadelphia related example

I listen and follow national guys, but I don't take what the say as the gospel.. and usually they will say something that becomes the narrative because it gets repeated repeatedly

Like with our OlIne last season, everything was eagles record without lane Johnson.. when anyone who watched the team knew the primary backup was a 5th round project rookie, who got hurt.. then the backup to him was the LG, who also got hurt.. then we went to the other tackle on the roster, who got hurt.. so again we went to the backup backup LG, who got hurt.. then we had to bring guys in off the street because we had gone through every single Olineman on the roster.. between 2 spots on the line we started 8 different guys.. teams carry between 8-10 olineman




But generally speaking, on most subject matters there are very shallow and very deep conversations to be had on most subject matters

 

[stillin729]

I mean we were told over and over again how stupid the Rams and Eagles were to make those trades...

That’s all I have to say

 

[Chester McFloppy]

Is Russell Wilson an MVP candidate when the combined records of the teams the Seahawks have beaten are 23-42? Or 24-52 if you add the 49ers a second time?

Bump

 

[CP1708]

Nick Foles over Matt Ryan.
Blake Bortles over Big Ben.
Case Keenum over Drew Brees.


All you need is QB.

Tom Brady staring down #6 vs Mariota, Bortles, and either Foles or Keenum.

 

[DeadsetAce]

Nick Foles over Matt Ryan.
Blake Bortles over Big Ben.
Case Keenum over Drew Brees.


All you need is QB.

Tom Brady staring down #6 vs Mariota, Bortles, and either Foles or Keenum.

shouldn't be a stoneface given the first part of your post, right?

 

[IATT]

Nick Foles over Matt Ryan.
Blake Bortles over Big Ben.
Case Keenum over Drew Brees.


All you need is QB.

Tom Brady staring down #6 vs Mariota, Bortles, and either Foles or Keenum.

Would be kinda of nice to have our qb.. I mean we were the no. 1 offense in the league until

And also easily the best 3rd down team.. as well as, I think, the most efficient team in the red zone

We've been bottom 3rd of the league in all 3 with foles

 

[MambaMentality824]

Nick Foles over Matt Ryan.
Blake Bortles over Big Ben.
Case Keenum over Drew Brees.


All you need is QB.

Tom Brady staring down #6 vs Mariota, Bortles, and either Foles or Keenum.

This year has been that way, lets not act like the AFC SB representative hasn't been Manning, Ben, or Brady this whole damn century so far though basically outside a couple outlier years. Even in the NFC its been the likes of Wilson, Newton, Ryan, Eli, Brees, Rodgers etc. Some of those guys arent HOF types but still among the top 10 QBs in the league. Defense has been very prevalent this year and its great to see but I mean it still might end up with Brady coming out on top again. Even the Eagles, if we started out with Foles all year instead of Wentz there isnt a chance we are in this position. Getting a stable, franchise QB is still the best way to be a consistent contender clearly, although obviously this year has proven there are other ways to do it as well.

 

[IATT]

I mean other teams have won without QBs.. not literally.. but talking Trent differ with Ravens or brad Johnson with bucs or those skins championship teams

But for long haul stability and being a consistent threat over the course of a single player's career.. franchise qb is a must

You're buying yourself a 10-15 year "window" if you find "the guy".. not sure what other position gives you that sort of return upon investment

I mean Browns had an all time great LT and his career has been pretty much wasted.. willie roaf is another one


Upsets happen simply by the nature of the sport, it's a single game elimination.. 1 bad game and your out

That 76ers/lakers finals with iverson vs Kobe and Shaq is the perfect example.. lakers were clearly the better team, but sixers "stole" that first 1.. lakers proceeded to win the next 4 games and the championship the next year

 

[CP1708]

This year has been that way, lets not act like the AFC SB representative hasn't been Manning, Ben, or Brady this whole damn century so far though basically outside a couple outlier years. Even in the NFC its been the likes of Wilson, Newton, Ryan, Eli, Brees, Rodgers etc. Some of those guys arent HOF types but still among the top 10 QBs in the league. Defense has been very prevalent this year and its great to see but I mean it still might end up with Brady coming out on top again. Even the Eagles, if we started out with Foles all year instead of Wentz there isnt a chance we are in this position. Getting a stable, franchise QB is still the best way to be a consistent contender clearly, although obviously this year has proven there are other ways to do it as well.

Indeed.

We just saw Peyton who couldn't throw a spiral win with the best defense you could have.

We saw baby Russ throw 9 completions in games, and beat Drew Brees with maybe the greatest defense we ever saw.

We saw baby Ben and Brady win for years throwin 15 times a game and running the ball + defense over and over.

Flacco + Defense. Eli twice + defense (and miracles)

Robo-QB Rodgers, Robo-QB Peyton, Robo-QB Brees, even Robo-QB Brady won 1 SB each between all of them as elite, throw every down guys. Brady last year won......with the leagues #1 scoring defense, and no Gronk.

Again tho, we all just throw the words "franchise" and "Quarterback" together, and leave it simplified that way.

Peyton was an ELITE QB for like 15 years. He won 1 SB. He was a trash QB for 2 years, and won the same 1 SB.

Elway was elite forever, didn't win **** til Terrell Davis started destroying teams.

Nothing will change, no one is going to believe me or take notice, they'll just stick with the easy narrative, oh, QB's win it all, get a franchise QB and win forever, only........that's not how it's really happening. It's just how the story gets told, after the fact. Look at what you just said, referencing Russ, Brady, Ben, etc, completely ignoring their wins as rookies and second year guys, when they did little more than hand off and THEN they grew into actual franchise QB's.

And if Brady wins #6, the narrative will carry on, and even if he loses, people will shrug it off as an anomaly. Narrative will never die. Despite me pointing out the billion flaws within it.

 

[IATT]

Again tho, we all just throw the words "franchise" and "Quarterback" together, and leave it simplified that way.

No, "we" don't

Peyton was an ELITE QB for like 15 years. He won 1 SB. He was a trash QB for 2 years, and won the same 1 SB.

Elway was elite forever, didn't win **** til Terrell Davis started destroying teams.

Peyton had the colts in the playoffs pretty every year and a top seed pretty much every year too.. he was a major part of putting that franchise in a position to have an opportunity to win a SB

Elway had his teams regularly in the playoffs and off the top of my head took that team to 3 SBs before Davis got there

QBs aren't the end all be all.. but having a good one goes a long way in the sport

 

[a55a5in11]

I still don't understand this argument. This all goes back to you saying QB isn't the most important position in all of sports. You keep bringing up defense, but defense isn't a single position

 

[CP1708]

I still don't understand this argument. This all goes back to you saying QB isn't the most important position in all of sports. You keep bringing up defense, but defense isn't a single position

I'm honestly wondering if that is indeed why QB gets singled out. Maybe cuz it's easier to say we have one great player (position) than all SB teams need a great OL (5 positions) or a great front 7, or great defense (usually go hand in hand but some teams have great front 7's and poor secondary's I suppose)

I even thought about Running back, and then thought naw, run GAME, as in some teams that have 1-2 even a 3rd useful/dynamic backfield. Think of the Bucs with Dunn and Alstott. Or the old Giants duo that was Barker and Jacobs. Even New England last year when they had Blount, Lewis and White. That's not a great running back, it's a great run game.

So maybe it's just simpler for people to say a QB is what you need to be competitive, even tho it's clearly more than that, A LOT more than that. But nobody can really go in depth and break down teams/leagues/seasons, so they just over simplify it.

Iono, maybe that is the reasoning, be it consciously, or subconsciously.

 

[IATT]

pats are probably easily the favorite to win the SB this year (Vegas has them favored in every possible matchup and vs the jags)..

remove tom brady from the equation.. if we're ranking rosters, the pats are probably 4th of the 4 remaining teams

 

[MambaMentality824]

Indeed.

We just saw Peyton who couldn't throw a spiral win with the best defense you could have.

We saw baby Russ throw 9 completions in games, and beat Drew Brees with maybe the greatest defense we ever saw.

We saw baby Ben and Brady win for years throwin 15 times a game and running the ball + defense over and over.

Flacco + Defense. Eli twice + defense (and miracles)

Robo-QB Rodgers, Robo-QB Peyton, Robo-QB Brees, even Robo-QB Brady won 1 SB each between all of them as elite, throw every down guys. Brady last year won......with the leagues #1 scoring defense, and no Gronk.

Again tho, we all just throw the words "franchise" and "Quarterback" together, and leave it simplified that way.

Peyton was an ELITE QB for like 15 years. He won 1 SB. He was a trash QB for 2 years, and won the same 1 SB.

Elway was elite forever, didn't win **** til Terrell Davis started destroying teams.

Nothing will change, no one is going to believe me or take notice, they'll just stick with the easy narrative, oh, QB's win it all, get a franchise QB and win forever, only........that's not how it's really happening. It's just how the story gets told, after the fact. Look at what you just said, referencing Russ, Brady, Ben, etc, completely ignoring their wins as rookies and second year guys, when they did little more than hand off and THEN they grew into actual franchise QB's.

And if Brady wins #6, the narrative will carry on, and even if he loses, people will shrug it off as an anomaly. Narrative will never die. Despite me pointing out the billion flaws within it.

I hear you argument brother, trust me I do. What youre saying truly dawned on me after broken down Manning did it. But, I'm not arguing that "franchise QB = automatic SB" like you are referencing. Obviously its been proven over and over you need much more than that for the most part, HOWEVER my argument is simply that teams that have that stable upper levels guys simply are in a WAY better position to go get that ring compared to the rest of the league.

Like IATT said, its more about giving yourself that 10-15 year window more than anything else, what these organizations do with that window depends on the extraneous factors like how the rest of the roster is built. Some organizations have been proven to be wayyy better at that part than others. QB is literally the only singular position which can give a team that window. You mention defense and running games, a full defense is 11 guys and even running game, you need the RBs and a damn good OL in front of you to get a dominant running game.

I hear your argument about Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Ben winning their SBs when they weren't at their peak and that definitely has a lot of credence. But at the same token, think about how much roster turnover those franchises have had over their respective tenures. Essentially, the team around them changed MUlTIPLE times, throughout the years new faces brought in at every single position but the one constant that remained was them holding down that QB spot. It is the only position you can singularly build around if the guy you have is a big time player, and that is my only point.

Obviously like you're saying, anyone who argues that it doesn't take much more than simply having the "franchise QB" to succeed would obviously be wrong. Only point is its by far the best starting point.

 

[DeadsetAce]

it's nice not having to worry about the position. i'll say that much.

but at the end of the day, the team needs to be complete, or at least 75% complete

 

[MambaMentality824]

it's nice not having to worry about the position. i'll say that much.

but at the end of the day, the team needs to be complete, or at least 75% complete

Man Brady dont even count his greatness is just a complete outlier. Stupid what that guy has done for damn near 20 years and is still going at age 40

You lucky bastard

 

[CP1708]

My own personal spreadsheet I work with every year, we're basically down to just Brady at this point, Ben and Brees are updated, but Tom is going to put numbers up so high, they will never be reached again, zero doubt in my mind. Especially if he does in fact play 2-3 more years, and say just 5 total playoff games left in his career, he's still just adding on top.

One QB I'm thinking about adding is Matt Ryan, he has 10 career playoff games, he might as well be on this list, and I should just remove Romo since he likely won't be adding to his resume now.

 

[MambaMentality824]

My own personal spreadsheet I work with every year, we're basically down to just Brady at this point, Ben and Brees are updated, but Tom is going to put numbers up so high, they will never be reached again, zero doubt in my mind. Especially if he does in fact play 2-3 more years, and say just 5 total playoff games left in his career, he's still just adding on top.

One QB I'm thinking about adding is Matt Ryan, he has 10 career playoff games, he might as well be on this list, and I should just remove Romo since he likely won't be adding to his resume now.

Mannn those stats are no doubt crazy but the most mind boggling statistic to me is just the sheer amount of games hes played. Possibly 37 after this year, more than 2 seasons worth of playoff games alone

 

[CP1708]

Lookin forward to his work and how much detail he puts into these.

 

[IATT]

C CP1708 further to the point I've made numerous times about national guys..

Look at the number for guys talking about what the eagles are going to do with nick foles next year.. discussing if we're going pay him AND more importantly if we can afford him

Problem with that, dude is under contract.. and a very favorable one for the eagles to pull a trade





But as I said before with your boy cian, any time he mentioned our Oline I knew he was full of crap.. our Oline was a mess early until we swapped out our LG (which allowed us to do a ton with Kelce and peters on the 2nd level), plus we had couple injuries forcing us to do some things (our replacement for peters, big v, has been solid enough when that better LG, wiz, is in BUT when he is out things have gone back to being a mess because multiple guys have to adjust).. but my main point is, that is a nuanced point as wayyy too many things are that get discussed on a superficial level because not enough people care/know enough to appreciate/want/consume



Take this for example



It's a minor point, but we didn't trade a pick for just Jernigan.. we traded our 3rd to the Ravens for jernigan AND their 3rd.. considering a 3rd round pick is about to be OROY, seems like a pretty significant thing to mention

Then he goes on to make a point about Patrick Robinson being our best CB.. he has been great for us, but we use him overwhelmingly in the slot.. he is very good in that role.. doesn't make him our best CB

 

[CP1708]

Nick Foles, Super Bowl MVP.

100+ rating in every playoff game.

He couldn't get a first down with the Rams.

Same QB, different group around him.